US citizens......do you FBAR?

[JimGant]

I know this for a fact because when I was talking to some of my professional colleagues about it, they had no clue. In fact, almost everyone in the ‘business’ is still referring to the FBAR as the paper form TDF 90-22.1. This is incorrect… and bad information now.

What profession? If in the tax business, plenty of info has circulated in professional journals and electronic bulletins. Have them subscribe to "E-news for Tax Professionals," or the AICPA's "Tax Adviser."

Also, tax professionals can now file the "FBAR" for their clients. http://www.aicpa.org/interestareas/tax/newsandpublications/taxealert/2013/pages/2013-08-09taxe-alert.aspx

If my tax professional was behind the power curve on the latest FinCEN filing procedures, I'd wonder what else he was behind on ...........

And, yeah, the form TD F 90-22 is now officially the FinCEN Report 114. But FBAR has such a nice descriptive ring to it.

[KhunG]

Not much reason to keep any money in a foreign account for the average Joe, unless for retirement requirement. Just draw for free on a US Bank via ATM. Much safer also.

Actually, we planned to move part of our investments into the Thai markets as a currency hedge. Now some investment brokers in Thailand are refusing US customers because of the cost of compliance with the US FATCA laws.

I comply with all reporting requirements. I always have. But the US threatening foreign financial institutions with penalties on their US business unless they comply with US laws while doing business outside of the US is ridiculous.

Investing specifically in the Thai market is a risky move. Why not just use a broker from a US firm where accounts are insured and invest in international funds or stocks, or Thai specific stuff if your really that confident in Thailand for some reason.

Were you told you have to transfer funds over to a Thai bank by a broker in Thailand?

I don't consider it that risky. I know several successful investers in the SET, and none of them have faced any risk other than normal market risk. I already have several US brokerage accounts and I have some investments in Thailand through closed end funds on the US markets, which have done very well, but with a Thai brokerage account I could better target my investments. Additionally, the currency hedge is of value. It takes a while for offshore funds to fully reflect major currency fluctuations like the over 25% change in the value of Thai Baht to USD that occurred between 2002 and 2008, if they ever do.

I haven't spoken to any Thai brokers, but I don't seek advise from brokers in any case. They are there as agents. I make my own investment decisions.

[KhunG]

But FBAR has such a nice descriptive ring to it.

Yes. Especially if they'd insert a 'u' between the 'F' and the 'B'.

[nputman]

And to point out yet another tax code that needs to be submitted if you have, in Thailand, what the US IRS considers as assets over 100K usd

is FATCA.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Foreign-Account-Tax-Compliance-Act-%28FATCA%29

And its not for Businesses or corporations solely.

[KhunG]

And to point out yet another tax code that needs to be submitted if you have, in Thailand, what the US IRS considers as assets over 100K usd

is FATCA.

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Corporations/Foreign-Account-Tax-Compliance-Act-%28FATCA%29

And its not for Businesses or corporations solely.

It jumps to 400K USD at the end of a year or 600K USD any time during the year once you've established Thailand as where you live. Still a pain.

[Gonsalviz]

Nothing new about this rule, has been true for many years and I have been filing for as long as I can remember. I think it came into effect right after 9/11 ?

What has changed though is can now do it online.

Why would anyone would feel a need to avoid filing unless they are guilty of either tax evasion or other crime? Filing every year for over a decade has never caused the slightest problem for me.

Because it is another control placed on us by an increasingly authoritarian government.

[maphraw]

I have three banlk accounts in Thailand and have had them for more than 12 years. Two of them are joint accounts with my Thai wife. The sum total of the three accounts is about 900,000 Baht. We also have a mutual fund with Krung Sri which is presently worth about 800,000 Baht. It also pays fairly high dividends almost every year.I have never reported any of this to the IRS or FBAR.I just never thought about it because, until recently, the money in these accounts was so little. I only report my savings in the US. After reading all of these posts, I am getting a little paranoid so I am going to have a certified account to do my income tax forms and report my Thai holdings for the 2013 tax year just to be sure. They can usually find ways around delinquint reporting.I had a problem with the IRS about three years ago and they can be relentless. They are a law unto themselves. But with the help of a tax accountant I was able to reslove the issue.

Any comments.

[Jingthing]

My comment is you've got a problem. Sorry. Enforcement has picked up. There are the direct questions now on the IRS filing form. The FBAR thing is not IRS but they communicate; it is Treasury and the filing is now done online only at an scary looking website labeled financial crimes. They are not kidding around. The program wasn't designed to bug small fry really but we're all caught in the net now. You're not being paranoid. This is a real thing.

[Langsuan Man]

I have three banlk accounts in Thailand and have had them for more than 12 years. Two of them are joint accounts with my Thai wife. The sum total of the three accounts is about 900,000 Baht. We also have a mutual fund with Krung Sri which is presently worth about 800,000 Baht. It also pays fairly high dividends almost every year.I have never reported any of this to the IRS or FBAR.I just never thought about it because, until recently, the money in these accounts was so little. I only report my savings in the US. After reading all of these posts, I am getting a little paranoid so I am going to have a certified account to do my income tax forms and report my Thai holdings for the 2013 tax year just to be sure. They can usually find ways around delinquint reporting.I had a problem with the IRS about three years ago and they can be relentless. They are a law unto themselves. But with the help of a tax accountant I was able to reslove the issue.

Any comments.

Are you talking about getting a US based CPA or someone here in Thailand that purports to be "licensed".

Unfortunately I have read some real horror stories here at TV about these cowboy CPA's that operate in Thailand

[Cheapman]

If your fbar mismatch your income tax, get ready for jail or big fines. Both office exchange info. They have prism as well to check on you.

Join accounts are considered like if it s your money. So your thai wife will pay usa tax now... If you have a joint House, you wife must pay too.

Fbar is bonded with fatca, fatca will start to collect money in July 2014 unless there is a second extension. Seem banks have many problems to satisfy with these new US requirements(black mails)

Fines are

half of you Total money on each account.

50k to 100'000$ fine

Banks will take 30 percent and send it to irs if you don't file, then fines will come.

You could be probably be send to jail when you land in the usa when dhs see a red flag on their computer.

I gave up my US card and I don't regret it. Lot of freedom to be Swiss. Swiss passport is gold. Believe me, we have Tina Turner, Schumacher, soon we will have Tom Cruise, Madonna, goeorge cloney.(not far from Switzerland). Etc. I expect to see all the jet stars coming to Switzerland very soon.

I don't want wake up a Morning, go to an atm and see there is no money on my account or account closed on request of IRS.

Their idea is clear to me,1. come back to USA with your money or 2. give up your us citizenship and never come back to usa soil.

I chose 2nd.

[JimGant]

I gave up my US card and I don't regret it. Lot of freedom to be Swiss. Swiss passport is gold. Believe me,

Ah, the Swiss must be awfully proud to gain such a prize citizen as yourself. As a former fellow American, I am, indeed, deeply saddened by your loss. (NOT!)

By the way, what year did you drop out of school?

[mogandave]

As long as you file, it is not going to be a big deal. You should be reporting any earnings from all of your accounts anyway.

Any account with your name on it (including is you are on an account at your work) has to be listed.

[donniereadit]

I have three banlk accounts in Thailand and have had them for more than 12 years. Two of them are joint accounts with my Thai wife. The sum total of the three accounts is about 900,000 Baht. We also have a mutual fund with Krung Sri which is presently worth about 800,000 Baht. It also pays fairly high dividends almost every year.I have never reported any of this to the IRS or FBAR.I just never thought about it because, until recently, the money in these accounts was so little. I only report my savings in the US. After reading all of these posts, I am getting a little paranoid so I am going to have a certified account to do my income tax forms and report my Thai holdings for the 2013 tax year just to be sure. They can usually find ways around delinquint reporting.I had a problem with the IRS about three years ago and they can be relentless. They are a law unto themselves. But with the help of a tax accountant I was able to reslove the issue.

Any comments.

Get your taxes done by someone who knows what they are doing.

[riclag]

I think understand the $10,000 aggrevate (lol). I looked for my scenario on this thread but I couldn't find anything like it. I brought over $8,000 from The USA to by a car here.I held onto it for more then a month in the apartment .I seen a car that the GF liked but it was a little more then what I had.So I ACH $5,000 into Kasikornbank.I ended up not buying the car.So guess what $8000 was depositedI (duh).Now mind you I remember my accountant saying that there's no problem if I had a account in Thailand.I expressed I didn't want to be on the IRS radar he said that the IRS are out to get the big money people.If I only knew then what the threshold was.Well anyway,I wanted to open a BKK Bank account original but I didn't meet there requirements. Finally with the help of the GF's Uncle I was able to open the BKKB savings account back in November.I ended up transferring 45,000 bht from Kasikorn to my BKKB account.in December I ACH'd 55,000bht to the BBKB account which totaled 100,000bht .It seems to me that since I already had the 45,000 in Kasikorn I wouldn't have to report it in BKKB fileling of the FBAR and that I would only have to report the 55,000bht. Only serious comments please,Thanks

[wym]

Simple really:

If the TOTAL OF ALL your overseas funds is >10K then you are required to declare the details and balances for ALL your overseas accounts no matter how small.

[Jingthing]

You need to report ALL foreign accounts if you need to report at all. No exceptions. If it LOOKS like you have more money than you do because of in Thailand bank transfers, tough luck. This law isn't about fairness. It's about follow the rules to the letter or be technically liable for major league pain.

[wym]

They just want static balances on the relevant date.

Transfer histories will only come up if you get audited, not likely for such piddly amounts unless other red flags raised.

[Jingthing]

They just want static balances on the relevant date.

Transfer histories will only come up if you get audited, not likely for such piddly amounts unless other red flags raised.

Yes I agree, but you never know what their red flags might be. However, there is no choice really whether it looks deceptively bad or not.

[wym]

I'm definitely NOT advocating trying to hide anything from the IRS.

Just that you don't need to worry about anything "fishy-looking" in your transitory transfer data if in fact you've otherwise followed the law, the transfers themselves - as long as they're under the limits - won't trigger anything.

Note if you DO try to hide money by doing multiple transactions under the stated limits - say the limit is 10,0000, and you do three 8-9,000 transactions - this IN ITSELF is now a crime under money-laundering and tax fraud laws - google "structuring".

[mogandave]

If at any time the aggravate amount is over $10K

Account information and the maximum annual amount in each account.

I don't understand what is confusing or difficult about this.

[wym]

I do greatly admire the Swiss system of government, seems to be closer to a true democracy than most pretenders to the term.

And their very effective self-defense strategies over centuries, true defense and basically impregnable as opposed to the States' aggressive international interference actually creating a very fragile sense of national security.

However the recent vote on creating immigration limits is targeted at citizens of its fellow Schengen nations, certainly nothing to do with Americans.

If there are indeed quotas in years to come, I'd be very very surprised if the number of US citizens allowed was lower than those wishing to reside there.

If I'm wrong, when that time comes feel free to return and gloat.

PS I also agree that the US policy of taxing its citizens on all income wherever it's earned is not very rational, but someone's gotta pay for all that warmongering. . .

[sirineou]

I read most of the post replies in this thread, as I will be finding my self in this situation in the next 6-9 years and I try to know as much as I can about retiring in Thailand. I skipped the last few pages as they seem to be a repetition of everything that was said in the first 5 pages.

maybe I missed the answer to my following question , but why would anyone not want to report accounts more than $10,000

If you were living in the US you would need to report bank accounts and any income derived from interest, why would it be a problem reporting foreign bank accounts? Unless of course you have something to hide.

[mogandave]

I read most of the post replies in this thread, as I will be finding my self in this situation in the next 6-9 years and I try to know as much as I can about retiring in Thailand. I skipped the last few pages as they seem to be a repetition of everything that was said in the first 5 pages.

maybe I missed the answer to my following question , but why would anyone not want to report accounts more than $10,000

If you were living in the US you would need to report bank accounts and any income derived from interest, why would it be a problem reporting foreign bank accounts? Unless of course you have something to hide.

1. It is a problem if you are a tax evader.

2. You have a tin-foil hat

[thailiketoo]

I have three banlk accounts in Thailand and have had them for more than 12 years. Two of them are joint accounts with my Thai wife. The sum total of the three accounts is about 900,000 Baht. We also have a mutual fund with Krung Sri which is presently worth about 800,000 Baht. It also pays fairly high dividends almost every year.I have never reported any of this to the IRS or FBAR.I just never thought about it because, until recently, the money in these accounts was so little. I only report my savings in the US. After reading all of these posts, I am getting a little paranoid so I am going to have a certified account to do my income tax forms and report my Thai holdings for the 2013 tax year just to be sure. They can usually find ways around delinquint reporting.I had a problem with the IRS about three years ago and they can be relentless. They are a law unto themselves. But with the help of a tax accountant I was able to reslove the issue.

Any comments.

Get your taxes done by someone who knows what they are doing.

I thought I read that when reporting for the first time if a few years late that is OK if you did not have a professional prepare your taxes or something about you could not use the streamlined reporting method. Anyone feel free to correct me. If that is correct it would be better not to have someone who knows what they are doing prepare your report.

Edited February 10, 2014 by thailiketoo

[wym]

When it's obvious you didn't have bad intentions and the numbers are small, usually not an issue either way.

However in general it would be best IMO to have a professional help you prepare everything but there is no need for any record of that assistance to show up on your paperwork, you sign by yourself.

Unless you get audited, in which case you should get very visible assistance.

[thailiketoo]

When it's obvious you didn't have bad intentions and the numbers are small, usually not an issue either way.

However in general it would be best IMO to have a professional help you prepare everything but there is no need for any record of that assistance to show up on your paperwork, you sign by yourself.

Unless you get audited, in which case you should get very visible assistance.

Do you have any examples of this being the best idea? Do you have any examples of anyone filing FBAR reports and their experience or are you just making it up because it makes sense to you?

How do you know it is not an issue either way? Link please. Or is it just your uninformed, non professional Thai Visa opinion?

[JimGant]

Here's one of the better links, complete with reference links as well:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2012/12/03/is-filing-your-first-fbar-admitting-to-a-crime/

As said in this article, as elsewhere, if you reported income from foreign sources on your Schedule B, then filing delinquent FBARs should not be a problem. And, if somehow you low balled the income reported, you'll get a pass, since there's no 1099 trail to show the error of your ways. Just having a line item on Schedule B showing "Bangkok Bank interest," for example, would be extremely helpful -- if indeed "Bangkok Bank" is one of your FBAR entries.

And, this holds true for those who have been filing FBARs for several years, but not reporting income on their Schedule B's. Yes, one of those years, the $20,000 reported on your FBAR could have spent just one day in the bank, earning no interest, on its way to building your new house. The FBAR doesn't report duration on the accounts, just the one moment max amount. However, several years of no reported income might raise a flag at Treasury -- if they suspect you're not a housing developer.

[wym]

When it's obvious you didn't have bad intentions and the numbers are small, usually not an issue either way.

However in general it would be best IMO to have a professional help you prepare everything but there is no need for any record of that assistance to show up on your paperwork, you sign by yourself.

Unless you get audited, in which case you should get very visible assistance.

Do you have any examples of this being the best idea? Do you have any examples of anyone filing FBAR reports and their experience or are you just making it up because it makes sense to you?

How do you know it is not an issue either way? Link please. Or is it just your uninformed, non professional Thai Visa opinion?

As informed by my enrolled agent, ex IRS auditor specializing in overseas cases.

Said they did take "harmless intent" into account, vanilla sararimen as opposed to wheeler-dealers, and basically being rewarded based on funds recovered, almost like commissioned agents, focused their attention on bigger numbers.

If we're off-base do please be helpful and correct with specifics. . .

Edited February 10, 2014 by wym

[Cheapman]

I do greatly admire the Swiss system of government, seems to be closer to a true democracy than most pretenders to the term.

And their very effective self-defense strategies over centuries, true defense and basically impregnable as opposed to the States' aggressive international interference actually creating a very fragile sense of national security.

However the recent vote on creating immigration limits is targeted at citizens of its fellow Schengen nations, certainly nothing to do with Americans.

If there are indeed quotas in years to come, I'd be very very surprised if the number of US citizens allowed was lower than those wishing to reside there.

If I'm wrong, when that time comes feel free to return and gloat.

PS I also agree that the US policy of taxing its citizens on all income wherever it's earned is not very rational, but someone's gotta pay for all that warmongering. . .

You are welcome. I m Swiss btw and I voted yes and I was sick of our politicians.

Now that the music has stoped, time to book a one ticket back to your home country and never come back to Switzerland. You are not welcome unless we select you for a red card. Maybe we will run a swiss DV lottery one day... Funny.!

Not concerned by you personally,I m talking in general.

Really we were pissed off by all these European frontaliers crossing the border everyday , parking their car in small villages along the roads and taking the train a few miles away to work for half price because they can not get a stupid job even in a fast food in Europe.

We had no place to parc our cars during the day. Just a detail, but a detail who pissed Swiss people off.

And I don't talk about the traffic on Highways at 6 pm or train filled with immigrants as well line of cars crossing the Swiss border causing delay and pollution. Etc.

Kosovar citizen trafficking ladies for prostitution, drugs, and guns too.

French criminals crossing the Geneva border to commit burglaries or shooting at Old retired (happened in geneva) . I like frenchies but we don't need criminals In Switzerland. Do you?

We had to pay swiss people for unemployment because frontaliers took our jobs. If we have let continue Brussels on this path of self destruction , they would have destroyed all Switzerland like they did with France, Italy, Greece, Portugal....

Be careful now, if we find you to work illegally in our home land, we, the people of Helvetia , we will catch your by the balls and you will be ejected where you come from. (we keep your balls to feed our Swiss pitbulls )

Ahhhh! It's good to feel Swiss again:-) and get our country back. UK guys! You should do the same. You just need some balls apparently. :-)

[thailiketoo]

I'm always surprised that people can take so much pride in an accident of birth; like they did something to deserve being born a particular nationality or rank in society.