When/how Exactly Is Someone Gay Or Hetero ?

[JemJem]

First, let me say that I, myself, am not a big fan of 'labels' but often find myself using them for the sake of communication and convenience.

Anyway...I want to bring up a topic which is quite mind-boggling, in my opinion.

It seems that most people writing here seem comfortable adopting one sexual label or another for themselves.

But how/when can one call oneself gay or hetero ? Without getting 'too deep', I will mention the following :

*There is the issue of 'change over a person's lifetime'...So many people have first identified themselves as hetero or bi but later on considered themselves gay. It is also a fact that some of those people might later identify themselves as 'hetero' or bi' again.

*There is the issue of sex versus love/romance. I have many male friends who have had same-sex experiences at least once and enjoyed those but never have really fallen in love with another man...in fact all their 'loves' have been female.

I think that this point, sex versus love/romance, is a very interesting one.

*Then there is the issue of 'attraction/sexual arousal'. A guy might be sexually aroused when seeing a sexy picture of a woman but would actually never consider having sex with a woman...he would only sleep with men.

*There is the issue of 'being confused'. Many people wonder (even people in their middle ages) how to sexually label themselves.

I will now come to my own opinion on this :

I feel that all of us have SOME DEGREE OF bisexuality in ourselves. For some people, this 'degree' is minimal, I am sure.

I have written this once in another thread and I would love to repeat this expression again (forgot who had originally said it) :

''There are no heterosexual people or homosexual people but only heterosexual acts and homosexual acts.'' I know the relationship is very subtle but I feel this saying is related to ''All of us have some degree of bisexuality''.

I know that a lot of people won't admit or maybe feel that they might have some degree of bisexuality in themselves.

I know this might receive some strong opposing arguments.....but anyway, I didn't mean to offend any hetero or gay people.....all that was just my opinion.

Regards,

Jem

[wcr]

In my experience it depends on how many beers the 'hetro guy' has downed

[mrmnp]

Jem, Thailand is a great place for this subject, as many Thai men are not carrying the burden of Christian-Judean homophobia so they can engage in same-sex acts wihout guilt or concerns regarding sexual gender identification. To them, sex is sex and if they are horny and if a woman isn't around, an agreeable man will do, granted, young, slender and less blatantly masculine the better.

I won't even go into what happens in monastaries.

If sex is allowed to flourish without condemnation by religious or governmental dictates, we would all be better off.

Rome and Greece, and in fact all ancient civilizations had no issues regarding same-gender sex until at the time of the Roman Empire, in Palestine, jews began condeming homosexuality. That condemnation and the subsequent criminalizing of the act found itself into the bible to some extent, It was only when Justinian, the first Roman Emperor to embrace Christianity in Constantinople, codified anit-homosexual Christian doctrine that homosexuality was condemed in the Roman Empire. The western nations bear that yoke today, although gradually shedding it.

Is it surprising that male children, raised in a homophobic society, grow up with often violent reactions to the issue, in themselves and in others? I have found that the higher the educational level of the individual and the more traveled and sophisicated he/she is, the less of an issue homosexuality is.

[wcr]

Education level has nothing to do with it in my experience. Which country are you from? If like me you come from the UK, the upper classes and higher educated are just as unaccepting of us as are the lower classes poor educated societies.

[Jeepz]

wcr~

My experience is somewhat the reverse of yours. The more educated an individual is, the more experimental they are likely to be. But I don't mean that is a requirement but simply a correlation that seems to occur often. Now, I will mention that my experience in this area is with women as my partner. But I know how guys talk among themselves and most of the blue collar guys I've chatted with did not sound particularly inventive or curious about alternatives or even unusual sex play. I don't mean that they all were "missionary style" only, but you didn't hear much about role playing or fetish or whatever. And, of course, they may do it, but having had negative experiences relating it to others, just tend to keep quiet about that aspect of their lives.

I did note, among a few of men, that there was a somewhat cherished experience early on with ... wait for it ... no not hookers, but nurses. I don't have wide enough experience to make any serious comment, but I have listened to at least three guys that had relationships with nurses while they were young and thought it was one of the best things for them in terms of becoming good lovers (at least in their own estimation) and getting good info on what to do and how to do it.

Again, nurses have fairly good educations and are familiar with the human body, it's weakness and, uhmm, strengths.

mrmnp knows my views on ancient roman homosexuality, accepted, but not quite as completely as he sees it. The same seems to be true for ancient Greece. Young male lovers were quite acceptable, but once they got fairly fuzzy (sexually mature) it was less acceptable. Or so I've read. But then the spin of facts may well be colored by the writer's (author's/researcher's/academic's) agenda.

Something along those lines occurred with the an archeologist found a cave with paintings showing some very bloody activity. Since early on the Mayan had been thought a peaceful group compared to the Aztecs, so this guy simply could not accept what he saw. He came up with all sorts of explanations that did not involve blood letting. He was, as more research showed, wrong.

Jeepz

[mrmnp]

As is Jeepz, I am from the U.S., however my comments regarding tolerance of others differences being directly proportional to education, travel and sophistication was made from my world travels and the numerous "high society" parties I have attended, when I did such things.

I have never attended a college "faculty party" as Jeepz has, but I would be very surprised if such a party at Oxford or Eton would involve homophobic rhetoric or discrimination. Ditto Harvard. Oral Roberts University and the like, I suspect would be otherwise.

My experience has been that regardless of how intelligent you are or how well travelled you are, if you adhere to the dogma of a faith-based religion, your reason escapes you and you adopt the religions dogma you adhere to. There are "Teflon" church goers, and they of course would be exceptions. Once again, the dangers of sweeping generalities.

[Jeepz]

Sorry, I should clear up a misconception now. I'm not a college prof or have I ever been one. I took some college courses along the way, a bit of French, this and that, mostly humanities and that sort of stuff. But I'm just your run-of-the-mill, blue-collar kinda shmoo.

[translation: shmoo == obliging little creatures. From Al Capp's Lil Abner comics]

Jeepz

[wcr]

mrmnp

Be surprised then! Oxford Eaton and the like are full of bigoted homophobics. Gay guys obviously attend these institutions, however their sexuality is something that is usually kept private. The reason being is as you have stated, these places tend to be very Christian and full of people from the upper classes/well off. The UK is not the USA, and we have this bloody awful class system. And no I've not got some hidden agenda here, the class factor is real in the UK, particularly within higher education.

[mrmnp]

Do you think that Thai's think in classes?. My experience is that there is a form of class system here, ie. high class city dwellers and low class farm dwellers, etc.

[Guest The Judge]

If one considers the headlines some months ago in various Thai Language broadsheets about "hi-so shenanigans, I have to believe the class system is well and truly in place and operating.

The shenanigans were of course about promiscuity among the High-so people.

Looked for and didn't find a certain 40 million baht watch wearer. Disguise is wonderful.

[Guest endure]

In my experience it depends on how many beers the 'hetro guy' has downed

What's the difference between a gay man and a straight man?

Six pints of lager

[davethailand]

sorry endure, that does'nt apply to this man.

[Guest endure]

sorry endure, that does'nt apply to this man.

It wasn't meant to. It was a joke.

[beautiful_stranger]

How exactly is someone gay or hetro?

Difficult one . . . .personally I think society conditions us as a race to lean towards the opposite sex. However, if we can at some point disguard this stereo-typing and go with our natural instincts - we have the potential to enjoy liasons with both sexes in a really dignified manner. 'Pigeon-hole' this as 'bisexuality' if you will. I don't adhere to that . . .I sleep with/become intimate with whoever turns me on - spiritually, mentally and physically. It matters not to me - its the one-on-one experience/relationship that I treasure and identify with - not the label other people choose to give me!

[Ulysses G.]

I've thought a lot about the PC notion that "everyone" is bi-sexual.

All I can say is that when I was a child (5 years old and up), I would masturbate about the most sinful, disgusting scenarios possible. Fantasies involving whips, chains, incest, (willing) rape, multiple partners, everything that you can think of. I was wild with lust, and no matter that I thought that I would burn in ###### for these thoughts, I couldn't control any of them.

However, none of these fantasies ever involved other males or animals.

I know what I think is normal for me.

[Sandy]

I love guys and like girls...i guess u can call me "BI". But the liking girls part is more of a crush. yeah, I'll be checking out the females, i still do. Yes, been with girls, but prefer guys. But havent been with a female for about 2 years now. Why? I felt the years that l was into females, was like a stage. I called myself "bi-curious". After i knew what it was like, my curiousity was gone. But dont get me wrong, i still check girls out, but dont have the urge to do anything with them. I was in a stage and apparently grew out of it as i got older. Maybe thats why people call themselves straight then bi then gay, or maybe the other way around. Cause those people like myself, is going or went through a stage.

[Zendesigner]

Sandy

You are making yourself every guy's dream.

Young thai girl, American raised with an education, Coming to thailand soon, Outspoken, Like's men to cook for her , And now your Bi also?

Most men's hidden dream

Girl you will have to swat them away like flies....

B

edit:

And you're even born in september like me !!

[Sandy]

*wink wink* Zen...sometimes i turn myself on too LOL

One thing though, i never been with a Thai woman. Hmmm...how different could that be?

Seriously, i see nothing wrong with liking men and women at the same time. Or if you're a man liking only a man...and is willing to admit to it, props to u.

[Zendesigner]

*wink wink* Zen...sometimes i turn myself on too LOL

pfff... Chan Roo Sut Lonn maag maag.....

(getting hot here)

One thing though, i never been with a Thai woman. Hmmm...how different could that be?

I've been with some , i like them more then the farang girls i must say.

Seriously, i see nothing wrong with liking men and women at the same time. Or if you're a man liking only a man...and is willing to admit to it, props to u.

Everybody's own bread and butter i suppose ? I'm strictly hetero, played around in my time and did some wild stuff like a threesome and so on but if a man tries to touch me i'll probably punch him right back. It's just an instinct.

I have nothing against gay's by the way, but it's just a normal reaction.

Up 2 you , they say here so ????

B

[Bozo]

The confusion comes from the labelling.

A man is a XY, and a woman is a XX.

Whatever physical modification is made, the fact remains the same.

To the effect of reproduction, a XY has to copulate with a XX, this is life.

Let's publicize the word "copulate"; I actually love to copulate !

To the effect of pleasure, everything is possible.

XY can copulate with XX, many XX, XY, many XY.

XX can copulate with XY, many XY, XX, many XX.

XX or XY can "copulate" with whatever specy, tools & ideas they wish.

The aim is to collect emotions.

To the effect of Love, everything is possible.

But it has N O T H I N G to do with copulation.

It can nevertheless work in parrallel with copulation.

It does multiply by an infinite factor the collection of emotions.

The aim is to let the feelings be the multiplication factor.

Why should we label the habbit of copulating with whoever or whatever ?

Why should we label the copulation with or without Love ?

Why should we say some are good or bad ?

Why should we judge ?

Why don't we just appreciate & enjoy it ?

Question 1: Isn't the labelling a cultural habbit directly linked with reflexes of categorizing & judging, to the end of controlling (power) ?

Question 2: Whatever we do, are we a hetero, a homo, a gay, a qwir, a katoy, a lesbian, a bozo or rather a XX or XY, or even simply a human being, just ourself ?

[Sandy]

Bozo: you're making it sound even more confusing. LOL

[tuky]

Dear Tukyleith,

It's not that I see 'much harm' in sexual labels but that I wanted to say that often it is difficult to be 'exact' via using a label.

Actually this can be a very long discussion but I will just make the following points for now :

*There are those who LATER IN LIFE 'find out' or say they now feel more comfortable being gay. So shall we define them as 'heterosexual-turned-gay' ? Maybe later in life they will feel that they consider themselves 'bisexual'.

etc etc etc.

JemJem, sometime ago you posted this question to me in the Lets Open The Closet!, and take a look inside. link.

It has taken me a while to answer as I have been thinking long and hard, and while this may not be a direct answer, perhaps there is an answer in here somewhere.

I have a friend, he is a gay man. He is perhaps at this point in my life the best and only true friend I have.

I have no physical attraction to this man, I do not want to sleep with him, I look at his face and I do not want to kiss him. This is not because he is unattractive, it is because I find feminine traits more attractive.

However, I am totally lost in his company. I find I want to impress him, I want him to think highly of me, When we arrange to meet up (which isn't very often, due to physical parametres) my heart flutters and I long for the time when we meet up. When we are together I do not want our time to end, just like how I feel with my wife. But when we are together my wife gets the 2nd thought when it comes to time allocation, she understands and is very happy with the arrangement.

I can honestly say that I love this man, it is not a sexual lust infact I find nothing sexual about him but it is my heart screaming to me that this man is important to me in my life.

Am I gay? am I Bi? NO, I am human...

Originally the debate between us was about labels, I have come to realise, through the friendship I have with this man that labels are not improtant emotionally, but caring, friendship and loyalty are.

Whilst the world in general needs labels so we can classify WHAT we are and WHERE we fit in individually, I think the lesson to be learnt here is that the only thing that really matters is WHO we are with. If they are the people that you love, with all your heart then the world as you know it is going to be the place you always dreamt it would be.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to that original thread and question, but I guess it took this thread for me to realise what it was I really needed to say.

I doubt my friend will be reading the posts on the board, but if he was I would want him to know all that I have said.

Lova ya man.

tukyleith

[TizMe]

I too have a friend that isn't female. He is a very true friend, I enjoy his company every day that I'm in Thailand.

I have no physical sexual attraction to him, I do not want to sleep with him, I look at his face and I do not want to kiss him. This is not because he is unattractive, it is because I also find feminine traits more attractive.

However, I get totally lost in his company.

When we are together I do not want our time to end, just like how I feel with my wife. But when we are together my GF gets the 2nd thought when it comes to time allocation, she understands and is very happy with the arrangement.

I can honestly say that I love him, it is not a sexual lust infact I find nothing sexual about him but it is my heart screaming to me that he is important to me in my life.

You may already know him. His name is Beer Chang.

Tiz

[tuky]

carnt 'iz.

well done, you have turned my first truly in depth, full of feeling post into a beer ad.

Well Done, I never saw it coming but funny as h@ll.

[tuky]

By the way, what are you doing in the gay forum...why aren't you off in that far que?

[JemJem]

Dear Tukyleith,

Thanks for your post. It was a well-written and also moving post.

Well, in the end, we are all very much unique INDIVIDUALS and labelling can only be 'approximate' !

The concepts of 'labelling'/'generalisations', and the advantages and disadvantages of them can be quite a discussion.

I guess one important thing is to accept who you are and try to be happy with who you are.

Regards,

Jem

[Guest IT Manager]

*wink wink* Zen...sometimes i turn myself on too LOL

pfff... Chan Roo Sut Lonn maag maag.....

(getting hot here)

One thing though, i never been with a Thai woman. Hmmm...how different could that be?

I've been with some , i like them more then the farang girls i must say.

Seriously, i see nothing wrong with liking men and women at the same time. Or if you're a man liking only a man...and is willing to admit to it, props to u.

Everybody's own bread and butter i suppose ? I'm strictly hetero, played around in my time and did some wild stuff like a threesome and so on but if a man tries to touch me i'll probably punch him right back. It's just an instinct.

I have nothing against gay's by the way, but it's just a normal reaction.

Up 2 you , they say here so ????

B

HAve an incredibly hard time seeing that happen.

[Sandy]

IT...what are u having a hard time seeing? geeeesh get your mind out of the gutter hehehehe

[Khutan]

Well well, out of the closet you all come.....

I have removed the rest of this post, I just realised what group it was in.....

Sandy; ummmm, this is sensitive but.....

I called myself "bi-curious". After i knew what it was like, my curiousity was gone. But dont get me wrong, i still check girls out

Do you have any photos, I am sure I can sell them for 95% commission

[JemJem]

Come on, folks.....we are trying to have a serious discussion on 'sexuality and labels'. And, you have hijacked the thread by flirting with Sandy ! What a shame !

Nah...just teasing you

Regards,

Jem