Patong mayor’s resort targeted for land encroachment

[webfact]

Patong mayor’s resort targeted for land encroachment
Phuket Gazette


Officers reviewed the land document for the site of Patong Bay Garden Resort, but were unable to conclude whether or not the hotel encroached onto the beach. Photo: Kritsada Mueanhawong

PHUKET: -- The government’s self-branded “anti-mafia” campaign continued yesterday as Tourism and Sports Minister Somsak Pureesrisak led local officers to inspect the Patong Bay Garden Resort on Patong Beach for suspected encroachment onto public land.

The resort, owned by Patong Mayor Pian Keesin and his son Prab, was the only resort along Patong Beach that was inspected yesterday.

However, the raid yielded no results, despite officers being armed with a land document for the site.

“We cannot say whether or not the hotel has encroached onto public land since the documents we have are not clear enough,” Minister Somsak said.

“We can take no further action today as the intended target has been tipped off and is not present to be questioned,” he added.

Mr Somsak told the press he was merely following up on his complaint filed with the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) in Bangkok on July 10.

“I also came to follow up on mafia operating in Phuket as I have received expressions of concern from many ambassadors about tourists being threatened, attacked, assaulted and overcharged by local taxis,” he said.

“I wanted to talked with the person who has been called ‘mafia’. I wanted to ask why people with such power do not use their influence to control people to do the right thing.

“When such people have the power to do illegal things, all the people under their control are willing to break the law, and this is despite Phuket having beautiful beaches that should be the place of polite people.

“I want such people to help improve Phuket,” Mr Somsak said.

The minister was oblique in naming his intended “target”, despite having stood beside DSI Chief Tarit Pengdith on August 9 when the leading law-enforcement officer named Pian Keesin and his son Prab as “mafia” figures under DSI investigation (story here).

Mr Pian has been suspended from active duty as Patong Mayor while he fights allegations of vote fraud in last year’s Patong mayoral election (story here).

Meanwhile, Mr Prab has been vocal in his opinion of the current DSI campaign to “clean up Phuket”, calling on the DSI to tackle corruption among government officers and the ranks of law enforcement officials (story here).

“We should stop playing innocent. We all know who is behind illegal businesses in Phuket – it is those who can choose whether to arrest people or to let them go,” Mr Prab alleged earlier this year.

Source: http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket_news/2013/Patong-mayor-s-resort-targeted-for-land-encroachment-22509.html


-- Phuket Gazette 2013-10-15

[webfact]

Owner denies his Phuket resort breaks the rules
Prapaporn Jitmaneeyaphan


Tourism Minister Somsak Pureesrisak on Patong Beach yesterday. The wall that is the subject of the accusation can be seen behind him.

PHUKET: -- Prab Keesin of Pisona Co, owner of the Patong Bay Garden Resort, has rebutted accusations that the resort encroaches on the beach.

The accusation came in a round-robin to officials, sparking a visit yesterday by Tourism Minister Somsak Pureesrisak, officers from the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) and others.

Mr Prab, son of Patong’s currently suspended Mayor Pian Keesin, said, “This resort opened in 1985. My land and the resort are still the same.

“But the sea has changed. The [2004 Asian] Tsunami happened. The concrete wall [at the beach end of the resort] was built to prevent erosion by the sea. I did not build it to expand the land, but to ensure the resort is not ruined.

“If the resort were to collapse, guests would get hurt. Who is going to be responsible for this damage? I am ready for an investigation at any time. If the construction does extend onto public land, or if I’ve done anything wrong, just let me know. I am happy to follow the rules.

“But if the officials want to investigate this matter, they should check every building that is close to the beach, not just mine.

“Whenever I build anything, I always have the good of the public in mind. I can confirm that the concrete wall was built only as protection from natural calamity.”

Source: http://www.thephuketnews.com/owner-denies-his-phuket-resort-breaks-the-rules-42352.php


-- Phuket News 2013-10-15

[LivinginKata]

We cannot say whether or not the hotel has encroached onto public land since the documents we have are not clear enough, Minister Somsak said.

Just displays the farce of the DSI. Poor investigative planning. All show. No real intent to enforce any encroachment. Complete joke.

[steelepulse]

Where are the chanote markers?

All land papers and documents I've ever seen are clear enough to decipher legalities and location markers.

[Paangjang]

Where are the chanote markers?

All land papers and documents I've ever seen are clear enough to decipher legalities and location markers.

On a map (scribbled out with a pen) along with ฿200,000 in a large brown envelope. "The owner was tipped off" people being tipped in more ways than one perhaps?

[LivinginKata]

Where are the chanote markers?

All land papers and documents I've ever seen are clear enough to decipher legalities and location markers.

How do you know the land even has a Chanote title ? We have bought a number of pieces of land and none of them had these markers (tiny little concrete post with a reference number on the top). We always had to pay the local land office to send out surveyors to check the land title paper. And I know plenty of cases where the post was moved, a neighbour tried this trick on one of our borders.

[steelepulse]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

[stevenl]

What I do know is that his life is not as easy as it used to be. First named as mafia, then forced to resign as mayor, and now named in land encroaching. A few years back all 3 events would have been unthinkable.

[LivinginKata]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

[Dag Ekeberg]

To you journalists in Phuket: Go to the land office and get copies of the title deeds. earn your pay! There's no ambiguity in a title deed.

[klauskunkel]

“I wanted to talked with the person who has been called ‘mafia’. I wanted to ask why people with such power do not use their influence to control people to do the right thing.

“When such people have the power to do illegal things, all the people under their control are willing to break the law, and this is despite Phuket having beautiful beaches that should be the place of polite people.

“I want such people to help improve Phuket,” Mr Somsak said.

This is a government minister talking about "mafia"...his understanding of what "mafia" is surely differs from mine...

[kanhoo]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

Then why not use DGPS which is widely available and has errors topped at 10cm which can be reduced to 3cm using one of the paid systems. DGPS also takes into account height above sea level. You would think someone with 30 years experience with commercial Navigation and oil well positioning would know that.

[NanLaew]

Ahh... Phuket. Where's there's more chanote's than actual land.

[hellodolly]

In my business we often went into older towns doing revitalization programs. Buildings encroaching on other property was a common experience. This was in Canada.

It wasn't really that long ago that all the high tech surveying equipment came on the scene. I am quite sure it was around a long time before Thailand got around to using it. Even today how many places use it.

I am not trying to defend him I am merely pointing out that if it is not a large area it is easy here to have ambiguous measurements.

How much land are we talking here 4 square meters 4 square kilometers how much?

[hellodolly]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

Then why not use DGPS which is widely available and has errors topped at 10cm which can be reduced to 3cm using one of the paid systems. DGPS also takes into account height above sea level. You would think someone with 30 years experience with commercial Navigation and oil well positioning would know that.

You would think that some one who knows that would know it wasn't around 30 years ago. What ever possessed you to think that 30 years ago Puckett was using state of the art equipment.

Also how old and accurate was the information they had to work with originally. As I said in my earlier post I have had a lot of experience with property lines drawn up years ago and being inaccurate. Now you want to use 2013 equipment to verify 30 year old work done with equipment that probably belonged in a museum. Thailand would be in one hell of a mess if they tried that with every piece of property in Thailand. Also consider how accurate was the data they had in those days.

Thailand is not exactly known for being on the ball they lack in many ways and are waiting for the ways and means to come along so they can copy them.

As I said I am not defending the man I am just pointing out the realities of the difference in time and equipment.

On the other hand it might be a good idea in Bangkok and every bit of property that in any way encroaches on other property be torn down and then they would be abler to stop worrying about the flood so much. Maybe even build a new city like Burma did.

[JoeThePoster]

But the sea has changed. The [2004 Asian] Tsunami happened.

And don't you forget the continental drift too.

[pomchop]

So they are worried about a sea wall that may be a few feet off while MEANTIME right in front of them the jet ski mafia continues their daily scams and on the other side the tuk tuk mafia is laughing all the way to the bank.

Well done Phuket.

[slipperylobster]

Now that all you smart posters have so cleverly pointed out the obvious remedies.... let me ask you why you bothered.... or have you called the land office down there to instruct them as well?

[DekDaeng]

"“We can take no further action today as the intended target has been tipped off and is not present to be questioned,” he added."

And he took his hotel with him?

[Xonax]

Meanwhile 100 kms north in Khao Lak they are building huge walls clearly encroaching the beach, backed and paid for by the local governor.

Why is it, that these crackdowns are always just enforced towards a very few of the huge number of persons breaking the exact same law?

[DekDaeng]

What I do know is that his life is not as easy as it used to be. First named as mafia, then forced to resign as mayor, and now named in land encroaching. A few years back all 3 events would have been unthinkable.

My god - could Thailand be changing?

[kanhoo]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

Then why not use DGPS which is widely available and has errors topped at 10cm which can be reduced to 3cm using one of the paid systems. DGPS also takes into account height above sea level. You would think someone with 30 years experience with commercial Navigation and oil well positioning would know that.

You would think that some one who knows that would know it wasn't around 30 years ago. What ever possessed you to think that 30 years ago Puckett was using state of the art equipment.

Also how old and accurate was the information they had to work with originally. As I said in my earlier post I have had a lot of experience with property lines drawn up years ago and being inaccurate. Now you want to use 2013 equipment to verify 30 year old work done with equipment that probably belonged in a museum. Thailand would be in one hell of a mess if they tried that with every piece of property in Thailand. Also consider how accurate was the data they had in those days.

Thailand is not exactly known for being on the ball they lack in many ways and are waiting for the ways and means to come along so they can copy them.

As I said I am not defending the man I am just pointing out the realities of the difference in time and equipment.

On the other hand it might be a good idea in Bangkok and every bit of property that in any way encroaches on other property be torn down and then they would be abler to stop worrying about the flood so much. Maybe even build a new city like Burma did.

I know DGPS wasn't widely available 30 years ago . But it is now, and it can be used to cross reference the coordinates that are on the original Chanote and the actual coordinates of land occupied today.

[Carrerakiss]

To you journalists in Phuket: Go to the land office and get copies of the title deeds. earn your pay! There's no ambiguity in a title deed.

A piece of land I wanted to buy showed 9 rai, 2 ngan on the chanote deed. When I paid the local land office to come out to measure and check if it was right, the land turned out to be a little more than 7 rai.

Plenty of ambiguity there.

[Carrerakiss]

What I do know is that his life is not as easy as it used to be. First named as mafia, then forced to resign as mayor, and now named in land encroaching. A few years back all 3 events would have been unthinkable.

My god - could Thailand be changing?

I think it maybe more a case of the face changing, but the system stays the same

[NamKangMan]

What I do know is that his life is not as easy as it used to be. First named as mafia, then forced to resign as mayor, and now named in land encroaching. A few years back all 3 events would have been unthinkable.

This may be true, but what has actually been achieved?

He keeps all his assets. He passes control to another family member. He will never see the inside of a gaol for one day.

Where is the justice being seen to be done? Where is the deterrent?

As for the tourists and expats, making his life a little harder hasn't fixed and of the issues on Phuket.

Phuket hasn't got the time for the slowly slowly approach. Phuket is sliding down fast and needs, immediate and serious intervention.

[NamKangMan]

To you journalists in Phuket: Go to the land office and get copies of the title deeds. earn your pay! There's no ambiguity in a title deed.

"There's no ambiguity in a title deed." - how do you tell the difference between a real deed, a forged deed, a fake deed, or a paid for title deed?

Edited October 15, 2013 by NamKangMan

[attento]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

Then why not use DGPS which is widely available and has errors topped at 10cm which can be reduced to 3cm using one of the paid systems. DGPS also takes into account height above sea level. You would think someone with 30 years experience with commercial Navigation and oil well positioning would know that.

height above sea level is not likely to be a significant factor for beachside properties . .

[attento]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

Navcom's Starfire system claims acccuracy of better than 5cm. If this is true, accuracy levels such as this could resolve most territorial disputes. What is the accuracy of current and historic methods for positioning of boundary markers - is it better than 5cm ?

[cabanlit]

To you journalists in Phuket: Go to the land office and get copies of the title deeds. earn your pay! There's no ambiguity in a title deed.

Can't do. In Thailand, land details aren't "public register". You can get copies from those who have originals etc, but can't just turn up at LO and ask for a copy of such and such land deed.

[Dag Ekeberg]

To you journalists in Phuket: Go to the land office and get copies of the title deeds. earn your pay! There's no ambiguity in a title deed.

Can't do. In Thailand, land details aren't "public register". You can get copies from those who have originals etc, but can't just turn up at LO and ask for a copy of such and such land deed.

Can do it. Go to LO. Fill out form. Look at deed.