My experience with teak.

[canuckamuck]

Everyone around us is growing corn, and they are slowly selling off their land to cover the debt from growing corn.

[Openmind111]

Hi guys, I'm reading already a long time in this Forum, this year I registered and this topic made me finally writing here.

I plan too to plant Teak on approx. 8 rai (of course not my property, as we all know, i'm a Farang...), right now I'm quite busy to setup everything, fencing and so on.

Well, what I did before I did anything else, I went to a factory which is allowed to process Teak, there are not so many but actually quite easy to find, if you know who to ask.

Anyway, in the end they gave me a sheet of paper with the actual prices of this year and the minimum price is 1'200 Baht per tree with a GBH (girth/circumference at breast height of 35-40 cm, in which has to be already a 10% deduction for the bark ( so in the end the tree has to be about 39-44 GBH cm including the bark).

The factory wants at best to buy a whole area, probably not so interested in single stems, because pretty much is in the price included: cutting, loading, transport.

All you have to do is having the right stamps and registration and when it's cutting time, the guys from amphoe and the Police has to be there to mark every cut stem.

So, to the OP: 44 cm circumference, that means a Diameter of about 13-14 cm, not too much for a 15 year old Teak tree, I guess? In which area are you located? The Prices may vary probably, this factsheet I got is valid for Nong Khai.

I have a few more question: Did you prune the trees and if, in which year you began? Did you use fertilizer and what kind?

So many more questions but I just realized, it's already a long comment and a bit belated many excuses for the possible mistakes I made, I'm a swiss and therefore english isn't my native language

[wolfmanjack]

There are very strict rules about who you can sell to. Only government certified buyers can buy teak. We had a visit from 2 brokers and negotiated a deal, then it took almost 2 months for the Amphoe to issue the letter and stamp so we could sell and the trees could me moved from the land. The broker got a commission and the buyer took a cut and paid for a crew to set up a small sawmill on my farm. .

The purpose of this post is to inform others. Things are not the way I was lead to believe. Once I understood how things stood, I got out. I just thought others should know the story

Any one with a teak license can buy teak. I bought plenty of it when I had my teak factory. You should have visited a few factories to make the sale instead of contacting brokers.

What you say about getting the local forest department to come out and stamp the logs is true. It takes forever unless you grease the wheels.

[wolfmanjack]

I have a friend who is trying to export his teak trees but has no idea how to go about it.

You can't export trees or lumber. You have to make something out of it. If you really want to export the trees them drill holes in the ends or something similar and list it as knock down furniture.

[kurnell]

I have a friend who is trying to export his teak trees but has no idea how to go about it.

You can't export logs. Teak has to be processed into furniture, handicrafts, etc... to be able to get an export permit

At 15 years the wood did not mature enough to produce good wood, With good soil, at the base of the trees let say you can get a diameter of max. 25 maybe 30 cm, Of this you will barely get 10 cm at the core that is good enough to be worked, the rest is sapwood, prone to insect (and termites) appetite. Of course it can be harvested to be used as shack posts or other temporary use, and you can't expect to get a good price for it.

When you plant teak, you have to bear in mind that it is not for our own profit but for your grand-children's. To get the best of teak wood it can't be cut before it reaches at least 70 years old, before that the heart is not mature/strong enough and does not last as long as older wood. At 80 years old in good environment the heart wood may reach 60-70 cm and this will be fine enough to be worked into furniture or carpentry.

So do think about future generations, plant the trees in a land that is not too closed to the village, register your plantation at amphur and ask you kids to tell their kids to cut their trees, if they wish, in their old age. They'll have a very secure retirement...

Word

[Jotham79]

I have a few minutes and will try to address some of the questions/comments presented.

“The OP has sold 15 year old teak trees for 150 Baht each. (5 US$). I'm speechless...”

How do you think I feel.

“Surely the price is wrong. Please confirm Op.”

Actually my wife said that we only got 100,000 baht, but I did pick up a lot of usable scrap and small trees.

“That's about the price of a 2x4 for a tree”. And “Teletiger points out that a single 3 meter 2x4 is worth 6 of your full trees at final sale. There is something seriously wrong with that”.

Very few of my trees would have produced a "finished" 2x4 of 3 meter length.

“Why does the farmer not learn to cut and season the logs himself? Then, once seasoned, cut them into usable lumber? Perhaps, set up a complete vertical structure and have furniture made onsite, as well?”

He still has to sell it to a licensed buyer and probably would not get much more.

“Earlier this year in my area of Phetchabun a team cut down teak trees from a small plantation. They cut them 6M long and laid the logs by the roadside and sold them for 3000 baht for the smallest ones of 70cm circumference up to 7000 baht for biggest of 120cm. Including papers. They sold out quickly, I think mainly to local mills.”

This had to be a licensed buyer and I doubt the farmer got half (probably much less than half). Someone who wants to build a teak house (very popular at the moment) will buy unprocessed timber from the licensed seller.. Also, if you double the circumference the you multiply the volume by 4. Take a 70 cm tree and go down to 35 cm which is probably higher than my average. So take the 3000 baht and divide by 4 and you get 750 and that is retail. Take that and divide by 2 and you get 350 baht. I probably had quite a few worth that but I had more that were worth practically nothing as far as processing is concerned.

“Do you have pics of the tree's at harvest ?”

Here are a few when they were processing. Trees at this end were much larger than average.

Here is a picture of the trees at 14 years.

Here are some we thinned. Of these most were small but a few were a good size.

Here is a picture of 4 yok that we paid 1,000 baht per yok to partially process. Fully processed ready to use goes for around 3,500 per yok.

And here are a couple that are 18 years old behind my house that were not as crowded and got more water. They are probably 90 cm in circumference.

There is a great variation in size of trees.

“Plant corn, I think there will be a big push in the future for bio fuel and ethanol as is in Brazil...Just keep listening to government speeches and the slow push in that direction.

ETHANOL is the new black gold,, can we say clear gold?”

That’s what I will do.

“Everyone around us is growing corn, and they are slowly selling off their land to cover the debt from growing corn.”

I have about 2 crops a year from corn for the last few years and have never lost money, but I own the land outright. Borrowing to buy land to farm at a profit would be near impossible IMHO.

“So, to the OP: 44 cm circumference, that means a Diameter of about 13-14 cm, not too much for a 15 year old Teak tree, I guess? In which area are you located? The Prices may vary probably, this factsheet I got is valid for Nong Khai. I have a few more question: Did you prune the trees and if, in which year you began? Did you use fertilizer and what kind?

I’m located just outside of Petchabun. From 10 to 15 years ago the dry seasons were drier and I could not water them. They got no fertilizer nor have I ever heard it being recommended. We trimmed branches once a year. I lost almost a rai to a brush fire the second year and they grew back but were always smaller than the others. I would forget the factsheet. That is the price a mill is “predicted to pay” and that would be from a licensed seller after cutting and transport.

I believe it would be easier to sell if I were nearer a rail line as shipping would be easier for the factory. Also, you should get more rain during the dry season. If I were you I would plant 4m x 2 m and thin at 8 years. Plant corn in between the rows the first few years plant at early in the rainy season. I would not do teak if the land is suitable for regular farming. Even then I would recommend growing Neem trees ( Mai Sadaow) as I have done much better with them over the years. PM me for details.

“Any one with a teak license can buy teak. I bought plenty of it when I had my teak factory. You should have visited a few factories to make the sale instead of contacting brokers.”

There Is one factory near here and I did visit it. It is backed by a foreigner, but they only get wood from local buyers. I contacted several and 2 came out to bid and that broker took them to another factory somewhere. I got the feeling the market was a little full. Location obviously plays a part.

“What you say about getting the local forest department to come out and stamp the logs is true. It takes forever unless you grease the wheels.”

The broker greased the wheels….we wouldn’t have known how to do this.

I hope this helps clarify things.

[canuckamuck]

Thanks for all the info, I think mostly what you saw in response was the shock that this is what teak is worth. Please do not be offended at my comments they were not intended that way. It is true the farmers up here are doing very poorly with their corn, but it is mountain land and I am sure their management skills leave a bit to be desired.

I really would like to plant teak, but I am pretty sure now that I won't.

[Jotham79]

I do think there is a time, a place, and a method to raise teak. I'd be happy to help anyone seriously interested.

[teletiger]

This looks more like a 4 year old Euca stand. Maybe with hindsight, the no water, no ferts regime was a mistake. Also the goal with teak trees (same as oak) is to get a straight bole at least 10 metres high with no branches. Which means trimming off all side shoots as they appear.

Thank you Jotham for showing us this. A real eye-opener for me.

Regards.

[Openmind111]

I read in an other topic of Jotham79 that, most responses are just opinions or comments, hardly any experiences, unfortunately that's true...

So, again, has anyone first hand experience of teak tree sales?

I went again to the factory and they told me, resp. my stepmother, in the Prices are included:

- visit and examine the trees you want to sell

- cutting

-loading

-transport

(at least that's what my step mom ensured me:

for the price list, following figures (I found the paper again )

35-40 cm 1'200 THB per tree

45-54 cm 1'500 THB

55-60 cm 3'500 THB not so sure, if it continues here per cube meter or still per tree? I can't read Thai yet

61-69 cm 4'000 THB

70-79 cm 6'000 THB

80-89 cm 7'000 THB .... the list goes until "120 cm UP" with 12'000 THB

I didn't plant yet a single tree but this point comes soon, and it makes me pretty insecure what to think, I read already once an old thread, where someone bought teak for a really low price and not only one tree. And now I hear another story that comes close to a nightmare.

Eucalyptustrees doesn't seem so attractive for me, I cut and sold a few already and because i'm not whole year here for probably the next 4-5 years, cashcrops are out of question.

So maybe anyone has a few tips?

@ Jotham79: how you can commercialize neem trees? and is that also possible in a larger scale?

[Jotham79]

If those prices are for diameter then I would say they are close as my trees were considerably smaller. I have not heard of anyone ever being paid by the tree, they are paid a price in total. Where is this buyer, I expect that prices are higher near railways as it is cheaper to move the lumber. Neem (Mai Sadao) is a beautiful wood, it grows quickly, and there are no regulations so you can grow it, pay for the processing and then sell the lumber. I know of several plots around my area and dozens of fence rows that have been lined. I don't know that you would do any better selling through a broker. PM if and when interested.

[Openmind111]

No, the prices relate to GBH, girth at breastheight. Diameter would be hard to achieve with these numbers, at least within one lifetime.

As I understood, they want to buy the whole plots if possible, but these prices are the underlying figures.

No Railway lines as far as I've seen, maybe at the backside, there's a little industrial complex with 3-4 wood processing factorys, one of them takes Teak, it's located in Region Nong Khai.

Of the neem tree I only heard, they make neem-oil as pest repellent or something similar, for this reason I thought also about having a few later, I never heard that they're farmed for the wood. I research first a bit about that before I disturb you with my questions about that

[Jotham79]

No, the prices relate to GBH, girth at breastheight. Diameter would be hard to achieve with these numbers, at least within one lifetime.

As I understood, they want to buy the whole plots if possible, but these prices are the underlying figures.

No Railway lines as far as I've seen, maybe at the backside, there's a little industrial complex with 3-4 wood processing factorys, one of them takes Teak, it's located in Region Nong Khai.

Of the neem tree I only heard, they make neem-oil as pest repellent or something similar, for this reason I thought also about having a few later, I never heard that they're farmed for the wood. I research first a bit about that before I disturb you with my questions about that

I know about GBH and I saw the numbers you have about 7 years ago. Please let me know when you actually sell a teak tree for those prices, I still have a few. Nong Khai is definitely on a rail line from Bangkok and has a very good wood market and some of the factories you mention are on the road from Udonthani that by passes NK and goes straight up to Friendship bridge.

[DerkMR]

Of the neem tree I only heard, they make neem-oil as pest repellent or something similar, for this reason I thought also about having a few later, I never heard that they're farmed for the wood. I research first a bit about that before I disturb you with my questions about that

Yes, they process the seeds and get neem oil used in a lot of non chemical insect repellents.

After processing the seeds you can also use the remaining rests and dig them into the soil to get the same effect.

For humans the leaves are used as a tea (I didn't try but got it told to be quite bitter) with a lot of said beneficial effects.

Bye,

Derk

[rice555]

Hello All, neem in the picture is what is eaten(between the critters).

rice555

[canuckamuck]

Here is some info on Neem wood http://www.ehow.com/info_8288131_physical-properties-neem-wood.html

[Chao Lao Beach]

A little off subject, would Neem be a good plant to keep small and have a few around to help keep annoying mosquitoes away?

[Jotham79]

A little off subject, would Neem be a good plant to keep small and have a few around to help keep annoying mosquitoes away?

We have them (Neem trees) all around and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

[apache9441]

you can take 15-20 year old teak trees that you've grown, chop them down as near to the ground as you can. Tell the teak mafia Guy to shove it where the Sun don't shine and then build yourself (with the help of the Old Guys in the Village) a beautiful natural 'green wood' teak house on Stilts that you wouldn't swap for a million baht.

The remaining roots will start to shoot within a few weeks, and due to the massive root system underground will probably grow you a teak tree of the same size in about 10 years.

[teletiger]

I always believed that there was only one Universe, this one. Now I know I was wrong. Apache9441 lives in a different one. I wish I lived there.

Regards.

[apache9441]

Regards to you too

[Jotham79]

All the "teak mafia" has to do is make 1 phone call and my wife '(I don't own anything) goes to jail, you really need to have skin in the game to understand the teak market. I did keep and process enough (see photos above) to build such a house (the outside walls) with some neem I have to make beams and supports. This I am keeping for my stepson.

you can take 15-20 year old teak trees that you've grown, chop them down as near to the ground as you can. Tell the teak mafia Guy to shove it where the Sun don't shine and then build yourself (with the help of the Old Guys in the Village) a beautiful natural 'green wood' teak house on Stilts that you wouldn't swap for a million baht.

The remaining roots will start to shoot within a few weeks, and due to the massive root system underground will probably grow you a teak tree of the same size in about 10 years.

[apache9441]

It's just been done in our Village . no one had 'Skin ' in the teak market.

anyway, I'm out of here, back to my parallel Universe.

[David48]

Interesting advertisement ... licensed-teak-farms

[highlander403]

wife says that she has just been offered 50,000 baht for two teak trees.

one of them two of us cant get our arms round them and the other we can just touch arms, there is a third but that has fallen in

the canal about the same size but no offer on it untill it can be recovered.

is this price likely for real or pie in the sky

they said they will sort out licence etc..

scotty

[Jotham79]

wife says that she has just been offered 50,000 baht for two teak trees.

one of them two of us cant get our arms round them and the other we can just touch arms, there is a third but that has fallen in

the canal about the same size but no offer on it untill it can be recovered.

is this price likely for real or pie in the sky

they said they will sort out licence etc..

scotty

Once they get big enough to roll out into vaneer the price skyrocketss, but I would guess the trees are as old as you. Congrats.

[canuckamuck]

wife says that she has just been offered 50,000 baht for two teak trees.

one of them two of us cant get our arms round them and the other we can just touch arms, there is a third but that has fallen in

the canal about the same size but no offer on it untill it can be recovered.

is this price likely for real or pie in the sky

they said they will sort out licence etc..

scotty

From what I have heard about big teak, that price is low. I could be wrong but I heard that once they are three feet in diameter they are worth about 60,000 baht per cubic meter. but this could be at the export end. Of course this could also be BS.

[Canada]

Beautiful old trees. 50,000 baht is not much money. Shame to kill them for money or for anything for that matter.

[highlander403]

Beautiful old trees. 50,000 baht is not much money. Shame to kill them for money or for anything for that matter.

totally agree Canada, but as one fell in the canal two years ago and another this year,

we are told that its only a matter of time before the other two go as well..

scotty

[YayaManos]

What is the current going rate teak 6m x 200mm, in Thai Baht please