US citizens......do you FBAR?

[Jingthing]

I pay Federal and State taxes from my pesion checks enough to cover my SS and pension income. I transfer my money from my account in the USA to my Thailand bank account every month as a source of my income. If my Thai acount accumulates 300,000 ($10,000) do I then need to declare this as new income even though it's been taxed in the USA?

No you do not. but if the aggregate of your foreign accounts 10K dollars for even one day during the year, you need to report all accounts of an FBAR form filed to the Treasury Dept. and penalties to failure to file are SHOCKINGLY MASSIVE! You are also required to file interest on those accounts to the IRS.

[Spaniel]

Good info.

[sgtsabai]

The US can and does consider what your wife owns, your truck, your house, etc. as part and parcel of your overseas 'money' or holdings. You can find yourself screwed over this. Also be aware ignorance is no excuse and they can come after you for not filing even if you really didn't know about this. Some governments are refusing to cooperate, I don't know about Thailand. If enough do not sign on, this will fail as it should. This was enacted allegedly to go after the big tax cheats, the only people they have gone after so far are average ex-pats. After all, we are easy fish to fry, the big tax cheats own the government.

[Jingthing]

If Thailand doesn't cooperate it will force some Americans out of here. So hope they cooperate. The U.S. government won't quit this. That's crazy talk.

[MB1]

If Thailand doesn't cooperate it will force some Americans out of here. So hope they cooperate. The U.S. government won't quit this. That's crazy talk. 

I for one hope Thailand refuses to cooperate and other countries too..Who gave the American government the right to police the world...

For the record I'm not anti Yank but I am anti bully boy tactics and IMO that's what the American government have been trying to do for years..

I wonder how far they'll go in trying to tell China what to do...

[Jingthing]

If Thailand doesn't cooperate it will force some Americans out of here. So hope they cooperate. The U.S. government won't quit this. That's crazy talk.

I for one hope Thailand refuses to cooperate and other countries too..Who gave the American government the right to police the world...

For the record I'm not anti Yank but I am anti bully boy tactics and IMO that's what the American government have been trying to do for years..

I wonder how far they'll go in trying to tell China what to do...

You don't get it. The result of what you wish for is Americans being pushed back to the "homeland" whether they like it or not. Very few of us love this level of bullying either but they're not going to back down and many of us would like the freedom to live abroad. If foreign banks won't deal with us, many of us won't be able to.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Jingthing

[buck99]

For the 1st year of living abroad I told my US income tax accountant I didn't have a bank foreign account. I had transferred the tax paid money from USA bank and figured the IRS wouldn't know and besides they had already got their unfair share. The next year the tax accountant again asked "do you have a foreign bank account" and I again replied "no". Then he told me that the US Government puts a very heavy hand on all foreign governments to disclose the banking details of all US citizens and the penalty is quite severe. I'm sure bank reporting is one of the "hoops" countries must jump through to the receive foreign aid the USA hands out all over the world. I have since reported my bank accounts and have submitted a suplimental returns as I keep over $10,000 USD in my Thai bank account.

Foreign Aid is what rich countries collect from poor people to give to rich people in poor countries.

[Frank James]

My US accountant told me about FBAR three years ago, and I have been dutifully mailing the report to the US Treasury Dept at their Detroit office every year. Even though I only have one foreign account, at a local bank here, used of course for daily living (no credit cards here), I don't ever want to test their seriousness about the penalty. Glad to see that it can now be done electronically. I always worried a little about that letter getting lost somewhere.

You guys who get monthly transfers from your US bank (thereby keeping less than $10,000 on account here, hence no report), what about those transfer fees? Every time I get a transfer it's a $40 charge, and soon it will be over $60, I am told.

It's always something!

[Jingthing]

Now it MUST be done online. Mailing a form is no longer an option. So far, the site is working at about healthcare.gov levels ... but the previous year you still had the mailing option. For current tax year (due next year) ... nope.

[sgtsabai]

There are movements among ex-pats, some are actual citizens now of the country they reside in, to stop this. US ex-pats in Canada in particular. Horror stories abound, check out the internet, just remember NSA and other 'initials' are checking you out. The US government has no right to know what I have or do not have in Thailand or anywhere else in the world. The US is a bully, a spy and doesn't mind terrorizing it's own citizens. If enough governments refuse to go along, the program becomes too expensive to carry out, at this point it already is as it isn't being used to bust the big wig tax cheats and all countries aren't cooperating.

How would American ex-pats be forced out of Thailand if Thailand refuses to cooperate with this snooping into our lives?

[DeanWeen]

The US can and does consider what your wife owns, your truck, your house, etc. as part and parcel of your overseas 'money' or holdings. You can find yourself screwed over this. Also be aware ignorance is no excuse and they can come after you for not filing even if you really didn't know about this. Some governments are refusing to cooperate, I don't know about Thailand. If enough do not sign on, this will fail as it should. This was enacted allegedly to go after the big tax cheats, the only people they have gone after so far are average ex-pats. After all, we are easy fish to fry, the big tax cheats own the government.

But they can only come after it if the assets in question also have your name on it. I guess it's like Andy's line in "Shawshank" -- "Do you trust your wife?"

[JLCrab]

There are movements among ex-pats, some are actual citizens now of the country they reside in, to stop this. US ex-pats in Canada in particular. Horror stories abound, check out the internet, just remember NSA and other 'initials' are checking you out. The US government has no right to know what I have or do not have in Thailand or anywhere else in the world. The US is a bully, a spy and doesn't mind terrorizing it's own citizens. If enough governments refuse to go along, the program becomes too expensive to carry out, at this point it already is as it isn't being used to bust the big wig tax cheats and all countries aren't cooperating. How would American ex-pats be forced out of Thailand if Thailand refuses to cooperate with this snooping into our lives?

The US government has no right to know what I have or do not have in Thailand or anywhere else in the world. If you are a US citizen, my guess would be that they would differ.

[DeanWeen]

If Thailand doesn't cooperate it will force some Americans out of here. So hope they cooperate. The U.S. government won't quit this. That's crazy talk.

The other "option" is to give up American citizenship. More and more Americans are doing it. Of course, you need another passport.

The US has been taxing its expats for decades. It will never stop, and the government will only keep looking for more ways to intrude on our finances.

[DeanWeen]

If Thailand doesn't cooperate it will force some Americans out of here. So hope they cooperate. The U.S. government won't quit this. That's crazy talk.

I for one hope Thailand refuses to cooperate and other countries too..Who gave the American government the right to police the world...

For the record I'm not anti Yank but I am anti bully boy tactics and IMO that's what the American government have been trying to do for years..

I wonder how far they'll go in trying to tell China what to do...

Getting economically blackballed by the US isn't in most countries' self interests. If Switzerland caved, so will most everyone else.

[Jingthing]

If Thailand doesn't cooperate it will force some Americans out of here. So hope they cooperate. The U.S. government won't quit this. That's crazy talk.

The other "option" is to give up American citizenship. More and more Americans are doing it. Of course, you need another passport.

The US has been taxing its expats for decades. It will never stop, and the government will only keep looking for more ways to intrude on our finances.

Not practical for most of us. Obtaining Thai citizenship is very difficult and most Americans wouldn't want it anyway. We aren't talking about taxing here though. We're talking about the U.S. forcing global financial institutions to report on Americans, and treasury filing requirements, etc.

[Jingthing]

There are movements among ex-pats, some are actual citizens now of the country they reside in, to stop this. US ex-pats in Canada in particular. Horror stories abound, check out the internet, just remember NSA and other 'initials' are checking you out. The US government has no right to know what I have or do not have in Thailand or anywhere else in the world. The US is a bully, a spy and doesn't mind terrorizing it's own citizens. If enough governments refuse to go along, the program becomes too expensive to carry out, at this point it already is as it isn't being used to bust the big wig tax cheats and all countries aren't cooperating. How would American ex-pats be forced out of Thailand if Thailand refuses to cooperate with this snooping into our lives?

You seriously don't get it, do you? We're forced out if Thai financial institutions dump all American accounts. DUH!

[sgtsabai]

From what I have read, the US government doesn't care if it is in your name or not. They consider your wife's property etc. yours for their purpose, and have gone after ex-pats on that basis.

Yes the Corporate Police State of Amerika would differ. I don't care whether they differ or not, they don't have the right. They have the power yep, can't deny that but I have resisted the US power ever since the little lesson I learned courtesy Uncle Sam's Misguided Children in Vietnam. I spoke truth to the power then, paid the price and I will continue. They may have the power, they don't have the right.

[Jingthing]

I'd rather be a good little sheep and get to sleep at night and know I can repatriate if and when I want too ...

[CMBob]

A few comments/corrections:

1. Some questioned whether the IRS and Treasury share information with each other. Given the IRS is a formal bureau (practically speaking, the collection arm) of the Department of Treasury, the answer is "yes."

2. Somebody said all foreign banks must report bank/stock information to the US. Well, some day that may be true because of a US law passed a couple of years ago that requires it; however, no foreign bank has to obey US law and this is being implemented through inter-governmental agreements between the US and the foreign governments. So far, only 5 or 6 countries have done that and Thailand is not one of them; however, just last week, the Thai government authorized the beginning of negotiations with the US to try to reach such an agreement. It's likely they'll reach some agreement and then the Thai legislature will have to pass some new law authorizing Thai banks to give up the information. But it's likely (I'm guessing here) that this will be accomplished in 2014.

3. If you have in all foreign accounts (a term which includes bank accounts, stock brokerage accounts, etc.) at any one moment of the year a sum/value equal to $10,000 or more, you're required to file the FBAR form with Treasury by June 30th of the following year. Just do it if you need to - it's easy (I've done it for a few years and it takes me less than 10 minutes to put down the information about my two Thai bank accounts) and the penalties are rather severe for failure to do so. Not doing it because you think you won't be caught is probably pretty stupid thinking. Additionally, as someone noted, there is new language on Schedule B of the 1040 form which asks for information about foreign accounts. The purpose of the law is really to catch drug kingpins and rich people who are hiding tons of money outside the US; unfortunately, the law applies to everybody and they set the threshold rather low (my opinion anyway).

4. If you have in all foreign accounts at any one moment of the year a sum/value equal to $50,000 or more (please note - there's a possibility this amount will be raised or at least it's being discussed), then you're required to also file Form 8938 with your income tax return with the IRS the following year. Again, it's easy to do - takes only a few minutes - and the penalties are substantial for not doing so.

5. Regardless of either of these two requirements, you're required to accurately fill out your annual tax return - including the reporting of interest, dividends, etc., earned anywhere.

For those who don't meet the $10,000 value threshold, no sense bitching about it as you're not required to do or file anything (other than properly fill out your annual income tax return - presuming you're required to file one).

Edited December 6, 2013 by CMBob

[sgtsabai]

And why would Thai banks refuse us accounts? I have one Thai account, and I don't need it.

[utkb]

You should always report all accounts to the FBAR. The US will not allow foreign banks to do business in the US if they don't comply and that would mean a big loss to foreign banks. A friend already reported that TMB new policy will not allow US citizens to open accounts. And I've seen that Citibank Thailand will not allow US persons (not just citizen's or green card holders, but anyone who has potential US tax liability, which could potentially be a Thai college student that studied in the US) to invest in their mutual funds after next July.

Don't mess with the IRS on this issue, it is not worth the risk, and it is unlikely that anyone on this forum would really be worth the effort for the IRS to go after.

[lopburi3]

Actually we are not talking about tax but about a reporting requirement for foreign bank accounts designed to ferret out illegal monies from organized crime. This is how they get them and it is nothing new or designed to obtain coffee money from expats. But it is now being more seriously applied and with current and proposed international reporting agreements will become more mainstream but should not be a problem for most people who are not trying to hide something. It should only take a few minutes to do the report (at least the mail version was that fast).

[sgtsabai]

I'm not a sheeple, Buddha willing and the waters don't rise I will never ever step foot in the Corporate Police State of Amerika again. "The purpose of the law is really to catch drug kingpins and rich people who are hiding tons of money outside the US; unfortunately, the law applies to everybody and they set the threshold rather low (my opinion anyway)". True, unfortunately they only go after the little fish. I don't and won't have over the 10,000 usd in a bank over here. I will bitch because it isn't right, people need to bitch when their government is wrong and sheeple need to find their hind feet.

[Jingthing]

Then the law doesn't apply to you. It's brave of you to tell those of us who do to risk our entire well being because of your fanatical extremist political views.

[CMBob]

You seriously don't get it, do you? We're forced out if Thai financial institutions dump all American accounts. DUH!

Why? If (which isn't going to happen anyway) Thai banks refuse to allow accounts for us yanks, I'm sure as hell not leaving just because of that. I'll just pull cash as I need it with my US ATM cards, bring more cash in if/when I'm back in the states, and, in my case, likely manage the cash in the account of my Thai partner. No need to run home just because you can't have a bank account here (i.e., you could work around it if you want to do so).

[CMBob]

Then just use the income requirement via the Embassy/Consulate method. As you well know, they don't verity the amounts anyway.

Your hypothetical in any event hasn't come true for any American I know so perhaps you ought to start worrying only after your Thai bank tells you that you can't maintain an account with them.

Edited December 6, 2013 by CMBob

[Jingthing]

Then just use the income requirement via the Embassy/Consulate method. As you well know, they don't verity the amounts anyway.

If you have the income. This is getting tedious. It is very undesirable as a general rule to not be allowed to open financial accounts in any country you are living in, whether vital or not. For some of us, it IS vital.

[CMBob]

What's "tedious" is people posting "the-sky-is-falling" scenarios when the sky hasn't fallen yet. Chill out, it ain't gonna happen.

[sgtsabai]

If the law applies to my Thai wife's 'property' and bank accounts, and apparently it has for other ex-pats, then my 'friend' it can be used against me. This law is wrong as it is being applied and the US is a bully. You may consider my views however you wish, but at least I stood up for truth and right before, paid the price (the government can and will make life miserable for you and your family even if you win in the Supreme Court) and I will continue to stand. I may be scared of my government, but I'm no sheeple. Oh, and just in case you think I'm some hippie trash, I'm a USMC Vietnam Vet, former Federal Wildland Firefighter, and NM commissioned/certified law enforcement officer.

[Jingthing]

Fight your fight. I just don't want any trouble. Baaa Baaa! Semper Fries with that?

Edited December 6, 2013 by Jingthing