Is the PDRC about to blow its undeniable support?: Thai politics

[newcomer71]

Don't you think it's better than having any of the

"Shinawatra" scums? they've taken over excessively

they've put their hands into anything n everything...it's just

simple deduction! At least Suthep dared voice

n stand up at last someone did. Where else you

others nag n nag n gossip n do nothing no wonder

the situation is what it is today! Excuse the

the saying "all fart but no shit!!!"

So wake up guys, be thankful for a step at a time!

A dictator is never better. Listen...

He propose to put their man and not let people choose. A restricted council that will not need votes to take decisions...

Are you guys all blind???

[punisher]

Perhaps drunk with what they believe is power. However, the turnout for the major protest was quite poor. The Nation seems to want to talk-up the numbers. After weeks of planning, 100,000 people is not huge in a city of more than 8,000,000 ( and many of the supporters came from other parts of the country). PDRC is completely out of touch with the sensible majority of the Thai population; they do not want an unelected committee running the country but WOULD like these issues resolved through dialogue and elections.

The current government has bent over backwards to facilitate dialogue, to avoid violence, to keep the economy functioning. Sadly a small group of fanatics and despots seem determined to engage in brinkmanship and push Thailand to the edge. Every Thai I speak with about the situation, expresses extreme frustration that certain groups are pushing PDRC proposals as consensus rather than what they represent on truth: a full-frontal assault on democracy. MDM Shinawatra must be allowed to rule as caretaker until the election on Feb 2. If that does not happen, Thailand will have given in to mob rule and have taken a giant step backwards in the eyes of the international community

I would be interested to know which group of Thais you are talking to. In my office department (Bangkok) most, if not all, supported the demonstration against the amnesty bill. Yes, they are now frustrated with Suthep to varying degrees as they do not know when it will end and do not trust him. But they are all very clear that Thaksin needs to be removed from the picture and barred from being involved in politics permanently if we are to see an end to the divide. For this last reason, despite their frustration and lack of trust in Thep, they do not want elections in February. They first want the ground work putting in place to prevent parliamentary dictatorship and then elections. If this means bearing with Thep for the time being then so be it.

"... they do not want elections ..."

Thank you. I have nothing to add.

Ooh cherry picking. Aren't you clever ? I would suggest you read to the end of the paragraph. I believe it includes the words ..in February..........and then elections."

How about the democratic party starts working and try to convince the majority of thais to vote for them at next election?Point is they can't or don't want come up with a program to make a majority vote for them.They have the backing of army,untouchables and elite,this makes them lazy and they think they don't need a program.

[indyuk]

I think their imagined support is simply another take, a reversal, on 'you're either for us, or against us', a classic in flawed logic.

Then there are the many thousands that showed simply because of "The Event" nature of the protests. Facebook is awash in selfies from the event.

I am curious as to how you can grant legitimacy to the reds who protested in the streets and deny it to Sutheps group. I don't think Suthep is anybodys ideal leader, but you can't deny that he led the largest protest this country has ever seen. Those people didn't turn out because of Suthep, they came because a corrupt government tried to ram through an amnesty bill to benefit an even more corrupt individual. Surely there must be some accountability for that.

OK Ramrod I hear you but can't agree. First the Red Shirts protest was to win a fairer Democratic government than Thailand had.at the time. Whereas Suthep's protest is for his own ends and the abandonment of Democracy, which would be a disaster in terms of Thailand's legitimacy in the international community. Suthep is coups 'ing as a potential dictator leading a people's committee chosen by him and and the people that are financing him.

It also important to point out that the present government is not beholden to the Red Shirts. The Red Shirts are made up of numerous independent groups. Some 100 or so red shirts were imprisoned without trial. Yingluck refused to press for their release saying that they are accused of crimes and must face the consequences.

​However the PTP are in a coalition government which includes the United Front Against Dictatorship which is one red shirt factions and which incorporated itself as a political party. The rest of the red shirt factions are not involved in government and probably never will be.

At this time there is no evidence that the Yingluck government is corrupt.

​For my part I hope that the next government is democratically elected which ever party it is. That will be fine for me because I don't relish the thought of twenty years in Thailand ending in seeing the Thai people blighted by a dictator.

[GarryP]

How about the democratic party starts working and try to convince the majority of thais to vote for them at next election?Point is they can't or don't want come up with a program to make a majority vote for them.They have the backing of army,untouchables and elite,this makes them lazy and they think they don't need a program.

I don't disagree with you. They have to do something. I do not feel sorry for them in the slightest. Their lack of popularity is to a great extent (totally? doubtful) their own fault so they should stop crying, get their finger out and try to do something to appeal to the masses (and not just pay lip service) ready for the next election. The only problems they may face is when on the campaign trail in currently red areas in order to get their message out. In a lot of cases they get run out of town/village (so much for democratic reds). Perhaps, if the police did their job this would become a thing of the past too.

At the same time, something needs to be done to prevent a repetition of parliament running roughshod over popular opinion. And, when told by recognized think tanks, organizations, monetary groups, etc. (both local and international), and a large number of the Thai public that a particular policy is unviable, does not serve its purpose, and will cause serious fiscal damage to the country, (while lining the pockets of the unintended), parliament should not thumb its collective nose at everyone. But bloody well do something to rectify the situation.

Personally, I think the divide will remain in place so long as Thaksin is in the picture. He is the polarizing factor that needs to be negated.

[chuang]

Perhaps drunk with what they believe is power. However, the turnout for the major protest was quite poor. The Nation seems to want to talk-up the numbers. After weeks of planning, 100,000 people is not huge in a city of more than 8,000,000 ( and many of the supporters came from other parts of the country). PDRC is completely out of touch with the sensible majority of the Thai population; they do not want an unelected committee running the country but WOULD like these issues resolved through dialogue and elections.

The current government has bent over backwards to facilitate dialogue, to avoid violence, to keep the economy functioning. Sadly a small group of fanatics and despots seem determined to engage in brinkmanship and push Thailand to the edge. Every Thai I speak with about the situation, expresses extreme frustration that certain groups are pushing PDRC proposals as consensus rather than what they represent on truth: a full-frontal assault on democracy. MDM Shinawatra must be allowed to rule as caretaker until the election on Feb 2. If that does not happen, Thailand will have given in to mob rule and have taken a giant step backwards in the eyes of the international community

I would be interested to know which group of Thais you are talking to. In my office department (Bangkok) most, if not all, supported the demonstration against the amnesty bill. Yes, they are now frustrated with Suthep to varying degrees as they do not know when it will end and do not trust him. But they are all very clear that Thaksin needs to be removed from the picture and barred from being involved in politics permanently if we are to see an end to the divide. For this last reason, despite their frustration and lack of trust in Thep, they do not want elections in February. They first want the ground work putting in place to prevent parliamentary dictatorship and then elections. If this means bearing with Thep for the time being then so be it.

"... they do not want elections ..."

Thank you. I have nothing to add.

[Thai at Heart]

This is the same middle class the supported the last coup.

They don't understand who or what they are supporting.

Thaksin ork bpai. Yippeee

[trigger571]

Perhaps drunk with what they believe is power. However, the turnout for the major protest was quite poor. The Nation seems to want to talk-up the numbers. After weeks of planning, 100,000 people is not huge in a city of more than 8,000,000 ( and many of the supporters came from other parts of the country). PDRC is completely out of touch with the sensible majority of the Thai population; they do not want an unelected committee running the country but WOULD like these issues resolved through dialogue and elections.

The current government has bent over backwards to facilitate dialogue, to avoid violence, to keep the economy functioning. Sadly a small group of fanatics and despots seem determined to engage in brinkmanship and push Thailand to the edge. Every Thai I speak with about the situation, expresses extreme frustration that certain groups are pushing PDRC proposals as consensus rather than what they represent on truth: a full-frontal assault on democracy. MDM Shinawatra must be allowed to rule as caretaker until the election on Feb 2. If that does not happen, Thailand will have given in to mob rule and have taken a giant step backwards in the eyes of the international community

You conveniently fail to say who started this brinkmanship and not only on one front. Sad to say you are biased and delusional, very much like your hero overseas. Thai politics needs a comprehensive shake up and before any election, otherwise we are stuck with the same corrupt system and then the same corrupt politicians. This is what Suthep, in his rather ham fisted way, is trying to prevent. There also needs to be comprehensive checks and balances installed with every Government Department liable to audits, not only of their fiscal dealings, but their performance as well. This way, the many inefficient beurocrats can been weeded out when they fail to perform or are found fiddling the books.

So in your opinion in order to "resolve" this it is OK to remove a legitimately elected government and install a 'quasi' dictatorship? How about following what other countries do? Let a government run it's term and go for elections. In the meantime, the opposition can draft up policies to actually win an election freely and fairly - and please spare the banter of vote buying. A government which care's for its people by enabling low interest loans, lifting it's people from poverty, giving some form of social welfare (which still lags behind many western countries may I add) and trying to create social equality is doing it's job and deserves to be elected. This is not vote buying.

In the west, we are used to governments promising just these things - more jobs, les social injustice, better health care services, reforms etc.. How does Thailand differ from the west? If the Dem's are so sure they should be in power, then prove it through the polls and if (when) they loose, then they should work hard on proper people policies from opposition in parliament, rather than from the streets. There is a reason, they have not won an election in 2 decades and it has nothing to do with corruption or vote buying.

Oh and for the record, I have no doubt that the Shin's et al have had a hand in corruption in some way or another but I have no doubt that the opposition is just as bad and are simply power hungry. Rooting out corruption does not come from installing another government. It comes from a democratic process whereby an elected parliament AND opposition vote for proper legislative measures and then make sure they are enforced together with proper education.

[trigger571]

The amnesty may have been 'withdrawn' for now but it is not dead. And whilst Yingluck has said she won't try and bring it back, just wait till day 180, at 3am it WILL be rammed through if PT are still in power. Mark my words....The Shin's have had a good run and become filthy stinking rich at the expense of the country. Enough already. Bugger off !

You`re right and if not careful she will bring this country into a civil war.

The problem is that the Shinawatra family will always get the majority vote, so in their case being a democracy is very convenient for them, and then we have the opposition who stand for most of the South and the Thai business elite who will always be the minority, so have little chance of getting into power during Government elections.

And this is the political dilemma that Thailand has been facing since Thaksin Shinawatra was voted into power and after he was ousted that has virtually split the country into two.

I have no ideas how to rectify this situation and I cannot see any easy solutions except that all parties concerned must try and agree to some compromise rather than a winner takes all philosophy, which is prevailing at this particular time. All parties have to sit down at the negotiating table, talk and come to some mutual agreements, this is how a proper democracy is run and the views of all the population must be taken into account.

I truly cannot understand why so many people say that it is impossible for the dems to win an election. In any country governments popularity comes and goes. The people will be loyal to the party which takes care of it. The only reasons the Shin's are still so popular are three:

1) They were/ are the only party who ever gave a hoot about the rural poor and therefore won their hearts. Of course they would win the election.

2) The Democrats in opposition were too busy criticising the Shin's government and came up with no tangable proposals how they would lift the poor further.

3) The Shin's legitamately elected governments were on several occassions ousted from power be it coupe, court or protests managing to only complete one term.

Most likely, had the Shin's completed their second term in office and the Dem's been a real opposition, then today the Shin's would be a thing of the past and the Dem's might have won an election

[Toscano]

I think a referendum should be held before a general election , to determine what sort of government the Thai people want , Whether they want a Thai Peoples Council appointed government or a democratically elected government . As I see it this would leave no room for the democrat Party to botcott the election and to declare the result void . If there had been 200,000 people demonstrating in Bangkok , that is not a sufficiently representative number of the overall voting population in Thailand .

Whatever type of government or political party , corruption reigns supreme .

[TPI]

Perhaps drunk with what they believe is power. However, the turnout for the major protest was quite poor. The Nation seems to want to talk-up the numbers. After weeks of planning, 100,000 people is not huge in a city of more than 8,000,000 ( and many of the supporters came from other parts of the country). PDRC is completely out of touch with the sensible majority of the Thai population; they do not want an unelected committee running the country but WOULD like these issues resolved through dialogue and elections.

The current government has bent over backwards to facilitate dialogue, to avoid violence, to keep the economy functioning. Sadly a small group of fanatics and despots seem determined to engage in brinkmanship and push Thailand to the edge. Every Thai I speak with about the situation, expresses extreme frustration that certain groups are pushing PDRC proposals as consensus rather than what they represent on truth: a full-frontal assault on democracy. MDM Shinawatra must be allowed to rule as caretaker until the election on Feb 2. If that does not happen, Thailand will have given in to mob rule and have taken a giant step backwards in the eyes of the international community

You conveniently fail to say who started this brinkmanship and not only on one front. Sad to say you are biased and delusional, very much like your hero overseas. Thai politics needs a comprehensive shake up and before any election, otherwise we are stuck with the same corrupt system and then the same corrupt politicians. This is what Suthep, in his rather ham fisted way, is trying to prevent. There also needs to be comprehensive checks and balances installed with every Government Department liable to audits, not only of their fiscal dealings, but their performance as well. This way, the many inefficient beurocrats can been weeded out when they fail to perform or are found fiddling the books.

Hear hear! Well said that man!

[Ulic]

If only they had chosen a leader without the baggage of corruption that Suthep has, and did not push for the end of democracy.

Suthep is a megalomaniac equal to Thaksin. As leader of Thailand I would not see it as a significant change and certainly not

a move forward.

[Siripon]

The problem for the Democrats now is this-

If they run in the upcoming election, it will alienate many of those who support Suthep and believe in reforming the system before having an election. It will split the Democrats' vote.

If they don't run, they will be accused of avoiding the democratic system- sore losers in a nutshell.

The problem for Pheua Thai is that they are owned 100% by Thaksin, and if Yingluck has had enough, who to choose instead?

She's not fresh and sweet like the last election, her incompetence and lies have been mercilessly exposed.

But who else????????

[hawker9000]

I think their imagined support is simply another take, a reversal, on 'you're either for us, or against us', a classic in flawed logic.

Then there are the many thousands that showed simply because of "The Event" nature of the protests. Facebook is awash in selfies from the event.

I am curious as to how you can grant legitimacy to the reds who protested in the streets and deny it to Sutheps group. I don't think Suthep is anybodys ideal leader, but you can't deny that he led the largest protest this country has ever seen. Those people didn't turn out because of Suthep, they came because a corrupt government tried to ram through an amnesty bill to benefit an even more corrupt individual. Surely there must be some accountability for that.

I certainly agree that the reasons for the protest were the ill-considered and -conceived Amnesty Bill and that this was a cause worthy of protest. However, they've achieved their goal, the Amnesty Bill has been withdrawn and the Government has been dissolved in favour of elections.

WHY can't you get that the amnesty bill has been "withdrawn" but is NOT dead IF the current government remains for another, what, 140 days? Why do so many protester critics act so obtuse about this? The protesters undoubtedly recognize as well that re-electing the PTP will without a doubt simply resurrect this issue, along with all the other shenanigans for which they've been responsible, including the abuse of majority status to further tinker with the constitution. The PTP's lost legitimacy won't magically return with their re-election, and the protesters are demanding a better democracy "framework" than 4 wolves & a sheep deciding the dinner menu... Edited December 12, 2013 by hawker9000

[newcomer71]

I think their imagined support is simply another take, a reversal, on 'you're either for us, or against us', a classic in flawed logic.

Then there are the many thousands that showed simply because of "The Event" nature of the protests. Facebook is awash in selfies from the event.

I am curious as to how you can grant legitimacy to the reds who protested in the streets and deny it to Sutheps group. I don't think Suthep is anybodys ideal leader, but you can't deny that he led the largest protest this country has ever seen. Those people didn't turn out because of Suthep, they came because a corrupt government tried to ram through an amnesty bill to benefit an even more corrupt individual. Surely there must be some accountability for that.

I certainly agree that the reasons for the protest were the ill-considered and -conceived Amnesty Bill and that this was a cause worthy of protest. However, they've achieved their goal, the Amnesty Bill has been withdrawn and the Government has been dissolved in favour of elections.

WHY can't you get that the amnesty bill has been "withdrawn" but is NOT dead IF the current government remains for another, what, 140 days? Why do so many protester critics act so obtuse about this? The protesters undoubtedly recognize as well that re-electing the PTP will without a doubt simply resurrect this issue, along with all the other shenanigans for which they've been responsible, including the abuse of majority status to further tinker with the constitution. The PTP's lost legitimacy won't magically return with their re-election, and the protesters are demanding a better democracy "framework" than 4 wolves & a sheep deciding the dinner menu...

You are aware that Yingluck dissolved House and new elections are to be held on 2nd February right?

Well less that the 140 days...

[hawker9000]

I think their imagined support is simply another take, a reversal, on 'you're either for us, or against us', a classic in flawed logic.

Then there are the many thousands that showed simply because of "The Event" nature of the protests. Facebook is awash in selfies from the event.

I am curious as to how you can grant legitimacy to the reds who protested in the streets and deny it to Sutheps group. I don't think Suthep is anybodys ideal leader, but you can't deny that he led the largest protest this country has ever seen. Those people didn't turn out because of Suthep, they came because a corrupt government tried to ram through an amnesty bill to benefit an even more corrupt individual. Surely there must be some accountability for that.

I certainly agree that the reasons for the protest were the ill-considered and -conceived Amnesty Bill and that this was a cause worthy of protest. However, they've achieved their goal, the Amnesty Bill has been withdrawn and the Government has been dissolved in favour of elections.

WHY can't you get that the amnesty bill has been "withdrawn" but is NOT dead IF the current government remains for another, what, 140 days? Why do so many protester critics act so obtuse about this? The protesters undoubtedly recognize as well that re-electing the PTP will without a doubt simply resurrect this issue, along with all the other shenanigans for which they've been responsible, including the abuse of majority status to further tinker with the constitution. The PTP's lost legitimacy won't magically return with their re-election, and the protesters are demanding a better democracy "framework" than 4 wolves & a sheep deciding the dinner menu...

You are aware that Yingluck dissolved House and new elections are to be held on 2nd February right?

Well less that the 140 days...

You did read what I wrote about re-electing the PTP...

[metisdead]

A post bringing the King into the discussion has been removed, there is to be No DIscussion Of The Monarchy In Political Context, specifically this part:

- Do not discuss succession or speculate on the future of The Monarchy.

[tomacht8]

Interesting opinions.

I'm not afraid that Suthep will build up a Kingdom/ dictatorship or what ever for himself.

He did not have any support for that. He knows that.

He is the man for the rough ton. His goal is to stop the Shin clan.

Coincidentally, that would also mean defacto to stop the corruption in the country now.

So why everybody let him move and shout?

The police could sacked him, the army could sacked him. The courts could sacked him.

In the background the courts are working now.

- Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong gets one-year imprisonment without suspension

- Abhisit due in court over 2010 crackdown (Suthep will follow sure)

- Bt2 trillion loan bill halted, pending court ruling

- NACC to investigate backers of charter change draft (maybe they ban 312 members)

Maybe a great chance to getting the corruption down in Thailand.

Hopefully it all turns now into an clear anti - corruption movement

with concrete suggestions for improvement.

The frame is clear: Peace and unity.

PS:

- It must be prevented in the future, that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

- When public funds are used, then the public has the right to see what the representatives of the people plan to do with the money and how it was used.

Edited December 12, 2013 by tomacht8

[newcomer71]

Interesting opinions.

I'm not afraid that Suthep will build up a Kingdom/ dictatorship or what ever for himself.

He did not have any support for that. He knows that.

He is the man for the rough ton. His goal is to stop the Shin clan.

Coincidentally, that would also mean defacto to stop the corruption in the country now.

So why everybody let him move and shout?

The police could sacked him, the army could sacked him. The courts could sacked him.

In the background the courts are working now.

- Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong gets one-year imprisonment without suspension

- Abhisit due in court over 2010 crackdown (Suthep will follow sure)

- Bt2 trillion loan bill halted, pending court ruling

- NACC to investigate backers of charter change draft (maybe they ban 312 members)

Maybe a great chance to getting the corruption down in Thailand.

Hopefully it all turns now into an clear anti - corruption movement

with concrete suggestions for improvement.

The frame is clear: Peace and unity.

PS:

- It must be prevented in the future, that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

- When public funds are used, then the public has the right to see what the representatives of the people plan to do with the money and how it was used.

I completely disagree with that. Corruption came far before Thaksin, and corruption was running while Abhisit was in charge as well.

So, Suthep, or any Average Joe would not let corruption cease in Thailand. This is sure as birth and death.

About your PS: I guess there is no way to prevent that. Look some cases around the world, even very recent and even our advanced democracies did not prevent that, so sadly.

[TomTao]

I do hope that Suthep is not over stepping the mark too much, he got the amnesty bill taken off the table, he got parliament dissolved, but he has failed to get the backing of the army. It's time to start winding things up and start getting ready for the election. I don't think the government will be silly enough to table another amnesty bill too soon, if ever, the number of protesters from all walks of life and from around the country sent a very loud message to the government. Time to pack it up before public opinion turns around.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[tomacht8]

Interesting opinions.

I'm not afraid that Suthep will build up a Kingdom/ dictatorship or what ever for himself.

He did not have any support for that. He knows that.

He is the man for the rough ton. His goal is to stop the Shin clan.

Coincidentally, that would also mean defacto to stop the corruption in the country now.

So why everybody let him move and shout?

The police could sacked him, the army could sacked him. The courts could sacked him.

In the background the courts are working now.

- Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong gets one-year imprisonment without suspension

- Abhisit due in court over 2010 crackdown (Suthep will follow sure)

- Bt2 trillion loan bill halted, pending court ruling

- NACC to investigate backers of charter change draft (maybe they ban 312 members)

Maybe a great chance to getting the corruption down in Thailand.

Hopefully it all turns now into an clear anti - corruption movement

with concrete suggestions for improvement.

The frame is clear: Peace and unity.

PS:

- It must be prevented in the future, that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

- When public funds are used, then the public has the right to see what the representatives of the people plan to do with the money and how it was used.

I completely disagree with that. Corruption came far before Thaksin, and corruption was running while Abhisit was in charge as well.

So, Suthep, or any Average Joe would not let corruption cease in Thailand. This is sure as birth and death.

About your PS: I guess there is no way to prevent that. Look some cases around the world, even very recent and even our advanced democracies did not prevent that, so sadly.

Sure, agree! Corruption was far before.

But we living today.

Stop corruption now!

The people want it (me included)

[hawker9000]

You might be surprised how much the man-in-the-street can stomach, and how quickly principles cast aside, in order to keep his own particular benefit coming in... He cares much less about things like corruption, national bankruptcy, and the greater good, than he does about his own immediate financial benefit. THIS mindset (by NO means peculiar to Thailand) is what has kept getting PTP elected. 'Not so sure, frankly, that this dysfunctional voting pattern in the past shouldn't have painful consequences now. That great "PTP majority" so many love to talk about, DID make a choice back in 2011...

[JCauto]

I think their imagined support is simply another take, a reversal, on 'you're either for us, or against us', a classic in flawed logic.

Then there are the many thousands that showed simply because of "The Event" nature of the protests. Facebook is awash in selfies from the event.

I am curious as to how you can grant legitimacy to the reds who protested in the streets and deny it to Sutheps group. I don't think Suthep is anybodys ideal leader, but you can't deny that he led the largest protest this country has ever seen. Those people didn't turn out because of Suthep, they came because a corrupt government tried to ram through an amnesty bill to benefit an even more corrupt individual. Surely there must be some accountability for that.

I certainly agree that the reasons for the protest were the ill-considered and -conceived Amnesty Bill and that this was a cause worthy of protest. However, they've achieved their goal, the Amnesty Bill has been withdrawn and the Government has been dissolved in favour of elections.

WHY can't you get that the amnesty bill has been "withdrawn" but is NOT dead IF the current government remains for another, what, 140 days? Why do so many protester critics act so obtuse about this? The protesters undoubtedly recognize as well that re-electing the PTP will without a doubt simply resurrect this issue, along with all the other shenanigans for which they've been responsible, including the abuse of majority status to further tinker with the constitution. The PTP's lost legitimacy won't magically return with their re-election, and the protesters are demanding a better democracy "framework" than 4 wolves & a sheep deciding the dinner menu...

Thanks for responding.

Of course they're not going to re-submit the Amnesty Bill, that's dead in the water. If they don't realize that, then they're pretty dumb, and while you can accuse Thaksin et al of many things, being stupid is not one of them. It took them two years to get to the point where they thought they could bring the Amnesty Bill forward and win, and it failed. You really think they'll have another go right after getting elected so they can get kicked out again? They're very likely to lose some electoral support as a result of that miscalculation, and being professional politicians they will certainly get the message that this is a no go.

And if the goal of the protesters is to create a better democracy framework, then how on earth is this to be done when you go completely against the constitution and existing laws that govern the country and ignore the vote of what is more than half the population? You really think that Suthep's proposal will convince anyone outside of his core supporters when it doesn't even have any details of how it's going to be implemented and eliminates the participation of the people who were voted in?

You accept that the PTP is likely to be voted in if an election is held, as do practically every observer on the forum regardless of which side they're on. So why is nobody on the protesting side looking at ways to come to a reasonable compromise and involve the people that even they accept will win an election to come up with a way to solve the problem? Yingluck invited the opposition to join in discussions and was summarily rejected and given an ultimatum to get out of the country after giving concessions to the opposition. This is how you achieve these goals? This is participatory? This is demonstrating a will to come together for the good of the country? Really?

[englishoak]

I am curious as to how you can grant legitimacy to the reds who protested in the streets and deny it to Sutheps group. I don't think Suthep is anybodys ideal leader, but you can't deny that he led the largest protest this country has ever seen. Those people didn't turn out because of Suthep, they came because a corrupt government tried to ram through an amnesty bill to benefit an even more corrupt individual. Surely there must be some accountability for that.

I certainly agree that the reasons for the protest were the ill-considered and -conceived Amnesty Bill and that this was a cause worthy of protest. However, they've achieved their goal, the Amnesty Bill has been withdrawn and the Government has been dissolved in favour of elections.

WHY can't you get that the amnesty bill has been "withdrawn" but is NOT dead IF the current government remains for another, what, 140 days? Why do so many protester critics act so obtuse about this? The protesters undoubtedly recognize as well that re-electing the PTP will without a doubt simply resurrect this issue, along with all the other shenanigans for which they've been responsible, including the abuse of majority status to further tinker with the constitution. The PTP's lost legitimacy won't magically return with their re-election, and the protesters are demanding a better democracy "framework" than 4 wolves & a sheep deciding the dinner menu...

Thanks for responding.

Of course they're not going to re-submit the Amnesty Bill, that's dead in the water. If they don't realize that, then they're pretty dumb, and while you can accuse Thaksin et al of many things, being stupid is not one of them. It took them two years to get to the point where they thought they could bring the Amnesty Bill forward and win, and it failed. You really think they'll have another go right after getting elected so they can get kicked out again? They're very likely to lose some electoral support as a result of that miscalculation, and being professional politicians they will certainly get the message that this is a no go.

And if the goal of the protesters is to create a better democracy framework, then how on earth is this to be done when you go completely against the constitution and existing laws that govern the country and ignore the vote of what is more than half the population? You really think that Suthep's proposal will convince anyone outside of his core supporters when it doesn't even have any details of how it's going to be implemented and eliminates the participation of the people who were voted in?

You accept that the PTP is likely to be voted in if an election is held, as do practically every observer on the forum regardless of which side they're on. So why is nobody on the protesting side looking at ways to come to a reasonable compromise and involve the people that even they accept will win an election to come up with a way to solve the problem? Yingluck invited the opposition to join in discussions and was summarily rejected and given an ultimatum to get out of the country after giving concessions to the opposition. This is how you achieve these goals? This is participatory? This is demonstrating a will to come together for the good of the country? Really?

Very good points but unfortunately is pretty easy to answer if you take away being reasonable.

1st You ignore the constitution and have no interest in what comes next just what comes now. Just say whatever to achieve gaining the control.

2nd You dont give time for things to be looked at properly, whilst the people are shouting they arnt doing anything else, like examining what the details are or lack of them, you ride it as hard and as fast as possible attempting to sweep away the election process again to gain control

3rd you keep saying the same things over and over without giving any real answers, you cite the hated names over and over repeat and repeat all the time making claims of a better tomorrow with NO details and no names... trust me im a doctor etc.

There is no point in sitting down and exploring the middle ground if there is no real interest in making change in a democratic and inclusive way... it is purely exclusive what Suthep and co are spouting with no names no examples and no choice..

Take your pick of history its littered with example like this, none of which end well for the people.

Edited December 12, 2013 by metisdead
30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

[jpeg]

Surely the Thai people can see that the leaders of PDRC have become drunk with power? The PDRC have changed from what they originally protesting about so the question is How can these people be trusted to run this Country. .... PS ; No Thai person should be forced to leave their own Country let alone a complete family.

Mawkish bullshit. Imagine Thailand without the Shinawatras. Yay.

Edited December 12, 2013 by jpeg

[jpeg]

You might be surprised how much the man-in-the-street can stomach, and how quickly principles cast aside, in order to keep his own particular benefit coming in... He cares much less about things like corruption, national bankruptcy, and the greater good, than he does about his own immediate financial benefit. THIS mindset (by NO means peculiar to Thailand) is what has kept getting PTP elected. 'Not so sure, frankly, that this dysfunctional voting pattern in the past shouldn't have painful consequences now. That great "PTP majority" so many love to talk about, DID make a choice back in 2011...

No, but extraordinarily pertinent to countries with a massive disparity in their wealth. Duh.

[newcomer71]

Interesting opinions.

I'm not afraid that Suthep will build up a Kingdom/ dictatorship or what ever for himself.

He did not have any support for that. He knows that.

He is the man for the rough ton. His goal is to stop the Shin clan.

Coincidentally, that would also mean defacto to stop the corruption in the country now.

So why everybody let him move and shout?

The police could sacked him, the army could sacked him. The courts could sacked him.

In the background the courts are working now.

- Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong gets one-year imprisonment without suspension

- Abhisit due in court over 2010 crackdown (Suthep will follow sure)

- Bt2 trillion loan bill halted, pending court ruling

- NACC to investigate backers of charter change draft (maybe they ban 312 members)

Maybe a great chance to getting the corruption down in Thailand.

Hopefully it all turns now into an clear anti - corruption movement

with concrete suggestions for improvement.

The frame is clear: Peace and unity.

PS:

- It must be prevented in the future, that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

- When public funds are used, then the public has the right to see what the representatives of the people plan to do with the money and how it was used.

I completely disagree with that. Corruption came far before Thaksin, and corruption was running while Abhisit was in charge as well.

So, Suthep, or any Average Joe would not let corruption cease in Thailand. This is sure as birth and death.

About your PS: I guess there is no way to prevent that. Look some cases around the world, even very recent and even our advanced democracies did not prevent that, so sadly.

Sure, agree! Corruption was far before.

But we living today.

Stop corruption now!

The people want it (me included)

I want it too, my friend. But Suthep is not the one who will make defacto disappear corruption in this country.

[hawker9000]

I think their imagined support is simply another take, a reversal, on 'you're either for us, or against us', a classic in flawed logic.

Then there are the many thousands that showed simply because of "The Event" nature of the protests. Facebook is awash in selfies from the event.

I am curious as to how you can grant legitimacy to the reds who protested in the streets and deny it to Sutheps group. I don't think Suthep is anybodys ideal leader, but you can't deny that he led the largest protest this country has ever seen. Those people didn't turn out because of Suthep, they came because a corrupt government tried to ram through an amnesty bill to benefit an even more corrupt individual. Surely there must be some accountability for that.

I certainly agree that the reasons for the protest were the ill-considered and -conceived Amnesty Bill and that this was a cause worthy of protest. However, they've achieved their goal, the Amnesty Bill has been withdrawn and the Government has been dissolved in favour of elections.

WHY can't you get that the amnesty bill has been "withdrawn" but is NOT dead IF the current government remains for another, what, 140 days? Why do so many protester critics act so obtuse about this? The protesters undoubtedly recognize as well that re-electing the PTP will without a doubt simply resurrect this issue, along with all the other shenanigans for which they've been responsible, including the abuse of majority status to further tinker with the constitution. The PTP's lost legitimacy won't magically return with their re-election, and the protesters are demanding a better democracy "framework" than 4 wolves & a sheep deciding the dinner menu...

Thanks for responding.

Of course they're not going to re-submit the Amnesty Bill, that's dead in the water. If they don't realize that, then they're pretty dumb, and while you can accuse Thaksin et al of many things, being stupid is not one of them. It took them two years to get to the point where they thought they could bring the Amnesty Bill forward and win, and it failed. You really think they'll have another go right after getting elected so they can get kicked out again? They're very likely to lose some electoral support as a result of that miscalculation, and being professional politicians they will certainly get the message that this is a no go.

And if the goal of the protesters is to create a better democracy framework, then how on earth is this to be done when you go completely against the constitution and existing laws that govern the country and ignore the vote of what is more than half the population? You really think that Suthep's proposal will convince anyone outside of his core supporters when it doesn't even have any details of how it's going to be implemented and eliminates the participation of the people who were voted in?

You accept that the PTP is likely to be voted in if an election is held, as do practically every observer on the forum regardless of which side they're on. So why is nobody on the protesting side looking at ways to come to a reasonable compromise and involve the people that even they accept will win an election to come up with a way to solve the problem? Yingluck invited the opposition to join in discussions and was summarily rejected and given an ultimatum to get out of the country after giving concessions to the opposition. This is how you achieve these goals? This is participatory? This is demonstrating a will to come together for the good of the country? Really?

No, this is how you deal with someone who has dealt with YOU using deceipt, intimidation and heavy-handedness, demonstrating that they cannot be trusted and owe their allegiance to a puppetmaster working from abroad, unable to even show his own face even as business is being done in his, and only his, best interests. In other words, this is how you deal with someone who has no credibility, and an obvious agenda that is not in the national interest.

[JCauto]

Interesting opinions.

I'm not afraid that Suthep will build up a Kingdom/ dictatorship or what ever for himself.

He did not have any support for that. He knows that.

He is the man for the rough ton. His goal is to stop the Shin clan.

Coincidentally, that would also mean defacto to stop the corruption in the country now.

So why everybody let him move and shout?

The police could sacked him, the army could sacked him. The courts could sacked him.

In the background the courts are working now.

- Pheu Thai spokesman Prompong gets one-year imprisonment without suspension

- Abhisit due in court over 2010 crackdown (Suthep will follow sure)

- Bt2 trillion loan bill halted, pending court ruling

- NACC to investigate backers of charter change draft (maybe they ban 312 members)

Maybe a great chance to getting the corruption down in Thailand.

Hopefully it all turns now into an clear anti - corruption movement

with concrete suggestions for improvement.

The frame is clear: Peace and unity.

PS:

- It must be prevented in the future, that a country can be completely plundered by a few unethical people just because they are currently in power.

- When public funds are used, then the public has the right to see what the representatives of the people plan to do with the money and how it was used.

Removing the Shin clan will remove corruption in Thailand? You should put in a when you tell jokes because otherwise people might not get it. In this case, it's probably worthy of a . What? You weren't joking?

You know the great corruption fighter Suthep has quite a lot of experience in this field, right? Just google "Suthep Thaugsuban" and "Sor Por Kor", then do the same with "cooking oil", and with "police station construction". This is your white knight coming to slay the corruption dragon.

[Bpuumike]

" No Thai person should be forced to leave their own Country let alone a complete family."

I agree with you. Having said that, Thai courts have no problem banning and dissolving entire political parties. Given all the evidence that Thaksin runs the party that contains 2 of his sisters, 1 brother in law and at least 1 cousin, it may not be unreasonable to ban the family from politics for 5 years. There is no question that Thaksin is causing a rift in this country, people that no one would have thought would come out and protest in the streets have done so, primarily because of the amnesty bill and also because they are tired of seeing and hearing this buffoon run their country by proxy.

Except he is no buffoon, unfortunately.

[JCauto]

No, this is how you deal with someone who has dealt with YOU using deceipt, intimidation and heavy-handedness, demonstrating that they cannot be trusted and owe their allegiance to a puppetmaster working from abroad, unable to even show his own face even as business is being done in his, and only his, best interests. In other words, this is how you deal with someone who has no credibility, and an obvious agenda that is not in the national interest.

Okay, so two wrongs actually do make a right? And this won't throw the country into the next stage of the cycle, where the Reds come and bring Bangkok and the government to a standstill and the cycle repeats. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Edited December 13, 2013 by JCauto