Exporting Grandma to Thailand

[roamer]

Thailand now due to be an Alzheimer's hub ?

"Sending elderly relatives to a care home can be a tough and emotional decision. But is booking a one-way flight to a destination 8,000 miles away a step too far?

Sybille Wiedmer lives in Zurich and is packing her suitcase for a trip to Thailand.

But this is no ordinary holiday. She is off to visit her mother who lives in a care home in the Thai city of Chiang Mai."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/

[krisb]

Hope my kids do this for me!

[rotary]

Is there a home near soi cowboy?

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Rooo]

Nonsensical & rude posts removed.

[BuffaloRescue]

Bloody good business model if you ask me.

I cant understand why this isnt being advertised all over the place.

Aged care with happy ending

[h90]

Hope my kids do this for me!

my family have taken care of two grandmothers in Farangistan and I am sure it better in Thailand....

[Opl]

The BBC's link is here :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25438325

[hermit2010]

I've got my step mother here in Issan and she is loving it. She is 87 and has dementure but knows the alternative is a care home in England. Here she is living with a family with kids as opposed to a house full of folks waiting to die which would be the case in the UK. Those who know Thailand won't be amazed to know my step mom also loves the friendly people and care she is getting.

Sadly she is subject to COP and her Deputy is now fighting hard to have her repatriated to the UK. His reasons are that 35k baht is too much for her to be paying for the 24/7 hands on care she needs and and gets and it's too complicated for him to administer from the UK!

Needless to say my step mom, who has the capacity to know what is happening and is mightily pissed at her Deputy, wants nothing of any thought of going to the UK.

Wish us luck as we fight the Deputy with my money as he fights back with her's.

[White Christmas13]

I've got my step mother here in Issan and she is loving it. She is 87 and has dementure but knows the alternative is a care home in England. Here she is living with a family with kids as opposed to a house full of folks waiting to die which would be the case in the UK. Those who know Thailand won't be amazed to know my step mom also loves the friendly people and care she is getting.

Sadly she is subject to COP and her Deputy is now fighting hard to have her repatriated to the UK. His reasons are that 35k baht is too much for her to be paying for the 24/7 hands on care she needs and and gets and it's too complicated for him to administer from the UK!

Needless to say my step mom, who has the capacity to know what is happening and is mightily pissed at her Deputy, wants nothing of any thought of going to the UK.

Wish us luck as we fight the Deputy with my money as he fights back with her's.

hermit2010 I guess you better get some more information about DEMENTIA!!!! A 87 year old person who got

this disease can not make up her own bed or let alone making decisions about anything, my wife works with

dementia people just ask her,being your first post you better improve on your facts and don't talk about some

thing you don't know anything about

[Suradit69]

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20140101/business/701019970/

Some with Alzheimer's find care in far-off nations

Alzheimer patients from Switzerland are cared by Thai caretakers during afternoon activities at Baan Kamlangchay care center in Chiang Mai province, northern Thailand. Thailand is poised to attract more Alzheimerís sufferers from the Alpine country and elsewhere. In this pleasant city ringed by mountains "Baan Kamlangchay" will be followed by a $10 million dollar, holiday-like home scheduled to open before mid-2014 and a small Alzheimerís unit within a retirement community set on the grounds of a former four-star resort.

I believe the concept is "out of sight out of mind."

On one trip to the US a few years ago I went along with some friends to visit the mother of one of them in what amounted to a high priced warehouse for the old and dying. I'm not an advocate of suicide for any reason, but if I were ever faced with the prospect of being incarcerated in a place like those I've seen in the US. I'd change my mine quickly.

Everyone was well-cared for, clean, well-fed and each room had a TV going to "entertain" the inmates, presumably most of the waking day and a bunch of minimum wage apparently foreign hired aides to look after them. They seemed to be genuinely caring and doing their best for those waiting to die.

The idea of putting the elderly on an ice floe and pushing them seaward or leaving them in the bush at night to be recycled by ravenous predators somehow doesn't seem as barbaric as dumping them in an asylum like one of those.

[hellodolly]

I've got my step mother here in Issan and she is loving it. She is 87 and has dementure but knows the alternative is a care home in England. Here she is living with a family with kids as opposed to a house full of folks waiting to die which would be the case in the UK. Those who know Thailand won't be amazed to know my step mom also loves the friendly people and care she is getting.

Sadly she is subject to COP and her Deputy is now fighting hard to have her repatriated to the UK. His reasons are that 35k baht is too much for her to be paying for the 24/7 hands on care she needs and and gets and it's too complicated for him to administer from the UK!

Needless to say my step mom, who has the capacity to know what is happening and is mightily pissed at her Deputy, wants nothing of any thought of going to the UK.

Wish us luck as we fight the Deputy with my money as he fights back with her's.

hermit2010 I guess you better get some more information about DEMENTIA!!!! A 87 year old person who got

this disease can not make up her own bed or let alone making decisions about anything, my wife works with

dementia people just ask her,being your first post you better improve on your facts and don't talk about some

thing you don't know anything about

You and your wife should study up on the disease. It is a progressive disease. People do not go to bed at night with perfectly clear minds and wake up full blown dementia.

You might want to double check that it is dementia people she works with.

[hellodolly]

I have been in two different places in Canada where the people are sent to die. Pathetic. One had a patient strapped to a potty chair. The care they were receiving was abysmal. People in their pajamas and a robe just sitting in their wheel chair in the hall ways looking off into nowhere.

I have had the privilege of seeing the care of an elderly gentleman here in Thailand. the care given was far better than what they could get back in the west. This lady stayed in the hospital until the Gentleman passed away. The care given here is far more personal than the care given in the old folks homes back in the west.

To the Thai's it is not just a business they care for the people.

[thousandpercent]

My family did this. It is not the right solution for everyone, but for , any people it is much better than the alternatives. In the U.S., good care might cost $15,000 per month. If you can't afford it, you probably get really lousy care. The choice is then do you want good care in Thailand for 70,000-90,000 baht per month, or do you want bad care closer to home? I think we made the right decision.

Sent from my GT-N5120 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[RedQualia]

Nope. Bad idea. Don't need more foreigners here in this civil war zone, no matter how good the care. Well, except perhaps for my mom. But no one else.

[Kudel]

I have been in two different places in Canada where the people are sent to die. Pathetic. One had a patient strapped to a potty chair. The care they were receiving was abysmal. People in their pajamas and a robe just sitting in their wheel chair in the hall ways looking off into nowhere.

I have had the privilege of seeing the care of an elderly gentleman here in Thailand. the care given was far better than what they could get back in the west. This lady stayed in the hospital until the Gentleman passed away. The care given here is far more personal than the care given in the old folks homes back in the west.

To the Thai's it is not just a business they care for the people.

Out of these 3 examples you can judge the whole elderly care system in the west ?its just a new emerging bussines in Thailand dont be silly. Edited January 6, 2014 by Kudel

[F4UCorsair]

At the first sign of a degenerative disease, I'd be looking to secure Nembutol, a drug used by vets for killing animals. It's freely available in Mexico, and many ageing Australians make the pilgrimage. I was recently chatting online with a dentist in Manila, and she has a vet friend who would make it available, so no long flight to Mexico for me.

I see no point in sitting in a rocking chair, staring at the ceiling, waiting to die. There is no cure for old age, and if coupled with a degenerative disease, or pain, it would be hell.

This link is worth taking a look at http://www.exitinternational.net/page/OurDirector

Edited January 6, 2014 by F4UCorsair

[wym]

Dementia isn't a "disease", it's just a cluster of symptoms with a variety of causes, Alzheimer's being of course the most common by far.

It simply means significant impairment of intellectual capacity, especially reasoning abilities and memory function. Radical personality changes can also occur.

It is indeed progressive, and can remain fairly mild for years and years, while some people deteriorate very rapidly. Also it can come and go, sometimes from one time of day to the next - very common for people to get worse in the evening.

Being surrounded by warm caring people and having access to the outdoors in nice weather would make this stage of life much more enjoyable compared to most facilities in farangland, and I'm sure could be much more cost-effective here.

Ideally of course other family members would live nearby and visit regularly, even if it seems the resident doesn't "appreciate" it.

[hellodolly]

I have been in two different places in Canada where the people are sent to die. Pathetic. One had a patient strapped to a potty chair. The care they were receiving was abysmal. People in their pajamas and a robe just sitting in their wheel chair in the hall ways looking off into nowhere.

I have had the privilege of seeing the care of an elderly gentleman here in Thailand. the care given was far better than what they could get back in the west. This lady stayed in the hospital until the Gentleman passed away. The care given here is far more personal than the care given in the old folks homes back in the west.

To the Thai's it is not just a business they care for the people.

Out of these 3 examples you can judge the whole elderly care system in the west ?its just a new emerging bussines in Thailand dont be silly.

Don't be silly yourself.

They have been taking care of the elderly here for centuries.

the one case here I cited had the man in the hospital and the women staying in the room with him, Have you ever been in an IC unit room. Jammed with equipment and hardly any room for moving around. Yet she stayed in it night and day in a chair with no outside entertainment. All she could do was adjust his pillow and blankets. As I said the people here care it is not just a business. Many people come to Thailand for care. Because a care giver here really cares It is not just a job to them

Edited January 7, 2014 by hellodolly

[bdw]

Wow, I would be very appreciative if my children were to ship me off to the LOS for the final years.

[geriatrickid]

I have been in two different places in Canada where the people are sent to die. Pathetic. One had a patient strapped to a potty chair. The care they were receiving was abysmal. People in their pajamas and a robe just sitting in their wheel chair in the hall ways looking off into nowhere.

I have had the privilege of seeing the care of an elderly gentleman here in Thailand. the care given was far better than what they could get back in the west. This lady stayed in the hospital until the Gentleman passed away. The care given here is far more personal than the care given in the old folks homes back in the west.

To the Thai's it is not just a business they care for the people.

A fairy tale that does not reflect the demographics of Thailand. The HSRI has been responsible for setting the agenda for elder care since 1992.

It is now in stage 5 of its plan HSRI’s new strategies focus on equitable and sustainable health system through an establishment of research alliances and collaboration with multisectoral partners to facilitate policy action through research

Unfortunately, for those who are of limited means it is a bleak end of life filled with the abuse, neglect and physical injury seen in the west. Do you know how many specialized geriatric health care providers there are in Thailand? You can count them on one hand. Alzheimer's is a difficult disease and has many stages and variations. A GP is not the most appropriate person to deal with it. Do you know what the primary treatment is? Sedatives. There are no art therapy classes, no swimming, no exercise or music classes as one sees in western or Japanese/Taiwan/Singapore elder care facilities.

Thailand is a nation comprised of haves and have nots. For the haves who can afford to pay for an attendant, then yes your story can and does happen. Much of the country is comprised of have nots who do not have the financial means to pay for a retirement home let alone the special care many elderly patients need. Thai families are smaller now and the kids are often scattered with one child often shouldering the burden of care. In many cases, the elderly have no one. This has been documented in scholarly articles, and social advocates have been warning the government for at least a decade of the issue. The sense of community is no longer there. In the good old days, neighbours would help, but not anymore.

Have a walk around and ask yourself why don't you see as many elderly people out and about, active as one might see in Japan or Germany. Yes, part of the reason is that the elderly are not as big a demographic as in those countries, but one of the main reasons is that elderly Thais are virtual prisoners of their homes once they reach a point where their limbs are weak or their eyesight is poor. Thailand is not a place to be if you need a wheelchair, or a cane or help getting up a curb. The rural working poor age quickly here. My best friend's father is 57 and he looks 77. The man spent 50 years in the rice fields and it shows. He'll most likely be dead by 65.

It is not unusual for children with behavioural problems or the elderly with dementia to be locked or tied up in a Thai home. Usually, strong sedatives are handed out. . It sounds cruel, but in a country where there are few if any elder care homes and the caregiver is often the sole person, it is the only option .You don't see it, but its out there. The reality too is that old people are often denied medication or have a fatalistic approach to illness because they are uneducated. It is a totally different approach to what you are used to. In Thailand, an elderly person especially a foreigner, without an advocate is more likely to be abused or neglected. Staff at elder cares the world over take advantage of the elderly, borrowing money or taking possessions. The advocate, whether it is a spouse, or a child is there to see that the patient isn't exploited and is fed and not left to sit in feces. In Thailand, like the west, often the elderly have no advocate to protect them from the abuse.

[NancyL]

This article, and others, is part of a well-orchestrated publicity campaign to build awareness and the customer base for at least one new facility (and perhaps others) being built in Chiang Mai. There's nothing the matter with that -- but I'm amazed that people are sending me essentially the same article from sources as far away as Toledo, Ohio!

Wym raises some excellent points in Post #17 -- these facilities could be an excellent alternative, with the lower labor costs and warmer climate. I could see a very good fit for active people with dementia -- those who wander, often confounding caregivers in their home countries. The best treatment for them is physical exercise -- letting them walk, swim and wear off their energy in positive ways. That's much cheaper to do in Thailand with low labor costs for one-on-one supervision and good opportunity for outdoor activities.

I do question what happens to these folks when they need medical care. Don't they come from countries with nationalized health care, at least for the elderly? They won't receive that here and they're subject to the same health problems as people without dementia -- stroke, heart attacks, cancer. Who will serve as their medical advocates when they go to hospital? Not the low-cost Thai caregivers. Surely these facilities must employ nurses and even doctors who are native speakers of their residents languages.

And speaking of languages -- it's important for people with dementia to be surrounded with people speaking their native language. That helps them to keep a grasp on reality longer. I doubt these facilities are hiring caregivers who are anywhere close to fluent in the native languages of the residents and I suspect the TVs and radios at the facilities are often tuned to Thai stations when the management isn't around to insure that the residents are seeing programming in their native languages.

If well executed, these places could be excellent. If not, well, they're just a low-cost way (and possibly cruel way) to hide Mamma out-of-sight and get her really far away.

Edited January 7, 2014 by NancyL

[NancyL]

It is not unusual for children with behavioural problems or the elderly with dementia to be locked or tied up in a Thai home. Usually, strong sedatives are handed out. . It sounds cruel, but in a country where there are few if any elder care homes and the caregiver is often the sole person, it is the only option .You don't see it, but its out there. The reality too is that old people are often denied medication or have a fatalistic approach to illness because they are uneducated. It is a totally different approach to what you are used to. In Thailand, an elderly person especially a foreigner, without an advocate is more likely to be abused or neglected. Staff at elder cares the world over take advantage of the elderly, borrowing money or taking possessions. The advocate, whether it is a spouse, or a child is there to see that the patient isn't exploited and is fed and not left to sit in feces. In Thailand, like the west, often the elderly have no advocate to protect them from the abuse.

Excellent point. It's a little beyond the scope of this thread. But this is a point that older western men should realize as they marry that sweet young, uneducated gal who is 1/3 their age, with plans of moving to her village in Isaan, building a house, taking care of her and herfamily and, in exchange, she and her family will take care of him for the rest of his life. That is not a good plan for his senior years, because the needs of the elderly, especially the frail elderly with dementia outstrip the care capabilities of uneducated, rural families -- even those with good intentions.

[wamberal]

It used to be common practice for elderly parents to live with the family of one of their children. Nowadays, elderly parents are shunted off to be cared for by strangers.

That being the case, why does it matter which strangers are taking care of them? Yes, there are financial implications, and there might be some problems with visitation. But if people do not want to take personal care of their aging parents, that is the end of the story, I reckon.

[GuestHouse]

I believe the latest data in the UK suggests that the oft quoted demise of the extended family is actually in reverse.

This does not surprise me, I can think of a couple of dozen families back home who have an aged parent/grandparent living with them while almost every person I know back home has strong connections to their parents, who while old and living alone regard their independence as a positive part of their life.

I think we need to consider this, rather than trotting out the statement 'old people are dumped in old age homes to be ignored or taken care of by strangers'.

I believe the truth is a lot more complex than this and that the extent of family integration, certainly in the UK, is far more so than we are often lead to believe.

Yes there are old people dumped in homes in the west - you hear about this because its something the press and media discusses.

But does anyone here have any idea of the reality of abuse and/or inability to care for old people here in Thailand?

Do not get fooled by the myth that Thai people love and care for old people - Some do, some do not.

But that is not the issue - The issue is, that caring for old people suffering the serious diseases of old age is a lot more than having a pretty nurse who smiles nicely.

[thailiketoo]

Scandal of neglect in Britain's care homes: NHS survey of 63,000 elderly residents reveals one in three are living in fear of abuse

• Charities claim the Government survey shows 'massive crisis' in the system
• The NHS survey found that half of patients are not kept clean
• 63,000 people were surveyed and 1 in 10 don't get enough to eat or drink

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257703/Scandal-neglect-Britains-care-homes-NHS-survey-63-000-elderly-residents-reveals-living-fear-abuse.html#ixzz2pga2m4jd

Article published Jan. of 2013

[GuestHouse]

Scandal of neglect in Britain's care homes: NHS survey of 63,000 elderly residents reveals one in three are living in fear of abuse

• Charities claim the Government survey shows 'massive crisis' in the system
• The NHS survey found that half of patients are not kept clean
• 63,000 people were surveyed and 1 in 10 don't get enough to eat or drink

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257703/Scandal-neglect-Britains-care-homes-NHS-survey-63-000-elderly-residents-reveals-living-fear-abuse.html#ixzz2pga2m4jd

Article published Jan. of 2013

Do you have any data on care of the elderly in Thailand?

[thailiketoo]

About 7.4% of Americans aged 75 and older lived in nursing homes in 2006, compared with 8.1% in 2000 and 10.2% in 1990.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2007-09-27-nursing-homes_N.htm

I looked for UK statistics but could not find. I would assume the same downward trend.

[GuestHouse]

About 7.4% of Americans aged 75 and older lived in nursing homes in 2006, compared with 8.1% in 2000 and 10.2% in 1990.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2007-09-27-nursing-homes_N.htm

I looked for UK statistics but could not find. I would assume the same downward trend.

Correct, the reported demise of the western family is a myth.

[thailiketoo]

Scandal of neglect in Britain's care homes: NHS survey of 63,000 elderly residents reveals one in three are living in fear of abuse

• Charities claim the Government survey shows 'massive crisis' in the system
• The NHS survey found that half of patients are not kept clean
• 63,000 people were surveyed and 1 in 10 don't get enough to eat or drink

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257703/Scandal-neglect-Britains-care-homes-NHS-survey-63-000-elderly-residents-reveals-living-fear-abuse.html#ixzz2pga2m4jd

Article published Jan. of 2013

Do you have any data on care of the elderly in Thailand?

A little but no statistics. My wife is concerned because we don't have children. I would ask her but we get into a very long discussion if I mention it. She has some deal where she pays insurance now for long term care when she is old.

[GuestHouse]

One of the issues in Thailand is the lack of trust law and the lack of legal means to 'reliably' control the affairs of people who are unable to act for themselves.

A foreigner who has no family connection in Thailand, no family to take care of his/her affairs, is open to abuse by others if, for example they can no longer use their own banking facilities.

On the flip side, we know from TVF posts that many expats follow the advice 'keep all your assets out of Thailand under your own control' - What then if the expat can no longer actively control those assets? or when death finally catches up?. This becomes a real problem when there are dependents to take care of.

Its a mine field and it is a problem simmering under the surface that will inevitably catch a percentage of foreigners and their families.

Anyone intending to retire and spend the final years of their life in Thailand ought give these matters serious thought.

If you know that the reason you are receiving attention you could only dream of back home is your money (ie you have not formed or have no intention of forming a meaningful mutual care and mutual trust based relationship in Thailand) then you ought to think about these matters very very seriously.