Thai Police Water Cannon 'Not Chemical Weapon'

[Prbkk]

What do they expect, Evian with a hint of lemon?

[noitom]

Ever tried drinking tap water in Thailand ? It is like a nuke, guarantee to land you in the hospital , no need to add anything else .

I seriously doubt police filled water canons with drinking or filtered water

Right, a glass of Thai tap water. The body seizes up immediately, fever, shakes, stomach disorder and possible death.

[HuaHinHarold]

What do they expect, Evian with a hint of lemon?

Is it too much to expect to have plain water that has not had chemicals with potentially adverse health effects added to it?

You know, like everywhere else in the world.

Edited December 3, 2013 by HuaHinHarold

[Prbkk]

Good Lord, we are talking about a minor dilution with Condy's Crystals, not a deadly poison. And this sprayed on the thugs who were planning the use a suction device to empty to contents of a sewerage truck on the Police.

What do they expect, Evian with a hint of lemon?

Is it too much to expect to have plain water that has not had chemicals with potentially adverse health effects added to it?

You know, like everywhere else in the world.

[55Jay]

Aren't these substances present in whitening cream?

[Tokay]

I bet if Suthep sees a pair of boobs, he will scream "land mines!".

He would scream, "Booby trap!!!"

Sorry if this has already been posted, didn't read the entire thread.

[jackrich]

I bet if Suthep sees a pair of boobs, he will scream "land mines!".

He would scream, "Booby trap!!!"

Sorry if this has already been posted, didn't read the entire thread.

[jaidam]

Just because a weapon contains harmful chemicals, does not make it a chemical weapon? Really? It sounds like the very definition of a chemical weapon to me. Sickening that it was used on peaceful protesters doing their best to improve governance and democracy.

[JoeThePoster]

Thai Police Water Cannon 'Not Chemical Weapon'

Just 100% pure khlong water.

[HuaHinHarold]

What do they expect, Evian with a hint of lemon?

Is it too much to expect to have plain water that has not had chemicals with potentially adverse health effects added to it?

You know, like everywhere else in the world.

Good Lord, we are talking about a minor dilution with Condy's Crystals, not a deadly poison.

.

Putting aside for a moment that it is not an innocuous substance:

With a nickname like Condy's crystals and bright purple color, potassium permanganate sounds more like a confection than a highly caustic chemical used to treat infections. Potassium permanganate sells by prescription only.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/247213-medical-uses-for-potassium-permanganate/

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Could you please share with us what precise dilution the police were using when you witnessed their mixing?

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Edited December 4, 2013 by HuaHinHarold

[Prbkk]

While the sale of it in bulk is now restricted for reasons well known , in small quantities it is available in most garden and farm stores....without any prescription at all. Useful stuff.

[meechai]

Could you please share with us what precise dilution the police were using when you witnessed their mixing?

Who gives a #%$@ ? This mob has had it so easy it is not funny

Anywhere else in the world they would be hit with batons,Tasers & worse.

Then they would be zip tied & put where they belong. This is no peaceful demonstration.

This mornings news shows what they were hurling at the cops.

That any group in any country can attack police & overtake government buildings

is a sad reflection on misguided tolerance for mobs gone wild here.

But no need to worry about the mob as it seems the police are going to surrender now.

TIT

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/57sASURGV1EdLDIBl4qURN/Bangkok-police-remove-barriers-to-defuse-antigovt-rallies.html

[Thai at Heart]

The chemicals put in the water are designed to have an effect on humans - It is supposed to cause them to have something happen. We need more information but it should be investigated by Human Rights Watch and the UN Chemical Weapons engineers. The US should be going crazy and should speak out against this use of chemical weapons against humans.

I posted a tweet from Sunai from Human Rights Watch earlier in the thread. This is standard practice and nothing to be concerned about. Here's a Wired article about the practice.

"The British first experimented with adding dye to water cannon in Belfast in the 1970's, but did not pursue the idea. However, many other countries have taken to using water cannon loaded with indelible dye as a means of marking protesters for future arrest, as well as making them look ridiculous.

A whole rainbow of colours has been used. In Uganda earlier this year pink dye was employed to humiliate protesters. In Israel, Palestinian rioters may expect a spray of deep blue, the colour of the Israeli flag. The Hungarian police use green, the Koreans orange."

Just so that we comparing like with like, did you find anywhere in your research a situation where these two chemicals, as opposed to dye, were infused with the tear gas?

Potassium permanganate

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator).

Possibly corrosive to eyes and skin.

Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness.

Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.

Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing.

Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.

Prolonged exposure may result in skin burns and ulcerations.

Over-exposure by inhalation may cause respiratory irritation.

http://www.sciencela...?msdsId=9927406

Sodium thiosulphate

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: May cause eye irritation.

Skin: May cause skin irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.

Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed.

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May be harmful if inhaled.

http://www.ch.ntu.ed...zoom=auto,0,410

Ironically these substances are known antiseptics or anti fungal agents.

So they probably made the water relatively safer. If you were thinking to spray a crowd with klong water, you would sterilise it too.

Quite considerate of them actually.

[HuaHinHarold]

While the sale of it in bulk is now restricted for reasons well known , in small quantities it is available in most garden and farm stores....without any prescription at all. Useful stuff.

Again, how much was used and in what dilution.

It's useful stuff in the proper quantities for a proper task. We also know it's harmful in other quantities and unknown effects in a task where no one has shown it to be used, unless you have any knowledge of it being used in the manner the police used it in Thailand.

Perhaps if it ever gets clarified, we can begin discussing sodium thiosulfate, the other chemical involved that also has potential adverse health effects.

[HuaHinHarold]

Could you please share with us what precise dilution the police were using when you witnessed their mixing?

Who gives a #%$@ ?

Obviously, not you.

[HuaHinHarold]

The chemicals put in the water are designed to have an effect on humans - It is supposed to cause them to have something happen. We need more information but it should be investigated by Human Rights Watch and the UN Chemical Weapons engineers. The US should be going crazy and should speak out against this use of chemical weapons against humans.

I posted a tweet from Sunai from Human Rights Watch earlier in the thread. This is standard practice and nothing to be concerned about. Here's a Wired article about the practice.

"The British first experimented with adding dye to water cannon in Belfast in the 1970's, but did not pursue the idea. However, many other countries have taken to using water cannon loaded with indelible dye as a means of marking protesters for future arrest, as well as making them look ridiculous.

A whole rainbow of colours has been used. In Uganda earlier this year pink dye was employed to humiliate protesters. In Israel, Palestinian rioters may expect a spray of deep blue, the colour of the Israeli flag. The Hungarian police use green, the Koreans orange."

Just so that we comparing like with like, did you find anywhere in your research a situation where these two chemicals, as opposed to dye, were infused with the tear gas?

Potassium permanganate

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator).

Possibly corrosive to eyes and skin.

Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness.

Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.

Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing.

Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.

Prolonged exposure may result in skin burns and ulcerations.

Over-exposure by inhalation may cause respiratory irritation.

http://www.sciencela...?msdsId=9927406

Sodium thiosulphate

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: May cause eye irritation.

Skin: May cause skin irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.

Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed.

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May be harmful if inhaled.

http://www.ch.ntu.ed...zoom=auto,0,410

Ironically these substances are known antiseptics or anti fungal agents.

Actually, these substances have a multitude of purposes, not all of which are medical.

Obviously, from the above information, it's not hard to see these substances are not wholly innocuous and that in certain dilutions are quite dangerous.

Not a lot of faith in the police to be astute enough to handle these or any other chemicals in the proper fashion.

.

[newcomer71]

You go out, protest against the police, try to storm security barriers, throw stones and fireworks... and you agree to be hit with water cannons and tear gas. That is the name of the game in any such violent protests worldwide.

You get what you ask for, simple as that. Thailand, Europe (including Switzerland), US of A... police all do exactly the same thing, so don't whine when you are hit with something unpleasant when attacking the police.

They are admitting to putting chemicals in the water cannons so that in effect makes is more than just a water cannot.

"But Ms. Chantana Padungtos, MD, an official from Department of Disease Control which operates under Ministry of Public Health, said the water has been mixed with a colourful and hard-to-clean chemical in order to identify the aggressive protesters and arrest them later, if the police chose to do so.

Ink, that dangerous chemical is called ink. And it's used by many other police forces in the world.

Let's not make a tragedy about a standard procedure.

And let's hope that this protest is over... so no need to use water cannon again.

[pacovl46]

If they got the water from any of the Klongs then it would certainly classify as a "biological" weapon. ;-)

[DocN]

Thai Police Water Cannon 'Not Chemical Weapon'

Just 100% pure khlong water.

OH-MY-GOD

[HuaHinHarold]

You go out, protest against the police, try to storm security barriers, throw stones and fireworks... and you agree to be hit with water cannons and tear gas. That is the name of the game in any such violent protests worldwide.

You get what you ask for, simple as that. Thailand, Europe (including Switzerland), US of A... police all do exactly the same thing, so don't whine when you are hit with something unpleasant when attacking the police.

They are admitting to putting chemicals in the water cannons so that in effect makes is more than just a water cannot.

"But Ms. Chantana Padungtos, MD, an official from Department of Disease Control which operates under Ministry of Public Health, said the water has been mixed with a colourful and hard-to-clean chemical in order to identify the aggressive protesters and arrest them later, if the police chose to do so.

Ink, that dangerous chemical is called ink. And it's used by many other police forces in the world.

It was not ink. They was made that abundantly clear in the OP and the following multiple posts throughout the thread that address what exactly was used.

Suggest you read either or both.

It's also not been established that ANY other police force in the world uses the chemicals, not ink, that the Thai police used.

.

[meechai]

Could you please share with us what precise dilution the police were using when you witnessed their mixing?

Who gives a #%$@ ?

Obviously, not you.

True that

Because i care for the upkeep of lawful order.

If this is tolerated whats next?

They get what they want by kicking & screaming?

A hundred thousand in the streets over rules millions of votes?

So say they are successful.

Next mob does the same to reverse again ignoring law & order?

This is how spoiled children act out.

But as adults they are called criminals.

[HuaHinHarold]

Could you please share with us what precise dilution the police were using when you witnessed their mixing?

Who gives a #%$@ ?

Obviously, not you.

True that

Thanks for your input.

[Emdog]

Just because a weapon contains harmful chemicals, does not make it a chemical weapon? Really? It sounds like the very definition of a chemical weapon to me. Sickening that it was used on peaceful protesters doing their best to improve governance and democracy.

Improve governance and democracy??? By throwing out democratically elected government. Makes me think of that Vietnam war comment "We had to destroy that village in order to save it". Need to wake up to fact that a side effect of democracy is that a side loses, and they need to live with that and come up with a democratic (read: election) strategy to win the next election.

Also, water is a chemical: H2O. I went to plenty of demonstrations against the Vietnam war, and did not expect the police to treat me nicely. Got gassed plenty of times. "If you <deleted> with the bull, you get the horns".

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I don't know if doing what's described above is considered a chemical weapon or not...

But I do know this... I wouldn't really want to get sprayed at high pressure with a liquid that, as the Thai public health doctor quoted above states, has an acidity content higher than vinegar.

Back in the U.S., AFAIK, when police use water cannons, they use straight water, because it's the FORCE of the water that helps to deter and repel protesters... not mark them with dye or irritate their skin or eyes with an acidic solution.

[newcomer71]

Ink, that dangerous chemical is called ink. And it's used by many other police forces in the world.

It was not ink. They was made that abundantly clear in the OP and the following multiple posts throughout the thread that address what exactly was used.

Suggest you read either or both.

It's also not been established that ANY other police force in the world uses the chemicals, not ink, that the Thai police used.

.

"Ms. Chantana Padungtos, MD, an official from Department of Disease Control which operates under Ministry of Public Health, said the water has been mixed with a colourful and hard-to-clean chemical in order to identify the aggressive protesters and arrest them later, if the police chose to do so."

[Pacificperson]

Years ago when I was working with natural sea sponges, we used Potassium permanganate to bleach the sponges. In this case, I would guess that it has the advantage of disinfecting the water. Sodium thiosulfate was used to neutralize the permanganate. Sodium thiosulfate is also used to neutralize chlorine in drinking water so that it does not kill fish. You can put some thiosulfate in tap water and add your fish straight-up. It is sold in pet store for this purpose. It seems to me that this thread is making a mountain out of a molehill.

[OZEMADE]

CN and CS Gas are chemical agents used all over the world, mainly to quell riot situations, assist in the extraction of prisoners from cells or to assist in home assaults and hostage situations. They are an irritant. The chemical agent’s used in the water in the riots in Bangkok were basically the same as the above chemical. They are an Irritant.

Most chemical weapons are used to maim or kill. Saddam used chemical weapons and recently it was used on the Syria on the 21 August 1013.

This Chemical Weapon killed between 200 and 1700 depending on who gave the reports and hospitalized/maimed about 3500 people, some of whom will later die from the exposure.

There is a big difference between a Chemical Agent being used as an irritant to humans and a Chemical Weapon being used for mass destruction of humans.

[lachiplo]

at least these arent as potent as the water used during songkran which left me some nasty ear infection and diarrhea for days

[techboy]

Just because the Dr. Chantana, said it was not a chemical weapon does not make it so. Were does it say she was trained in the military and part of the Chemical Corp., which are the ones that develope chemical weapons. What would the world press do if they thought the Thai government used chemical weapons against innocent civilians?

A few people complaining of skin irritation make it not a chemical weapon. More likely someone who was pissed off that they got dye on themselves had the bright idea that they could stir things up by screaming about chemical weapons. "Skin injuries" indeed. But the press did not find the "injuries" to be worth detailing or photographing? <deleted>!

And your query "Were does it say she was trained in the military and part of the Chemical Corp..." What an absurd bit of logic. Do you actually believe that this is legitimate or are you just lousy at contriving invalid reasoning? One does not require military training on chemical weapons to possess reliable knowledge about harmful chemicals. Potassium permanganate is used as an antibacterial agent and sodium thiosulphate has medical uses that include an anti-fungal treatment and to counteract the effects of cyanide poisoning. Not much use as chemical weapons and all I had to do was sixty seconds of reference work to gain this knowledge- no chemical weapons training.

"Innocent civilians" is debatable in various instances and the covert use of chemical weapons that you intimate would be rather difficult. Oh yeah! Hey Doc, we tear gassed 'em all and nobody even noticed...

[Arkady]

A lot of things may be harmful in large amounts, including water itself, so that's neither here nor there really.

Doesn't sound like something worth calling the UN about. How and why would they infuse it with the tear gas? Surely the cannisters are sealed?

So then, that's a no, you didn't find another situation where those two chemicals, as opposed to dye, were infused with the tear gas.

Did you find a material safety data sheet for your example of water, which you somehow bizarrely equate to these chemicals, then?

As for how and why they would mix these chemicals, and not dye, I don't know.

All we know is that she said they were with the tear gas.

That and people here cavalierly speculating, with no posted evidence, that there are no harmful effects involved with these chemicals, even thought there are scientific material safety data sheets for each of them pointing to the potential... for harmful effects.

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I can't see where she says anything about these chemicals being mixed with tear gas. All I see is "And no tear gas was mixed into the water because tear gas cannot be used in water". I don't think anyone is actually claiming these chemicals were mixed with tear gas, are they? I think anti-govt protesters were claiming that the water contained tear gas or acid, not vice versa.

CS gas starts as CS solution before it evaporates and become tear gas. It can and is mixed with water for firing from water cannons. See this advertisement from a Korean manufacturer http://www.cnotech.com/en/bbs/board.php?bo_table=anti_riot07&wr_id=1

The Turkish police are blending Jenex which is a pepper spray for their water cannons.

The protestors requisitioned one fire truck for use as a water cannon. I wouldn't be surprised if they mix in chemicals to fire back at the police next time. The latter can hardly complain if they are on the receiving end of the same cocktail recommended as harmless by the Ministry of Public Health.

Fire trucks can also be turned into flame throwers by refilling them with gasoline as was done by students fighting police who were firing M16s at them in Oct 1973.