Have you ever been financially screwed over by a fellow expat?

[Shoeboat]

I've heard many stories of farangs screwing over other farangs during my decade here. Creative people especially are often vulnerable to the type of people that have absolutely no qualms when it comes to using somebody's talent and time to their own benefit then leaving them without a penny.

In my case, I was offered a position with the promise of a work permit by an acquaintance I trusted. A young Australian woman I often socialized with that has failed to deliver on the work permit and paperwork issue and after two months of on and off web designing and photography she has pulled the plug on the entire project and decided to hire somebody else following a fallout which was caused, rightfully so, by my discontent at being asked to do additional work having yet to receive any compensation.

Since there was no contract or deposit, it seems I am well and truly screwed. Or am I? I have plenty of evidence from emails and texts not to mention the work itself to support my claim, but can any of this be used toward a satisfactory outcome?

I would be happy to sell the debt if it were possible to do so. As much as I need the money, the justice is far more important to me.

I'd especially like to hear from members who have any tales of comeuppance regarding such exploitation.

[CharlieH]

As the saying goes, "two sides to every story" , put it down to experience, learn from it, move on.

Dont forget it though, you may never know what "opportunites" may arise in the future, Karma can be a bitch!

[ukrules]

She's probably doing the same thing to your replacement.

Just report her diretly to the immigration police for employing foreigners without work permits and let the chips fall where they may.

[Shoeboat]

I thought of that.

She does actually employ a gaggle of Fillipino girls, I don't know if they have work permits or not but either way I wouldn't want to affect them negatively in any way, they have done me no wrong.

Her side of the story would be that I refused to shoot more footage and spoke to her in an unpleasant tone on the phone and that she doesn't want to know me anymore.

[ukrules]

If the Filipino's don't have permits then she's probably just exploiting them like she did to you.

Edited November 25, 2013 by ukrules

[bifftastic]

Were rates of pay agreed before you started? Do you know exactly how much she owes you and, more importantly I think, does she actually have the money?

If she doesn't then there's not much point, for anyone other than yourself, in you selling the debt.

[Shoeboat]

Were rates of pay agreed before you started? Do you know exactly how much she owes you and, more importantly I think, does she actually have the money?

If she doesn't then there's not much point, for anyone other than yourself, in you selling the debt.

She doesn't pay the Pinoys much but she does pay them. They've been with her for a couple of years now so they could well be legit.

She will definitely have the money but will be extra reluctant to pay having recently paid several hundred thousand baht to PriceWaterhouseCoopers for their services and investing in uniforms for her staff. She's had an expensive couple of months but her business is well established.

I'm owed a discounted rate of 20k which was way to generous as it is but I've had a quiet year. It is because of this she viewed the work as doing me a favour, which isn't a very professional attitude. My fee was made very clear and neither her nor her Thai business partner had any objections. The refusal to pay is for personal reasons, its simply because she didn't like my tone and doesn't want to be my friend aymore. She's 31 by the way.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Shoeboat

[i claudius]

Yes by a company owned by a Brit couple ,they lied and cheated not just to me (i only lost commision) the client lost a fortune .

[arthurwait]

I doubt you have a leg to stand on as you were working without a work permit or visa.

[bifftastic]

I would start by invoicing her (if you haven't already).

I would invoice for the full rate and then discount to the ฿20,000

Detail all the work you have already done on the invoice, so that it is clear that the extra work she tried to get you to do wasn't covered by the original agreement.

Give reasonable payment terms, say 14 days, make sure that her business partner also has a copy of the invoice.

It's hard to be polite and professional in these kinds of circumstances, but it's worth trying

When she doesn't pay it, then you can start thinking about who can collect it for you.

It's not a great deal of money, but I agree, it's the principle of the thing really.

[bifftastic]

double post

Edited November 25, 2013 by bifftastic

[HardenedSoul]

I doubt you have a leg to stand on as you were working without a work permit or visa.

Yep, that's pretty much it.

By all means do what Bifftastic suggests and be all nice and professional about it but if she tells you where to go, just move on and, next time, don't do a stitch of work until you've got a permit or at least some of the money upfront

[Gsxrnz]

I work on the following philosophy.

"No Money, No Honey".

I thought about making it into a T-Shirt motto, but not sure if it would sell.

[Bung]

Yes. My story:

I sold an KTM enduro bike to a "mate". It had been sitting and wouldn't start but I knew I took excellent care of the bike and so did he, it just needed the carb cleaning. Along with the sale was a complete top end rebuild kit which was expensive and although it ran fine and used no oil it was probably due to rebuild it using the parts supplied.

I get a phone call. He has it running but it's making all sorts of noises and sounds like the bottom end has gone. He gives me a long story about how I sold him the bike in good condition but the whole thing now needs a rebuild, blah, blah.

I go and have a look. Sounds ok to me but he is adamant the entire engine needs a full rebuild at great cost, I need to give him back 8000 to help. He's a well known off road racer with a lot of experience with KTM,s. I say ok, pull the whole thing down then and have a look feeling guilty the engine toast.

He rebuilds the engine using the parts I supplied, nothing wrong with the bottom end and he sells the bike on. Do I get my 8000 baht back? Of course not, never hear from him again. He's now left Thailand. I'm left feeling ripped off trying to do the right thing and this guy gets 8000 off the agreed price which was already pretty good. It was only 8000 but you think it's a mate your dealing with....

Anyway, watch out. I have never seen so many Farangs ripping of Farangs as I have seen in Thailand. It's incredible.

[Beetlejuice]

To the OP:

Did you actually begin working for this woman in Thailand without first obtaining your work permit?

Are you out any money? Such as, did you pay this woman any fees for the work permit application or other expenses?

Is this woman`s company strictly above board in Thailand? Meaning, it is registered, does she have a work permit and does she file tax returns every year?

Does the sort of work involved, fall under the permitted work in Thailand for foreigners acts?

Before answering the OP`s questions, we really need to know the above first.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[Shoeboat]

To the OP:

Did you actually begin working for this woman in Thailand without first obtaining your work permit?

Are you out any money? Such as, did you pay this woman any fees for the work permit application or other expenses?

Is this woman`s company strictly above board in Thailand? Meaning, it is registered, does she have a work permit and does she file tax returns every year?

Does the sort of work involved, fall under the permitted work in Thailand for foreigners acts?

Before answering the OP`s questions, we really need to know the above first.

To your first point - Yes I did, in fact I know of very few companies (if any) who will offer a work permit immediately. If everybody stuck by those rules then the only foreigners living here would be those posted here by overseas companies. Does it count as work though if I haven't been paid? If it does then I may as well turn myself into the police every time I help a friend move apartment or write an email.

I am not out of money, have never been in debt or broke but have been living off emergency savings most of the year.

This woman's company is well on the way to being above board. It is a medical tourism company that pampers those wishing to come here for cosmetic surgery.

I have no idea if the work involved comes under something that was written up by other self interested parties. We humans do what we can to survive and doing it by helping each other out is better than doing it by harming others. The powers the be who wrote this up are I'm sure more interested in the Nigerians that are constantly hassling people to buy drugs on Sukhumvit in the early hours, or the countless illicit activity that goes on here, so why would they really care about some guy doing a bit of web design or photography to make ends meet, unless they were amoral self interested criminals with more right then us or their fellow people to have a place in this world! The word 'legal' is something I take seriously in Thailand because what is and what isn't is decided by such saintly paragons of human virtue.

[Beetlejuice]

To the OP:

Did you actually begin working for this woman in Thailand without first obtaining your work permit?

Are you out any money? Such as, did you pay this woman any fees for the work permit application or other expenses?

Is this woman`s company strictly above board in Thailand? Meaning, it is registered, does she have a work permit and does she file tax returns every year?

Does the sort of work involved, fall under the permitted work in Thailand for foreigners acts?

Before answering the OP`s questions, we really need to know the above first.

To your first point - Yes I did, in fact I know of very few companies (if any) who will offer a work permit immediately. If everybody stuck by those rules then the only foreigners living here would be those posted here by overseas companies. Does it count as work though if I haven't been paid? If it does then I may as well turn myself into the police every time I help a friend move apartment or write an email.

I am not out of money, have never been in debt or broke but have been living off emergency savings most of the year.

This woman's company is well on the way to being above board. It is a medical tourism company that pampers those wishing to come here for cosmetic surgery.

I have no idea if the work involved comes under something that was written up by other self interested parties. We humans do what we can to survive and doing it by helping each other out is better than doing it by harming others. The powers the be who wrote this up are I'm sure more interested in the Nigerians that are constantly hassling people to buy drugs on Sukhumvit in the early hours, or the countless illicit activity that goes on here, so why would they really care about some guy doing a bit of web design or photography to make ends meet, unless they were amoral self interested criminals with more right then us or their fellow people to have a place in this world! The word 'legal' is something I take seriously in Thailand because what is and what isn't is decided by such saintly paragons of human virtue.

To your first point - Yes I did, in fact I know of very few companies (if any) who will offer a work permit immediately. If everybody stuck by those rules then the only foreigners living here would be those posted here by overseas companies. Does it count as work though if I haven't been paid? If it does then I may as well turn myself into the police every time I help a friend move apartment or write an email.

Yes it does count even if you have not been paid, you were still working without a work permit.

I am not out of money, have never been in debt or broke but have been living off emergency savings most of the year.

That was not my question. My question meaning, did you give this woman any money as a fee to obtain your work permit or for anything else regarding the job,money for services the woman has not honoured?

This woman's company is well on the way to being above board. It is a medical tourism company that pampers those wishing to come here for cosmetic surgery.

What does that mean; being well on the way to being above board? Is it or isn`t it? If not then how could she obtain a work permit for you?

Considering the above, than to answer your question, yes, you are screwed because legally you have no case against her as the correct procedures required under Thai law were not followed.

[Showbags]

Yeah a few baht to a dodgy Canadian Architect.

But I got even.

[Shoeboat]

^ How did you get even Showbags? ...This is what I'm after, positive feedback. What I can do, not what I can't.

To Beetlejuice - I'm not expecting to have a leg to stand on legally, though if her company isn't legit then she has more to lose than I do.

I've been here over a decade and have nothing to lose, nothing keeping me here. I doubt very much i'd be jailed for working without a permit or payment of any kind, do you? And if I could be then why on earth would I want to stay?

I could be jailed for that then I could be jailed for showing my brother how to use Photoshop when he was visiting me last August, right? Correct? That too could be perceived as work. I may as well also confess while I'm at it that earlier this year I delivered a tee shirt that a friend of mine had forgotten in a bar before he went back to Koh Samui. That was technically a courier service, and I was technically paid for that because he made me chilli con carne and gave me a beer, so what should I do? Turn myself into Lumphini nick?

Bung was right - this country is notorious for foreigners ripping each other off, and it's because the odds are stacked in the favor of the corrupt and the wealthy - which is why this place is a magnet for people who simply don't belong in a fair and civilized society and an obstacle course for those who do.

[Forethat]

Yup.

Farang lived in BKK for a number of years until he reached the breaking point and started to complain about everything that was Thai. In particular, they were scam artists, all of them.

He began to arrange his departure and ended up in some sort of situation where his funds was transferred out of Thailand but he couldn't get to it and still needed cash and bla bla bladi bla... Friday night and he needed 50k to pay bla bla bla and would pay back on Monday. He left BKK with a Sunday flight. Never heard from him since.

Cheap way of learning about scammers. Worth every penny. Could have been much worse.

[FiftyTwo]

Yep ..........

About 20 expat residents have been screwed over in CM.

Our pension/trust/investment funds were raided by a dodgy expat IFA.

We lost about 2-4 million baht each, some more. (Total losses in the 100 million baht range)

He has left the country, but his dodgy expat employee is still trying for more money.

Edited November 26, 2013 by FiftyTwo

[Shoeboat]

^ Owch, Jesus 52 - what are you going to do about it?

You must be wishing a slow death on someone.

[habfan]

500 baht here 500 baht there.

These are just loans to hard luck expats and most of the time I never expect to be payed back.

[richard_smith237]

Its not really scammed but I've been at the wrong end of being taken for a few beers...

This guy, a friend of a friend used to come out drinking with us. He would drink loads but not pay his fair share and be reluctant to pay at all !.

A couple of times we went to cowboy - the first time the bill was larger than expected, we'd had to share in his fun when the lady drinks he'd bought were placed on our group tab (7 of us).

A few weeks later, back in cowboy again this friend of a friend takes his seat at the bar, we order our drinks and I indicated to the bar staff that his bill is separate.

When the time for the bill came, our bill was fine. However, he was upset, there was no way he'd drank that much or ordered that many lady drinks !... (his bill was correct - He'd just expect it to be shared with us).

Funnily enough he never joined us drinking again and I for one was relieved to get rid of a freeloader.

[Showbags]

^ How

Bugger..sorry screwed up quote, anyway, it was a multiple attack.

He accidentally sent me an email with ALL his work related and a few friends, email address' in it as cc.

I sent a detailed email off to him complaining about everything he had done to me and to others, incompetence to the max....then I accidentally hit reply ALL....by accident, accidentally like.

He was embarrassed by it all, he lost some work from it all and a friend or 2 and a significant amount of respect.

I also punched him in the nose a couple of years later when I ran into him.

[HardenedSoul]

^ How did you get even Showbags? ...This is what I'm after, positive feedback. What I can do, not what I can't.

To Beetlejuice - I'm not expecting to have a leg to stand on legally, though if her company isn't legit then she has more to lose than I do.

I've been here over a decade and have nothing to lose, nothing keeping me here. I doubt very much i'd be jailed for working without a permit or payment of any kind, do you? And if I could be then why on earth would I want to stay?

I could be jailed for that then I could be jailed for showing my brother how to use Photoshop when he was visiting me last August, right? Correct? That too could be perceived as work. I may as well also confess while I'm at it that earlier this year I delivered a tee shirt that a friend of mine had forgotten in a bar before he went back to Koh Samui. That was technically a courier service, and I was technically paid for that because he made me chilli con carne and gave me a beer, so what should I do? Turn myself into Lumphini nick?

Bung was right - this country is notorious for foreigners ripping each other off, and it's because the odds are stacked in the favor of the corrupt and the wealthy - which is why this place is a magnet for people who simply don't belong in a fair and civilized society and an obstacle course for those who do.

Ignore BJ, mate. He's not a bad bloke but just insanely smug and holier-than-thou.

Still, sometimes the angry tone of his posts can lead one to believe that he's nowhere near as sorted as he makes out.

[rayongchelsea]

interior designer..I was very trusting..money upfront..had to threaten court proceedings..took me for about 100k of non delivered work..

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Beetlejuice]

^ How did you get even Showbags? ...This is what I'm after, positive feedback. What I can do, not what I can't.

To Beetlejuice - I'm not expecting to have a leg to stand on legally, though if her company isn't legit then she has more to lose than I do.

I've been here over a decade and have nothing to lose, nothing keeping me here. I doubt very much i'd be jailed for working without a permit or payment of any kind, do you? And if I could be then why on earth would I want to stay?

I could be jailed for that then I could be jailed for showing my brother how to use Photoshop when he was visiting me last August, right? Correct? That too could be perceived as work. I may as well also confess while I'm at it that earlier this year I delivered a tee shirt that a friend of mine had forgotten in a bar before he went back to Koh Samui. That was technically a courier service, and I was technically paid for that because he made me chilli con carne and gave me a beer, so what should I do? Turn myself into Lumphini nick?

Bung was right - this country is notorious for foreigners ripping each other off, and it's because the odds are stacked in the favor of the corrupt and the wealthy - which is why this place is a magnet for people who simply don't belong in a fair and civilized society and an obstacle course for those who do.

I`m not saying that you would be jailed for anything, you are placing meanings into my posts that are not there. I am only answering your question and also considering that this deal was all done on trust and a sort of gentleman`s agreement, than I doubt that you have any ways of seeking any compensation from this woman at all.

I don`t make the laws, I am only telling it to you how it is, the reality and whatever you do and however you do things in these situations you do so at your own risk and discretion. Otherwise what else you would prefer to hear?

Personally I would never get myself involved with these sorts of people and these so-called schemes, you learn your lessons in life, once bitten, 1000 times shy.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[Shoeboat]

^ That's much better, and apologies if I was a little over defensive earlier but certain types of posters can at times make you feel like you're in the wrong just for being human. I'd better stop there or this'll be my last post.

[Chonburiram]

A 31 y.o. women cheated on you? I know what I would do...