Senate fails to kill Thai amnesty bill

[metisdead]

A post suggesting ethnic cleansing has been removed as well as a reply.

[muchogra]

Am getting a bit confused here. So 40 cowardly senators fail to show up, so then the senate does not really have to vote on a bill that is " unpopular".

They didn't fail to show up because of cowardice.

These senators were making a point that they are not going to be pushed around by Yingluck and company, and will arrive on Monday when the date was set for the vote. Just because the government has put themselves into an awful and vulnerable position, doesn't mean that they can bully the senators into action at their whim. Let the government stew in their own treacherous juices a few days.

In fact, the senators are being very brave in what they are doing, not cowardly. You have it wrong.

I second that.

May I add that the Group of 40 were also concerned that many senators who were abroad couldn't possibly be back on a short notice on such a tight schedule.

It's not like the Group of 40 deliberately postphoned the meeting. They only wanted to keep the original schedule - the coming Monday - that was originally informed to all senators.

As for accusation of the Group of 40 wanting to stir up things, it's really a nonissue and irrelevant. If the people don't object the bill, they won't come out to protest anyway. No?

Edited November 9, 2013 by muchogra

[hellodolly]

The so-called Group of 40 dissident senators boycotted the meeting, saying they wanted to wait until Monday to debate the amnesty bill, as per the original schedule. Amid the lack of quorum, the Senate speaker waited for more senators to join the meeting and meantime allowed members to discuss the bill. The meeting broke for a recess at 4.30pm.

Senate Speaker Nikom Wairatpanij later met with the Group of 40 and failed to convince them to attend the meeting. Nikom resumed the meeting and told the chamber a consensus had been reached between both wings of the upper House to reject the bill in its first reading on Monday at 10am. The Speaker's words brought vocal protests from senators who wanted to continue with the debate.

So how much did those greedy senators get paid under the table by the Pheu Thai secret staging ground Thaksin dogs???

Senators in Thaiand are the crap and disgrace of Thailand...

Wait until Monday???? What the hell are you guys dreaming about. It was crystal clear that the delay game is starting right now, and I wouldn't be surprise if the crappy senators will delay it again and again and again... and that will ignite an upcoming civil revolution... oh ohh...

so if the Senate doesn't kill the bill, the bill carries on? does this mean things are going to escalate?

Very much likely. Those senators are greedy to the ground up their behinds....

It is all a point of view mixed in with facts. Did you ever consider that the Senators want the protests to last longer there by increasing the chances of protestors to call for a new Government. The PTP wants it over with right now if not ten minutes ago. There by seeing the protestors go home sooner. That is a point of view.

The longer they protest the more aware the people become of the depth of the PTP corruption. That is a point of view

This is not like the corruption when the Democrats held the office of the Prime Minister. They did it with a minority of the votes and had to depend on other parties. That is a fact

The PTP has the majority of the seat's and does not have to please other parties. They are 100% responsible for their actions. That is facts

[rametindallas]

So assuming the senate on Monday votes down the bill before it .

Then the house can revote on it after 180 days.

However PT and the parasite parties have promised to drop this bill and not to revisit it after 180 days.

BUT, is there anything to stop them introducing another (No 8) amnesty bill after they think thing have calmed down enough ?

Yes. The rule states they cannot propose a similar bill also during the 180 days. If the Senate merely votes no and sends the bill back, it sits in Limbo and in 180 days the Lower House alone (with 50% +1 votes) can exonerate Dr. Thaksin and themselves and it will be fait acompli (cannot be undone). Dr. Thaksin could be back in Thailand by next May applying to the courts to unfreeze and return the money they took from him, become a 'party list' MP, and then be voted in as PM by June. The Senate must CHANGE the bill for the 180 day rule to not be applicable. If the Senate votes for the bill now, it means the want Dr. Thaksin to return now, If they vote to return the bill 'as is', it means they want Dr. Thaksin to return in six months. If they modify the bill so that leaders and politicians are exempt, then it means they truly don't want Dr. Thaksin to return and then the onus is on the Lower House to prove the whole 'amnesty' plan is not a scheme, to return the former PM, and pass and honest amnesty bill. My money is on the Senate having Dr. T return in 180 days so they can plead innocent.

[jdinasia]

Dolly you may want to check your last "fact" as PTP does not, in fact, have 50%+ of the House.

[rametindallas]

Am getting a bit confused here. So 40 cowardly senators fail to show up, so then the senate does not really have to vote on a bill that is " unpopular".

They didn't fail to show up because of cowardice.

These senators were making a point that they are not going to be pushed around by Yingluck and company, and will arrive on Monday when the date was set for the vote. Just because the government has put themselves into an awful and vulnerable position, doesn't mean that they can bully the senators into action at their whim. Let the government stew in their own treacherous juices a few days.

In fact, the senators are being very brave in what they are doing, not cowardly. You have it wrong.

I second that.

May I add that the Group of 40 were also concerned that many senators who were abroad couldn't possibly be back on a short notice on such a tight schedule.

It's not like the Group of 40 deliberately postphoned the meeting. They only wanted to keep the original schedule - the coming Monday - that was originally informed to all senators.

As for accusation of the Group of 40 wanting to stir up things, it's really a nonissue and irrelevant. If the people don't object the bill, they won't come out to protest anyway. No?

I will wait to see how they vote. Some Senators are performing a Kabuki dance to fool the people into not holding them accountable when, after sending the bill back to the Lower House unchanged, that Dr. Thaksin and the Puea Thai party are amnestied on a 50% +1 vote in 180 days. If they send the bill back unchanged, they are not killing the bill but delaying the inevitable and then they will say it is not them but the Lower House that is to blame.

[Ricardo]

Because they were denied the right to propose amendments, for the second & third readings, and not allowed to speak out against them, while they were being rushed-through in an all-night-sitting by the 'neutral' Speaker & his Deputies, perhaps ?

Better to refuse to vote, in protest against the undemocratic tactics of PTP & the Speaker, than to give the appearance of it having been in-any-way democratic, good for the Dems !

So it was the PTP that was filibustering for 18 hours of debate not the dems. How else could it be if they coudn't say a word during that entire time? Has anybody got footage of the debate that can prove this version of events, where the dems weren't allowed to say a word for 18 hours?

Happily my use of the 'Ignore-option' means I miss most of your posts !

You need to re-read the reports, of how the 2nd & 3rd readings were pushed through, in one long session.

And remove your head from your fundiment.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

So assuming the senate on Monday votes down the bill before it .

Then the house can revote on it after 180 days.

However PT and the parasite parties have promised to drop this bill and not to revisit it after 180 days.

BUT, is there anything to stop them introducing another (No 8) amnesty bill after they think thing have calmed down enough ?

Yes. The rule states they cannot propose a similar bill also during the 180 days. If the Senate merely votes no and sends the bill back, it sits in Limbo and in 180 days the Lower House alone (with 50% +1 votes) can exonerate Dr. Thaksin and themselves and it will be fait acompli (cannot be undone). Dr. Thaksin could be back in Thailand by next May applying to the courts to unfreeze and return the money they took from him, become a 'party list' MP, and then be voted in as PM by June. The Senate must CHANGE the bill for the 180 day rule to not be applicable. If the Senate votes for the bill now, it means the want Dr. Thaksin to return now, If they vote to return the bill 'as is', it means they want Dr. Thaksin to return in six months. If they modify the bill so that leaders and politicians are exempt, then it means they truly don't want Dr. Thaksin to return and then the onus is on the Lower House to prove the whole 'amnesty' plan is not a scheme, to return the former PM, and pass and honest amnesty bill. My money is on the Senate having Dr. T return in 180 days so they can plead innocent.

Although I don't necessarily agree with all your verbal flourishes, I think what you've laid out above is a pretty accurate assessment of the different routes this issue can go, depending on how the Senate acts in the days ahead.

"Rejecting" might be the easiest and simplistic approach that many people might ignorantly think is the right one. But as you've correctly laid out, a Senate rejection might well just be a 180-day delay to allow the street protest to disappear and then ram amnesty through for all the various crooks and criminals.

The only missing element, I think, is that the Constitutional Court, at least as long as one continues to exist here with real authority, could always ultimately rule that Parliament's handling of this has been unconstitutional in any variety of ways. Hopefully, the process will be halted before it ever gets to that point.

Edited November 9, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[muchogra]

Why most people don't see is beyond me!

After180 days, can not the bill re-enacted or modified to some extent due to: POPULAR DEMAND?

The bandwagon has already been set rolling in the provinces.

Many voters are not like you guys who are neither blind nor deaf. Many out there are blind but NOT deaf. Most propaganda statements target them and not you!

Edited November 9, 2013 by muchogra

[hellodolly]

Why most people don't see is beyond me!

After180 days, can not the bill re-enacted or modified to some extent due to: POPULAR DEMAND?

The bandwagon has already been set rolling in the provinces.

Many voters are not like you guys who are neither blind nor deaf. Many out there are blind but NOT deaf. Most propaganda statements target them and not you!

What you say is true.

But the very fact they are cranking up the propaganda machine goes to show that more of the people are aware of the shenanigans they are pulling off and trying to pull off.

The ball has started rolling and in time it will pick up speed. The PTP may get elected again but it will not have the backing it enjoys now. In the future the Government will be held more accountable for their actions. No matter what party they are. The people are starting to wake up.

[tominbkk]

Why most people don't see is beyond me!

After180 days, can not the bill re-enacted or modified to some extent due to: POPULAR DEMAND?

The bandwagon has already been set rolling in the provinces.

Many voters are not like you guys who are neither blind nor deaf. Many out there are blind but NOT deaf. Most propaganda statements target them and not you!

Except Thaksin has lost a lot of his base and love. Plus he's not paying the red sheeple as much as he used to. The bills for his palace in Dubai are really dear!

Edited November 9, 2013 by tominbkk

[TPI]

Let the man come back, give him back his money, let him take his revenge, we're farang...it doesn't affect us too much? Just keep well away from the city...the blood will flow no matter what we do or think! Cynical! IMMHO

[MaxLee]

Senators are the worst kind of scum in Thailand. Why should they ever worry, as long as they get their money under the table and brawl for free in parliament and watch porn on I-pads all day long???

[snorkelador]

Senators are the worst kind of scum in Thailand. Why should they ever worry, as long as they get their money under the table and brawl for free in parliament and watch porn on I-pads all day long???

Max, I cannot help but think that you completely confuse MP (member of parliament) with senator or possibly do not even know there is a difference?

[Siripon]

So assuming the senate on Monday votes down the bill before it .

Then the house can revote on it after 180 days.

However PT and the parasite parties have promised to drop this bill and not to revisit it after 180 days.

BUT, is there anything to stop them introducing another (No 8) amnesty bill after they think thing have calmed down enough ?

I really don't think they can reintroduce a bill like this again, too many people are aware of its contents. It's easy for the Bangkokians to protest in their lunchtimes or after work, however many busloads of people Pheua Thai bring to Bangkok.

[ballpoint]

So assuming the senate on Monday votes down the bill before it .

Then the house can revote on it after 180 days.

However PT and the parasite parties have promised to drop this bill and not to revisit it after 180 days.

BUT, is there anything to stop them introducing another (No 8) amnesty bill after they think thing have calmed down enough ?

I really don't think they can reintroduce a bill like this again, too many people are aware of its contents. It's easy for the Bangkokians to protest in their lunchtimes or after work, however many busloads of people Pheua Thai bring to Bangkok.

So they have six months to move the capital to Isaan before reintroducing the bill.

[marcusd]

 

 The so-called Group of 40 dissident senators boycotted the meeting, saying they wanted to wait until Monday to debate the amnesty bill, as per the original schedule. Amid the lack of quorum, the Senate speaker waited for more senators to join the meeting and meantime allowed members to discuss the bill. The meeting broke for a recess at 4.30pm.

Senate Speaker Nikom Wairatpanij later met with the Group of 40 and failed to convince them to attend the meeting. Nikom resumed the meeting and told the chamber a consensus had been reached between both wings of the upper House to reject the bill in its first reading on Monday at 10am. The Speaker's words brought vocal protests from senators who wanted to continue with the debate.

 

So how much did those greedy senators get paid under the table by the Pheu Thai secret staging ground Thaksin dogs???

 

Senators in Thaiand are the crap and disgrace of Thailand... 

 

Wait until Monday???? What the hell are you guys dreaming about. It was crystal clear that the delay game is starting right now, and I wouldn't be surprise if the crappy senators will delay it again and again and again... and that will ignite an upcoming civil revolution... oh ohh...

 

 

so if the Senate doesn't kill the bill, the bill carries on?  does this mean things are going to escalate?  

 

 

Very much likely. Those senators are greedy to the ground up their behinds....

time to visit another country.... Tahiti looks nice....

Sent from my RM-892_apac_laos_thailand_219 using Tapatalk

[A1Str8]

These people are in urgent need to grow a pair.

[marcusd]

Even if the missunderstood fugitive would get his amnesty and could return to Thailand, he would never be/feel save there. And even if he would not be killed by people, stress will do the job.

 

What puzzles me, and maybe several others, is why Thaksin would want to return to Thailand. He has more money than he could actually spend (even if he financed his sister's shopping),  and could flit from place to place anywhere in the World. He should learn the rule of diminishing returns. Why stay on the treadmill for not a lot more?

there is more to be sqirrelled away. Thailand theoretically borrow more government money overseas and that could go in advisory fees... To sins

Sent from my RM-892_apac_laos_thailand_219 using Tapatalk

[howzat]

A key debate and spineless politicians don't even show up. When the going gets tough everybody f…s off.

I can assure Yingluck and her band of no hopers that she and her funny little brother in Dubai that they have turned Thailand into the laughing stock of the world who have no interest in what is going on here. For most expats living here we just sit back and watch the entertainment rather than like an amateurish Thai TV soap.

Funny how the world is rallying to the Philippine Typhoon disaster but the floods here in 2011were hardly reported in the world's press. I wonder why.

[Thait Spot]

So what are the odds on the bill being amended to it's original form tomorrow and sending the hot potato back?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ridkun]

My understanding was that all the proposed legislation was withdrawn yesterday by the people who had put it up and the vote was 310 to 1 to accept the withdrawal so why is it now in the senate?

As far as I know once it was sent to the senate it's up to them to deal with it so there wasn't anything that could be done about withdrawing it. That's my limited understanding anyway.

Kimamey is correct. The lower house has passed the bill, and it's written nowhere in the constitution that they can withdraw it.

Maoro, there were many amnesty bills lurking in the lower house, 6 of the kind actually, and they withdrew all of them except the controversial one that they have no power to do so anymore after they passed it. The point is they would do anything to stop the protest, and withdrawing unrelated amnesty bills would make a good headline in the news.

[ridkun]

So what are the odds on the bill being amended to it's original form tomorrow and sending the hot potato back?

Odds are minuscule. They would need to form a commission for amendment, consisting of senates and representatives, and I'm sure no senates want to get involve with that. Too bad the protesters came out too early, we won't see true colours of some senates by current situation. Cannot blame senates anyway, they have all right to reject the bill and have the PTP dealt of what they have done.

[mrtoad]

Yingluck and her Criminal caddy will try to get this through anyway they can. If it gets rejected, it will still be back on the table in 180 days. PTP have been very disingenuous about withdrawing the bill, however some will fall for it, and not see through the Kwai shit that is really happening.

[Arkady]

so if the Senate doesn't kill the bill, the bill carries on? does this mean things are going to escalate?

Even if the Senate rejects it, Parliament can vote to pass it after 180 days anyway. If Senate votes to amend it, it has to go back to another vetting committee in the house before they vote on it again. So the main options are probably:

1) Senate rejects the bill. Pheua Thai claims not to support it any more but will probably try to pass it steathily in the wee hours again.

2) The Senate votes to amend it. Sends it back to Parliament in its orginal form without amnesty for 25,000 corruption cases. PT pretends to go along with that but at the 11th hour again makes a blanket amnesty.

3) As 2 above but the PT goes along with the Senate's amendments and passes the bill in its orginal form. Bad news for Thaksin and other corrupt politicians hoping for amnesty because it is now going to be virtually impossible to pass a new law purely for them. LOL>

[MaxLee]

Or, no 4, the army gets paid under the table, the tanks roll on the streets of Bangkok and it's reset button all over again...

Demands a heavy sacrifice of well informed individuals, keeps the obedient sheep together, and saves FACE for the rich and powerful elite again....

Edited November 10, 2013 by MaxLee

[kimamey]

So assuming the senate on Monday votes down the bill before it .

Then the house can revote on it after 180 days.

However PT and the parasite parties have promised to drop this bill and not to revisit it after 180 days.

BUT, is there anything to stop them introducing another (No 8) amnesty bill after they think thing have calmed down enough ?

Yes. The rule states they cannot propose a similar bill also during the 180 days. If the Senate merely votes no and sends the bill back, it sits in Limbo and in 180 days the Lower House alone (with 50% +1 votes) can exonerate Dr. Thaksin and themselves and it will be fait acompli (cannot be undone). Dr. Thaksin could be back in Thailand by next May applying to the courts to unfreeze and return the money they took from him, become a 'party list' MP, and then be voted in as PM by June. The Senate must CHANGE the bill for the 180 day rule to not be applicable. If the Senate votes for the bill now, it means the want Dr. Thaksin to return now, If they vote to return the bill 'as is', it means they want Dr. Thaksin to return in six months. If they modify the bill so that leaders and politicians are exempt, then it means they truly don't want Dr. Thaksin to return and then the onus is on the Lower House to prove the whole 'amnesty' plan is not a scheme, to return the former PM, and pass and honest amnesty bill. My money is on the Senate having Dr. T return in 180 days so they can plead innocent.

Although Thaksin would seem to be the main aim of this amnesty it's Abhisit and Suthep who are the ones who are key to this.

Many don't want to see Thaksin come back whitewashed but not enough to stop the amnesty. What has tipped the balance in my view is the inclusion of Abhisit and Suthep because even many red shirts and government supporters don't want them to get an amnesty and aren't willing to give up that view for Thaksin's benefit. If the Dems had agreed to support the amnesty for Thaksin in exchange for including Thaksin then it would probably have gone through.

So long as a way can't be found to include Thaksin and the red shirts but not Abhisit and Suthep then this will always be difficult to get through.

[JRSoul]

So assuming the senate on Monday votes down the bill before it .

Then the house can revote on it after 180 days.

However PT and the parasite parties have promised to drop this bill and not to revisit it after 180 days.

BUT, is there anything to stop them introducing another (No 8) amnesty bill after they think thing have calmed down enough ?

Yes. The rule states they cannot propose a similar bill also during the 180 days. If the Senate merely votes no and sends the bill back, it sits in Limbo and in 180 days the Lower House alone (with 50% +1 votes) can exonerate Dr. Thaksin and themselves and it will be fait acompli (cannot be undone). Dr. Thaksin could be back in Thailand by next May applying to the courts to unfreeze and return the money they took from him, become a 'party list' MP, and then be voted in as PM by June. The Senate must CHANGE the bill for the 180 day rule to not be applicable. If the Senate votes for the bill now, it means the want Dr. Thaksin to return now, If they vote to return the bill 'as is', it means they want Dr. Thaksin to return in six months. If they modify the bill so that leaders and politicians are exempt, then it means they truly don't want Dr. Thaksin to return and then the onus is on the Lower House to prove the whole 'amnesty' plan is not a scheme, to return the former PM, and pass and honest amnesty bill. My money is on the Senate having Dr. T return in 180 days so they can plead innocent.

Although Thaksin would seem to be the main aim of this amnesty it's Abhisit and Suthep who are the ones who are key to this.

Many don't want to see Thaksin come back whitewashed but not enough to stop the amnesty. What has tipped the balance in my view is the inclusion of Abhisit and Suthep because even many red shirts and government supporters don't want them to get an amnesty and aren't willing to give up that view for Thaksin's benefit. If the Dems had agreed to support the amnesty for Thaksin in exchange for including Thaksin then it would probably have gone through.

So long as a way can't be found to include Thaksin and the red shirts but not Abhisit and Suthep then this will always be difficult to get through.

For Abhisit and Suthep to accept the amnesty they would have to accept the character assassination claim that they are murderers. Why would they do that when the charge is based on a ridiculous assumption that they acted as individuals and not as office holders, and which has no chance of succeeding in court.

[MaxLee]

I think this is gonna be delayed, wanna bet?...

[rubl]

Am getting a bit confused here. So 40 cowardly senators fail to show up, so then the senate does not really have to vote on a bill that is " unpopular".

They didn't fail to show up because of cowardice.

These senators were making a point that they are not going to be pushed around by Yingluck and company, and will arrive on Monday when the date was set for the vote. Just because the government has put themselves into an awful and vulnerable position, doesn't mean that they can bully the senators into action at their whim. Let the government stew in their own treacherous juices a few days.

In fact, the senators are being very brave in what they are doing, not cowardly. You have it wrong.

Just one minor correction.

Monday 11th was/is the date set for the Senate to start debating the 'blanket amnesty' bill. The Senate is at liberty to take days or even close to a month to continue deliberations before voting.