"Would that there be a real democratic movement, beholden neither to Thaksin or to these conservatives"

Something we definitely agree upon.

BlueSky's closure has been threatened by FM-Surapong, as head of CAPO, no less. Although it hasn't yet happened, but it does demonstrate the way the Reds have moved away from fighting for freedom-of-speech, since they themselves were in-opposition.

On Thursday night he was also reported as having ordered the arrest of executives of Blue Sky, for the 'crime' of supporting Suthep.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/686989-thai-govt-readjusts-response-to-protests;-time-for-talk-finished/#entry7126673

It feels more like 1984, than 2013, doesn't it ?

There is much about Suthep's current position, which I personally do not agree with, I think he's been backed-into-a-corner by Tharit & Thaksin, but I would still say that the people coming out to demonstrate their view that it's now time for a change is a good thing, especially if it strengthens PM-Yingluck's hand when she offers new elections within 60-days, despite the PTP-MPs-meeting and her own family's views, expressed both privately & in public.

Time for an election !

Oh, so Surapong actually said he was going to close it? Because I read elsewhere that the legal action was what they were doing instead of closing it, not as well as. I don't agree with the legal action, but I'd guess it's for something like promoting sedition rather than just supporting Suthep. It would definitely be a mistake to close Blue Sky. Abhisit's government learnt in 2010 that closing down opposition media can actually galvanize rather than deflate a social movement.

I still don't think Suthep is under any real threat of arrest or prosecution (though I guess he might see jail like the red shirts did in 2010 - doubt it though). But I'd agree totally that it's time for another election and a fresh start.

I thought these were supposed to be educated people.

They are. That's why they are trying to remove a government that acts illegally, refuses to obey the law, has increased corruption and openly cavorts with a convicted criminal whilst attempting to introduce a law to whitewash him.

I will refer back to this post when parents of "innocent" and "unarmed" dead students come crying that their kids died.

From all accounts I have from Thais and the rumor mill, the protest is to be mmmmaaasssiiivvveee! We'll see.

Why would it be any bigger than any of the other final D Day's? If anything they are losing momentum not gaining it. Everyday they have a D day and nothing happens, they lose momentum. I doubt suddenly another 900K people will turn up.

University selection and where they go is merely a status symbol in Thailand

it does not mean a person is smarter or becomes a better person, it means their family can afford the tuition.

Really! There are many students that had to get a certain level of attainment in their exams to be offered a place at a Bangkok Uni, including my step daughter. Shows how much you know about the subject!

A bunch of college students protesting against the staus quo imagine that, I'll bet thats the first time this sort of thing ever happened The fact that Suthep and his cronies have to go out rouse these students into action speaks volumes about the lack of support for this movement! I guess it wasn't enough for Suthep to hide behind womens skirts now he's recruiting teenagers to stand on the front lines

It would be better if you took a few history lessons before writing nonsense.

From all accounts I have from Thais and the rumor mill, the protest is to be mmmmaaasssiiivvveee! We'll see.

Oh dear! Still dreaming of your "million man march", eh? Now whatever became of that?

Actually, packing the demo with these student thugs will only ensure that it will become violent, as did the last student attack on police HQ. Is this what Suthep wants? Blood on the streets could be his last chance to get the Army involved, the only way that he will ever win.

Hope all the grannies know that they will almost certainly be tear-gassed as a result of this.

I object to your remark about 'thugs'. My stepdaughter is at a Bangkok uni and is not a thug. You're a TV typical poster who tars everyone with the same brush.

Its about time the students mobilized in numbers,after all

its their country and future.

I don't believe the Democracy we have here is for the benefit

of the people,by the people,its a pseudo Democracy for the

benefit of one man,his family and cronies.

regards Worgeordie

Very true but the current alternative would be no better.

I can only say come on Chuwit.

I thought these were supposed to be educated people.

They of course are. That is why they oppose the Taksin Government. I doubt if you can claim to be educated if you support this government

I teach all of my students to think for themselves and they represent all of the major Universities involved. I'd never teach them to do something I wouldn't do myself and so I'll be there with them tomorrow.

You mean like how Thaksin's kids bought their way into uni, then paid other kids to take tests for them, then had to pay their way to a diploma? You mean like how Yingluck, with a Masters in Communications from an American university, cannot speak English worth a d*mn? You're right about that, doesn't matter what your education is, you can still be dumber than a box of rocks, YL and her PTP Parliament are testament to that. They are the poster children for elitism.

It's the uneducated who support the Red dictatorship.

I thought these were supposed to be educated people.

actually if they can afford the tuition fee, certainly they belong to the middle class and elite .... and some certainly did buy their

certificate.

University selection and where they go is merely a status symbol in Thailand

it does not mean a person is smarter or becomes a better person, it means their family can afford the tuition.

Some get scholarships !

Some have sponsorships from employers.

If you think Thailand's fascist dictatorship is anything approaching a democracy, then perhaps you should review what a democracy truly is. This is an autocracy ruled by a corrupt, criminally convicted, sadistic megalomaniac. Sadly there is no democracy here, just a thin tattered shroud.

These are not radicals mobilising against 'The Man'. They're supporting replacing democracy with a Grand Council of Fascism (misnamed the People's Council).

Sick, but we should we expect no less from a an RS troll.

I will refer back to this post when parents of "innocent" and "unarmed" dead students come crying that their kids died.

If you think Thailand's fascist dictatorship is anything approaching a democracy, then perhaps you should review what a democracy truly is. This is an autocracy ruled by a corrupt, criminally convicted, sadistic megalomaniac. Sadly there is no democracy here, just a thin tattered shroud.

These are not radicals mobilising against 'The Man'. They're supporting replacing democracy with a Grand Council of Fascism (misnamed the People's Council).

I'm not really a fan of protest. Be it Red or Yellow or PRDC crap. I find protests a 100% negative and zero positive for the country. But your comment really tickles me.

From your post, you are making me feel proud to be a Thai for living in a fascist country that still holds elections and allow oppositions in the parliament without taking them out to be shot much like the Mussolini, Hitler, Francisco and the likes of other fascist leader.

From my many years of educations and understanding democracy. It is the votes of the majority that counts and with that majority, a group is people is chosen to represent that majority together with a venue for the minority to be represented.

From the history of the Democrat party, it is quite obvious that they haven't came into power through elections. It's always through some form of coup or the likes of so. And whenever there's an election, they will always complain about their results, find way to get back into power without going through election knowing very well they will only lose again.

You know, it's hard to get a hardliner to understand democracy. Why don't you explain to me what democracy means to you so maybe I can see where I have misunderstood the term democracy?

From the scale of vote-buying that occurs for Thaksin-backed parties, how can you call this a majority? Don't tell me "the Dems also do it", because the scale of vote-buying for Dems and PTP is far, far apart, just like the amount of corruption that occurs under Dem governments and Thaksin governments. It is incomparable. When the village poo yais threaten you with grievous harm if you don' t vote the way you're told, is that democracy?

All of Thaksin's elections have come through massive vote-buying, on a scale unheard of in Thailand. His own handpicked Electoral Commission disbanded his party for vote-buying and electoral malfeasance. If your own handpicked cronies turn their back on you, what does that say about the scale of your malfeasance?

Suharto's Indonesia was theoretically a democracy, as was Marcos' Philippines..... would you, oh student of history and democracy, argue that those were democracies? Should they have waited for elections to address their grievances? Merely having elections doesn't guarantee a democracy. Many countries around the world hold sham elections. Your country is but one of many.

When someone is voted into power, should they be allowed to use the tyranny of the majority to steal and plunder from the people? If you love Thailand so much, why do you stand up for such aberrant behavior? You say, just wait for the elections, while Thaksin and his cronies bleed the country dry. Your Reds wouldn't wait for an election, even though Abhisit offered elections, they (Thaksin) refused, because he wanted to visit murder and destruction upon the country.

Do you really think that the rice scheme and all these other multi-billion baht boondoggles are meant to help ordinary Thais? Really? Oh just wait for the next election, mai pen rai, Don't worry me, I can't be bothered with silly protests, let me get back to my "educations" on democracy. Historically, how many autocratic regimes have been overthrown by protests? Did you read about that, oh student of democracy? You lecture me about history and democracy and useless protests, what about 1972? 1976?

If you really think that Thaksin/PTP are not fascists, then I truly feel sorry for you. I would think that the War on Drugs and Mae Sai/Tak Bai tragedies would be enough to convince any thinking person otherwise.

If you think Thailand's fascist dictatorship is anything approaching a democracy, then perhaps you should review what a democracy truly is. This is an autocracy ruled by a corrupt, criminally convicted, sadistic megalomaniac. Sadly there is no democracy here, just a thin tattered shroud.

These are not radicals mobilising against 'The Man'. They're supporting replacing democracy with a Grand Council of Fascism (misnamed the People's Council).

I'm not really a fan of protest. Be it Red or Yellow or PRDC crap. I find protests a 100% negative and zero positive for the country. But your comment really tickles me.

From your post, you are making me feel proud to be a Thai for living in a fascist country that still holds elections and allow oppositions in the parliament without taking them out to be shot much like the Mussolini, Hitler, Francisco and the likes of other fascist leader.

From my many years of educations and understanding democracy. It is the votes of the majority that counts and with that majority, a group is people is chosen to represent that majority together with a venue for the minority to be represented.

From the history of the Democrat party, it is quite obvious that they haven't came into power through elections. It's always through some form of coup or the likes of so. And whenever there's an election, they will always complain about their results, find way to get back into power without going through election knowing very well they will only lose again.

You know, it's hard to get a hardliner to understand democracy. Why don't you explain to me what democracy means to you so maybe I can see where I have misunderstood the term democracy?

Those deriding Suthep, whilst I agree with some points to a certain extent, he is by far FAR VERY F!!@#$%^&* FAR !!!! the lesser of 2 evils.

Don't they have class?

Going on a student demo is part of a university education. They will turn up, shout slogans then go home. Their tutors will shaft them on their course work marks for missing class.

I thought these were supposed to be educated people.

actually if they can afford the tuition fee, certainly they belong to the middle class and elite .... and some certainly did buy their

certificate.

Please tell us what the tuition fees are for Chula, and how much of that can be covered by student loans

(hint-- tuition fees are low and student loans are available that will cover everything including living expenses for Thai students ---- so Epic fail. Additionally the International programs are more expensive and may not be covered in full by the loans available.)

Thai public universities simply are not expensive for Thai students that can gain admittance. Unis like RU can be paid for on the wages earned at a 7-11.

Edited December 8, 201312 yr by jdinasia

In the past students have fought for democracy.

Now they want to fight against it...

Go figure...

Or has it anything to do with the low education of the "educated people"?

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Perhaps they understand the subtleties of the pre-requisites for a democratic political system.

[insert saying about building houses on sand]

Edited December 8, 201312 yr by rwdrwdrwd

I thought these were supposed to be educated people.

actually if they can afford the tuition fee, certainly they belong to the middle class and elite .... and some certainly did buy their

certificate.

Please tell us what the tuition fees are for Chula, and how much of that can be covered by student loans

Well i see you coming...

In all these years i have spent in Thailand i did make a lot of friends with student from Thammasat, only one from Chula, and few dozens from the private university abac assumption, utcc,... Its night and day, between these two groups!

People who study at Thammasat or Chula are usually, "la creme de la creme", these people are really smart, litterated, hard worker student.

I have more than 5 friends from Thammasat when i do talk with them i am completely stunned.

Most of these student do usually get free tuition.

My friend Khun J. actually student in the last year at Thammasat, do work part-time for free for thai novel magazine.

My friend Khun C. ex-student, did read hundreds of book, do know all the western literature.

My friend Khun A. actually student doing a Phd in politics

....... etc

Well i never heard of one of them showing any support for abhisit/suthep... i did have passionate and interesting discussion about politics with them...

On the others hand, the student at the private and expensive student... well what a mess. Some get there because of the money otherwise...

My friend Khun F., a good friend, rich kid, student at UTCC, spend most his time on facebook and do love yellow shirt.

My friend Khun K, rich kid, student at UTCC on economics , just last week, was claiming the normal range for the USD is around 25 baht... and yes do love

yellow shirt

.... etc

Sorry to burst your bubble....

One more word about the loan: my friend Khun Y. poor kid, but smart and willing to learn. Was not lucky to get a free tuition. HE is dirt poor and can NOT get a loan from the bank to go learning. Well i am really hurt for this friend, i will add i am not red shirt and not yellow shirt, but this society need to be burned... completely

Edited December 8, 201312 yr by Bender

In the past students have fought for democracy.

Now they want to fight against it...

Go figure...

Or has it anything to do with the low education of the "educated people"?

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You may wish to do a bit of research on the student involvemrnt in protests in Thailand, historically. But that would require more than a quick shot at a oneliner.

For students to come back out and get involved is a BIG deal here.

Bender ---- go back and read the OP. The students coming out for the rally ARE from Thammasat and Chula etc. Most do NOT get free tuition. They do get student loans that fully offset tuition.

My partner attended BU (Private Uni) and the tuition is still pretty cheap but far more than the government institutions spoken of in the OP. He's one of the top in his field in Thailand (and cba to follow politics)

Your anecdotal mention of knowing people who attended a Uni are just that. (So are mine) But the fact remains that the students accepted into Thammasat or Chula etc ARE academically the top students in the country. Watch the TV/News tmw for the colored shirts. Chula will be in pink, Thammasat in Yellow/red trim, Katesart in Orange etc .... there will be 1000's from each school.

BTW--- none of the students that I know of that are attending "love the yellow shirts" they simply hate this government. They understand the damage done by things like the rice pledging scheme. They hate the corruption of selling Rohingya into slavery, they hate the flood control programs etc proposed by the government. Why? Like you said they are educated at great schools and they learn and talk about things.

Bender ---- go back and read the OP. The students coming out for the rally ARE from Thammasat and Chula etc. Most do NOT get free tuition. They do get student loans that fully offset tuition.

and i did read:

So the interestiong question should be, how many student from Thammasat do support the yellow shirt/ Suthep movement?

Because from the nation its seems that all.... you understand : the nation.

About the loan and tuition fee for Thammasat, it was free for my friend, they are hard worker student... for the others, i really dont know as i did never ask.

My partner attended BU (Private Uni) and the tuition is still pretty cheap but far more than the government institutions spoken of in the OP.

please keep your gay story, out of this topic.

.

.

.

just kidding.

BTW--- none of the students that I know of that are attending "love the yellow shirts" they simply hate this government. They understand the damage done by things like the rice pledging scheme. They hate the corruption of selling Rohingya into slavery, they hate the flood control programs etc proposed by the government. Why? Like you said they are educated at great schools and they learn and talk about things.

"none of the students that I know of that are attending "love the yellow shirts" they simply hate this government."

So how many do you know? and from wich university?

Because i never said the one from private university are smart and educated... just in case of!

More seriously, i do understand that you hate this legitimate elected government, but what alternative do you offer?

What i hear from my friend, Suthep is not the answer... but yours!

I thought these were supposed to be educated people.

So you´r saying that educated people don´t have the right to protest? Mind you this isn´t North Korea.......yet.

Don't they have class?

They do, high-class and middle-class.

In the past students have fought for democracy.

Now they want to fight against it...

Go figure...

Or has it anything to do with the low education of the "educated people"?

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Now they want to fight against it...

No they don´t. They fight against corruption, nepotism and a goverment not following the rules of law.

Edited December 9, 201312 yr by Skywalker69

Bender ---- go back and read the OP. The students coming out for the rally ARE from Thammasat and Chula etc. Most do NOT get free tuition. They do get student loans that fully offset tuition.

My partner attended BU (Private Uni) and the tuition is still pretty cheap but far more than the government institutions spoken of in the OP. He's one of the top in his field in Thailand (and cba to follow politics)

Your anecdotal mention of knowing people who attended a Uni are just that. (So are mine) But the fact remains that the students accepted into Thammasat or Chula etc ARE academically the top students in the country. Watch the TV/News tmw for the colored shirts. Chula will be in pink, Thammasat in Yellow/red trim, Katesart in Orange etc .... there will be 1000's from each school.

BTW--- none of the students that I know of that are attending "love the yellow shirts" they simply hate this government. They understand the damage done by things like the rice pledging scheme. They hate the corruption of selling Rohingya into slavery, they hate the flood control programs etc proposed by the government. Why? Like you said they are educated at great schools and they learn and talk about things.

So they're protesting for the Rohingya as well now? I'd be interested to hear them articulate their reasoning for this, especially given Abhisit's own poor record on the Rohingya, and refugee rights in general. It sounds like nothing more than shoehorning a completely seperate issue into a list of grievances to me. Just like poor old Dr Weng did in 2010 when he gave one reason for the red shirt protests as 'school kids not being able to afford their uniforms'.* Wonder if they were protesting for Rohingya rights in 2009 or if they're aware that the military (not just police) are involved in trafficking and that, considering they're generally smuggled via islands in the South, it'd be surprising if some Democrat MPs weren't complicit at some level.

I'd be interested to know how much of these students' decision to march is down to their own reasoning and how much is down to conformity to their social class and peer group. Obviously that's a question which we'll never really know the answer to, but I still say their main motivation is hatred for Thaksin, rather than noble desires to protect human rights etc. That stuff is ex post-facto reasoning, grasping for empirical evidence and arguments to fit your pre-conceived narrative. But I'm not singling these guys out for that. It's the same with the red shirts. They've happened to be on the side of democracy at times, rather than necessarily being committed to democracy as a guiding principle. Of course, I'd also claim that there are people in both sides - and those who refuse to take a side, of course - who would forefront universal principles. But they're a minority.

Let's also take a second to note that there are some students who don't agree with closing universities and joining the protests:

'The Rector of Thammasat University (TU) has been condemned by a group of TU lecturers who claim his order to close down the university for 3 days was unreasonable. The order was said to show support for the anti-government group who had called for a strike by the public sector to cripple the government.

The group of lecturers, composed of members of the Nitirat (Enlightened Jurists) group, anthropologist Yukti Mukdawijitra and political scientist Prajak Kongkirati, said in a public lecture on Tuesday that the decision of Rector Somkid Lertpaitoon was made without any democratic consultation within the community and was believed to be motivated by a political agenda.

The public lecture was held in defiance of the shutdown order at the University’s Rangsit campus in central Pathum Thani Province. About a hundred of students attended the ‘lecture’.

In the evening a group of about 40 students, led by the League of Liberal Thammasat for Democracy, organized a “no-confidence motion debate” against their Rector at the Rangsit campus.'

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3779

*And whilst one reason - at a deeper level - for the red shirt protests & indeed the protests now is no doubt economic injustice, economic equality was never an explicit red shirt goal (although a minority of left-leaning protesters have pushed for it - actually some people in the PAD have discussed this too).

Edited December 9, 201312 yr by Emptyset

I will refer back to this post when parents of "innocent" and "unarmed" dead students come crying that their kids died.

And when Yingluck is charged with murder? As AW and ST have allready been!

Bender ---- go back and read the OP. The students coming out for the rally ARE from Thammasat and Chula etc. Most do NOT get free tuition. They do get student loans that fully offset tuition.

My partner attended BU (Private Uni) and the tuition is still pretty cheap but far more than the government institutions spoken of in the OP. He's one of the top in his field in Thailand (and cba to follow politics)

Your anecdotal mention of knowing people who attended a Uni are just that. (So are mine) But the fact remains that the students accepted into Thammasat or Chula etc ARE academically the top students in the country. Watch the TV/News tmw for the colored shirts. Chula will be in pink, Thammasat in Yellow/red trim, Katesart in Orange etc .... there will be 1000's from each school.

BTW--- none of the students that I know of that are attending "love the yellow shirts" they simply hate this government. They understand the damage done by things like the rice pledging scheme. They hate the corruption of selling Rohingya into slavery, they hate the flood control programs etc proposed by the government. Why? Like you said they are educated at great schools and they learn and talk about things.

So they're protesting for the Rohingya as well now? I'd be interested to hear them articulate their reasoning for this, especially given Abhisit's own poor record on the Rohingya, and refugee rights in general. It sounds like nothing more than shoehorning a completely seperate issue into a list of grievances to me. Just like poor old Dr Weng did in 2010 when he gave one reason for the red shirt protests as 'school kids not being able to afford their uniforms'.* Wonder if they were protesting for Rohingya rights in 2009 or if they're aware that the military (not just police) are involved in trafficking and considering they're generally smuggled via islands in the South, it'd be surprising if some Democrat MPs weren't complicit at some level.

I'd be interested to know how much of these students' decision to march is down to their own reasoning and how much is down to conformity to their social class and peer group. Obviously that's a question which we'll never really know the answer to, but I still say their main motivation is hatred for Thaksin, rather than noble desires to protect human rights etc. That stuff is ex post-facto reasoning, grasping for empirical evidence and arguments to fit your pre-conceived narrative. But I'm not singling these guys out for that. It's the same with the red shirts. They've happened to be on the side of democracy at times, rather than necessarily being committed to democracy as a guiding principle. Of course, I'd also claim that there are people in both sides - and those who refuse to take a side, of course - who would forefront universal principles. But they're a minority.

Let's also take a second to note that there are some students who don't agree with closing universities and joining the protests:

'The Rector of Thammasat University (TU) has been condemned by a group of TU lecturers who claim his order to close down the university for 3 days was unreasonable. The order was said to show support for the anti-government group who had called for a strike by the public sector to cripple the government.

The group of lecturers, composed of members of the Nitirat (Enlightened Jurists) group, anthropologist Yukti Mukdawijitra and political scientist Prajak Kongkirati, said in a public lecture on Tuesday that the decision of Rector Somkid Lertpaitoon was made without any democratic consultation within the community and was believed to be motivated by a political agenda.

The public lecture was held in defiance of the shutdown order at the University’s Rangsit campus in central Pathum Thani Province. About a hundred of students attended the ‘lecture’.

In the evening a group of about 40 students, led by the League of Liberal Thammasat for Democracy, organized a “no-confidence motion debate” against their Rector at the Rangsit campus.'

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/3779

*And whilst one reason - at a deeper level - for the red shirt protests & indeed the protests now is no doubt economic injustice, economic equality was never an explicit red shirt goal (although a minority of left-leaning protesters have pushed for it - actually some people in the PAD have discussed this too).

"In the evening a group of about 40 students, led by the League of Liberal Thammasat for Democracy, organized a “no-confidence motion debate” against their Rector at the Rangsit campus."

As students should.

As far as the Rohingya are concerned, it's going to take a long time for Thailand to lose its nationalistic and hierarchical tendencies and embrace the concept of basic human rights: so for now we're their voice. However; student protests for or against a government are a good place to start this education. People from different sides can and do work together here when it's in their best interests. Consider the success of the fairly recent protest march against the Mae Wong dam. I couldn't of imagined that ten years ago. It's going to take a very long time.