Seeking 'return to morality' via a mass people's movement: Interview

[fab4]

What little credibility this article had was lost the moment this phrase was uttered;

"Why do you think 5.8 million people in Bangkok showed up on the streets last Sunday [December 22, in an effort] to force out the Thaksin regime?"

[retsdon]

It's hopeless.

[khunken]

What little credibility this article had was lost the moment this phrase was uttered;

"Why do you think 5.8 million people in Bangkok showed up on the streets last Sunday [December 22, in an effort] to force out the Thaksin regime?"

One statement, however exaggerated, does not take anything away from the article. It might take a little away from the subject but the rest is spot on.

I'm not going to try and estimate how many were on the streets on that Sunday (it certainly was the largest I've seen here) but when the police estimate 135,000 that is removing credibility (if they had any in the first place). Every protest here has estimates boosted by the leaders of whatever colour and played down by their opponents. It's the same on TV threads.

[ianf]

Scariest of all is the amount of people who believe this rubbish...

Even more scary are those that follow the red shirts and Thaksin. Especially the more extreme elements.

[ianf]

Better questions:

Given the support you claim to have, do you believe that if you (PDRC or aligned parties) did field candidates in the upcoming election you would win? If so, why not do so?

If not, why not? Why do you think it impossible to convince even a small fraction of Thaksin's 15 million to support you?

Try this for an answer:

"Because these will be stolen elections (again) that do not address the concern of the rank and file. The concern is how power is concentrated into the hands of one family and how this family has managed to distort the whole concept of democracy. Historical evidence shows that merely holding an election is not a demonstration of democracy. Saddam, Mussolini, Kim, Hun Sen and many others have shown this to be so. What we are asking for is a clear, fair and transparent election that allows ALL parties to compete on equal terms. For example, the Red supporters defacing more than 90% of the posters errected by the Democrats at the last election is not a demonstration of a fair and democratic electoral process. Nor is the setting up of red villages where, in many cases, if you do not vote for the PTP then you are a marked person in that village and do not share the privileges that your neighbours enjoy. And democracy, above all, is dependent on the rule of law. When the ruling party is in fact run by a convicted criminal on the run from justice how can anyone call this a democratic process. This stretches credulity too far."

Does this help Coco?

[shiok]

Scariest of all is the amount of people who believe this rubbish...

Uou are saying you do not believe the shinawatras are cheating the country blind? then i think you are blind.

[cocopops]

Better questions:

Given the support you claim to have, do you believe that if you (PDRC or aligned parties) did field candidates in the upcoming election you would win? If so, why not do so?

If not, why not? Why do you think it impossible to convince even a small fraction of Thaksin's 15 million to support you?

Try this for an answer:

"Because these will be stolen elections (again) that do not address the concern of the rank and file. The concern is how power is concentrated into the hands of one family and how this family has managed to distort the whole concept of democracy. Historical evidence shows that merely holding an election is not a demonstration of democracy. Saddam, Mussolini, Kim, Hun Sen and many others have shown this to be so. What we are asking for is a clear, fair and transparent election that allows ALL parties to compete on equal terms. For example, the Red supporters defacing more than 90% of the posters errected by the Democrats at the last election is not a demonstration of a fair and democratic electoral process. Nor is the setting up of red villages where, in many cases, if you do not vote for the PTP then you are a marked person in that village and do not share the privileges that your neighbours enjoy. And democracy, above all, is dependent on the rule of law. When the ruling party is in fact run by a convicted criminal on the run from justice how can anyone call this a democratic process. This stretches credulity too far."

Does this help Coco?

It begins to speak to it. Thanks for the answer. If I were to play the devil's advocate, based on my limited understanding of the situation, I would respond that:

The most recent elections were not stolen. Nobody has credibly claimed that (If I'm wrong here, please provide a link). And while it is true that dictators have come to power via the ballot box, it is also true that many have seized power as part of revolutions conducted on behalf of "the people". But in both cases the comparison is ridiculous. Thaksin, Yingluck and Suthep are nothing like those tyrants. And it's insensitive to the many, many victims of such to pretend otherwise.

As for "distorting the whole concept of democracy", well... come on.

So we're left with:

• Red supporters defacing posters,
• The idea that people in far off villages are being compelled to vote for Thaksin & co. by violence and other extraordinary means.
• The fact that Thaksin himself is a fugitive from justice.

Of the three above, the second seems the most important. Sounds like despicable behaviour that should certainly be stopped. But is anyone seriously contending that this sort of thing influenced the election result? The areas where this can occur must be areas where the populace is pretty solidly red anyhow.

Much is made of Thaksin's criminal convictions. And the fact that he has (so far) evaded punishment. Assuming the conviction was justified (and I have no reason to believe it was not - just noting that I don't know) this should also be rectified. That he is caught and imprisoned is important in the sense that it provides a disincentive to future corrupt politicians. But I don't see that it goes further than that. That Yingluck takes advice from him is not a betrayal against those who voted for her (it was, after all, her campaign slogan). Reagan took advice from an astrologer.

So for me, I guess my questions stand. These things seem to be political scandals, nothing more. Nothing like the magnitude of what should be required to seize control of the state and suspend the democratic process by extraordinary means. Which is, after all, a pretty big step (or at least it should be).

If I missed anything, please correct me. If there is information out there that can help me change my mind, please provide links!

Final clarification: If there were a real election tomorrow and I were invited to vote, I would vote Democrat.

Edited January 2, 2014 by cocopops

[Melpomene]

Scariest of all is the amount of people who believe this rubbish...

Uou are saying you do not believe the shinawatras are cheating the country blind? then i think you are blind.

Where did I say that ??

[DMG333]

Return to morality? There's no morality in Thai politics.

Fair and clean people in Thai politics can be counted within a dozen. So I'd say to Khun Hataikarn:"Don't insult people intelligence, and keep morality out of the bout"

Was watching the nation channel earlier on. The former EC member made a very good point.....he said in Thailand, all political parties in Thailand buy votes in one way or another. The politician that sat beside was dumb folded instantaneously. ??

[hellodolly]

Return to morality? There's no morality in Thai politics.

Fair and clean people in Thai politics can be counted within a dozen. So I'd say to Khun Hataikarn:"Don't insult people intelligence, and keep morality out of the bout"

In all fairness to him I do believe the council for reform is to be made up of other groups besides politicians. Academics and business people are to be included and it would be good to see the military represented there also. Not sure who they could get to represent labor but there should be a representative for them. Don't know if there is unions or not. Just the Government one who I would not trust.

[hellodolly]

Regardless as to what one may think of the various views expressed by Witthaya, there is one undeniable truth that he offers. The people on the streets are united by one thing - they can't stand Thaksin's grip on this administration. That is what holds the protests together, and what will continue to hold them together. That will simply not go away. People are completely repulsed by the corruption. That's pretty clear, because - to be honest - it's pretty clear to everybody ! And their natural impulse is to take to the streets. It's really that simple. So it's not a question of arguing the movement into submission. That is how they feel. And that is how they will continue to feel. And it has got results. Things are very much different now than they were just a week ago. That's the power of public opinion mobilized.

And many people cannot stand the alternative to PTP/TS. That is why you have ELECTIONS, whereby the prevailing desires of the nation decide who will be PM.

If I'm not mistaken Thaksin got 13+ million votes and the dems got nearly 12 million, Thaksin can only claim 15 million because of the coalition parties that joined government. But the red power base must be demishing as each day goes by because they are still waiting for their rice money!

You must ask yourself if many people really can't stand the alternative to PTP. When the truth is infront of their own eyes. They have been used by one man for one mans aims. Maybe you forget even a faction of the reds were against the amnesty bill becuase in their eyes it let off Abhisit and Suthep, and they beleived the lies spread by the red leaders. Now they see the reality!

Accroding to wiki PTP got 15.7 million and the Dems 11.4. If what you say is true about the diminishing support surely they should contest the election? In my view the only way out of this ridiculous cycle is for the Dems to win legitimately at the polls.

What you say is true. but the there should be reform on the election procedure before an election. As it stands now the Party with the most disposable cash will be the winner.

I am not saying I approve of vote buying but if the population had a proper education vote buying would not have the power it has now. Unfortunately a population with a decent education has never been in the cards for any of the previous governments or the current one.

According to wiki PTP got 15.7 million and the Dems 11.4. Did it say how much the other parties got?

It will take a long time before Thailand sees a legitimate government with out reform. Having the most votes does not mean you are legitimate.

I can not see any government especially the current one making reforms for the good of Thailand shortly after they win an election. Any changes will be to strengthen them. The PTP has taken a beating but I think dim witted as they are they have learned that they must consider the people in what they do. Then again I could be wrong. They might really be dumb as a barn door.

One of two things is going to happen. One we will continue to see the government treasury used as a personal bank for the politicians or, Two we will have an intern government of some sort while a council puts together acceptable reform proposals.

I have no idea who the council would have on it but Suthep and Yingluc or any one of the Shinawtra clan should be kept away from it. While their intentions might be honerable they are to close minded to participate.

[expat888]

The problem is Thais have their own definition of morality and it's not the same as people outside Thailand.

This is why each country has it's own name, rules, morals, version of religion, military, boundaries, people and their management systems...

That's fine if you want to block out the rest of the world as Thailand does, but if your country is interested in participating with the world community then your comment doesn't float.

[belg]

morality, is not a word in thai....

greed & corruption = religion

[catmac]

Why do you think 5.8 million people in Bangkok showed up on the streets last Sunday [December 22]

Hes kidding right ?

you don't want to discuss morality on this thread either?

I think Englishoak is talking about "morality". Someone who can tell such outrageous lies in an interview can hardly be regarded as an upholder of "morality", but then as you have swallowed all the other codswallop dished out by PDRC you wouldn't see the logic in this.