US citizens......do you FBAR?

[aveabeeror2]

i make sure i never have more than $9,900 in all my overseas accounts an have kept it that way for 3 years now

Kinda nonsensical, as they've made filing the FBAR on-line quite simple. And, plugging in the accounts and amounts isn't terribly hard.

Except from the POV that some still hold out the quaint old-fashioned notion of privacy in your financial affairs, that it isn't your government's business as long as you're not doing anything illegal.

But the current zeitgeist is that the government claims the right to know everything about all aspects of "your business", no such thing as any privacy anymore, so that they can make the decision themselves as to whether you're actually doing anything illegal or not.

And with legal systems this complex, of course EVERYONE is doing SOMETHING illegal at any given moment, so the bureaucrats have power over anyone they like easy to abuse that power down the road, but more to the point everyone's that much more afraid to stick their neck out and protest against what they see as bad governance, so effective democracy - which requires free speech - can be more and more stifled.

Here we go again, swinging low again, side by side. The master has spoken.

[maphraw]

I was going to do my taxes by myself using Turbo Tax but I might just pay the tax accountant his hefty fee ($475) and have him do my returns so it looks good and proper.

By saving a $475 accountant fee, I'd sure give Turbotax a try. It's pretty simple, especially if your tax situation is simple, as yours appears to be. And, apparently you can now efile with a foreign address, which wasn't always the case.

It certainly will look "good and proper" with Turbotax. Your accountant probably uses the professional version, and his efile will look the same as yours.

I don't want to beat this topic to death but I have used Turbo Tax before and made some major mistakes regarding the recording of the cost basis of some ETF's and stocks that I had sold. I didn't record them correctly on Turbo Tax and it wasn't clear how I was supposed to do it. (This is about 3 years ago and I no longer buy individual stocks, only a few mutual funds). I got a scathing letter from the IRS telling me I owed them the money for all of the stock sales.(a considerable amount) I was really frightened and I wrote a long letter of apology and assured them I would send them an amended return. I had the return amended by a tax accountant in Bangkok and the matter was settled and I didn't owe them anything. Actually, the IRS was very cordial about it all and helpful.

Recently (for tax year 2013)Turbo tax told me that they can extract all of my tax information from the brokerage I have my US assets with and all of the forms and little boxes Form 1040 and Sch B etc. will be filled in correctly. But when I do taxes, even with Turbo Tax, I fall into a kind of 'fear of math' syndrome. But I would definitely like to avoid the $475 accountant fee, which pretty high even by American standards. Death and taxes-the only two certainties. Once again JimGant, thanks for you advice and comments.

[mogandave]

$475 is not high.

[mania]

In case anyone needs it

32.74 is the rate to use for THB/USD for FBAR 2013

http://sherayzenlaw.com/official-treasury-currency-conversion-rates-of-december-31-2013-fbar-conversion-rates/

[wym]

$475 is not high.

Yes mine used to charge $5,000 per year, but did include a small company, and state taxes as well.

[Langsuan Man]

I don't want to beat this topic to death but I have used Turbo Tax before and made some major mistakes regarding the recording of the cost basis of some ETF's and stocks that I had sold. I didn't record them correctly on Turbo Tax and it wasn't clear how I was supposed to do it. (This is about 3 years ago and I no longer buy individual stocks, only a few mutual funds). I got a scathing letter from the IRS telling me I owed them the money for all of the stock sales.(a considerable amount) I was really frightened and I wrote a long letter of apology and assured them I would send them an amended return. I had the return amended by a tax accountant in Bangkok and the matter was settled and I didn't owe them anything. Actually, the IRS was very cordial about it all and helpful.

Recently (for tax year 2013)Turbo tax told me that they can extract all of my tax information from the brokerage I have my US assets with and all of the forms and little boxes Form 1040 and Sch B etc. will be filled in correctly. But when I do taxes, even with Turbo Tax, I fall into a kind of 'fear of math' syndrome. But I would definitely like to avoid the $475 accountant fee, which pretty high even by American standards. Death and taxes-the only two certainties. Once again JimGant, thanks for you advice and comments.

In the name of fair and balanced the only time I have ever had trouble with my taxes was the one time I used a CPA. Add to that, the number of members here that have posted that their US based "tax professionals" don't have a clue as to the FBAR requirements, I have to say that Turbo Tax or any similar service is a viable alternative to a high priced professional

You have to review your return with Turbo Tax to insure that everything is listed before you hit the submit button. It will do the math correctly but can't do what it doesn't have information about. (remember the old mantra about computers: garbage in, garbage out.)

[maphraw]

I don't want to beat this topic to death but I have used Turbo Tax before and made some major mistakes regarding the recording of the cost basis of some ETF's and stocks that I had sold. I didn't record them correctly on Turbo Tax and it wasn't clear how I was supposed to do it. (This is about 3 years ago and I no longer buy individual stocks, only a few mutual funds). I got a scathing letter from the IRS telling me I owed them the money for all of the stock sales.(a considerable amount) I was really frightened and I wrote a long letter of apology and assured them I would send them an amended return. I had the return amended by a tax accountant in Bangkok and the matter was settled and I didn't owe them anything. Actually, the IRS was very cordial about it all and helpful.

Recently (for tax year 2013)Turbo tax told me that they can extract all of my tax information from the brokerage I have my US assets with and all of the forms and little boxes Form 1040 and Sch B etc. will be filled in correctly. But when I do taxes, even with Turbo Tax, I fall into a kind of 'fear of math' syndrome. But I would definitely like to avoid the $475 accountant fee, which pretty high even by American standards. Death and taxes-the only two certainties. Once again JimGant, thanks for you advice and comments.

In the name of fair and balanced the only time I have ever had trouble with my taxes was the one time I used a CPA. Add to that, the number of members here that have posted that their US based "tax professionals" don't have a clue as to the FBAR requirements, I have to say that Turbo Tax or any similar service is a viable alternative to a high priced professional

You have to review your return with Turbo Tax to insure that everything is listed before you hit the submit button. It will do the math correctly but can't do what it doesn't have information about. (remember the old mantra about computers: garbage in, garbage out.)

A recent court decision by a US District Court has found that the Government failed to prove that it was a “willful” act of the defendant not to file an FBAR return. (A “willful” violation carries much heavier penalties.) While subsequent legislation specifically permits a lower level of proof from 2004 on, the first-of-its-kind decision was nevertheless a warning that the IRS needs to watch its step.

According to the IRS FBAR manual, “The mere fact that a person checked the wrong box, or no box, on a Schedule B is not sufficient, by itself, to establish that the FBAR violation was attributable to willful blindness.” Furthermore, as a recent article on this subject concludes: “A large number of taxpayers with foreign tax compliance problems are not purposeful tax evaders, but are merely unaware of these complex rules ... Therefore, sweeping the innocent (albeit, perhaps ignorant) subset into the same box that holds the real tax evaders is not sound tax policy…. [T]he taxpaying community needs to have faith that innocent mistakes will be dealt with fairly and reasonably.”

(Thanks to the firm of Daniels-Morson for bringing much of the information in this article to ACA’s attention.)

Last Updated July 22, 2012

[JimGant]

According to the IRS FBAR manual, “The mere fact that a person checked the wrong box, or no box, on a Schedule B is not sufficient, by itself, to establish that the FBAR violation was attributable to willful blindness.”

As already reported on this thread -- or on one of the other zillion FBAR threads -- if you reported your foreign interest or dividends on your Schedule B, you will NOT be subject to any FBAR penalties for not filing the FBAR form(s). It's only if you did not report your foreign earnings, either on the filed Schedule B -- or by not filing Sched B completely -- that you will possibly be given a second look.

And, again, the FBAR is a mechanism to exact additional penalty from the big time tax evaders. They're not interested in you, who earned $85 dollars on your Bangkok Bank savings account. In fact, they're not interested in you if you only reported $15 of that $85 on your Sched B -- 'cause they won't have the foggiest of the real number (no 1099 trail).

[JimGant]

Explain me?

Explaining you would seemingly be difficult to do, as you don't appear to be running on all cylinders.

[Idontpaytaxsowhat]

Explain me?

Explaining you would seemingly be difficult to do, as you don't appear to be running on all cylinders.

difficult? Mouhahah!

You don't need to explain me anything, just show me the law where you have to pay income tax? SHOW ME THE LAW!

Are people on you tube all not running on all cylinders too?

Edited February 25, 2014 by Idontpaytaxsowhat

[thailiketoo]

Explain me?

Explaining you would seemingly be difficult to do, as you don't appear to be running on all cylinders.

difficult? Mouhahah!

You don't need to explain me anything, just show me the law where you have to pay income tax? SHOW ME THE LAW!

Are people on you tube all not running on all cylinders too?

200,000,000 Americans pay taxes and you have found a loophole. Gosh, everyone should get real excited and jump up and down. I mean you have single handed bankrupt and broken the American government. You win. America looses. Congrats.

[mania]

You don't need to explain me anything, just show me the law where you have to pay income tax? SHOW ME THE LAW!

Tell you the truth I have heard the claim from many but never seen anyone claiming there is no law

get away with it....so I assume there is one.

Maybe the 16th amendment?

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived,

without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

[thailiketoo]

You assume if a law doesn't exist, we must have a law stating that a law doesn't exist.... Guess what? I m the law unless there is a law stating I m not the law. Now give me all your money. :-D

There is no loophole as there is no law.... :-D I m just 100% lawfully compliant.

Congress never passed a law to collect money from income. Again, show me the LAW....SHOW ME THIS #@#% LAW!

The IRS is not only unconstitutional, it is illegal. The 16th amendment does not give the government the right to tax our labor, it never has. Fear for the past 100 years has been the main drive for taxation on our labor. Not facts, and not the law. Mob rule took over and we have been living under fascism for the better part of the last century. There is no law on the books that mandates that you must pay income tax.

Of course you are correct. 200,000,000 Americans are wrong. Good job,

[55Jay]

You assume if a law doesn't exist, we must have a law stating that a law doesn't exist.... Guess what? I m the law unless there is a law stating I m not the law. Now give me all your money. :-D

There is no loophole as there is no law.... :-D I m just 100% lawfully compliant.

Congress never passed a law to collect money from income. Again, show me the LAW....SHOW ME THIS #@#% LAW!

The IRS is not only unconstitutional, it is illegal. The 16th amendment does not give the government the right to tax our labor, it never has. Fear for the past 100 years has been the main drive for taxation on our labor. Not facts, and not the law. Mob rule took over and we have been living under fascism for the better part of the last century. There is no law on the books that mandates that you must pay income tax.

OK, you are correct, so everyone should stop. While that might de-fund a lot of things we aren't happy about at present, a few other things that come to mind might be:

Our police would be taking bribes on the side of the road as there would be no money to pay them or pay them enough to not need bribes. Nobody would abide by traffic laws, so driving on the roads would be (more) insane. Our roads would be crap and full of pot holes and no money to fix, or to switch on the lights at night. The government would be even more dysfunctional and corrupt than it already is. There would be no social security, no medicare, and no other essential services. We would need water tanks and dedicated pumps at our houses, cooking gas cylinders for our stoves and ideally, generators to compensate for increasingly unstable electricity in our 3rd world environment.

If this sounds too unsavory, you could always move to Thailand and escape a lot of it.

[JLCrab]

16th Amendment challenge: http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/04/05/wesley-snipes-freed-tax-lessons-remain/

[Idontpaytaxsowhat]

You assume if a law doesn't exist, we must have a law stating that a law doesn't exist.... Guess what? I m the law unless there is a law stating I m not the law. Now give me all your money. :-D

There is no loophole as there is no law.... :-D I m just 100% lawfully compliant.

Congress never passed a law to collect money from income. Again, show me the LAW....SHOW ME THIS #@#% LAW!

The IRS is not only unconstitutional, it is illegal. The 16th amendment does not give the government the right to tax our labor, it never has. Fear for the past 100 years has been the main drive for taxation on our labor. Not facts, and not the law. Mob rule took over and we have been living under fascism for the better part of the last century. There is no law on the books that mandates that you must pay income tax.

OK, you are correct, so everyone should stop. While that might de-fund a lot of things we aren't happy about at present, a few other things that come to mind might be:

Our police would be taking bribes on the side of the road as there would be no money to pay them or pay them enough to not need bribes. Nobody would abide by traffic laws, so driving on the roads would be (more) insane. Our roads would be crap and full of pot holes and no money to fix, or to switch on the lights at night. The government would be even more dysfunctional and corrupt than it already is. There would be no social security, no medicare, and no other essential services. We would need water tanks and dedicated pumps at our houses, cooking gas cylinders for our stoves and ideally, generators to compensate for increasingly unstable electricity in our 3rd world environment.

If this sounds too unsavory, you could always move to Thailand and escape a lot of it.

Yeah right....! Sounds like a Obama patriotism speech! You could be a congressman. :-)

Tax pay nothing these days. It pay only the interest. It means when IRS take your money, what do you think they do with it ? They send it offshore to pay interest. None of these money is invested in SSN, road and the rest you mention in your previous post, consider they money is destroyed right after they debit your bank account.

. This is why Obama got many problems to get money to fix bridge and roads. He got problem for everything with out exceptions.

Only a loser ratify laws like fbar and fatca. Means more tax, and it will not stop here as they don't want to understand.

USA, hundred and one year ago had no income tax and people were ok. Yes they were OK! And no debt!

by the way a real patriotic USA citizen must know that filing tax is voluntary. Of course IRS changed the meaning of"voluntary", tax was to help, tax is not a requirement .never has been. This is why there is no F... Law unless you show me it.

So SHOW ME THE LAW! SHOW ME THE LAW.... :-D

Edited March 1, 2014 by Idontpaytaxsowhat

[wym]

oh shut up

pot

kettle

black

[thailiketoo]

You assume if a law doesn't exist, we must have a law stating that a law doesn't exist.... Guess what? I m the law unless there is a law stating I m not the law. Now give me all your money. :-D

There is no loophole as there is no law.... :-D I m just 100% lawfully compliant.

Congress never passed a law to collect money from income. Again, show me the LAW....SHOW ME THIS #@#% LAW!

The IRS is not only unconstitutional, it is illegal. The 16th amendment does not give the government the right to tax our labor, it never has. Fear for the past 100 years has been the main drive for taxation on our labor. Not facts, and not the law. Mob rule took over and we have been living under fascism for the better part of the last century. There is no law on the books that mandates that you must pay income tax.

OK, you are correct, so everyone should stop. While that might de-fund a lot of things we aren't happy about at present, a few other things that come to mind might be:

Our police would be taking bribes on the side of the road as there would be no money to pay them or pay them enough to not need bribes. Nobody would abide by traffic laws, so driving on the roads would be (more) insane. Our roads would be crap and full of pot holes and no money to fix, or to switch on the lights at night. The government would be even more dysfunctional and corrupt than it already is. There would be no social security, no medicare, and no other essential services. We would need water tanks and dedicated pumps at our houses, cooking gas cylinders for our stoves and ideally, generators to compensate for increasingly unstable electricity in our 3rd world environment.

If this sounds too unsavory, you could always move to Thailand and escape a lot of it.

Yeah right....! Sounds like a Obama patriotism speech! You could be a congressman. :-)

Tax pay nothing these days. It pay only the interest. It means when IRS take your money, what do you think they do with it ? They send it offshore to pay interest. None of these money is invested in SSN, road and the rest you mention in your previous post, consider they money is destroyed right after they debit your bank account.

. This is why Obama got many problems to get money to fix bridge and roads. He got problem for everything with out exceptions.

Only a loser ratify laws like fbar and fatca. Means more tax, and it will not stop here as they don't want to understand.

USA, hundred and one year ago had no income tax and people were ok. Yes they were OK! And no debt!

by the way a real patriotic USA citizen must know that filing tax is voluntary. Of course IRS changed the meaning of"voluntary", tax was to help, tax is not a requirement .never has been. This is why there is no F... Law unless you show me it.

So SHOW ME THE LAW! SHOW ME THE LAW.... :-D

Yo dude you are so right. There are 8.4 million millionaires in America with tax lawyers and tax accountants that are all brain trusts. They are all wrong and you are correct.

You should tell these 8 million millionaires they are wrong and don't really have to pay taxes.

And you did it so young. How old are you 15? Great job.

[55Jay]

You assume if a law doesn't exist, we must have a law stating that a law doesn't exist.... Guess what? I m the law unless there is a law stating I m not the law. Now give me all your money. :-D

There is no loophole as there is no law.... :-D I m just 100% lawfully compliant.

Congress never passed a law to collect money from income. Again, show me the LAW....SHOW ME THIS #@#% LAW!

The IRS is not only unconstitutional, it is illegal. The 16th amendment does not give the government the right to tax our labor, it never has. Fear for the past 100 years has been the main drive for taxation on our labor. Not facts, and not the law. Mob rule took over and we have been living under fascism for the better part of the last century. There is no law on the books that mandates that you must pay income tax.

OK, you are correct, so everyone should stop. While that might de-fund a lot of things we aren't happy about at present, a few other things that come to mind might be:

Our police would be taking bribes on the side of the road as there would be no money to pay them or pay them enough to not need bribes. Nobody would abide by traffic laws, so driving on the roads would be (more) insane. Our roads would be crap and full of pot holes and no money to fix, or to switch on the lights at night. The government would be even more dysfunctional and corrupt than it already is. There would be no social security, no medicare, and no other essential services. We would need water tanks and dedicated pumps at our houses, cooking gas cylinders for our stoves and ideally, generators to compensate for increasingly unstable electricity in our 3rd world environment.

If this sounds too unsavory, you could always move to Thailand and escape a lot of it.

Yeah right....! Sounds like a Obama patriotism speech! You could be a congressman. :-)

Tax pay nothing these days. It pay only the interest. It means when IRS take your money, what do you think they do with it ? They send it offshore to pay interest. None of these money is invested in SSN, road and the rest you mention in your previous post, consider they money is destroyed right after they debit your bank account.

. This is why Obama got many problems to get money to fix bridge and roads. He got problem for everything with out exceptions.

Only a loser ratify laws like fbar and fatca. Means more tax, and it will not stop here as they don't want to understand.

USA, hundred and one year ago had no income tax and people were ok. Yes they were OK! And no debt!

by the way a real patriotic USA citizen must know that filing tax is voluntary. Of course IRS changed the meaning of"voluntary", tax was to help, tax is not a requirement .never has been. This is why there is no F... Law unless you show me it.

So SHOW ME THE LAW! SHOW ME THE LAW.... :-D

Sounds like you've been eating way too much vitamin YT (Youtube).

[meand]

I don't know about the above posted Snipes case, but the stuff written by Thoreau in Civil Disobedience is interesting and, well, he has me convinced to be honest. The gist is why should I be compelled to fund operations I deem to be unlawful (slavery and I believe the Mexican-American war in Thoreau's case)? Imagine if you could track your actual tax dollar..... maybe you paid for a bullet that went through the skull of an innocent child for example. You actually paid to kill the child. Of course, the practical reality is the government is too powerful to disagree with, combined with the fact that I suppose we did in fact elect them. There are no easy answers, but for the government's the "answers" are easy and very clear cut of course, pay or be punished.

[Jingthing]

Heads up.

For certain Thai banks if you don't update your savings account passbook often enough, they don't print the entire account history and do massive AGGREGATE posts of deposits and debits. This could be a real problem if you need to see the ACTUAL highest balance during the year, as you do for FBAR reporting. You might so, go online, but that would imply they will show far back transaction history when you do ... (don't count on it!).

So far I am having this issue with

KASIKORNBANK

Any other banks doing that with aggregate passbook posting?

Example

Feb 3, 2013 -- 10,000 baht

Update passbook Dec 2, 2013

AGGREGATED Deposits -- 400, 000 baht

AGGREGATED Debits -- 300,000 baht

Balance 110,000 baht

As you can see, that record gives NO IDEA of your highest balance during the year!

Yes this issue can be prevented by updating more often or checking monthly statements online often, but that's why this is a HEADS UP.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Jingthing

[thailiketoo]

Heads up.

For certain Thai banks if you don't update your savings account passbook often enough, they don't print the entire account history and do massive AGGREGATE posts of deposits and debits. This could be a real problem if you need to see the ACTUAL highest balance during the year, as you do for FBAR reporting. You might so, go online, but that would imply they will show far back transaction history when you do ... (don't count on it!).

So far I am having this issue with

KASIKORNBANK

Any other banks doing that with aggregate passbook posting?

Do you have any evidence of Thai banks reporting all American depositors to the US Government?

[mania]

Any other banks doing that with aggregate passbook posting?

I updated for the first time in probably a year since I do all my stuff online

so I could do my FBAR but...

Ayudhya, Bangkok Bank, no problems with what you describe. Every entry there

Side Note : FBAR was easier this year & no browser, adobe related problems

[Jingthing]

Heads up.

For certain Thai banks if you don't update your savings account passbook often enough, they don't print the entire account history and do massive AGGREGATE posts of deposits and debits. This could be a real problem if you need to see the ACTUAL highest balance during the year, as you do for FBAR reporting. You might so, go online, but that would imply they will show far back transaction history when you do ... (don't count on it!).

So far I am having this issue with

KASIKORNBANK

Any other banks doing that with aggregate passbook posting?

Do you have any evidence of Thai banks reporting all American depositors to the US Government?

I posted a technical point.

I must file FBAR by law and I do file FBAR as required by law.

Your question is irrelevant to my post.

[Jingthing]

Any other banks doing that with aggregate passbook posting?

I updated for the first time in probably a year since I do all my stuff online

so I could do my FBAR but...

Ayudhya, Bangkok Bank, no problems with what you describe. Every entry there

Side Note : FBAR was easier this year & no browser, adobe related problems

Yes, I know it is not ALL Thai banks.

So I can say it IS a problem with Kasikorn (and online statements only go back three months for savings accounts).

For the benefit of readers, have you had a similar problem with any OTHER Thai banks?

[thailiketoo]

Heads up.

For certain Thai banks if you don't update your savings account passbook often enough, they don't print the entire account history and do massive AGGREGATE posts of deposits and debits. This could be a real problem if you need to see the ACTUAL highest balance during the year, as you do for FBAR reporting. You might so, go online, but that would imply they will show far back transaction history when you do ... (don't count on it!).

So far I am having this issue with

KASIKORNBANK

Any other banks doing that with aggregate passbook posting?

Do you have any evidence of Thai banks reporting all American depositors to the US Government?

I posted a technical point.

I must file FBAR by law and I do file FBAR as required by law.

Your question is irrelevant to my post.

If the bank was not reporting transactions of depositors the US government would have no way of knowing amounts in Thai bank. Hence it would make no difference if the banks updated the bank book once a year or once a month. It has everything to do with your post. If you don't want to answer my question just say so. Or if you don't know the answer just say so.

[mania]

Yes, I know it is not ALL Thai banks.

So I can say it IS a problem with Kasikorn (and online statements only go back three months for savings accounts).

For the benefit of readers, have you had a similar problem with any OTHER Thai banks?

I understood your post & was letting you know since you asked

"Any other banks doing that with aggregate passbook posting?"

That Ayudhya & Bangkok were not doing that in my recent experience

No similar problems with these two

[Jingthing]

That's ridiculous. For those complying with the law, there is every reason to file ACCURATELY. I am talking about a technical problem with doing that. That is all. This isn't tea party central here. For people who want to give up their American citizenship, I respect that, but most of us don't.

[mogandave]

if you could track your actual tax dollar..... maybe you paid for a bullet that went through the skull of an innocent child for example. You actually paid to kill the child.

Right, and if you pay VAT when you purchase a new pair of trousers, if the government used the VAT collected from you to buy a new light bulb, if worker gets electrocuted changing the bulb, you paid to kill the electrician.

Or perhaps the government uses your income taxes to provide welfare to a heroin addict, if the junkie buys dope with the welfare money and ODs, you paid to kill the junkie.

[Jingthing]

Yes, I know it is not ALL Thai banks.

So I can say it IS a problem with Kasikorn (and online statements only go back three months for savings accounts).

For the benefit of readers, have you had a similar problem with any OTHER Thai banks?

I understood your post & was letting you know since you asked

"Any other banks doing that with aggregate passbook posting?"

That Ayudhya & Bangkok were not doing that in my recent experience

No similar problems with these two

Also SCB is not a problem in my experience. Thanks.