Holiday/OT pay for Thai worker

[bamboozled]

In Chiang Mai, a friend just started working at a hotel as a cashier (and sometimes has to fill in at reception) 5 or 6 working days ago. He is supposed to work Monday thru Friday from 8 to 17. For the first two weeks, he will be paid between 250 and 300 baht, according to the personnel manager. Why this is not a specific amount I surmise in a negative light: that 300 baht was floated in the conversation as enticement but the final pay will of course be 250 (with the other 50 baht going to....). Anyhow, he has already worked one 15 hour shift, due to lack of employees, at I assume the normal rate (not OT). He was asked to work today from 7 to 23 and was told he would get an extra 200 baht for the extra hours. He was happy to work and earn extra money, I might add. But me being a farang, I got my panties all in a bunch and figure I know better and should mess things up (ha!).

I have looked up the Thai labor laws and read that anything over 8 hours in a day is OT at time and a half. Does this mean that every day he works 9 hours he should be paid 1 hour of OT? And today, anything over 8 hours, should he receive OT at time and a half?

It then occurred to me that today is also a national holiday. Thai labor says employees are paid at 2 times the normal rate for normal working hours on national holidays and that OT on national holidays is paid at 3 times the normal rate.

From what I read on line, these appear to be the rules. In practice, however, do employers generally play by the rules? Can my friend ask for 1.5 OT after 8 hours, double time for 8 hours on nat. holiday, and triple OT for nat. holiday such as today?

Thank you, Bamboozled

[CMSteve]

Really depends if is hired as a salaried employee of hourly. Either way he can go to the labor board and complain. The will assist him in getting paid any unpaid amounts. Unfortunately, he will not have a job for long afterwards.

[brit1984]

this is thailand - labour laws are fairly lax and not well enforced - plenty of workers get paid nearly nothing and plenty of workers do nearly nothing

i think most employers here are hesitant to give a good deal to new staff until they have settled in and shown they are dependable / hardworking

many thai workers have (and prefer) a general understanding with their employers that they wont get paid much but they wont do much either

if your friend is a good worker (with experience) he can shop around for a better salary/benefits deal, or wait to show his worth and ask for more later

ps: my guess is your friend knows all this already so try not to be the fussy know-it-all farang as he might not appreciate your "help" much

Edited October 23, 2013 by brit1984

[bamboozled]

It's such a two-way street. Yes, the employers don't want to pay for crappy staff and the employees don't want to work for crappy pay. Who will be the first to break that chain? It gets me a little flustered how workers are taken advantage of here. And of course a lot of the workers really suck!

So you both are saying he could speak up but with consequences....?

[brit1984]

^ he better just see what else is available and jump if necessary or wait to show he is the real deal and renegotiate his pay once he would actually be missed (and hence in a better negotiating position)- cant see much good coming from asking for a pay rise after 1 week

[CMSteve]

or keep working and keep good records of everything. In a year or two if/when he's ready to move on, go to the labor board and recover all back pay.

[worgeordie]

My daughter works at the front desk of a 5 star hotel in Chiang Mai, wage is Bht 300 per 9 hr

day, 6 day week,don't know what happened to the 15K p.m. promised by the PM for Uni graduates,

The hotel does not seem concerned about the staff at all,I thought having reliable,honest staff,

that are conciseness workers would be an asset for any service industry especially a five star

hotel,where returning guests would be welcomed by familiar faces.

But the hotel has such a high turnover of staff, in the last couple of weeks 2 new starters both

did 2 days and packed it in, 3 of the other staff and the manager are working their notice,the

manager only receives 12K p.m. plus share service charge,tips. to me this seems like false

economy to pay the staff so little and at same time to expect any level of commitment from

the staff,I don't think a high turnover of staff is good for any business,but it seems this

particular hotel takes the view theres plenty more to fill the vacancies, is this the thinking

of most Thai companies?

regards Worgeordie

[brit1984]

My daughter works at the front desk of a 5 star hotel in Chiang Mai, wage is Bht 300 per 9 hr

day, 6 day week,don't know what happened to the 15K p.m. promised by the PM for Uni graduates,

The hotel does not seem concerned about the staff at all,I thought having reliable,honest staff,

that are conciseness workers would be an asset for any service industry especially a five star

hotel,where returning guests would be welcomed by familiar faces.

But the hotel has such a high turnover of staff, in the last couple of weeks 2 new starters both

did 2 days and packed it in, 3 of the other staff and the manager are working their notice,the

manager only receives 12K p.m. plus share service charge,tips. to me this seems like false

economy to pay the staff so little and at same time to expect any level of commitment from

the staff,I don't think a high turnover of staff is good for any business,but it seems this

particular hotel takes the view theres plenty more to fill the vacancies, is this the thinking

of most Thai companies?

regards Worgeordie

i know it can seem like that and many thai employers under estimate the importance of their staff

but the reality is a lot of workers here just aren't that good/ serious/ loyal (and don't want to be)

i learnt the hard way that paying more doesn't necessarily transform them all into perfect workers

you have to constantly hire new staff, then later reward (and retain) the best and most loyal ones

its not easy though due to adverse selection (i.e. the best workers normally aren't looking for jobs)

and the system can seem unfair for inexperienced staff but later they can get a fair/ good deal

[chunktal]

Don't forget that between 08:00 and 17:00, there is a 1 hour lunch break, or should be (it's in the Labour Law as well) so it is an 8 hour work day not 9, he can't claim 1 hour o/t for lunch. If he's not getting his break, that is a different problem.

[bamboozled]

I wasn't sure how to figure that one hour break. I think it is supposed to be 8 hours of "work" and in that 8 hours, one of those hours is a break. So 9 hours is still 1 hour of OT. Am I wrong? Anyhow, he doesn't get an hour break. He gets enough time to eat something and then back to the grind. True, it's not always busy and true many employees do suck.

Perhaps these labor laws are geared more toward "white" collar jobs such as in an office or a bank. These workers are probably more educated and knowledgable about the laws and bring more value to the table. I suppose hotel jobs are easier to get and thus easier to lose and the whole thing is precarious for both sides. I will tell him to just sit tight and take what they offer for the time being. He is happy to be working anyhow so I will just screw things up!

Cheers....

[brit1984]

^ i think the laws are there (or should be there) mostly to protect government workers (at least those who trained / committed to careers in government)

the market should ensure a fair deal for the others in the end (although a fair deal for a lot of workers doesn't necessarily equate to very much!)

[chunktal]

I wasn't sure how to figure that one hour break. I think it is supposed to be 8 hours of "work" and in that 8 hours, one of those hours is a break. So 9 hours is still 1 hour of OT. Am I wrong? Anyhow, he doesn't get an hour break. He gets enough time to eat something and then back to the grind. True, it's not always busy and true many employees do suck.

Perhaps these labor laws are geared more toward "white" collar jobs such as in an office or a bank. These workers are probably more educated and knowledgable about the laws and bring more value to the table. I suppose hotel jobs are easier to get and thus easier to lose and the whole thing is precarious for both sides. I will tell him to just sit tight and take what they offer for the time being. He is happy to be working anyhow so I will just screw things up!

Cheers....

Section 23 - "...the working time shall not exceed 8 hours per day..."

Section 27 - "...an employer shall arrange a rest period during work for an employee of not less than 1 hour...." and "....the rest period during work shall not be counted as working time....."

Seems pretty clear, please note I'm not saying your friend isn't being screwed over (and many others that don't know their rights), just saying you need to check the facts if you are going to argue the point with the employer. 8 hours of work time plus a 1 hour break after no more than 5 hours work (Section 27 also) equals a 9 hour period, 08:00 - 17:00 for example.

Also note, I'm just going off the 1998 version of the Labour Protection Act, it's the only copy I have and it may have been updated.

[johnlandy]

Thais exploit Thais.

Thai companies exploit Thai employees. They have done it for eons so why change now?

And as one poster has written 'put your hand (or head up) and you are out of a job'

Another fact of life in the realm...

[brianb1944]

The 300 baht per day law is ignored by most small businesses. Many rural workers in Issan are still planting/harvesting rice for 120 baht per day. Brother in law, who is a chef, came to CM for work, was asked by 1 employer for a 9000 baht bond, refundable after 3 months "satisfactory" service. Another employer offered him 200 baht per day, for 12 hours work. Is now working in a hotel, on the clock, and getting paid his 300 baht per day plus o/t. It pays to shop around.

[ericthai]

He should be getting over time pay if he is working more than 8 work hours a day. He should also be getting holiday pay for any holidays but the holidays need to be listed in the company handbook and holidays must include government recognized holidays. Should be the same for a hotel as it is for a factory.

Paying more to have good workers does not work. I tired it many times.

I also tried bonuses to try and correct quality issues but that did not work either. The workers want more money but they just dont care. I'm not saying they are all bad as I have had some really good workers which most of the time are girls. I paid them more, some stayed some left. We have always paid more than minimum wage but again it makes no difference.

Either you get a good worker or you dont. Giving an increase in pay is only a short term motivator.

[Udox]

Firstly, the 1998 Labour law is still the current one, although there have been 3 or 4 small amendments which can be found as PDF files on the labour dept. website.

The rules for service industries are slightly different and in the document, you will see which rules affect which industries. It will say something like 'this does not apply to hotels, restaurants etc......'

This is pertinent for working on Public Holidays where if the employee is required to work (such as in hotels) then he is entitled to have that day off another time (not exact wording).

The 8 hour working day rule is a benchmark UNLESS the employee has previously agreed to the alternative hours and this could be in the form of his contract or other document. (My staff used to work a 12 hour day)

Overtime kicks in when you work in excess of those nominated hours and has different rates depending on if you do O/T on a normal working day, if you do O/T on a normal rest day or O/T on a P.H. (Between 1.5 and 3.0 usual hourly rate)

If O/T is to be worked then the employee must have a 20 minute break between his normal hours ending and the period of O/T commencing.

It is normal for a one hour break in an 8 hour working day.

All this is in the Labour Act mentioned above.

If the Labour Act or the individuals contract has been broken, then the very helpful local Labour Department can investigate and start a claim against the company if the employees rights have been violated.

They are usually on the side of the employee.

[h90]

My daughter works at the front desk of a 5 star hotel in Chiang Mai, wage is Bht 300 per 9 hr

day, 6 day week,don't know what happened to the 15K p.m. promised by the PM for Uni graduates,

The hotel does not seem concerned about the staff at all,I thought having reliable,honest staff,

that are conciseness workers would be an asset for any service industry especially a five star

hotel,where returning guests would be welcomed by familiar faces.

But the hotel has such a high turnover of staff, in the last couple of weeks 2 new starters both

did 2 days and packed it in, 3 of the other staff and the manager are working their notice,the

manager only receives 12K p.m. plus share service charge,tips. to me this seems like false

economy to pay the staff so little and at same time to expect any level of commitment from

the staff,I don't think a high turnover of staff is good for any business,but it seems this

particular hotel takes the view theres plenty more to fill the vacancies, is this the thinking

of most Thai companies?

regards Worgeordie

Strange: In Bangkok for some little bit advanced office job: taking phone, key in invoices without cheating, put something in excel there is nothing below 12000.

Home maid is 9-13.000

Our people on the CNC lathe get 15-20.000++ and the are not much more than user, who know which buttons to press with some basic understanding. Not someone who can set up things or program something.

German Restaurant told me 15.000 Baht salary + tip for service staff, if they are willing to learn a little bit German. Every course is paid

A Scuba company in Pattaya told me they want the girls in the office make the most basic padi course so they know what they speak about when customer come and would pay good.

For all these, it is very hard to find someone. From 12 people we called last time 11 found already a job. For anyone CNC or manual lathe experience the department for unemployed (don't know the name) told us there is no single person available in Thailand.

We had some construction work to do in Nakhon Si Thammerat. And almost everyone was full booked with work.

So either it is a regional problem. That just in Bangkok (and maybe NST) people aren't available. But on the country side or here CM people don't have jobs?

Or bad communication Companies can't find the staff, the staff can't find the companies?

Staff want to go the easy route and don't want to learn more? That I doubt, because I am sure a 5 star hotel doesn't take it easy as well. I think they'll have a lot training and pressure there as well.

[brit1984]

^ very true - lots of good job opportunities available for those who are willing to look for the jobs (or work hard to get promoted)

[recycler]

Minimum wage is 300 Baht per day all over Thailand, only for Thai nationals, you can pay less to a non Thai. This is for 8 hours per day and 6 days a week, 7 hours per day in hazardous environments. Sunday is a normally off.

Overtime on normal days is 1.5 times normal rate and 2 times normal rate for working in Sundays and national holidays.

Overtime should be calculated based on the 8 or 7 hours working hours per day.

Many get less, because they don't know, don't understand the calculation and if they do they are afraid to complain and run the risk of losing their job.

The labor department does a good job if they are involved, but many have no idea about them or how to contact them.

[ericthai]

My daughter works at the front desk of a 5 star hotel in Chiang Mai, wage is Bht 300 per 9 hr

day, 6 day week,don't know what happened to the 15K p.m. promised by the PM for Uni graduates,

The hotel does not seem concerned about the staff at all,I thought having reliable,honest staff,

that are conciseness workers would be an asset for any service industry especially a five star

hotel,where returning guests would be welcomed by familiar faces.

But the hotel has such a high turnover of staff, in the last couple of weeks 2 new starters both

did 2 days and packed it in, 3 of the other staff and the manager are working their notice,the

manager only receives 12K p.m. plus share service charge,tips. to me this seems like false

economy to pay the staff so little and at same time to expect any level of commitment from

the staff,I don't think a high turnover of staff is good for any business,but it seems this

particular hotel takes the view theres plenty more to fill the vacancies, is this the thinking

of most Thai companies?

regards Worgeordie

Strange: In Bangkok for some little bit advanced office job: taking phone, key in invoices without cheating, put something in excel there is nothing below 12000.

Home maid is 9-13.000

Our people on the CNC lathe get 15-20.000++ and the are not much more than user, who know which buttons to press with some basic understanding. Not someone who can set up things or program something.

German Restaurant told me 15.000 Baht salary + tip for service staff, if they are willing to learn a little bit German. Every course is paid

A Scuba company in Pattaya told me they want the girls in the office make the most basic padi course so they know what they speak about when customer come and would pay good.

For all these, it is very hard to find someone. From 12 people we called last time 11 found already a job. For anyone CNC or manual lathe experience the department for unemployed (don't know the name) told us there is no single person available in Thailand.

We had some construction work to do in Nakhon Si Thammerat. And almost everyone was full booked with work.

So either it is a regional problem. That just in Bangkok (and maybe NST) people aren't available. But on the country side or here CM people don't have jobs?

Or bad communication Companies can't find the staff, the staff can't find the companies?

Staff want to go the easy route and don't want to learn more? That I doubt, because I am sure a 5 star hotel doesn't take it easy as well. I think they'll have a lot training and pressure there as well.

I think your maid price is a little off. My wife is only paying our live in maid 7000B and that was considered good pay as others were paying 4K to 6K.

Granted this is not Bangkok. Last I lived in Bangkok was over 10 years ago, at that time I was paying 6K for a maid that came to my condo daily but she only worked maybe 2-3hrs a day as I had a small condo.

As you are saying it's hard to find workers, this is true there is a labor shortage. Many of the workers from Burma have returned home leaving Thailand with a shortage of construction, factory and maid workers all the jobs Thai's dont want to do.

Prior to the minimum wage increase I was paying 180B a day for workers and was still having a big turn over. Most of the guy would work 2-3 days and quit as the work was too hard. Sorry to say most young Thai guys dont want to work. I'm not saying all.

[h90]

My daughter works at the front desk of a 5 star hotel in Chiang Mai, wage is Bht 300 per 9 hr

day, 6 day week,don't know what happened to the 15K p.m. promised by the PM for Uni graduates,

The hotel does not seem concerned about the staff at all,I thought having reliable,honest staff,

that are conciseness workers would be an asset for any service industry especially a five star

hotel,where returning guests would be welcomed by familiar faces.

But the hotel has such a high turnover of staff, in the last couple of weeks 2 new starters both

did 2 days and packed it in, 3 of the other staff and the manager are working their notice,the

manager only receives 12K p.m. plus share service charge,tips. to me this seems like false

economy to pay the staff so little and at same time to expect any level of commitment from

the staff,I don't think a high turnover of staff is good for any business,but it seems this

particular hotel takes the view theres plenty more to fill the vacancies, is this the thinking

of most Thai companies?

regards Worgeordie

Strange: In Bangkok for some little bit advanced office job: taking phone, key in invoices without cheating, put something in excel there is nothing below 12000.

Home maid is 9-13.000

Our people on the CNC lathe get 15-20.000++ and the are not much more than user, who know which buttons to press with some basic understanding. Not someone who can set up things or program something.

German Restaurant told me 15.000 Baht salary + tip for service staff, if they are willing to learn a little bit German. Every course is paid

A Scuba company in Pattaya told me they want the girls in the office make the most basic padi course so they know what they speak about when customer come and would pay good.

For all these, it is very hard to find someone. From 12 people we called last time 11 found already a job. For anyone CNC or manual lathe experience the department for unemployed (don't know the name) told us there is no single person available in Thailand.

We had some construction work to do in Nakhon Si Thammerat. And almost everyone was full booked with work.

So either it is a regional problem. That just in Bangkok (and maybe NST) people aren't available. But on the country side or here CM people don't have jobs?

Or bad communication Companies can't find the staff, the staff can't find the companies?

Staff want to go the easy route and don't want to learn more? That I doubt, because I am sure a 5 star hotel doesn't take it easy as well. I think they'll have a lot training and pressure there as well.

I think your maid price is a little off. My wife is only paying our live in maid 7000B and that was considered good pay as others were paying 4K to 6K.

Granted this is not Bangkok. Last I lived in Bangkok was over 10 years ago, at that time I was paying 6K for a maid that came to my condo daily but she only worked maybe 2-3hrs a day as I had a small condo.

As you are saying it's hard to find workers, this is true there is a labor shortage. Many of the workers from Burma have returned home leaving Thailand with a shortage of construction, factory and maid workers all the jobs Thai's dont want to do.

Prior to the minimum wage increase I was paying 180B a day for workers and was still having a big turn over. Most of the guy would work 2-3 days and quit as the work was too hard. Sorry to say most young Thai guys dont want to work. I'm not saying all.

7000 Baht for the maid isn't so far off from my 9-13K.

Our are not live in. Come at 7AM finish on 4 PM (flexible on the time, just coming early fit the last one we had), so she must buy her food, transportation etc herself.

And in this time it is expected that she really works.

Take 7000, add 1000 for food, 1000 for transportation and living, 1000 for really expecting work and 1000 Bangkok you are on the same.

We told staff, they should clean everything themself and we split the homemaid salary and hand it out as bonus --->Everyone happy.

Our staff is now working good and hard, but it need 10 years to find the people. Efficiency is still far away from Europe, but working hours are more.

I saw a couple people who are willing to work, just they can't. Not used to work, under pressure. Some factories or their Chinese owner need their parts quick if their machines are broken down and they can't produce and they aren't always friendly.