I have just witnessed two occurrences of double pricing policy - Do Thai's know that this hurts?

[aTomsLife]

Fair enough. By definition, what Thais are doing isn't racism. I was wrong to say it was, and I apologize. Though I still believe it's unethical, just like I believe it's unethical for pharmaceutical companies to charge more for medicine in wealthier countries, just because they can. It's a form of exploitation, period.

All countries should treat foreigners like nationals?

Where did I say that?

[thailiketoo]

Fair enough. By definition, what Thais are doing isn't racism. I was wrong to say it was, and I apologize. Though I still believe it's unethical, just like I believe it's unethical for pharmaceutical companies to charge more for medicine in wealthier countries, just because they can. It's a form of exploitation, period.

All countries should treat foreigners like nationals?

Where did I say that?

It was a question with a question mark and everything (?)

[Fookhaht]

 

A lot of the places people are talking about, such as govt subsidised attractions and national parks, are being paid for by Thais through their taxes. There's no reason a tourist shouldn't pay a premium.

 

 

Your argument has absolutely no validity for those us of us who live here as ex-pats.

I have been paying taxes for over 11 years and at a much higher rate than most of my Thai friends. When I show evidence of this (my tax card and work permit) it makes absolutely no difference to the park officials.

Simple greed and economics.

 

I seriously doubt that you are paying taxes at a higher rate. The income tax rates are the same for both Thais and foreigners. Perhaps you pay more tax than your Thai friends because you are earning a higher salary than them.

 

That does not take away from your argument that paying taxes does not help in getting you into venues for the same fee as Thais.

 

PS My work permit and tax payer's ID card do not state how much tax I am paying.

 

Sorry for nitpicking, but you caught me on a bad day.

Sorry, "higher rate" was a poor choice of terms. Because my salary puts me in the top 20% or less of Thai wage earners, I pay more taxes than the average Thai. Thanks for forcing a clarification on this.

Secondly, showing the tax card and a work permit is pretty strong indication that I pay taxes, wouldn't you say so? Even though it does not state the amount you pay? Just the fact that I pay taxes should put me into the category of the Thai contributor when it comes to contributing to the government expenses.

Now, anything else to nitpick about?

[brit1984]

Children and the elderly get discounts which is the complete opposite of overcharging, really don't see your point at all.

Overweight people are charged more for clothing here because more material is required; there are higher costs involved. Just as there are higher costs associated with insuring their health, so there is justification to make them pay more. What Thais do is look to exploit people because of how they look or what language they speak. There is no fundamental reason to charge them more. It's a morally bankrupt practice. Rationalize it however you want, but your arguments are illogical.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

whether you call it a discount for one group or a higher price for another group, is completely irrelevant (for some businesses the thai customers are in the minority) - it is still justified by the same perfectly logical economic concept - i.e. price discrimination as explained in all high school economic textbooks (or google if you studied music instead)

this is not exploitation (and to use that word is quite bizarre) - nobody is being forced to buy goods / services - they only do so if the utility they gain from the good / service is worth as much / more to them than the cash they need to give in exchange - i.e. they gain a benefit from the transaction - there is nothing unfair about that

obviously i can understand why some people do not like this (jealousy / self-interest is human nature) and i also understand why some thai people think its unfair that any westerner can show up with nothing more than a white face and find employment with a salary much higher than the average thai (although as with dual pricing there are logical economic reasons / market forces that explain this)

Completely irrelevant to you, but discounting one group and surcharging another are not moral equivalents. Thanks for the pseudo economics lesson, though. But just because something can be defined as a feature of capital markets doesn't automatically make it moral in any context. But go on thinking like a robot, it's doing wonders for your personality, I can tell.

There was nothing bizarre about my useage of the word exploit. Words have multiple meanings in case you didn't learn that in grade school: Here's the definition for you: to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exploit?s=t

It's not a question of being forced to buy something. People don't like being taken advantage of. If the local economy supports a certain price, people don't wish to pay above that. Often there's no warning that one is being surcharged, and so no opportunity to take one's business elsewhere. In such instances it's exploitation, plain and simple.

by using morality / fairness in this context you are arguing that you have some greater moral right to have wealth / income than the vendor (who would need to charge you less in a one price system and therefore make less profit) or thai consumers (who would need to pay more in a one price system for the vendor to achieve the same profit) never mind that some could no longer afford the new price (but based on your "morals" that is less important than you gaining super-normal utility by paying a price that is WELL BELOW the price you are willing / able to pay, rather than just BELOW the price you are willing / able to pay)

interfering with free markets for example through restrictions on what prices businesses are allowed to charge is highly inefficient - in a world where the government is not able to monitor and control each and every transaction in the economy to ensure that it is morally optimal (whatever that may mean), the only sensible approach is to allow businesses to maximize profits and then re-allocate income / wealth via taxation and redistribution (based on your "morals" that would mean a system to transfer money to you of course)

[brit1984]

@spambot

obviously it would be more economically efficient (optimal in fact) if all businesses had a portable brain scanner to check all customers' willingness to pay, and x-ray vision goggles to scan wallets to check all customers ability to pay

but as most businesses (including some thai street noodle vendors) do not have both of these devices, they group customers into groups with each group willing to pay a different average price - this is still more economically efficient than a one price system

as the average westerners has an income many times more than the average thai, it is logical to assume the average price they can pay will also be higher - that logic is not undermined by the existence of poor westerners and rich thais, just as there are some rich kids / students / discount coupon collectors / etc

i agree that judging people based on their skin colour has negative connotations and it would be bad if the noodle vendors refused to serve white people (or spat in their noodles) but double pricing is good (even if it does not benefit you personally)

I do have some sympathy for your argument - Since it would be any easy decision to make for pricing decision non Thai are richer and have the means since Thai nationals generally do not have the same economic ability to pay.

Living myself few hundred yards from near Khao san Rd - On my soi it is a mix of four star hotels and 150 Baht per night hostels for the backpackers all very close together - In the centre area there are noodle carts that can see where the people come from since the frond door of one of the four star hotels is facing the carts and to the side of them about 10 metres is two hostels with a pathway that makes the decision fairly easy to identify where their customer is from.

There are a great many Thai nationals that tend to stay in the four star hotel (4,000 Baht per night) mostly on business so they are richer than most and strangers to the area, but importantly they are Thai national - They pay a lesser price than the backpackers coming from their 150 Baht per night hostel who are less able to pay for the same goods.

This is not an economic decision being made by these vendors when they set the price of their goods and has nothing to do with an ability to pay.

of course setting their price is an economic decision - whether they are consciously calculating price elasticity of demand for different groups, drawing charts to determine the optimal price, etc is doubtful - but whether its through copying the pricing models of their most profitable friends/ family/ competitors, or that they have learnt through their own trial an error, they are setting prices to maximize profits, which (in the context of a free market where everyone has access to information on prices and is able to choose between different suppliers, etc) is good

[uptheos]

Boy, if I were repeatedly charged double or overcharged, it would really piss me off big time and I'd feel the need to write volumes about it on here. Fortunately, I don't seem to encounter all the overcharging prices, so unfortunately I can't vent my frustrations about it.........gotta try harder to get ripped off, I'm obviously buying from the wrong places.

[louse1953]

You accepted the price,so that is the price.3 months!bit slow on the uptake mate.

[spambot]

@spambot

obviously it would be more economically efficient (optimal in fact) if all businesses had a portable brain scanner to check all customers' willingness to pay, and x-ray vision goggles to scan wallets to check all customers ability to pay

but as most businesses (including some thai street noodle vendors) do not have both of these devices, they group customers into groups with each group willing to pay a different average price - this is still more economically efficient than a one price system

as the average westerners has an income many times more than the average thai, it is logical to assume the average price they can pay will also be higher - that logic is not undermined by the existence of poor westerners and rich thais, just as there are some rich kids / students / discount coupon collectors / etc

i agree that judging people based on their skin colour has negative connotations and it would be bad if the noodle vendors refused to serve white people (or spat in their noodles) but double pricing is good (even if it does not benefit you personally)

I do have some sympathy for your argument - Since it would be any easy decision to make for pricing decision non Thai are richer and have the means since Thai nationals generally do not have the same economic ability to pay.

Living myself few hundred yards from near Khao san Rd - On my soi it is a mix of four star hotels and 150 Baht per night hostels for the backpackers all very close together - In the centre area there are noodle carts that can see where the people come from since the frond door of one of the four star hotels is facing the carts and to the side of them about 10 metres is two hostels with a pathway that makes the decision fairly easy to identify where their customer is from.

There are a great many Thai nationals that tend to stay in the four star hotel (4,000 Baht per night) mostly on business so they are richer than most and strangers to the area, but importantly they are Thai national - They pay a lesser price than the backpackers coming from their 150 Baht per night hostel who are less able to pay for the same goods.

This is not an economic decision being made by these vendors when they set the price of their goods and has nothing to do with an ability to pay.

of course setting their price is an economic decision - whether they are consciously calculating price elasticity of demand for different groups, drawing charts to determine the optimal price, etc is doubtful - but whether its through copying the pricing models of their most profitable friends/ family/ competitors, or that they have learnt through their own trial an error, they are setting prices to maximize profits, which (in the context of a free market where everyone has access to information on prices and is able to choose between different suppliers, etc) is good

I love each of your counter arguments - They are all strong and have valve and shows that you clearly understand the economic models in play. I especially like your observations that you make when you cite an indicator of a segmentation and ability to pay - Each of them made me think about my own arguing position - Since what you say make a lot of sense.

However I am not on the same page as your thinking.

In the end like many things in life there is no absolute answer - You believe that this is an economics issue and so all sellers should be allowed to optimise and maximise profits whenever they find the opportunity. And the opposite to this I think this economic model for optimisation should not be at the heart of this question for premium prices since non Thais are mostly never offered the same price as a Thai national and so they are unable to decide what is fair or unfair pricing.

Edited December 9, 2013 by spambot

[spambot]

You accepted the price,so that is the price.3 months!bit slow on the uptake mate.

Love the ending to your comment 'Mate' - Your a Brit right?

Reminds me of being home in UK and being in the pub and hearing the banter - Everyone was 'mate' - Hey your round mate - Game of darts mate - No offence mate etc

Edited December 9, 2013 by spambot

[proovms]

I have found that ordering in (horribly pronounced) Thai gets me the Thai rates, and ordering in English gets me an inflated price. There are places where it makes no difference, like the Night Bazaar in Chiang Mai, where a fake pair of shorts costs more than a bar of gold.

[aTomsLife]

Children and the elderly get discounts which is the complete opposite of overcharging, really don't see your point at all.

Overweight people are charged more for clothing here because more material is required; there are higher costs involved. Just as there are higher costs associated with insuring their health, so there is justification to make them pay more. What Thais do is look to exploit people because of how they look or what language they speak. There is no fundamental reason to charge them more. It's a morally bankrupt practice. Rationalize it however you want, but your arguments are illogical.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

whether you call it a discount for one group or a higher price for another group, is completely irrelevant (for some businesses the thai customers are in the minority) - it is still justified by the same perfectly logical economic concept - i.e. price discrimination as explained in all high school economic textbooks (or google if you studied music instead)

this is not exploitation (and to use that word is quite bizarre) - nobody is being forced to buy goods / services - they only do so if the utility they gain from the good / service is worth as much / more to them than the cash they need to give in exchange - i.e. they gain a benefit from the transaction - there is nothing unfair about that

obviously i can understand why some people do not like this (jealousy / self-interest is human nature) and i also understand why some thai people think its unfair that any westerner can show up with nothing more than a white face and find employment with a salary much higher than the average thai (although as with dual pricing there are logical economic reasons / market forces that explain this)

Completely irrelevant to you, but discounting one group and surcharging another are not moral equivalents. Thanks for the pseudo economics lesson, though. But just because something can be defined as a feature of capital markets doesn't automatically make it moral in any context. But go on thinking like a robot, it's doing wonders for your personality, I can tell.

There was nothing bizarre about my useage of the word exploit. Words have multiple meanings in case you didn't learn that in grade school: Here's the definition for you: to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exploit?s=t

It's not a question of being forced to buy something. People don't like being taken advantage of. If the local economy supports a certain price, people don't wish to pay above that. Often there's no warning that one is being surcharged, and so no opportunity to take one's business elsewhere. In such instances it's exploitation, plain and simple.

by using morality / fairness in this context you are arguing that you have some greater moral right to have wealth / income than the vendor (who would need to charge you less in a one price system and therefore make less profit) or thai consumers (who would need to pay more in a one price system for the vendor to achieve the same profit) never mind that some could no longer afford the new price (but based on your "morals" that is less important than you gaining super-normal utility by paying a price that is WELL BELOW the price you are willing / able to pay, rather than just BELOW the price you are willing / able to pay)

interfering with free markets for example through restrictions on what prices businesses are allowed to charge is highly inefficient - in a world where the government is not able to monitor and control each and every transaction in the economy to ensure that it is morally optimal (whatever that may mean), the only sensible approach is to allow businesses to maximize profits and then re-allocate income / wealth via taxation and redistribution (based on your "morals" that would mean a system to transfer money to you of course)

Spare me the strawman tactics. I'm not arguing I have a greater moral right to wealth in general, but a right to protect the money I've earned from those looking to exploit me. If everything is out in the open and as a consumer I can make an informed decision, I don't take issue with it. I'm not looking to interfere with free markets - vendors have a right to charge whatever they want. But as a consumer, I believe I have rights to. And like I said, often tourists find themselves in situations where they have no choice but to pay, e.g., a bill at a restaurant for food that's already been eaten. That is immoral. Sorry your education has stripped you of the common sense necessary to see that. Though I'm sure some here are really impressed with your use of jargon.

Edit: If you're inclined to have the last word, go for it. I'm finished with this topic, though.

Edited December 10, 2013 by aTomsLife

[jackr]

Avoid being overly friendly/meek/accepting with the natives, they will sniff it out and take their chance whenever they can. They're not all like this, but the person in your example is.

[Keesters]

I've not done it for a while but there was always one thing I could do in Pattaya cheaper than my Thai counterpart. Rent a motorcycle. Many vendors wouldn't rent to Thais at any price. One vendor I got to know reasonably well said it was because a Thai ALWAYS returned the m/c damaged in some way and then wouldn't have the money to pay for the damage. "Farang much better driver", she used to tell me, "get cheaper price".

[GarryP]

A lot of the places people are talking about, such as govt subsidised attractions and national parks, are being paid for by Thais through their taxes. There's no reason a tourist shouldn't pay a premium.

Your argument has absolutely no validity for those us of us who live here as ex-pats.

I have been paying taxes for over 11 years and at a much higher rate than most of my Thai friends. When I show evidence of this (my tax card and work permit) it makes absolutely no difference to the park officials.

Simple greed and economics.

I seriously doubt that you are paying taxes at a higher rate. The income tax rates are the same for both Thais and foreigners. Perhaps you pay more tax than your Thai friends because you are earning a higher salary than them.

That does not take away from your argument that paying taxes does not help in getting you into venues for the same fee as Thais.

PS My work permit and tax payer's ID card do not state how much tax I am paying.

Sorry for nitpicking, but you caught me on a bad day.

Sorry, "higher rate" was a poor choice of terms. Because my salary puts me in the top 20% or less of Thai wage earners, I pay more taxes than the average Thai. Thanks for forcing a clarification on this.

Secondly, showing the tax card and a work permit is pretty strong indication that I pay taxes, wouldn't you say so? Even though it does not state the amount you pay? Just the fact that I pay taxes should put me into the category of the Thai contributor when it comes to contributing to the government expenses.

Now, anything else to nitpick about?

No. You just about summed everything up. I new exactly what you were trying to say. You just caught me on an off day.

[brit1984]

@spambot and aTomsLife

you are both (implicitly) making a very good point that there is a potential market inefficiency from asymmetric information (for example when prices not clearly stated) which is not good

ironically, if the vendors made the dual pricing more clear, it would undoubtedly make more people upset but would actually be closer to an inefficient market and fairer outcome for all market participants (including those paying more)

but anyway, as you also both imply, we are all irrational and emotional humans and i understand why you dismiss the logic of economics (and why dual pricing upsets you) as we do not live life our lives in theory

i do hope you will understand though that the force of the invisible hand of the market is so powerful that it is best just to live with it as it is (and try to maximize your benefit / utility from it)

EDIT > although obviously nothing wrong (especially if it gives you pleasure by releasing some anger) with posting your thoughts on this forum, even if that means redirecting your anger onto me (or the anonymous forum member / avatar that i control)

Edited December 11, 2013 by brit1984

[Bpuumike]

I've seen large billboards advertising Condos, top half in English with price , bottom half in Thai with the price in thai numbers cheaper so Falang can't read, ...... TIT alt=coffee1.gif width=32 height=24>

What makes you think a foreigner considering a condo purchase can't read Thai numbers, they're dead easy to learn.

I agree, but theres many falang who cannot read thai, in fact I've come across a few who never even realised that there are numbers inThai ...

5555

[spambot]

@spambot and aTomsLife

you are both (implicitly) making a very good point that there is a potential market inefficiency from asymmetric information (for example when prices not clearly stated) which is not good

ironically, if the vendors made the dual pricing more clear, it would undoubtedly make more people upset but would actually be closer to an inefficient market and fairer outcome for all market participants (including those paying more)

but anyway, as you also both imply, we are all irrational and emotional humans and i understand why you dismiss the logic of economics (and why dual pricing upsets you) as we do not live life our lives in theory

i do hope you will understand though that the force of the invisible hand of the market is so powerful that it is best just to live with it as it is (and try to maximize your benefit / utility from it)

EDIT > although obviously nothing wrong (especially if it gives you pleasure by releasing some anger) with posting your thoughts on this forum, even if that means redirecting your anger onto me (or the anonymous forum member / avatar that i control)

I like your logic because it shows your education - I like your anger because it shows you are human - And most of all I like this post because it shows your potency for caring.

So don't stop any of these - Keep your beating heart and roar with delight at your capacity to remain vital. 8+)

[Bpuumike]

I dont know what it is but i never ever get charged more ,maybe its because i look as if i am a local living here in Pattaya ,at entertainment venues just show my driving licence and get Thai price ,only once been charged farang price and that was on the yellow sumbmarine ,but as it was our sons birthday treat could hardly walk away.

is it because you look like a tourist op?

Yup you are probably right - I knew I should have hidden my maps, stopped taking pics of the food I was eating and stopped asking every tuc tuc driver how much it costs to go to Central world.

Pattaya I feel, (but I do not really know for sure) works in a non dual pricing only if you do know the systems and how they should operate. I remember the first time I went to Pattaya and I got out the songthaew and asked how much - He said 20Baht (because I asked - He knew I didn't know and he then knew that there was an opportunity for gain) - Yep its only 10 Baht (Beach rd) and then also 6 weeks ago I took the songthaew from bus station to walking street - Everyone got off and I was the last - Chinese girl was charged 30 Baht and the same for two English guys - I refused to pay the inflated price. We only got back to the correct price when I pointed to the local bobby across the road indicating we ask him what the fixed price was.

But obviously when you know your way around then you don't walk into these tourist traps since you know they are there i.e now when I now get to the bus station in Pattaya I walk over the road and pay my10 Baht to a passing songthaew without the waiting and herding that goes on at the bus terminal for tourists.

You take a tuk tuk to Central World! Sort of says it all.

[klons]

There is a restaurant named the ระเบียงน้ำ on the klawng on the north side of

Latkrabang Road about 100 meters east of RomKlao. It’s right under the flight

path of the jetliners from the airport. They fly over at low altitude which I think is

cool as long as they don’t accidentally dump the sludge tank.

Anyhow. they have 2 seperate menus, one in English and one in Thai. The prices

on the English menu are about 30% higher than matching items on the Thai menu.

It was actually a Thai who pointed it out to me, finding spring rolls on the Thai

menu and comparing to English language menu. I was able to confirm this sneaky

business because they made the mistake of spelling Heineken in english on the Thai

menu. If you order a large bottle off the English menu it’s 130 Baht, if you order from

the Thai menu it’s 100 baht.We ordered from the Thai menu and got the Thai prices.

Well not we, the Thai in our party did the ordering.

[somchaismith]

There is a restaurant named the ระเบียงน้ำ on the klawng on the north side of

Latkrabang Road about 100 meters east of RomKlao. It’s right under the flight

path of the jetliners from the airport. They fly over at low altitude which I think is

cool as long as they don’t accidentally dump the sludge tank.

Anyhow. they have 2 seperate menus, one in English and one in Thai. The prices

on the English menu are about 30% higher than matching items on the Thai menu.

It was actually a Thai who pointed it out to me, finding spring rolls on the Thai

menu and comparing to English language menu. I was able to confirm this sneaky

business because they made the mistake of spelling Heineken in english on the Thai

menu. If you order a large bottle off the English menu it’s 130 Baht, if you order from

the Thai menu it’s 100 baht.We ordered from the Thai menu and got the Thai prices.

Well not we, the Thai in our party did the ordering.

It must be a fairly cheap kind of establishment in Bangkok. Don't get me wrong I hate the pricks who cheat on the prices but <deleted> any less than a 100 baht for a large bottle of Heineken and you'll be with the soi dogs sitting on the steps of 7/11.

Edited February 23, 2014 by somchaismith

[Scarpolo]

it cuts two ways, and sometimes brings unexpected benefits,

example:

took Thai girlfriend to Asiatique this weekend, specifically to go on the ferris wheel,

got there, walked around until she had the courage, and bought two tickets, clealy stated Adults 250 baht.

private car, 1000 baht.

my g/f objected to the private car price and told me, not to pay it, we can go w others.

I gave the older female cashier 1,000 baht and asked for two non private tickets, she gave ne back 550 baht. I didnt understand why, but took it,

got to the line, chatted it up w a canadien couple, and then looked at the tickets, my girlfriends ticket was 200 baht, so, I savd 50 baht!,

but, it wasnt over, after fully expecting to have to share the car now,

I decided to test the system, and gave the two tickets to my g/f to hand to the young thai kid working the isle,

to my delight, he waved just me up, and gave up a private car, for free.....why?

benefits are abounding when looking at the glass as half full,

my g/f is a staunch negotiator, she always bargains for everything, and what I do is simpy watch her,

occiasionally if I am in a store, or at one of the thousands of night bazaars in the country, I always ask for the "thai price"

some laugh, others smile, some say no, almost all say yes, and no one says no, to her