Marriage Visa Extension Denied - Even Tough I Met All Requirements

[Papadragon]

Reading from the beginning it seems to me that the OP really got up this Thai's Immigration Officer's nose - maybe his attitude was arrogant or presumtive and demanding. In any event the Immigration Officer dug his heels in and told him to "Get Lost"

Last Monday I was granted a one year extension by virtue of our 15+ year UK marriage

My Non-Immigrant O single entry 90 day visa issued in London in July expired on 3rd October.

My passport has been stamped now to 3rd October 2014. I just have to report to the police every 90 days

Together with my Thai wife I made 3 trips to the nearest Immigration office 60 miles away.

After that I left it entirely in my wife's capable hands.

She made two more trips ALONE, I wasn't required - our non family guarantor was required twice

She also went ALONE to the local Amphur twice

She also went ALONE to Bangkok to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs twice and to the British Embassy once for affirmation of our UK Marriage Certificate.

I had already applied and received the British Embassy Income letter by post.

We are a mature couple 73 and 52, we married, lived and worked in the UK for four years before returning to our home in Thailand

My Thai wife is more than capable of handling the petty officialdom in her own country, she speaks their language for starters.

Total Cost of the exercise TB18,000 (GBP360) which includes the original Non-Immigrant O broken down as follows :-

Thai Fees TB5,500, British Fees TB5,000 plus buses, taxis & hotels TB7,500

Further to the above I have a Thai bank account as does my wife

My pensions are paid into my UK bank account and I transfer TB30,000 a month living expenses

I would never even contemplate depositing TB400,000 for a marriage visa (or TB800,000 for a retirement visa) given the volatile nature of the Thai attitude to foreigners living in Thailand

The problem is not the sending of the money - the problem is getting it back when the S-H-I-T hits the fan

As Papa told me - when you enter a room always check your escape route and sit facing the door

[Hugh Jarse]

80000 per month and you cannot save 3 months to get 400000 in the bank ? your life must cost a lot !

Thats an irelevant remark. The rules state 400,000k in a bank account or 40k per month. The problem seems to be the interviewing officer not understanding the regs. or envious of the applicant, or both.

[transam]

80000 per month and you cannot save 3 months to get 400000 in the bank ? your life must cost a lot !

Thats an irelevant remark. The rules state 400,000k in a bank account or 40k per month. The problem seems to be the interviewing officer not understanding the regs. or envious of the applicant, or both.

Yep, and folk should read the story before posting daft stuff.

[navara]

Hello,

Weird story.

It's a matter of how many friends you have at the customs. If you get in there like: I know it all or your wife gave a wrong smile, they kick you out, not matter how much income you have. Sorry to write this, but it's true.

Example..... when we wanted to marry, a very unfriendly person started to ask very unreasonable questions. But when he found out who my wife was, we finished in 5 min.

Visa: always ask for help, no matter if you know the Law or not. Show respect.

Good luck

[dao16]

Hello,

Weird story.

It's a matter of how many friends you have at the customs. If you get in there like: I know it all or your wife gave a wrong smile, they kick you out, not matter how much income you have. Sorry to write this, but it's true.

Example..... when we wanted to marry, a very unfriendly person started to ask very unreasonable questions. But when he found out who my wife was, we finished in 5 min.

Visa: always ask for help, no matter if you know the Law or not. Show respect.

Good luck

Ask for help....from whom?

[vahack]

Slip the officer a little tea money or a bottle of his favorite drink.

I think that is the problem. This has grown beyond a little tea money or a drink. They are looking for larger sums now. 10K plus.

In the past, the attorneys have been paying 5K for a hassle-free process and now I think the amount is going up. Now it's becoming pure extortion to buy your extensions now.

Going by the OP, it appears they are getting quite arrogant about it where before it was more covert. I hope the OP's experience is an exception versus a new rule.

luckily the immigration officers i work with in Amnat have so far been friendly and a great help. it doesn't hurt that i donate to their tip box every 90 days.

i get stressed and nervous every year when i go through this process of getting permission to stay in the house i built and live with my wife and kid. its pretty crazy.

one thing to remember - Thais are always right! in the stores, on the streets, in the offices, everywhere. if you get into an argument, you have to bribe or tip. and always smile and wai.

this isn't our country and they don't want us here.

[thedragon]

Wow, this is crazy! I never in a million years expected 6 pages of replies.

I don't even know how to reply to each one of them, but I'll try in the next few hours to address at least a few of them.

The retirement visa option is out of question for me, as I'm in my mid-30's.

I never had any issues with Immigration in my last 4 extensions. What shocked me the most is that he refused to return my passport until after I signed the document that I would have 400,000 in the bank account on my next extension - and his supervisor was there when he did that, so she must have known about it. And also when he suggested to my wife that she should find another husband who had 400,000 in the bank if I didn't have enough. I wish I had a tape recording of that moment.

Edited October 31, 2013 by thedragon

[transam]

Wow, this is crazy! I never in a million years expected 6 pages of replies.

I don't even know how to reply to each one of them, but I'll try in the next few hours to address at least a few of them.

The retirement visa option is out of question for me, as I'm in my mid-30's.

I never had any issues with Immigration in my last 4 extensions. What shocked me the most is that he refused to return my passport until after I signed the document that I would have 400,000 in the bank account on my next extension - and his supervisor was there when he did that, so she must have known about it. And also when he suggested to my wife that she should find another husband who had 400,000 in the bank if I didn't have enough. I wish I had a tape recording of that moment.

, your last sentence has me biting my key board. These jealous, unthoughtful sh_ts make me cringe.

[bangkokstick]

80000 per month and you cannot save 3 months to get 400000 in the bank ? your life must cost a lot !

Thats an irelevant remark. The rules state 400,000k in a bank account or 40k per month. The problem seems to be the interviewing officer not understanding the regs. or envious of the applicant, or both.

I exactly know, but 400k is peanuts and someone who gets 80k a month keep making problem, so who is wrong here ?

If I was the officer I would make sure that you will never get an extension because I do what I want in my country, is it difficult to understand ?

But if some people WHO COULD DO ANOTHER WAY prefer to keep fighting, up to them...

[transam]

80000 per month and you cannot save 3 months to get 400000 in the bank ? your life must cost a lot !

Thats an irelevant remark. The rules state 400,000k in a bank account or 40k per month. The problem seems to be the interviewing officer not understanding the regs. or envious of the applicant, or both.

I exactly know, but 400k is peanuts and someone who gets 80k a month keep making problem, so who is wrong here ?

If I was the officer I would make sure that you will never get an extension because I do what I want in my country, is it difficult to understand ?

But if some people WHO COULD DO ANOTHER WAY prefer to keep fighting, up to them...

Gawd...........

[thaiexpat21]

There is something about this story which does not quite compute.

Many people obtain extensions every day based on income from abroad.

Whilst I accept that immigration officers can at times be irritating in demanding additional paperwork this is the first time I have heard of an outright refusal.

I wonder if the OP will exercise his right of appeal which is easily done. There is of course a time limit placed on appeals but immigration will allow an extension whilst the appeal is considered.

On the basis of what the OP has told us an appeal would be unlikely to fail as it would be considered against immigration law and standing police orders.

[spermwhale]

Get a lawyer who will process it for you. You won't have this problem if you have representation.

[Maestro]

Removed post with false information.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Papadragon]

Wow, this is crazy! I never in a million years expected 6 pages of replies.

I don't even know how to reply to each one of them, but I'll try in the next few hours to address at least a few of them.

The retirement visa option is out of question for me, as I'm in my mid-30's.

I never had any issues with Immigration in my last 4 extensions. What shocked me the most is that he refused to return my passport until after I signed the document that I would have 400,000 in the bank account on my next extension - and his supervisor was there when he did that, so she must have known about it. And also when he suggested to my wife that she should find another husband who had 400,000 in the bank if I didn't have enough. I wish I had a tape recording of that moment.

I'm beginning to get the picture now

Mid 30's and receiving TH80,000 pm from a trust fund and only TB260,000 in the bank

I have never found Thai Immigration Officers hard to deal with as long as you are decently presented, show respect, wei and bow slightly and ask them to help you.

If you treat them like subordinates and inferior to you they will take that as an insult - you should give them face - make them feel important.

Demanding to speak with his superior was the kiss of death - the ultimate insult - what did you expect after that ?

Draw your own conclusions as to why this particular Officer reacted in this manner TV people - I have

Also when the Immigration Officer suggested to your wife that she should find a husband with TB400,000 in the bank did he speak English or Thai ?

Presumably he spoke in Thai since they are both Thais - do you speak Thai well enough to understand what he said ?

I doubt it ! So how can you be sure exactly what he said ? and if he did that's the ultimate Thai to Thai put down !

You must have really pissed him off

Edited October 31, 2013 by Papadragon

[evadgib]

English or Thai it was downright out of order & shouldn't be left unchecked.

Edited October 31, 2013 by evadgib

[yoshiwara]

The key to this story is not the dispute about the rules, it is the rudeness to his wife. It is that which puts everything in context.

Edited October 31, 2013 by yoshiwara

[bigbamboo]

Clearly an officer who is even more confused by the Thai Immigration laws than some poor farangs are!

[deepcell]

The best way to go sounds to be a loan. Contact your Bank and give your car as a guarantee. For sure they will accept the deal if not offer your house. Get the loan show the office you have that money, get the extension. Go back to bank and pay out your loan and be sure to cancel the loan contract.

Next year, do it all again.

[thaipedro]

The best way to go sounds to be a loan. Contact your Bank and give your car as a guarantee. For sure they will accept the deal if not offer your house. Get the loan show the office you have that money, get the extension. Go back to bank and pay out your loan and be sure to cancel the loan contract.

Next year, do it all again.

It's quite simple. Find another immigration office.

Best luck

Peter

[thedragon]

There is something about this story which does not quite compute.

Many people obtain extensions every day based on income from abroad.

Whilst I accept that immigration officers can at times be irritating in demanding additional paperwork this is the first time I have heard of an outright refusal.

I wonder if the OP will exercise his right of appeal which is easily done. There is of course a time limit placed on appeals but immigration will allow an extension whilst the appeal is considered.

On the basis of what the OP has told us an appeal would be unlikely to fail as it would be considered against immigration law and standing police orders.

Yeah, I wish I could understand what went wrong, too. I did what I do every year. The only difference that I can think of, a few days afterwards, is that this was the first MALE officer I ever had for a visa extension. All my previous extensions have been with FEMALE officers. But then again, you can't choose the counter you get after you spend 3 hours waiting in the queue.

I will go outside of Thailand in a few days to get a multiple entry O visa, then come back and try again and let you guys know how it went. I need to get all the paperwork together again, pay for the embassy letter again, etc. so it will take some time as my embassy always asks for the most recent supporting documents before issuing the letter. I can't get all that done again in the few days left on my visa.

I should probably also add that the immigration officer went to the archive and got my entire folder of documents from the past 4 years and read through all of them. He kept shaking his head saying that I never showed 400,000 in the bank in the past 4 years and that I should have never received any extension, ever.

He kept saying that the 40,000+ per month income option was if I had a work permit, which makes no sense at all.

If I get denied again, I will definitely appeal. I didn't know about appealing before and the officer certainly didn't make me aware that I had this option. I thought that my best chance was to speak to his supervisor, who however didn't want to have anything to do with it.

[thedragon]

Wow, this is crazy! I never in a million years expected 6 pages of replies.

I don't even know how to reply to each one of them, but I'll try in the next few hours to address at least a few of them.

The retirement visa option is out of question for me, as I'm in my mid-30's.

I never had any issues with Immigration in my last 4 extensions. What shocked me the most is that he refused to return my passport until after I signed the document that I would have 400,000 in the bank account on my next extension - and his supervisor was there when he did that, so she must have known about it. And also when he suggested to my wife that she should find another husband who had 400,000 in the bank if I didn't have enough. I wish I had a tape recording of that moment.

I'm beginning to get the picture now

Mid 30's and receiving TH80,000 pm from a trust fund and only TB260,000 in the bank

I have never found Thai Immigration Officers hard to deal with as long as you are decently presented, show respect, wei and bow slightly and ask them to help you.

If you treat them like subordinates and inferior to you they will take that as an insult - you should give them face - make them feel important.

Demanding to speak with his superior was the kiss of death - the ultimate insult - what did you expect after that ?

Draw your own conclusions as to why this particular Officer reacted in this manner TV people - I have

Also when the Immigration Officer suggested to your wife that she should find a husband with TB400,000 in the bank did he speak English or Thai ?

Presumably he spoke in Thai since they are both Thais - do you speak Thai well enough to understand what he said ?

I doubt it ! So how can you be sure exactly what he said ? and if he did that's the ultimate Thai to Thai put down !

You must have really pissed him off

I only asked to speak to his supervisor AFTER he said that he could not extend my visa. It was the very last option I had, not the first thing I said after I sat down.

I've been in Thailand for almost 9 years, 4 of them being married. I can understand Thai almost perfectly and speak it quite well, too. I know everything about Thai customs.

He spoke in Thai almost the entire time and he was well aware that I understood every word. He basically said that there is no law that allows for monthly income from overseas unless I had a work permit. And then told my wife in Thai that I should put 400,000 in the bank account or that she should look for another husband.

He was also well aware that I understood it. I didn't need a translation.

Please don't blame me. Remember I've had extensions for the past 4 years without any problems, ever.

Edited October 31, 2013 by thedragon

[thedragon]

Clearly an officer who is even more confused by the Thai Immigration laws than some poor farangs are!

The sad thing is that a farang knows more about Immigration laws than the actual Immigration officers. When you follow the law completely and have everything in order, only to be treated like this because an officer doesn't know the law and/or doesn't want to lose face.

I am pretty sure that after a while of reading through my files he saw that he was wrong, but then refused to back down from his version, which included saying that I needed a work permit if I wanted to use the 40,000+ per month income option, which is completely ridiculous.

The best way to go sounds to be a loan. Contact your Bank and give your car as a guarantee. For sure they will accept the deal if not offer your house. Get the loan show the office you have that money, get the extension. Go back to bank and pay out your loan and be sure to cancel the loan contract.

Next year, do it all again.

Looks like it. I'll manage one way or another. It's just a huge inconvenience and a lot of money spent for nothing. Trips out of the country, border fees, embassy letter again, etc.

[JLCrab]

The translation of Police Order 777/2551 for the 65K baht In Case of Retirement 2.22 (3) says: "Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month; or..."

In 2.18 (6) it says: "In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month or ..."

So for retirement purposes one must have evidence of an income but for extension based upon marriage it uses the word 'earn'.

Being the beneficiary of a trust certainly is income but one might say that one does not EARN such income noting that the translation on the Immigration website was prepared by the law firm Tillike & Gibbins.

Edited October 31, 2013 by JLCrab

[thedragon]

The translation of Police Order 777/2551 for the 65K baht In Case of Retirement 2.22 (3) says: "Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month; or..."

In 2.18 (6) it says: "In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month or ..."

So for retirement purposes one must have evidence of an income but for extension based upon marriage it uses the word 'earn'.

Being the beneficiary of a trust certainly is income but one might say that one does not EARN such income noting that the translation on the Immigration website was prepared by the law firm Tillike & Gibbins.

I understand what you're saying and it makes sense reading it like that.

The officer said that this rule only applied if I had a work permit. However, if I had a work permit, I wouldn't need to apply for a marriage visa extension, so it doesn't make sense at all. Clearly the rule is open to interpretation but I know of others who show monthly income from outside of Thailand and extend their visa without problems - and I myself have done that for the past 4 years, also without problems.

But then again, I also understand that I'm just a guest (or less) here and can be kicked out at any time if someone is having a bad day or refuses to acknowledge that he's wrong.

This has definitely been an eye-opening experience as to how fragile and insecure our status as foreigners really is in Thailand.

[JLCrab]

In a hypothetical appeal process of your past circumstance, and the Immigration Department wanted to back the decision of the Officer in question, they could say 'Show us how you earned to the 40K' and an overturn on appeal would most likely be disallowed.

That's not to say that that would be a seldom used interpretation of the regulation, but in legal terms (assuming the translation by T&G is consistent with the prevailing Thai original) the officer was correct while also being highly out of the norm in his interpretation. BTW many non-Thais earn income on ex-Thailand assignments on oil platforms etc. so they could demonstrate on what basis they earn the required 40K per month.

[rhodie]

I think this is clearly a case of a Thai official that just did not like you from the start. Youngish guy getting probably 4 times his salary for what he sees as doing nothing, has a pretty wife and can speak Thai. Wrong place at the wrong time.

Good luck with the workaround.

[tonyPhuket]

The best way to go sounds to be a loan. Contact your Bank and give your car as a guarantee. For sure they will accept the deal if not offer your house. Get the loan show the office you have that money, get the extension. Go back to bank and pay out your loan and be sure to cancel the loan contract.

Next year, do it all again.

Have you tried that yourself? What I need to know is whether or not the bank can provide the farang the loan.

[ubonjoe]

The translation of Police Order 777/2551 for the 65K baht In Case of Retirement 2.22 (3) says:  "Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month; or..."

 

In 2.18 (6) it says: "In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month or ..."

 

So for retirement purposes one must have evidence of an income but for extension based upon marriage it uses the word 'earn'.

 

Being the beneficiary of a trust certainly is income but one might say that one does not EARN such income noting that the translation on the Immigration website was prepared by the law firm Tillike & Gibbins.

If immigration was interpret the earn that way say then I would not of gotten 6 extensions of stay based upon an income affidavit with no other proof required.

Immigration order 305/2551 that lists the documents required clearly indicates that use of the word earn as you are interpreting it is not correct.

5. Only for Criteria (5) and (6), the applicant must attach a funds deposit certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook, or attach documents proving that the parents or alien husband earns an average monthly income of no less than Baht 40,000 throughout the year, such as any particular individual income tax return together with payment receipt, evidence of receiving retirement pension, evidence of receiving interest from funds deposit, or evidence of having other funds issued by the relevant agency. An affidavit must also be submitted confirming the alien’s marital or parental status with a Thai national

If you do a Google search for 777/2551 or 305/2551 you will see links to the immigration website for downloading them that is the very same translation.

[Papadragon]

I think this is clearly a case of a Thai official that just did not like you from the start. Youngish guy getting probably 4 times his salary for what he sees as doing nothing, has a pretty wife and can speak Thai.

It seems that something in your manner, attitude, personal demeanor, the way you spoke made this Officer look for ANY excuse NOT to give you an extension and he found it

The interpretation of Income for a Marriage extension as having to be EARNT if you're under 50

This Officer clearly sees UNEARNT income from a trust fund as being suspect and unreliable.

Hence the requirement that you show TB400,000 in the bank.

You insulted him by questioning his authority and calling for his Supervisor hence his comment to you regarding your wife finding a husband who did fulfill the requirements.

Tit for Tat it's called in my country or "handbags" as we call it

Furthermore I would like to add that contrary to some opinions here the British Embassy income letter is NOT a worthless peice of paper issued without evidence of income.

To get mine I had to prove income with a copy of my annual Pensions Office letter. my annual P60 from my private pension and 6 months UK bank statements showing the money coming in before it was issued.

I also presume that pension income is classified as EARNT income and is guaranteed.

As stated in a previous post I never have more than TB50,000 in Thailand and would never pay TB400,000 or TB800,000 into a Thai bank.

Anyone that does might just as well kiss the money goodbye - I keep my money in the UK

Edited November 1, 2013 by Papadragon

[ubonjoe]

Wow, this is crazy! I never in a million years expected 6 pages of replies.

 

I don't even know how to reply to each one of them, but I'll try in the next few hours to address at least a few of them.

 

The retirement visa option is out of question for me, as I'm in my mid-30's.

 

I never had any issues with Immigration in my last 4 extensions. What shocked me the most is that he refused to return my passport until after I signed the document that I would have 400,000 in the bank account on my next extension - and his supervisor was there when he did that, so she must have known about it. And also when he suggested to my wife that she should find another husband who had 400,000 in the bank if I didn't have enough. I wish I had a tape recording of that moment.

I have your replies to some of the posts.

I disagree with the one where you stated you were considering getting a multiple entry visa. If you are close to your current extension expiring I would apply for the 60 day extension to visit your wife that has been mentioned.

I think you should write an appeal under police order 777/2551 that has also been posted and suggested.

It would not require a lawyer to do it. Just address it to immigration.

With the subject being an appeal under the police order clause.

Then info on your rejected application quoting clause 2.18 of of 777/2551 and 305/2551 that allows you to get an extension based upon income.

Just make it short and to the point.

As per the clause for appeal you would attach your application with all the supporting documents. I would also attach a copy of proof that you are bringing the funds into the country on a regular basis.

I don't think that you would wait very long at immigration for a response to it after you presented it in person (wife should be with you). I think you would walk out with an accepted application and a 30 day under considerations stamp.