Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[sirineou]

I don't think people, at least in the west, have any fear of revealing their atheism. They probably did 20 years ago but not now.

Also America is not the world.

Nor is 'the West' the world. In many parts of 'the world' the punishment for coming out as atheist is death. The punishment for apostasy within Islam is death, granted (thankfully) many Islamic countries decide to ignore this divine commandment but it is there, it exists. That's 1.3 Billion people straight off the bat.

I do counselling for two charities. One deals with victims of abusive partners, mostly female but exclusively so. The other is for people in the southern states of the US who have come out as atheist and been shunned by their family, their friends and neighbours. Many lose their job too. These poor people have their whole world taken away from them, not because of what they believe but because of what they don't. First point of call is to get them to attempt some form of reconciliation with their family. Sometimes it works but not often. Most leave town, leave state actually but a large number simply fall through a hole and end up killing themselves, becoming drug addicts, drunkards and/or homeless.

It's not easy doing what I do and it's emotionally stressful and very draining. It is not healthy to inflict this on myself but I do it anyway because I care about people. Your almost off the cuff remark (top quote above) brings a tear to my eye.

Once again my understanding of America is limited, I have only been to Disneyland and Montana. And I haven't been there since I was a teenager.

However I do understand what you mean. It is the families of people who change their faith or abandon it that are likely to have the strongest reaction. I have met a man in Pakistan who has survived two murder attempts from his own family because he renounced Islam. And a man in Thailand who as a teenager was held down while his mother burned his chest with an iron because he left Buddhism. I have not heard any equally violent accounts from ex Christians I have met, but I do know that it can tear a family apart. I see how my post was too simplistic. I was speaking more of how people who are atheists seem very pleased and excited to let everyone know about it.

Was Montana part of the Union when you were a teenager?

[canuckamuck]

-I really don't follow American politics, I don't think I could name more than 5 American politicians, but you are right in the fact that the weirdness of American politics includes a particular Norman Rockwell family expectation of major candidates. Also America is not the world.

-Not many cultures have been kind to homosexuals and even South Africa persecuted blacks. You can't make that a Christian phenomenon. Although Christian history is full of appalling inhumanity. None of which can be supported by The Bible. Atheism as a cultural identity has not really had much opportunity to have a track record yet.

-So it is Ok to persecute people on things they have chosen to believe just not what they inherited genetically?

-Incoherent, really. I must improve my skills.

I didn't say science is the new religion, that is your addition. I was describing how people have a religious adherence to it (faith in it). Very similar to the dark ages when the priests were the final authority on all things; today it is the science that cannot be questioned. "How can you argue with science"? Is a common phrase in these types of discussions.

Yes if science is corrupted it is not scientific. But we are not always talking about organic chemistry or physics and the like. Quite a lot of what is covered under the banner of science are things like consensus, and untestable postulation. When it comes to spirituality science really has no foundation to make an opinion, yet people use science as their evidence against the spiritual realm.

Logic can only be trusted in the supernatural realm if one understands the logic of the supernatural.

Nothing is supernatural.

As if saying it makes it true...

Well in order for something to be Supernatural , it would have to be supernatural,(outside of nature)

our perceptions are limited to those with in Nature, unless one has Supernatural abilities,

so anything you are able to perceive is natural, and should be describable with in natural explanations.

Thus nothing is Supernatural

as I said unless of course you have Supernatural abilities in which case , please do tell.

As you may know, Christians believe man is composed of three parts. (body, mind/consciousness, spirit). Once you learned to access part three you can begin to develop your spiritual senses. It really helps sort stuff like this out.

[sirineou]

As you may know, Christians believe man is composed of three parts. (body, mind/consciousness, spirit). Once you learned to access part three you can begin to develop your spiritual senses. It really helps sort stuff like this out.

I am familiar with the body, and I am sure I have a mind, well not always , but most of the time

but please explain this soul thing

[canuckamuck]

Actually terms can be confusing here too. Soul is sometimes considered spirit, but in Christian terminology the soul is synonymous with mind and consciousness, whereas the spirit is something else. It is your soul that was thinking up what to say, whereas you spirit might be described as your conscience. However I am not completely happy with this analogy. I prefer to think of it as a specialized conscience. You might have felt it as a gut feeling, but it is not limited to that. Soul and spirit move on, flesh is temporary.

[ivan96822]

A believer, here.

Raised a Catholic so you can be an animal as much as you like. Just don't forget to confess.

I have forgotten to confess for the past fifteen years...

[sirineou]

Actually terms can be confusing here too. Soul is sometimes considered spirit, but in Christian terminology the soul is synonymous with mind and consciousness, whereas the spirit is something else. It is your soul that was thinking up what to say, whereas you spirit might be described as your conscience. However I am not completely happy with this analogy. I prefer to think of it as a specialized conscience. You might have felt it as a gut feeling, but it is not limited to that. Soul and spirit move on, flesh is temporary.

I knew well when I asked the question, where this was going. that is why I asked

this has being discussed many times and it always ends up in the same place,

I would need to take your word for it,

no verifiable evidence for it's existence

So we need to use something that no one can prove that exists, to perceive something else that no one can verify that exists.

this process reminds me of a bull fight

A point here, a point there and in-between a whole lot of bull

.

[sirineou]

A believer, here.

Raised a Catholic so you can be an animal as much as you like. Just don't forget to confess.

I have forgotten to confess for the past fifteen years...

That's the problem with Alzheimer's disease,

No one can remember to take their medication

[canuckamuck]

Actually terms can be confusing here too. Soul is sometimes considered spirit, but in Christian terminology the soul is synonymous with mind and consciousness, whereas the spirit is something else. It is your soul that was thinking up what to say, whereas you spirit might be described as your conscience. However I am not completely happy with this analogy. I prefer to think of it as a specialized conscience. You might have felt it as a gut feeling, but it is not limited to that. Soul and spirit move on, flesh is temporary.

I knew well when I asked the question, where this was going. that is why I asked

this has being discussed many times and it always ends up in the same place,

I would need to take your word for it,

no verifiable evidence for it's existence

So we need to use something that no one can prove that exists, to perceive something else that no one can verify that exists.

this process reminds me of a bull fight

A point here, a point there and in-between a whole lot of bull

.

Not like I am surprised with where you went with it either. And so it goes. The best thing is to keep an open mind, you never know where you might discover a game changer.

Edited January 24, 2014 by canuckamuck

[thailiketoo]

I listened to this whole thing and it's like a road map to the Canadian fellows arguments.

1. Burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim.

2. Failing to give arguments for non existence does not concede the debate. The skeptic does not owe the claim maker arguments for non existence. The burden lies with the claim maker to present an adequate case.

3. Extraordinary claims have a an inescapable burden of proof.

[sirineou]

Actually terms can be confusing here too. Soul is sometimes considered spirit, but in Christian terminology the soul is synonymous with mind and consciousness, whereas the spirit is something else. It is your soul that was thinking up what to say, whereas you spirit might be described as your conscience. However I am not completely happy with this analogy. I prefer to think of it as a specialized conscience. You might have felt it as a gut feeling, but it is not limited to that. Soul and spirit move on, flesh is temporary.

I knew well when I asked the question, where this was going. that is why I asked

this has being discussed many times and it always ends up in the same place,

I would need to take your word for it,

no verifiable evidence for it's existence

So we need to use something that no one can prove that exists, to perceive something else that no one can verify that exists.

this process reminds me of a bull fight

A point here, a point there and in-between a whole lot of bull

.

Not like I am surprised with where you went with it either. And so it goes. The best thing is to keep an open mind, you never know where you might discover a game changer.

Mr Kanukamuk you are a lovely man, unflappable to the end

always keeping an open mind, and hedging my bets.,

[Neeranam]

I met the following Yogi in Mount Abu , India and it was a remarkable experience. When I was talking to her I couldn't see her head but all I saw was light. No drugs involved but the feeling of some presence was much better than any drug I've ever tried. The vdo is actually done in a way that was like the experience.She is actually a channel for receiving messages from God.

I have attended more Hawkwind concerts than I can shake a stick at, they also were remarkable experiences.

When listening to "The Captain" and the boys I also couldnt see them, strobes and dry ice prohibited it, yes I saw the light, I realised Lemmy was playing like a gawd.

Correct no drugs or artificial stimulants needed, just listen to Hawkwind, Space Ritual.

Set the controls to the heart of the sun.

Yeah great band. I really think you must be weird going to a Hawkwind concert without any drugs. Silver Machine is my favourite.

[Neeranam]

I met the following Yogi in Mount Abu , India and it was a remarkable experience. When I was talking to her I couldn't see her head but all I saw was light. No drugs involved but the feeling of some presence was much better than any drug I've ever tried. The vdo is actually done in a way that was like the experience.She is actually a channel for receiving messages from God.

these Monty Python skits are very Funny Thank you for sharing

and now for something completely different.

You are obviously deluded and closed minded. Whether there is a God or not is a serious question. You seem to think it is a joke. I am trying to educate you by sharing an experience I had to show the proof of a Higher being. You can't share any experience you have of there not being a higher being, can you?

Btw, do you believe in the soul?

[DualSportBiker]

ID does not follow the scientific method, nor has any credited, respected scientists with any papers that survive peer review. ID is no more convincing than the original text it specifically sets out to prove.

The natural world around us is not designed, there was no purpose, and no intelligence was needed.

and to us atheists, whose belief system is the only one arrived at by thought and reasoning

Au contraire. Anyone who takes a good look at the universe while using thought and reasoning, could easily come to the conclusion that it did not happen by accident - that someone or something planned it.

That is, wonderful.!!

Yet 733 posts later and we still wait for some of that "reasoning" that led to the conclusion that "someone or something planned it "

oh wait . sorry I forgot, "some one or something" wrote a book a few thousands of years ago that told us so.

There are many believers in God who are quite capable of constructive reasoning, just like many atheists. Too often though, the arguments between them degenerate into insults which serve no useful purpose in the quest for the truth, which I will presume, atheists are seeking just like believers.

The growing and convincing movement called Intelligent Design has analyzed nature through scientific method and, yes, reasoning in order to find, discover or explain, however one wishes to characterize it, the existence of a Higher Intelligence that created or caused to be created the seen world. Intelligent Design theorists and scientists use empirical methods to investigate nature from the standpoint that it was designed rather than being the result of a happy accident resulting from a cataclysmic event and lots and lots of time.

There are arguments for and against Intelligent Design. But it does no good to either side, if one is actually wanting the truth, to shut out the other. If you truly want some reasoning that leads to a conclusion that "someone or something planned it", you should have no issues with a little reading on the subject. This link below is not intended as final proof of the existence of God or even to convince you in any way that there is. I am offering it because you insinuate that believers are irrational and unreasoning which is bigoted.

If you are not interested and have absolute conclusive evidence there is no God, then this will be of no use to you but for those out there who are willing to read a bit and hopefully expand ones perspective here is an interesting read:

Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy - Design Arguments for the existence of God - http://www.iep.utm.edu/design/

Complexity in itself does not prove design. But design does require intelligence.

Sent - how is not that important...

[canuckamuck]

Actually terms can be confusing here too. Soul is sometimes considered spirit, but in Christian terminology the soul is synonymous with mind and consciousness, whereas the spirit is something else. It is your soul that was thinking up what to say, whereas you spirit might be described as your conscience. However I am not completely happy with this analogy. I prefer to think of it as a specialized conscience. You might have felt it as a gut feeling, but it is not limited to that. Soul and spirit move on, flesh is temporary.

I knew well when I asked the question, where this was going. that is why I asked

this has being discussed many times and it always ends up in the same place,

I would need to take your word for it,

no verifiable evidence for it's existence

So we need to use something that no one can prove that exists, to perceive something else that no one can verify that exists.

this process reminds me of a bull fight

A point here, a point there and in-between a whole lot of bull

.

Not like I am surprised with where you went with it either. And so it goes. The best thing is to keep an open mind, you never know where you might discover a game changer.

Mr Kanukamuk you are a lovely man, unflappable to the end

always keeping an open mind, and hedging my bets.,

I enjoy your comments as well, one of better discussions I have been involved with here, usually the really good topics get shut down.

[canuckamuck]

Another double post.

Edited January 24, 2014 by canuckamuck

[thailiketoo]

You are obviously deluded and closed minded. Whether there is a God or not is a serious question. You seem to think it is a joke. I am trying to educate you by sharing an experience I had to show the proof of a Higher being. You can't share any experience you have of there not being a higher being, can you?

Btw, do you believe in the soul?

Imagine if you can for a moment how an adult feels listening to a child who believes in the Easter Bunny. It is the same when a person who has not been conditioned/brainwashed to believe in a higher power.

I'm sure the child thinks they are educating the listener but it is all most people can do not to break out laughing.

[boomerangutang]

-I really don't follow American politics, I don't think I could name more than 5 American politicians, but you are right in the fact that the weirdness of American politics includes a particular Norman Rockwell family expectation of major candidates. Also America is not the world.

-Not many cultures have been kind to homosexuals and even South Africa persecuted blacks. You can't make that a Christian phenomenon. Although Christian history is full of appalling inhumanity. None of which can be supported by The Bible. Atheism as a cultural identity has not really had much opportunity to have a track record yet.

-So it is Ok to persecute people on things they have chosen to believe just not what they inherited genetically?

-Incoherent, really. I must improve my skills.

I didn't say science is the new religion, that is your addition. I was describing how people have a religious adherence to it (faith in it). Very similar to the dark ages when the priests were the final authority on all things; today it is the science that cannot be questioned. "How can you argue with science"? Is a common phrase in these types of discussions.

Yes if science is corrupted it is not scientific. But we are not always talking about organic chemistry or physics and the like. Quite a lot of what is covered under the banner of science are things like consensus, and untestable postulation. When it comes to spirituality science really has no foundation to make an opinion, yet people use science as their evidence against the spiritual realm.

Logic can only be trusted in the supernatural realm if one understands the logic of the supernatural.

Nothing is supernatural.

As if saying it makes it true...

Well in order for something to be Supernatural , it would have to be supernatural,(outside of nature)

our perceptions are limited to those with in Nature, unless one has Supernatural abilities,

so anything you are able to perceive is natural, and should be describable with in natural explanations.

Thus nothing is Supernatural

as I said unless of course you have Supernatural abilities in which case , please do tell.

The human mind is quite amazing. Its ability to perceive things which don't physically exist is phenomenal. Both on and off mind-altering drugs, I've seen and experienced many things (ghosts, opening doors, kalaidescopes in the sky, people with glistening garlands, aliens, etc etc) which I thought, at the time, existed - but which I found out later, were figments of my imagination - or hallucinations.

Trouble with religionists and people who love metaphysics, is they continue to believe their hallucinations actually exist.

It's like going to the movies. I can go see 2001 A Space Oddity, and become immersed in the great visuals etc. But when I leave the theater, I accept that the movie was a well crafted and believable story. I don't go on from there and believe that there are large heavy black cubicles orbiting around Jupiter (as depicted in the movie).

People who believe in God are people who dearly WANT TO BELIEVE IT. It's like a kid with a favorite teddy bear. That kid dearly loves that teddy and probably gets his imagination motivated to animate it. Whatever you do, DON'T TAKE THAT TEDDY BEAR AWAY from the kid. However, those of us reading this topic are adults, and we don't need to continue to animate a belief system. It may seem a bit scary to drop make-believe things, especially those that make us feel all warm and fuzzy (like a benevolent God) ....but YOU CAN DO IT. and you won't expire in a puff of colored smoke, and you won't got to eternal damnation. Deists are afraid to let go of their belief in God because they think the alternative is NOTHING. VOID, ETHER, VACUUM. It's not. It's nature, in all its manifestations. It's reality, warts and all.

[canuckamuck]

or not

[tigermonkey]

As if saying it makes it true...

Well in order for something to be Supernatural , it would have to be supernatural,(outside of nature)

our perceptions are limited to those with in Nature, unless one has Supernatural abilities,

so anything you are able to perceive is natural, and should be describable with in natural explanations.

Thus nothing is Supernatural

as I said unless of course you have Supernatural abilities in which case , please do tell.

The human mind is quite amazing. Its ability to perceive things which don't physically exist is phenomenal. Both on and off mind-altering drugs, I've seen and experienced many things (ghosts, opening doors, kalaidescopes in the sky, people with glistening garlands, aliens, etc etc) which I thought, at the time, existed - but which I found out later, were figments of my imagination - or hallucinations.

Trouble with religionists and people who love metaphysics, is they continue to believe their hallucinations actually exist.

It's like going to the movies. I can go see 2001 A Space Oddity, and become immersed in the great visuals etc. But when I leave the theater, I accept that the movie was a well crafted and believable story. I don't go on from there and believe that there are large heavy black cubicles orbiting around Jupiter (as depicted in the movie).

People who believe in God are people who dearly WANT TO BELIEVE IT. It's like a kid with a favorite teddy bear. That kid dearly loves that teddy and probably gets his imagination motivated to animate it. Whatever you do, DON'T TAKE THAT TEDDY BEAR AWAY from the kid. However, those of us reading this topic are adults, and we don't need to continue to animate a belief system. It may seem a bit scary to drop make-believe things, especially those that make us feel all warm and fuzzy (like a benevolent God) ....but YOU CAN DO IT. and you won't expire in a puff of colored smoke, and you won't got to eternal damnation. Deists are afraid to let go of their belief in God because they think the alternative is NOTHING. VOID, ETHER, VACUUM. It's not. It's nature, in all its manifestations. It's reality, warts and all.

Deists believe that "nature in all its manifestations" began from something other than an accident; I am truly open to your explanations ( not beliefs) of the starting point of "nature in all its manifestations", if it did not begin from something. All the most widely accepted current 'theories' are that it must have begun with physical laws which were universal, and a universe that was both homogeneous and isotropic ( the cosmological principle).

Without this beginning, yes, "the alternative is nothing".

I await your learned response.

[DualSportBiker]

It is not possible to know there is no god, just as it is impossible to know there is no tooth fairy. The claims that believers use to justify their belief, other than personal experience, have pretty much been debunked and/or replaced by more easily defendable explanations.

As for you choice of the assured believer over the assured non-believer, you offer no explanation as to why - no explanation of your so-called logic...

How can anyone say they know that there isn't a god ?

If two people came up to me, the first is 100% sure of god, and the second 100% sure of no god, I'd say the believer was logically more likely to be correct than the other.

Really the question in the OP isn't very good. "God" refers to a personable individual or entity. However; many of the believers in this thread have alluded to a non-deistic belief system.

Sent - how is not that important...

[Ulysses G.]

People who believe in God are people who dearly WANT TO BELIEVE IT.

I was raised a Catholic, but none of it ever seemed real to me, other than there had to be some sort of creator. I have always believed in God, because, to me, it is completely logical.

[sirineou]

I met the following Yogi in Mount Abu , India and it was a remarkable experience. When I was talking to her I couldn't see her head but all I saw was light. No drugs involved but the feeling of some presence was much better than any drug I've ever tried. The vdo is actually done in a way that was like the experience.She is actually a channel for receiving messages from God.

these Monty Python skits are very Funny Thank you for sharing

and now for something completely different.

You are obviously deluded and closed minded. Whether there is a God or not is a serious question. You seem to think it is a joke. I am trying to educate you by sharing an experience I had to show the proof of a Higher being. You can't share any experience you have of there not being a higher being, can you?

Btw, do you believe in the soul?

Firstly let me say that I believe in nothing that can not be verified by my senses

That is all I have and I am contend with that, I don't find the need to invent delusions to make me feel like I am something more than I really am.

What I am is enough for me.

I wish some day you will experience the peace associated with being happy with once self.

I am afraid it is you who is closed minded. In your quest to be something more than you really are, you have bought in to a load of bunk, now you are so heavily invested in bunk, you find it difficult to get out,

so you keep on throwing a lot of good intellectual capitol after bad.

You are not the first one and I am afraid you are not the last,I have seen it a million times, and it never ends well . at best it ends in a life dedicated to delusion. I hope you will demonstrate you professed open mindedness by at the very least considering what I said to be true.

You think I am joking??? as proof you showing me a poorly made video, with low production values, of some one repeating mindless phrases ??? Where was that glow you saw?

I gave you the benefit of doubt , and thought you were joking.

Where is that glow you said you saw??? why did they not try and save some production money and time by showing us the actual glow? could it be because there was non?

Now you are going to say, but I saw it. Is it possible that you were involved in some short of mass hysteria,

induced by sitting in the hot sun, wearing a Burger King happy meal paper crown, and repeating mindless phrases?????

All I am saying is, let's keep an open mind.

Edited January 24, 2014 by sirineou

[boomerangutang]

The human mind is quite amazing. Its ability to perceive things which don't physically exist is phenomenal. Both on and off mind-altering drugs, I've seen and experienced many things (ghosts, opening doors, kalaidescopes in the sky, people with glistening garlands, aliens, etc etc) which I thought, at the time, existed - but which I found out later, were figments of my imagination - or hallucinations.

Trouble with religionists and people who love metaphysics, is they continue to believe their hallucinations actually exist.

It's like going to the movies. I can go see 2001 A Space Oddity, and become immersed in the great visuals etc. But when I leave the theater, I accept that the movie was a well crafted and believable story. I don't go on from there and believe that there are large heavy black cubicles orbiting around Jupiter (as depicted in the movie).

People who believe in God are people who dearly WANT TO BELIEVE IT. It's like a kid with a favorite teddy bear. That kid dearly loves that teddy and probably gets his imagination motivated to animate it. Whatever you do, DON'T TAKE THAT TEDDY BEAR AWAY from the kid. However, those of us reading this topic are adults, and we don't need to continue to animate a belief system. It may seem a bit scary to drop make-believe things, especially those that make us feel all warm and fuzzy (like a benevolent God) ....but YOU CAN DO IT. and you won't expire in a puff of colored smoke, and you won't got to eternal damnation. Deists are afraid to let go of their belief in God because they think the alternative is NOTHING. VOID, ETHER, VACUUM. It's not. It's nature, in all its manifestations. It's reality, warts and all.

Deists believe that "nature in all its manifestations" began from something other than an accident; I am truly open to your explanations ( not beliefs) of the starting point of "nature in all its manifestations", if it did not begin from something. All the most widely accepted current 'theories' are that it must have begun with physical laws which were universal, and a universe that was both homogeneous and isotropic ( the cosmological principle).

Without this beginning, yes, "the alternative is nothing".

I await your learned response.

I believe life has developed at millions of places throughout the universe, at all times, starting perhaps a billion years after this version of the universe began (which would be approx 12.4 billion years ago). It's amazing, but not crafted by some omniscient being (God). Complex groups of molecules were amazingly able to create copies of themselves. Mind-boggling, perhaps, but not so outlandish as to be impossible. Is life on Earth descendant/seeded from life on comets or meteors? I seriously doubt it, but can't say it's impossible.

It's not a stretch to see how simple organic compounds are created by natural means, both at early Earth and even in some spaces between solar systems in space. Organic compounds, via tens of millions of years of interactions, could conceivably (pun intended) combine, become more complex, and thereby wind up replicating themselves. Rare indeed, but not impossible.

As for the word 'soul' - that's a contrived word that was invented for religious purposes, and can't be qualitatively defined or measured or isolated. It also seems to be fixed to humans, though New Agers and Hindus would say certain higher animals have souls also. In essence, it's hocus pocus and not worth all the bazillion calories devoted to discussing it for millenia.

I was raised a Catholic, but none of it ever seemed real to me, other than there had to be some sort of creator. I have always believed in God, because, to me, it is completely logical.

That 'creator' that you believe in (which you call God) - is it like an omniscient super-being who consciously/intentionally put the molecules together to create life? Kurt Vonnegut also believes in a creator, but I don't, even though I like Vonnegut's writing.

[thailiketoo]

That 'creator' that you believe in (which you call God) - is it like an omniscient super-being who consciously/intentionally put the molecules together to create life? Kurt Vonnegut also believes in a creator, but I don't, even though I like Vonnegut's writing.

Vonnegut described himself variously as a skeptic,freethinker, humanist, Unitarian Universalist, agnostic, and atheist. He disbelieved in the supernatural, considered religious doctrine to be "so much arbitrary, clearly invented balderdash," and believed people were motivated to join religions out of loneliness.He rejected the divinity of Jesus,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Vonnegut

Edited January 24, 2014 by thailiketoo

[tigermonkey]

The human mind is quite amazing. Its ability to perceive things which don't physically exist is phenomenal. Both on and off mind-altering drugs, I've seen and experienced many things (ghosts, opening doors, kalaidescopes in the sky, people with glistening garlands, aliens, etc etc) which I thought, at the time, existed - but which I found out later, were figments of my imagination - or hallucinations.

Trouble with religionists and people who love metaphysics, is they continue to believe their hallucinations actually exist.

It's like going to the movies. I can go see 2001 A Space Oddity, and become immersed in the great visuals etc. But when I leave the theater, I accept that the movie was a well crafted and believable story. I don't go on from there and believe that there are large heavy black cubicles orbiting around Jupiter (as depicted in the movie).

People who believe in God are people who dearly WANT TO BELIEVE IT. It's like a kid with a favorite teddy bear. That kid dearly loves that teddy and probably gets his imagination motivated to animate it. Whatever you do, DON'T TAKE THAT TEDDY BEAR AWAY from the kid. However, those of us reading this topic are adults, and we don't need to continue to animate a belief system. It may seem a bit scary to drop make-believe things, especially those that make us feel all warm and fuzzy (like a benevolent God) ....but YOU CAN DO IT. and you won't expire in a puff of colored smoke, and you won't got to eternal damnation. Deists are afraid to let go of their belief in God because they think the alternative is NOTHING. VOID, ETHER, VACUUM. It's not. It's nature, in all its manifestations. It's reality, warts and all.

Deists believe that "nature in all its manifestations" began from something other than an accident; I am truly open to your explanations ( not beliefs) of the starting point of "nature in all its manifestations", if it did not begin from something. All the most widely accepted current 'theories' are that it must have begun with physical laws which were universal, and a universe that was both homogeneous and isotropic ( the cosmological principle).

Without this beginning, yes, "the alternative is nothing".

I await your learned response.

I believe life has developed at millions of places throughout the universe, at all times, starting perhaps a billion years after this version of the universe began (which would be approx 12.4 billion years ago). It's amazing, but not crafted by some omniscient being (God). Complex groups of molecules were amazingly able to create copies of themselves. Mind-boggling, perhaps, but not so outlandish as to be impossible. Is life on Earth descendant/seeded from life on comets or meteors? I seriously doubt it, but can't say it's impossible.

It's not a stretch to see how simple organic compounds are created by natural means, both at early Earth and even in some spaces between solar systems in space. Organic compounds, via tens of millions of years of interactions, could conceivably (pun intended) combine, become more complex, and thereby wind up replicating themselves. Rare indeed, but not impossible.

As for the word 'soul' - that's a contrived word that was invented for religious purposes, and can't be qualitatively defined or measured or isolated. It also seems to be fixed to humans, though New Agers and Hindus would say certain higher animals have souls also. In essence, it's hocus pocus and not worth all the bazillion calories devoted to discussing it for millenia.

I was raised a Catholic, but none of it ever seemed real to me, other than there had to be some sort of creator. I have always believed in God, because, to me, it is completely logical.

That 'creator' that you believe in (which you call God) - is it like an omniscient super-being who consciously/intentionally put the molecules together to create life? Kurt Vonnegut also believes in a creator, but I don't, even though I like Vonnegut's writing.

Thank you for your reply, but your post completely ignores and misunderstands my post. Your talk of "organic compounds" misses any relevance to my post by "perhaps a billion years".

Your talk about "soul" has nothing to do with my post, since I said not one thing about soul.

As I said, "All the most widely accepted current 'theories' are that it must have begun with physical laws which were universal, and a universe that was both homogeneous and isotropic ( the cosmological principle).

Without this beginning, yes, "the alternative is nothing"." Without these prescursers, even the simple hydrogen atom could not come into being. Please explain how this came to be other than by an accident. Reason says that there was intelligent design to this. That is a deist view of god.

This is the subject on which I asked for your learned response.

[DualSportBiker]

SC. Sorry to say your understanding is in fact a misunderstanding. There is no "belief" is atheism. Belief is to atheism as abstinence is to the Karma Sutra.

Atheism is simply a term, personally I don't like it at all , I would rather be called a skeptic.

It is a term but it defining something by what it is not. We have no term for someone who does not collect stamps do we? Is the term an astampcollecter in any way meaningful?

As I understand it, atheists believe that there is no god. I know a lot of atheists on this thread try to portray themselves as agnostics, and I can understand why, from a practical point of view, due to a lack of confidence in their beliefs, they might choose to do so, but I am not convinced, and in my view it is dishonest, and if there is a God, I doubt He will be fooled either

SC

Edit: Spelling

Sent - how is not that important...

[Neeranam]

I was hypnotically regressed by a famous hypnotist once and found I lived in India in my last life, maybe why I love VDOs like the following

Edited January 24, 2014 by Neeranam

[sirineou]

SC. Sorry to say your understanding is in fact a misunderstanding. There is no "belief" is atheism. Belief is to atheism as abstinence is to the Karma Sutra.

Atheism is simply a term, personally I don't like it at all , I would rather be called a skeptic.

It is a term but it defining something by what it is not. We have no term for someone who does not collect stamps do we? Is the term an astampcollecter in any way meaningful?

As I understand it, atheists believe that there is no god. I know a lot of atheists on this thread try to portray themselves as agnostics, and I can understand why, from a practical point of view, due to a lack of confidence in their beliefs, they might choose to do so, but I am not convinced, and in my view it is dishonest, and if there is a God, I doubt He will be fooled either

SC

Edit: Spelling

Sent - how is not that important...

SC displays a fundamental misunderstanding what Atheism is, and it is not really his fault, his misunderstanding is a common cultural misunderstanding.

Every Atheist is in essence an agnostic,

Agnostic, is a Greek work, comprised of two elements, the prefix "A" which when placed before a word signifies the "absents of" and "Gnosis" which means knowledge.

Atheist means the absence of Knowledge of theism , We make no claims , it is you who makes claims about existence of god, and it is your fault for not providing as with any supporting evidence of your claim,as Such we have No knowledge , as we have no knowledge of many things.

Most of the supporting evidence available, no thanks to you , indicate that there is not,

but we keep an open mind.

Provide us with evidence that contradict the present secular evidence, and we are certainly willing to take a look at them and evaluate them.

and if such evidence is convincing we are ready to change our position. .

It is the only reasonable position, do you degree? if so how?

Until such time We remain Agnostic (no knowledge) .

[canuckamuck]

I wonder what would be the minimum evidence required for an atheist to change his position.

Would it be a personal experience, or a peer reviewed study?

[cashpower]

I wonder what would be the minimum evidence required for an atheist to change his position.

Would it be a personal experience, or a peer reviewed study?

I wonder what evidence there was for the theist to take his position in the first place?

Would it be the claims made in a fairytale or the rantings of an evangelist nut?