Is a lesbian the same as a "Tom?"

[quiuvo]

I see many lady couples holding hands. No news there. But what gets my attention are the couples in which one lady is like a dyke in America and the other lady is very beautiful. The Tom I cuts her hair very short and is usually fat. She is very protective of her catch.

I was told that the lady usually goes back to being heterosexual but the Tom looks for other lady.

Please give more info on this phenomena.

[ToddWeston]

Oh Lord - quick like a bunny, edit the word FAT out :)

[quiuvo]

Oh Lord - quick like a bunny, edit the word FAT out :)

Usually fat. If not fat they are not even cute. What attracts pretty women to them? Sex, loneliness?

[JoeThePoster]

Love

[canuckamuck]

Whatever the attraction is it definitely works. nearly every time you see a college age stunner, the tom isn't far away.

[quiuvo]

I guess I will be left wondering. One Thai man said it was the paraphernalia Toms use. That may be so but maybe something else.

[orchis]

Life is full of wonders.

[LeCharivari]

To put it at its simplest, all "Toms" are lesbians but not all lesbians are Toms.

Of the couples described "Tom" is the term for the "male"/butch/dyke partner while "Dee" is the term for the "feminine" partner, from "lady" (la-dee).

[onthemoon]

Some toms are lesbians, others aren't.

[LeCharivari]

Some toms are lesbians, others aren't.

I presume you mean "some lesbians are toms, others aren't" and this is a typo.

[onthemoon]

Some toms are lesbians, others aren't.

I presume you mean "some lesbians are toms, others aren't" and this is a typo.

No, I mean it. Actually both is correct.

A tom is a woman who appears to act like a man. It doesn't mean she is a lesbian.

[quiuvo]

Some toms are lesbians, others aren't.

I presume you mean "some lesbians are toms, others aren't" and this is a typo.

No, I mean it. Actually both is correct.

A tom is a woman who appears to act like a man. It doesn't mean she is a lesbian.

Wait, it takes time to digest this conundrum. Help. Ok got it. Two overlapping segments. I still think the toms are a big step above me. I hope I could get lessons from one of them on how to catch etc.

[Bucko]

When I asked the question - "what is a tom " to a Thai Lady--I was simply told- "-A lady that wants to be a man "

[onthemoon]

When I asked the question - "what is a tom " to a Thai Lady--I was simply told- "-A lady that wants to be a man "

So, with this one opinion you heard from somebody about whose credibility who don't tell us anything you now really believe that all tom-boys are female-to-male transgender persons.

Wow, I am speechless.

But on second thought: You are right: Why should the world be more complicated than that?

[LeCharivari]

Some toms are lesbians, others aren't.

I presume you mean "some lesbians are toms, others aren't" and this is a typo.

No, I mean it. Actually both is correct.

A tom is a woman who appears to act like a man. It doesn't mean she is a lesbian.

In the West I'd agree with you, although the expression "a bit of a tom-boy" is rather dated.

In Thailand the expression "Tom" has a VERY specific meaning and it is the female version of a ladyboy/kathoey. Are all those who dress and appear to all outward intents and purposes to be ladyboys/kathoeys gay? Possibly not, a very small minority may indeed be 100% straight, but it's generally accepted that ladyboys/kathoeys are gay rather than just "metrosexual". Similarly maybe not all "Toms" are lesbians, some may just like giving that impression for some reason, but the vast majority are and that is very much what the word means in Thailand.

Peter Jackson's Tom Boys, Lady Boys, Rent Boys: Male and Female Homosexualities in Contemporary Thailand and Male, Female and Transgender: Stereotypes and Self in Thailand by N Udomsak and various other references which have a fair amount of "credibility" are very clear on this.

[LeCharivari]

When I asked the question - "what is a tom " to a Thai Lady--I was simply told- "-A lady that wants to be a man "

That's a bit of an over-simplification, in much the same way that it would be an over-simplification to say that a kathoey/ladyboy is "a man that wants to be a lady" - some do, some don't, some want GRS but the vast majority are simply gay and effeminate to a greater or lesser degree. The same applies to Toms in reverse - some want GRS (considerably less, as it is less "complete") but the vast majority are simply lesbians and "butch" to a greater or lesser degree.

[LeCharivari]

Oh Lord - quick like a bunny, edit the word FAT out

Usually fat. If not fat they are not even cute. What attracts pretty women to them? Sex, loneliness?

"fat" is a bit unfair, certainly to the Thai Toms I know. Many may give the impression of having a high BMI but its not necessarily true as a lot prefer to wear baggy "hip-hop" style clothes or baggy men's jeans in order to cover up the shape of feminine breasts and hips (a "blob" silhouette vs an "hourglass" one). Its also only fair to note that women who exercise/pump iron to "bulk up", as an unusually high number of "butch" lesbians do, change their overall shape in a different way to men - reduced breast fat as against larger pecs, for example and they appear "fatter" rather than more muscular.

That's not to say that your observation doesn't have some merit, though: in the US the National Institute of Health are spending $1.5 million in a study into the "interplay of gender and sexual orientation in obesity disparities" widely known as the "Why Lesbians are Fat" study. According to S. Bryn Austin, an associate professor at Harvard's School of Public Health who is heading the study: "The obesity epidemic is a major public health problem for our country, and no communities are immune. To stop the epidemic, we need to understand what all the causes are, and the causes and solutions to obesity are likely different for different parts of our society. Lesbian and bisexual girls and women make up almost 5 million Americans. In terms of sexual orientation and obesity, lesbians and bisexual girls and women – along with heterosexual men -- seem to be the hardest hit. Why is that? We don’t know, but our study is designed to find out so we can come up with better ways to combat the epidemic for these communities."

So far they've concluded that "women of minority sexual orientation are disproportionately affected by the obesity epidemic, with nearly three-quarters of adult lesbians overweight or obese, compared to half of heterosexual women" while "heterosexual males have nearly double the risk of obesity compared to gay males."

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/03/nih-lesbian-fat-study/63007/

[wooloomooloo]

Peter Jackson's Tom Boys, Lady Boys, Rent Boys: Male and Female Homosexualities in Contemporary Thailand and Male, Female and Transgender: Stereotypes and Self in Thailand

I would have called the book Sex in Thailand. Rolls off the tongue more fluidly.

[sustento]

[Bucko]

When I asked the question - "what is a tom " to a Thai Lady--I was simply told- "-A lady that wants to be a man "

So, with this one opinion you heard from somebody about whose credibility who don't tell us anything you now really believe that all tom-boys are female-to-male transgender persons.

Wow, I am speechless.

But on second thought: You are right: Why should the world be more complicated than that?

Hey Mr Speechless--I did not say that I believed it--I just stated what I was told some time ago--as for the said credibility of the lady in question--she is the wife of friend of mine--I have known both for 14 years.

They run a Hotel /Resteraunt in Thailand---I trust that is satisfactory

[onthemoon]

When I asked the question - "what is a tom " to a Thai Lady--I was simply told- "-A lady that wants to be a man "

So, with this one opinion you heard from somebody about whose credibility who don't tell us anything you now really believe that all tom-boys are female-to-male transgender persons.

Wow, I am speechless.

But on second thought: You are right: Why should the world be more complicated than that?

Hey Mr Speechless--I did not say that I believed it--I just stated what I was told some time ago--as for the said credibility of the lady in question--she is the wife of friend of mine--I have known both for 14 years.

They run a Hotel /Resteraunt in Thailand---I trust that is satisfactory

You are right, you did not say that you believed it. If we brought up every opnion that we've ever heard in Thailand, we'll fill several pages within a few minutes. I mistakenly thought your post had a point. Sorry for that.

[onthemoon]

Some toms are lesbians, others aren't.

I presume you mean "some lesbians are toms, others aren't" and this is a typo.

No, I mean it. Actually both is correct.

A tom is a woman who appears to act like a man. It doesn't mean she is a lesbian.

In the West I'd agree with you, although the expression "a bit of a tom-boy" is rather dated.

In Thailand the expression "Tom" has a VERY specific meaning and it is the female version of a ladyboy/kathoey. Are all those who dress and appear to all outward intents and purposes to be ladyboys/kathoeys gay? Possibly not, a very small minority may indeed be 100% straight, but it's generally accepted that ladyboys/kathoeys are gay rather than just "metrosexual". Similarly maybe not all "Toms" are lesbians, some may just like giving that impression for some reason, but the vast majority are and that is very much what the word means in Thailand.

Peter Jackson's Tom Boys, Lady Boys, Rent Boys: Male and Female Homosexualities in Contemporary Thailand and Male, Female and Transgender: Stereotypes and Self in Thailand by N Udomsak and various other references which have a fair amount of "credibility" are very clear on this.

Well, I can agree with your differentiation of Western and Thai understanding of the term.

However, I don't consider Peter Jackson a credible researcher. I went to a bookreading by him a couple of years ago, and the main source for his wisdom was the "ask uncle whatever" column in a boulevard magazine called "plaek", which similar to those US magazine that keep reporting alien sightings. I don't know the book you are referring to and would take a close look at the references and citations before considering it credible.

[LeCharivari]

Well, I can agree with your differentiation of Western and Thai understanding of the term.

However, I don't consider Peter Jackson a credible researcher. I went to a bookreading by him a couple of years ago, and the main source for his wisdom was the "ask uncle whatever" column in a boulevard magazine called "plaek", which similar to those US magazine that keep reporting alien sightings. I don't know the book you are referring to and would take a close look at the references and citations before considering it credible.

I won't argue with your opinion of Peter Jackson, but as another poster's repeating an unverified "opinion" made you "speechless" I thought I should try to put this in context - and this particular reference contains not only his work but that of 7 other academics on the subject.

I was attempting not to be over-critical as what a "tom-boy" means in some contexts really isn't relevant here. My point is that your posts that "Some toms are lesbians, others aren't" and "A tom is a woman who appears to act like a man. It doesn't mean she is a lesbian" are not only confusing generally and particularly in any Thai context but simply wrong. A "Tom" IS a lesbian - specifically a "butch" lesbian. Someone who dresses and acts like a Tom who isn't a lesbian is NOT a Tom, they're just someone who dresses and acts like a Tom, for whatever reason, in the same way that someone who dresses and acts like a kathoey/ladyboy but who is straight rather than gay is NOT a kathoey/ladyboy.

[LeCharivari]

Oh Lord - quick like a bunny, edit the word FAT out

Usually fat. If not fat they are not even cute. What attracts pretty women to them? Sex, loneliness?

This may answer your question (as long as you don't misinterpret the headline!): http://travel.cnn.com/bangkok/none/dont-call-me-lesbian-tomdee-culture-thailand-176517

[pablodiablo]

dont have to much experiance in this field,but did have a problem a few years ago, was in a bar in london and got talking to a lady at the bar, thought i was doing ok,until she said you seem nice, but your wasteing your time becouse im a lesbian!!( did not see that one comeing! )so to lighten the mood i said thats intresting what part of lesbania are you from? after i picked myself up from the floor i beat a hasty retreat,

[sustento]

We were always guaranteed a good scrap between a couple of lesbians at our local gay club on a Saturday night.

[onthemoon]

Well, I can agree with your differentiation of Western and Thai understanding of the term.

However, I don't consider Peter Jackson a credible researcher. I went to a bookreading by him a couple of years ago, and the main source for his wisdom was the "ask uncle whatever" column in a boulevard magazine called "plaek", which similar to those US magazine that keep reporting alien sightings. I don't know the book you are referring to and would take a close look at the references and citations before considering it credible.

I won't argue with your opinion of Peter Jackson, but as another poster's repeating an unverified "opinion" made you "speechless" I thought I should try to put this in context - and this particular reference contains not only his work but that of 7 other academics on the subject.

I was attempting not to be over-critical as what a "tom-boy" means in some contexts really isn't relevant here. My point is that your posts that "Some toms are lesbians, others aren't" and "A tom is a woman who appears to act like a man. It doesn't mean she is a lesbian" are not only confusing generally and particularly in any Thai context but simply wrong. A "Tom" IS a lesbian - specifically a "butch" lesbian. Someone who dresses and acts like a Tom who isn't a lesbian is NOT a Tom, they're just someone who dresses and acts like a Tom, for whatever reason, in the same way that someone who dresses and acts like a kathoey/ladyboy but who is straight rather than gay is NOT a kathoey/ladyboy.

We already clarified this: I was referring to the international meaning of the word tom, while you are referring to the Thai meaning. I am not sure why you bring this up again.

[sustento]

I see that we're arguing about definitions again. I thought the gay forum wasn't here to explain ourselves to straight people?

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

[Scott]

Off-topic post deleted.