Teacher with a degree vs a teacher without a degree

[BenCrew]

'There's no substitute for experience', I'm sure you've all heard, and TEFL in Thailand is a prime example.

[Showbags]

I had to prove a 4 year degree just to get the work permit....I started with 40 students 12 to 13 year old in my first class...was hard at first but made it threw 5 years.....I now teach at a University Love it

So you threw 5 years away you are sayin ????

[DGIE]

A teacher with a degree of Education may have the technique on how to handle/manage a large number of students in a class and has the expertise in executing her lesson as her education really deals with this matter.

A teacher with no degree works at her best as her thanks to have the job and to retain it.

A teacher with a degree but in Hotel and Tourism Management or Veterinary may have no edge but just be equal to try hard as that of number 2.

Experience in teaching Thai students is an edge. Thai students are far different from other countries’ students. Any new teacher whether with or without degree is surely equally struggling in her/his first day of teaching in Thailand.

Class management and motivation are what critical here.

[Scott]

I currently have a supervisory role with about 250 foreign teachers. I have done this for many, many years and have been involved in interviewing and hiring teachers for several schools. I can't say anything that is definitive, but there is a strong correlation with certain groups. Here's how I would rank them from most preferable to the least preferred.

1. A teacher with a degree in education. We don't get a lot of those, at least not western ones, but the ones we've had are excellent. It's their chosen profession, and they require little supervision. Over the years, I've only had to fire one -- and he seemed to be a little bit too interested in the young boys.

2. A teacher with a Bachelor's Degree in any subject. They have been through a learning process and they have an understanding of the learning process, motivation and other factors. A lot of variables come in to play with this group. Some need a fair amount of supervision and help. They are not well grounded in the classroom. If they are teaching oldr kids and are teaching in the subject they have a degree, they tend to do well.

3. A teacher with no degree but with a TEFL. These are teachers who can usually function quite well in the classroom. There may be certain things lacking, but they can be turned lose with a minimum of supervision and function. I've had a few that took a TEFL and were absolutely fantastic, they took to teaching like a Born Again Christian takes to Jesus.

4 A teacher without a degree and no TEFL. Difficult to predict how they will do. Some good, some not so good.

Experience is a ++ to each of the categories and in 3 and 4 it makes a world of difference.

[amse]

legally if you have no degree you can't be a teacher above the kindergarten grades, if you have a fake degree you also need a fake letter from the university recorder stamped with the university logo, plus the original academic record. All these available on line, usually the more you pay the better the documants. Out in the sticks it would be easier to get a teaching job, but of course with much less salary. The more prior experience you have the higher salary you can ask for, plus as many real recommendation letters as possible. MOE regulations have changed alot within the past 10 years, so it's more difficult to slide under the wire in the bigger cities.

[inutil]

All it ever takes is that one class where you have ten minutes to kill and NOTHING AT ALL to kill it with to shame anyone (degree or no degree) into doing a MUCH better job next time (or quitting forever - whatever floats your boat). Too many variables. But on the wider subject, the point stands:

No degree versus degree doesnt matter a jot! One lesson and youll both discover where you stand.

Degree in teaching a second language versus degree in anything not related to the subject will have a reasonable impact in both your motivation as well as your ability to explicate and make sense of issues a non-degree holder in that subject might overlook as irrelevant. You might also be able to make some magic out of it. If theres nothing else in the universe, the one thing i love "proving" to wide eyed students that 1 does not equal 1.

x = 0.9999999999999 (recurring)

10x = 9.999999999999 (recurring)

10x-x = 9.9999999999 (rec) - 0.9999999999 (rec).

9x = 9

x = 1.

1=0.999999999999999

1 does not equal 1.

its a dumb trick and anyone who studies math will immediately guffaw. But tell that to a 12-14 year old kid with a moderate interest in math and watch their heads explode. The great thing as well is you never have to explain that its just a trick based on what we mean LINGUISTICALLY by recurring and infinity. You can leave that to their math teacher (also ax/by is fun - if a=4, x=3, b=3, and y=2, the answer isnt 2 (12/6). Its 8 [(12/3)2]. Its not hard, its just the order of operations, but if you like the subject, you can find those things that engage your students and will inspire them. If youve no love for the subject, youll struggle to be honest).

PGCE versus no pgce will be huge of course since its all practical, observed teaching practices and lesson planning from professionals. Its actual proper training. Cant really beat that, can you?

Tefl versus no tefl (and no experience either side) will be much better on the tefl side. Even if you only do 1 observation class, its still going to get you over that HORRIBLE first class where you will be crapping your pants, and where you will screw up your timings. It wont make you an amazing teacher, even if the feedback is outstanding, but it will at least get you past the first and rather high hurdle of becoming a teacher - that first jump into the deep end.

Celta versus tefl is one for the nerds. Im going with celta though because any idiot can certify you as tefl certified.

And First language (any old degree) versus second language (with the right qualifications/scores) im siding with the second language instructor anywhere where teaching of grammar and structure is paramount. However, anywhere where SPOKEN fluency, creativity, modeling and expression are paramount, it flips. Dunno, edge this one to the second language certified dude (from outside the host country) over the native uncertified and unqualified teacher if only because the certified dude has proved theyre interested, enthused and engaged with learning english as a second language. The other one is untested. Might be amazing, might be crappy. Total crap shoot.

There we go. World done. Bang to rights! Im off for a well earned sleep!

[Neeranam]

i dont understand what point the OP is making, if someone has a degree or not is irrelevant in respect of someone's classroom management skills.

if you have a PGCE, CELTA or other teaching qualification you will have studied classroom management and therefore be better equipped to manage a class of students.

its like saying 'i'd like to see how someone with a degree would get on being a dentist/doctor/surveyor'

I don't think being a TEFL teacher is anything like being a doctor or dentist. These are skilled careers whereas a TEFL teacher is a vocation.

I taught as a TEFL teacher for 13 years in various establishments in Thailand and was surprised I lasted so long. The best teachers I observed were a previous car mechanic, a football hooligan, and a guy who left school at 14. Of course a degree won't help with a class of Thai kids. I taught classes of 50+ back in the day with no air con and no assistant but was trained well how to handle it.

Many of the best qualified teachers are the worst - even one guy who had written books and had a PHD was useless in the class. Thais don't care about degrees and they only ask because of the rules. The most important factors are age, looks and subservience. If you are more qualified than the boss, you've little hope of lasting. If you have a beard, no chance of getting hired for a decent gig.

Two of the most famous 'farang' teachers in Thailand don't even have a degree.

[bangkapi]

English teachers are a dime a dozen and a degree is not required to be good at it.

Degree or not, schools prefer to hire "English Teachers" who need the salary to survive.

[puukao]

I'll go slightly off-tangent on this one. Appearance is key, and confidence certainly helps. A good-looking woman will get my attention, at first, and if she has confidence while speaking I will be put at ease. So, you must first like the teacher. Then worry about their education. If they are a good speaker, they can sell (re: convince) students that their method is the best. Would they rather listen to some famous actor or a clown with a backpack? Paying attention is likely half the game when learning a language. TESOL was ridiculously easy, and I never used it. 30k isn't enough to motivate me to forgo other opportunities.

[zeichen]

I do agree that experience is a very important factor and usually the most crucial with the proviso that they were exposed to professional development. Some teachers just show up and do the same old tired routines year after year. They might have learned some classroom management techniques but without proper assessment, evaluation and professional development they tend not to grow as much.

I have worked in the industry for over 15 years in multiple countries in Asia. One thing is for certain that there are more people in Thailand without a degree teaching than any other Asian country. I will not say that those without a degree cannot teach but chances are they never development their scholastic skills. Those that haven't written an essay, taken a test, learned study skills or realize how their own language works, might not have a lot to offer. Those that only teach conversation would probably be fine. I often meet those that talk about word choice in absolutes though which is difficult unless you have been exposed to many different NES accents, cultures, and manners.

Those that mention about unrelated degrees seem to forget that an education is not just job training. Those with unrelated degrees can learn the material, have developed their cognitive abilities, reading skills, and are typcially better at evaluating the validity of content. They will tend to reach a higher level and aptitude after experience.

There are exceptions of course. But I personally would rather my children learn any subject from someone with a degree especially if they are educated (not all people with degrees are educated) than a retired soldier/carpenter/laborer.

"Unfortunately singing and dancing doesn't do much for the motivated and/or gifted student: dumbing down is never a good thing."

So varrying a lesson to include different areas of motivation and encorporate different learning abilities is considered "dumbing it down"

I don't believe that education is the limiting factor though. I guess the real distinction for me would be motivation. If someone is looking for a gap year or to extend their holiday, have drug/alcohol problems might have extra issues.

[Colabamumbai]

Both would such if they have never taught a class before.

The content is another issue. Put a professor fresh off the boat in front of 40 Thai kids and he'll be running for the door at the end of the lesson.

Would agree with your statement, first sentence. Native English speaker, I have taught with a diploma and now with a degree. I tend to teach the same, but of course subject matter differs between grades both in primary, secondary and now in college.

I never taught school children before coming to Thailand, but taught people that I recruited and trained for larger businesses, corporations as a personnel manager, for many years.

I enjoy helping people to attain success in their lives, monetary and otherwise. I tend to teach as much about life as I do the subject matter.

The best thanks I ever got was 6 years later I was stopped in the street in my country and thanked for changing a mans life, with both his family relationship and work relationship and income. I did not even recognize the fellow. It brought me to tears.

[A1Str8]

Same same but different.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bundoi]

I've uploaded a Unesco brochure about teaching large classes, printed out of their Bkk office in 2006.

Hope some people here find it useful,

cheers.

teaching large classes.PDF

[Scott]

Criticizing grammar/spelling is not permitted unless that is what the thread is about. This thread is not. One post has been deleted. Please read the topic and respond to it.

[asiaexpat]

We tend to use the term "Teacher" for any person that enters a classroom. While it simplifies discussion it can lead to misunderstanding the real issue. Many persons in the classroom are only there to provide students the opportunity to hear and talk with a native speaker of a particular language. I classify these as conversational assistants and they have been of great value to many students, with degree or without. Then there are the instructors: following prescribed lesson plans and answering questions. Instructors fill the need when basic skills need to be learned, such as initial adult classes in english. Those with a Degree in about any subject usually have the skills to handle this task. Teachers are the people that have dedicated themselves to the job of developing the future society and therefore obtained formal education and training in the skills that are necessary to accomplish this task- a degree in education in addition to specific subjects. Thailand has a need for all these people, most educational institutions in Thailand just lack the understanding of when and where to place each of these types of "Teachers".

[jerry1989]

i would teach them in a military way but with humor of course....attention! left face! right face! and lot more stuff jus to awaken their senses

[OumarhindaOunsingha]

What is education? What is good teaching?

This all depends on a trillion different factors, of which many not really being measurable. I have studied philosophy at one university - craving 80 hours of work per week and still didn't pass half the exams. Very cruel teachers. I have studied music too, used max. 25 hours a week and pretty easily passed everything, got A in most. And how to compare a degree from rajabat university a/b/c with a degree from Oxford? So many factors are involved, here.

And how about the teacher? His nature, natural talent for teaching? His life situation, his bad and good habits, his personality, his liking of Thai culture and Thai people, etc.

Does a university degree make you a better English teacher in a Thai government school? In most cases: no. Does a teaching degree for elementary school pupils in English make you a better teacher? Well, most likely the training has given you something. But...so many factors involved...

Not much need to discuss it, really. Doesn't make sense, much.

[zeichen]

"His nature, natural talent for teaching? His life situation, his bad and good habits, his personality, his liking of Thai culture and Thai people, etc."

since when are teachers just male?

If a getting an education didn't make one person better, then why would people want to become teachers helping students become better?

[anniethailand]

I had to prove a 4 year degree just to get the work permit....I started with 40 students 12 to 13 year old in my first class...was hard at first but made it threw 5 years.....I now teach at a University Love it

That is cools for your experience

Actually, I am looking for Part-time English teacher in Bangkok. I wanted anyone who is willing to teach and enjoy time with the gang of the teeanger. Most of the times are outdoor classroom. Everybody would have fun for activity.

Part-time job with good money and know more about thai culture.

If you are interested , pls contact me *Email edited out* or call me 0863216782. I am waiting for your call.

Thank you

Annie

Edited January 22, 2014 by Scott
Email edited out

[Somtamnication]

ANNIE. Why do you have to post this in every damn topic?

[Scott]

Email addresses are not allowed on the open forum. Please use the PM function.

[trav111]

I think the question of whether a Thai co-teacher is required depends on the objective of the particular class (for example, conversation or grammar, reading, writing, listening or speaking), and the level of fluency the NES has in Thai.

If the class is for M5 or M6 who are preparing for university, then clearly a university background is going to be a great help to the NES.

But from the point of view of classroom management, for a class that size experience is going to be more important than a degree any day.

There is no need to have any experience in Thai. You must only use English in the classroom. Some school directors are strict about this.

I find this to be a strange comment, I am embarking on the teaching profession, I have not started yet, but I am having a look around at what everyone is talking about.

The reason I find this strange is because, if for example a chinese person came to teach me chinese and only spoke chinese with no translation, I think the chances of picking the language up would be about 0%.

[NoshowJones]

I think the question of whether a Thai co-teacher is required depends on the objective of the particular class (for example, conversation or grammar, reading, writing, listening or speaking), and the level of fluency the NES has in Thai.

If the class is for M5 or M6 who are preparing for university, then clearly a university background is going to be a great help to the NES.

But from the point of view of classroom management, for a class that size experience is going to be more important than a degree any day.

There is no need to have any experience in Thai. You must only use English in the classroom. Some school directors are strict about this.

I find this to be a strange comment, I am embarking on the teaching profession, I have not started yet, but I am having a look around at what everyone is talking about.

The reason I find this strange is because, if for example a chinese person came to teach me chinese and only spoke chinese with no translation, I think the chances of picking the language up would be about 0%.

If you are going to teach in a Thai school, try using Thai and see what happens. You have not done a TEFL course, have you?

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

This thread is about teaching. Not about practicing medicine or engineering or any of a number of other fields.

[Phatcharanan]

I find this to be a strange comment, I am embarking on the teaching profession, I have not started yet, but I am having a look around at what everyone is talking about.

The reason I find this strange is because, if for example a chinese person came to teach me chinese and only spoke chinese with no translation, I think the chances of picking the language up would be about 0%.

Gosh........I wonder how on earth very young children learn their mother tomgue.

[chonabot]

I find this to be a strange comment, I am embarking on the teaching profession, I have not started yet, but I am having a look around at what everyone is talking about.

The reason I find this strange is because, if for example a chinese person came to teach me chinese and only spoke chinese with no translation, I think the chances of picking the language up would be about 0%.

Gosh........I wonder how on earth very young children learn their mother tomgue.

Thai babies are born with a full vocabulary...

[tingtong]

I think the question of whether a Thai co-teacher is required depends on the objective of the particular class (for example, conversation or grammar, reading, writing, listening or speaking), and the level of fluency the NES has in Thai.

If the class is for M5 or M6 who are preparing for university, then clearly a university background is going to be a great help to the NES.

But from the point of view of classroom management, for a class that size experience is going to be more important than a degree any day.

There is no need to have any experience in Thai. You must only use English in the classroom. Some school directors are strict about this.

I find this to be a strange comment, I am embarking on the teaching profession, I have not started yet, but I am having a look around at what everyone is talking about.

The reason I find this strange is because, if for example a chinese person came to teach me chinese and only spoke chinese with no translation, I think the chances of picking the language up would be about 0%.

If you are going to teach in a Thai school, try using Thai and see what happens. You have not done a TEFL course, have you?

I believe that a few Thai words are rather helpful, especially if the kids doesnt speak/read/write much ( usually the case, even after X years learning).

That few words are enough to make sure they get what you want to tell them faster, as well saves lots of time.

Everyone's experience differs, but I have rather positive feedback using some Thai.

[NoshowJones]

I have used some Thai too, but only when giving commands. Don't forget, these students are getting English for maybe twelve years, and the ones who want to learn (mainly girls) will leave school with a good understanding of English vocabulary and conversation. There is no need to use Thai when teaching, but yes, I agree it can help occasionally.

[trav111]

I think the question of whether a Thai co-teacher is required depends on the objective of the particular class (for example, conversation or grammar, reading, writing, listening or speaking), and the level of fluency the NES has in Thai.

If the class is for M5 or M6 who are preparing for university, then clearly a university background is going to be a great help to the NES.

But from the point of view of classroom management, for a class that size experience is going to be more important than a degree any day.

There is no need to have any experience in Thai. You must only use English in the classroom. Some school directors are strict about this.

I find this to be a strange comment, I am embarking on the teaching profession, I have not started yet, but I am having a look around at what everyone is talking about.

The reason I find this strange is because, if for example a chinese person came to teach me chinese and only spoke chinese with no translation, I think the chances of picking the language up would be about 0%.

If you are going to teach in a Thai school, try using Thai and see what happens. You have not done a TEFL course, have you?

I stand corrected,

I don't have a TEFL, but I have watched many videos of TEFL teachers online and Genki English, who do a good job and I will use I lot of the examples I have seen, i.e. playing games, flashcards and practical activities.

But still to state that it should be strictly English, I don't agree with, when I teach private lessons to high school students, I always use Thai to help, not only speaking thai but writing thai as-well, also with certain words when pronunciation is not quite right I can use the thai alphabet to help them pronounce the word better

[NoshowJones]

Trav11. Do you know that most Thai language schools (whose teachers can all speak English) do not allow their teachers to use English when teaching? This is definitely wrong, their students want to learn to speak good Thai over maybe 7 or 8 months, where (with the exception of your students as they are taking private lessons) in Thai schools they are building up their English vocabulary and conversation, over several years.

I think you are right to use Thai when teaching your private high school students.