Laos a country in decline

[simple1]

Having spent some of my best years in the "nanny state" (OZ) I have to agree with the OP! One of the things that Lao and Oz have in common is "space"! 21 million in Oz, 7 1/2 million ? in Lao. They're both nanny states, have vast differences between the rich and poor, they both make it very difficult to lift oneself up by your bootstraps economically and interlectually by means of prohibitive education costs, at the top end!

To all of you poor buggars flinching and twitching about a modicom of critizism of the "sunburnt land", grow up! Why the hell do you think so many ex-pat Ozzies are living out of the country?

Why do you think that hundreds of Ozzie ex service men from the VN war are now living in Asia and Europe? Between the Wranger and the budgy smuggler, they've had a complete gutfull!

So there!

cannot disagree with you,but cant see any posts lauding australia as the land of opportunity,it surely once was but not anymore.

I'll bite. Depends on your circumstances, for skilled people Australia is one of the Lands of Opportunity. e.g. a company I worked for in the IT industry arranged 457 visas for some South Africans who wished to start a new life in Australia due to issues in RSA. All were able to bring their families and successfully start new lives and will be able to apply for citizenship after 4 years from entry.

My Thai stepson relocated to Oz when he was 12, now an Australian citizen with a well paid job, with no intention of returning to Thailand.

Depending on your skill and smarts Australia has the environment to attain High Net Worth, double digit growth last year in the numbers of individuals, with 207,000 in Australia identified as High Net Worth with a total of $US625 billion of assets.

[harrry]

A nice country..the tourist bureau publications even ask you not to give gifts or money to the kids who smile and say hello as it will make them think that farangs are just there to be a money tree.

A much gentler pace and less western than here. A lot like North Thailand 25 years ago.

[Lakegeneve]

Having spent some of my best years in the "nanny state" (OZ) I have to agree with the OP! One of the things that Lao and Oz have in common is "space"! 21 million in Oz, 7 1/2 million ? in Lao. They're both nanny states, have vast differences between the rich and poor, they both make it very difficult to lift oneself up by your bootstraps economically and interlectually by means of prohibitive education costs, at the top end!

To all of you poor buggars flinching and twitching about a modicom of critizism of the "sunburnt land", grow up! Why the hell do you think so many ex-pat Ozzies are living out of the country?

Why do you think that hundreds of Ozzie ex service men from the VN war are now living in Asia and Europe? Between the Wranger and the budgy smuggler, they've had a complete gutfull!

So there!

cannot disagree with you,but cant see any posts lauding australia as the land of opportunity,it surely once was but not anymore.

Yeah, 12th largest economy in the world, continuous growth for the last 25 years (ie. no recession in that time), ave net worth of $400K.

I'm sure that Laos would like to have just a fraction of those economic stats

Seriously, Australians don't know how good they have had it and do have it. Many like the above two really seem to live in some insular bubble with no idea just how hard it has been for many in the US and western europe. Anyone thinking that Australia is doing badly economically really should become a Laos citizen and have a reality check!

[mike2011]

The country is not necessarily declining. How can you define decline following the Indochina War? Most bombed place on earth, mines, bombs, ammunition everywhere. An effective embargo from the west who continued to promote Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge right next door. Did forget the attempts at landgrab from a western neighbor? The Chinese had helped them - against cash or: the deforestation and exploitation of natural resources. International solidarity Bejing stile. Before World War 1 this was called imperialism.

Now: They managed to restart their fine coffee production. Just a limited area, I know, but it works. The tourism industry which is an ambivalent blessing has also brought modest wealth to several areas. The country's infrastructure is weak and the roads are build according to their neighbor's needs. For example the Thailand/China highway.

On the other hand, large areas are not integrated into an national or international division of labor or exchange of goods. It is hard to compare the Savannaket plain with mountain areas. A better comparison would be to compare the immediate Thai areas across the Mekong and Cambodia. Many other areas are similar to regions in Tak and Kanchanaburi province - those districts directly on the Burma border.

Decline assumes a simplistic model. Rise, peak, decline. It comes from the 18th century and was used to described the history of the Roman empire and others later on. Thus it came in very handy to explain why the west was taking over the Middle East and other areas in Asia. Some might subscribe to such notions, other won't.

For me the question arises: When was Laos on the rise? When the Lanna dynastie fled from Chiang Mai? When the French took over and did not invest? When the Thais extracted tribute? Before the Thais burned down Champamsak, Vientiane, etc. (while keep complaining of the Burmese burning of Ayuthaya till today...)? When was there a peak?

Better to look at such boring things like child mortality, life expectancy, literacy and so on. This tells as more about the living conditions of the people Per capita income wont help too much given the organization of the economy/mies.

If the Laotians manage to improve on the the basic needs of their people it will be a big achievement. If some expats and their ill-conceived perspectives cant grasp the social, economic and also historic conditions of the country and its people - well then their views reflect on them and not the country they imagine to talk about.

[samuibeachcomber]

'australians dont know how good they've got it"..........amen to that!No one could disagree that australia is an affluent country by world standards,and of course it would be a 'yardstick" for any young asians wanting to go there to better themselves,no argument there.but us older citizens who were in OZ in the 60's and 70's the country now is a poor shadow of its former self.Engulfed by govt. regulations,its citizenry bemoans all the taxes they have to pay,never happy with the wages they receive always not enough............and yes "houses and apartments being so expensive".The list could go on.So living a simple life in Laos(for a farang)with not necessarily a lot of money can become quite an attractive proposition.

Leading a quiet simple life has its own rewards,but to all those young asians seeking an education,working for decent money in a clean environment you could not do better than go to australia.

[White Tiger]

OP - "....I would like to know why loas doesnt produce any thing???..."

It does - it produces electricity and exports it to Thailand.

ok listen closely my child you wont hear logic from too many people.

There is no reason what so ever to export any thing unless two countries can produce certain product in a more efficient manner giving that country a competitive advantage minus transport costs.

thus if one country can produce oranges in a more efficient manner, ie less time and with less man power due to the quality if soil or access to an abundance of nutrients, that country may want to trade its oranges for a commodity that another country can produce more efficiently that its own community.

today we export for what commodity??????

fish?

we export and recieve foreign reserves,

"but wait a second OP... the producers are being paid in kip?? where are is the baht going???" good question child

each time those foreign reserves come into a country, the centeal BANK ... PRINTS its national currency to buy up those foreign reserves. thus fresh fiat money flows to the producers KIP and the governments get to spend those reserves over seas (usually on arms or spying activities)

thus the benifit of exporting is nullified and your only profit is inflation. LOTS AND LOTS OF KIP (BECAUSE THE EXCHANGE RATE IS SO BAD)

or put another way, today the import export method is broken/usurped by a immoral entity.

exporting electricity to thailand gives inflation the the people and baht to the central bank and govt.

walk through a shopping center in laos, they dont produce ANY THING.

printing pressess and its child fiat money is the reason so many coutries suffer from such large trade deficits. thats why you see so much gold flowing into the countries with trade surpluses.

you wont really have to worry about this untill there is a mass understanding of the problem. then the creditor nations AND the dumb peasants sleeping in their tuk tuks, wearing their red shirts, going on their sexpats journeys will all be grabbing a commodity hands over and feet.

but they govt my just instead decide to demonetise the 1000b note before that happens

I talk to a lot of people, and we r so far from thay stage it laughable.

Just to try to get some clarify out of that, are you agreeing with me that Laos produces and exports electricity?

It doesn't really matter anyway because the OECD has already determined that it does. It's a major hydro electric producer and has a plan in place to increase its capacity. Russia, China and Japan are planned future customers. You can see the OECD report here http://www.oecd.org/countries/laopeoplesdemocraticrepublic/47180387.pdf Section B of Appendix 5 contains some of the details of the agreement between Thailand and Laos, under which you will see Laos will supply electricity to Thailand for a term of 25 years.

[AyG]

"I would like to know why loas doesnt produce any thing???"

It produces sweet potatoes, vegetables, corn, coffee, sugarcane and tobacco, cotton, tea, peanuts, rice, cassava, water buffalo, pigs, cattle and poultry.

It produces copper, tin, gold and gypsum, timber, electric power, rubber, garments and cement.

Apart from that, it doesn't produce anything.

And from 2008-2012 (latest figures available), its GDP grew by at least 7% each year.

Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/la.html

[Hardened Spanker]

I think that the only question relevant on this thread is...is the OP kept well away from the knife drawer?

[paz]

If you are curious about Laos but can't visit it now, watch "The Rocket", incidentally a Laos/Australian production.

[paz]

Seriously, Australians don't know how good they have had it and do have it. Many like the above two really seem to live in some insular bubble with no idea just how hard it has been for many in the US and western europe. Anyone thinking that Australia is doing badly economically really should become a Laos citizen and have a reality check!

I've been to Australia twice recently and I have seen first person what you say, that is of course true.

But, you will find the the complains all come Australians, expatriated or not, that are disgruntled with the ever increasing regulations and taxation (still laughable compared to Europe). For many, making AUD 700 a week is not enough, when rent is $450 and everything else also horribly expensive.

[simple1]

Seriously, Australians don't know how good they have had it and do have it. Many like the above two really seem to live in some insular bubble with no idea just how hard it has been for many in the US and western europe. Anyone thinking that Australia is doing badly economically really should become a Laos citizen and have a reality check!

I've been to Australia twice recently and I have seen first person what you say, that is of course true.

But, you will find the the complains all come Australians, expatriated or not, that are disgruntled with the ever increasing regulations and taxation (still laughable compared to Europe). For many, making AUD 700 a week is not enough, when rent is $450 and everything else also horribly expensive.

I bet many of the Australians you have met have omitted to tell you the amount of money they receive in benefits payments i.e. Middle Class welfare

[Lakegeneve]

Seriously, Australians don't know how good they have had it and do have it. Many like the above two really seem to live in some insular bubble with no idea just how hard it has been for many in the US and western europe. Anyone thinking that Australia is doing badly economically really should become a Laos citizen and have a reality check!

I've been to Australia twice recently and I have seen first person what you say, that is of course true.

But, you will find the the complains all come Australians, expatriated or not, that are disgruntled with the ever increasing regulations and taxation (still laughable compared to Europe). For many, making AUD 700 a week is not enough, when rent is $450 and everything else also horribly expensive.

I bet many of the Australians you have met have omitted to tell you the amount of money they receive in benefits payments i.e. Middle Class welfare

The average weekly salary in Australia is over $1400-.

Anyone on $700- a week is either P/T or at the low end of unskilled work. Horribly expensive, try Norway. Expensive, definitely. And yes Middle class welfare is significant and no one wants to give it up. People in Laos would appreciate even a little bit of basic welfare.

Again, comparing to Laos is a foolish exercise. Two different worlds.

[paz]

The average weekly salary in Australia is over $1400-.

Anyone on $700- a week is either P/T or at the low end of unskilled work. Horribly expensive, try Norway. Expensive, definitely. And yes Middle class welfare is significant and no one wants to give it up. People in Laos would appreciate even a little bit of basic welfare.

Again, comparing to Laos is a foolish exercise. Two different worlds.

I don't know why i wrote $700. It's certainly more or a lot more than that.

[simple1]

Seriously, Australians don't know how good they have had it and do have it. Many like the above two really seem to live in some insular bubble with no idea just how hard it has been for many in the US and western europe. Anyone thinking that Australia is doing badly economically really should become a Laos citizen and have a reality check!

I've been to Australia twice recently and I have seen first person what you say, that is of course true.

But, you will find the the complains all come Australians, expatriated or not, that are disgruntled with the ever increasing regulations and taxation (still laughable compared to Europe). For many, making AUD 700 a week is not enough, when rent is $450 and everything else also horribly expensive.

I bet many of the Australians you have met have omitted to tell you the amount of money they receive in benefits payments i.e. Middle Class welfare

The average weekly salary in Australia is over $1400-.

Anyone on $700- a week is either P/T or at the low end of unskilled work. Horribly expensive, try Norway. Expensive, definitely. And yes Middle class welfare is significant and no one wants to give it up. People in Laos would appreciate even a little bit of basic welfare.

Again, comparing to Laos is a foolish exercise. Two different worlds.

Current minimum wage for full time worker 20 years of age & above is A$622.20 of which more than likely a million plus workers that includes the right for paid sick leave & four weeks holiday. Yes there is no comparison to Laos

[Lakegeneve]

Current minimum wage for full time worker 20 years of age & above is A$622.20 of which more than likely a million plus workers that includes the right for paid sick leave & four weeks holiday. Yes there is no comparison to Laos

I can't comment on the F/T minimum wage you state as usually is depends on the sector and type of job but no doubt a million+ do earn much less than the ave wage.

However, the ave wage is a good indicator for any country when having a discussion about income and living standards hence the absurd nature of the OPs post and other related comments complaining about Australia,

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Products/6302.0~May+2013~Main+Features~Key+Figures?OpenDocument

[mike2011]

It is of limited value to use established modes of comparison which are employed in discussions of industrialized nations in the case of Laos. The average wage or income does not mean much in a country where subsistence agriculture is still important. Questions about taxation, health case and government services also need to be considered. Economists usually fail to comprehend the complexities of society and reduce to favor their simplistic growth models.

The Laotian economy can hardly be analyzed along the lines Australia, the EU, or the US might be.

I m confident that the villagers south of Luang Namta are terribly worried about the prospects of Australia.

The question for Laos is not one of decline but of rising Chinese influence and economic penetration. Let's hope the country finds a way to avoid developing into something like a Chinese colony.

[paz]

The comparison is, of course, not serious. The OP just highlighted few facts that stroke his attention, then some semi-serious debate has followed, from which possibly someone has learned somethign or has seen things from a different POV. That is probably the best way to enjoy time on a forum.

[EyesWideOpen]

I have spent a LOT of time in Laos. Great beer, and the women are far hotter than Thailand. That is

somewhat due to the fact they are still thin, and have not chunked out from 7-11 snacks like Thai

women have done. And yes, Laos has truly had a tragic past. Sadly it was that very economic

weakness that allowed China to come in and gobble up the country like a snack. So it has in essence

become a southern province of China.

[lovelaos]

Some of the crap you read on here truly is comical. Typical Thai based expats view of Laos, come over for a few days on a visa run, get pissed in 'bor phen nyang' bar chatting to other visa runners doing the same mundane task, and has an experts view of the whole country.

Idiot!!

[Showbags]

Any examples of these hotter woman ?

And I did not know Australia was land locked.

[FACTOR]

OP, did you figure all this out in your visa run?

Pretty impressive.

[MrWorldwide]

Some of the crap you read on here truly is comical. Typical Thai based expats view of Laos, come over for a few days on a visa run, get pissed in 'bor phen nyang' bar chatting to other visa runners doing the same mundane task, and has an experts view of the whole country. Idiot!!

I'm not even sure the OP could find his way to Bor Pen Nyang without the aid of a labrador, and the dog might well be the only way for him to meet women - including working girls - when he arrives. I like black labradors, but I guess they are all the same to the blind

[Showbags]

Some of the crap you read on here truly is comical. Typical Thai based expats view of Laos, come over for a few days on a visa run, get pissed in 'bor phen nyang' bar chatting to other visa runners doing the same mundane task, and has an experts view of the whole country. Idiot!!

I'm not even sure the OP could find his way to Bor Pen Nyang without the aid of a labrador, and the dog might well be the only way for him to meet women - including working girls - when he arrives. I like black labradors, but I guess they are all the same to the blind

You can tell a black lab from the way it walks.

[Showbags]

oh and the size of its arse...

[BugJackBaron]

First time I was in Vientienne 10 years ago, there was an "underground"(literally) karoeoke where you could talk to and "date" the girls if you wanted. Last trip a year ago there was no sign of it so perhaps the government has clamped down.

My feeling was - and it is just a feeling - is that the government tries really hard to keep Laos as a backpacker only country...

What do you think?

[rogerdee123]

First time I was in Vientienne 10 years ago, there was an "underground"(literally) karoeoke where you could talk to and "date" the girls if you wanted. Last trip a year ago there was no sign of it so perhaps the government has clamped down.

My feeling was - and it is just a feeling - is that the government tries really hard to keep Laos as a backpacker only country...

What do you think?

If your question is referring to girls ... I think you don't know where to look.

If your question is in regard to your feelings about Laos wanting to keep the country a backpacker only place ..... I think you couldn't be more incorrect.

[HooHaa]

forget the pithy observations that as a whole acheive nothing but show the OP up as shallow at best, what do any of the point do to either draw a parallel with Australia and how to they serve to indicate that Laos is in decline.

frankly, i find the post baffling for many reasons.

[MrWorldwide]

Laos - the flashpacker-driven economy

[simon43]

My feeling was - and it is just a feeling - is that the government tries really hard to keep Laos as a backpacker only country...

I worked in Luang Prabang as Headmaster of the international school last year. Yes there were backpackers in town of course. But many tourists were staying in VERY expensive hotels, say between $1000 - $5000 a night.

As for female 'company', one just has to be discrete, (especially with my job!). Whore mongers are definitely not welcome - and that's a very good thing IMHO.

I very rarely take a break from my Phuket hotel businesses. But in a few weeks I 'll take a short holiday. My destination? Back to Laos of course to ride an off-road motorbike on the high mountain trails - away from the madness of Thailand.

As far as developing tourism in Lao PDR, they seem to be doing it right. One reason (IMHO), is because they are taking advice from expert overseas tourism consultants. Can you imagine TAT doing that?

Simon

[Bkungbank]

They rest more then they work 12.00 p.m to 2 p.m sleeping time 5 p.m go back time, thanks to France people who teach then to be lazy