History shows a way out of the Thai conflict

[newcomer71]

Respect forum rules and go on the right thread, I will be glad to reply you...

and where is the right thread?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/696466-video-special-bangkok-shutdown-protesters-fill-streets-of-thai-capital

[dukebowling]

Very biased article. Randomly states documented crimes. Does not include actual historical data.

Are there any objective opinions left?

You've got to be kidding me. Documented crimes and historical data are listed for many crimes. No opinions, just the facts. Probably not all the crimes are listed, but for sure the major ones.

What crimes? There is no evidence of any illegal acts. Actually the only potential illegal act I can see is one that he was aquited of.

Then Google is your friend. These cases are well documented.

I'm well versed on all the cases. No evidence, starting with the conviction on the auction of public land. Not a binding piece of incriminating evidence there.

[MaxLee]

"History shows way out of Thai conflict"

Yes,... drop an atomic bomb on Thailand and Dubai,... case closed.

[Mackie]

I'm well versed on all the cases. No evidence, starting with the conviction on the auction of public land. Not a binding piece of incriminating evidence there.

That's only what you think that your are well versed on all the cases. For goodness sake, even Thaksin's lawyers got caught red handed trying to bribe judges and you still defend indefensible. Get a grip, will you?

[peecee]

from the article:

"Thaksin's approach to rule, so alien to Thai cultural values, arouses the same level and type of animosity in the minds of his opponents as does an abortion clinic in the minds of pro-lifers in the United States."

Yes, Thaksin's approach to rule arouses a lot of animosity amongst the Bangkok elite as it is the first successful political movement in Thailand that relies on genuine mass support, with genuine policies for the benefit of large parts of the population and not just a narrow Bangkok elite.

The Bangkok elite are not used to this sort of democracy which forces them to recognise their upcountry countrymen as equals to themselves. It is totally against their "cultural values" and ingrained perception of their own superiority.

This is what lies at the heart of the current problems in Thailand - the inability of a conservative elite in Thailand to adjust to modern day democracy. And they will not succeed in turning back the clock as Thailand has changed too much. Thailand outside of Bangkok has changed too much.

The author of this article seems to think Thailand can return to some "Golden Age" where members of the Thai elite took turns to share in the spoils of state without having to care about the creation of policies that are popular with the great mass of people.

Those days are over and as the author recognises in his last few paragraphs the best thing the Thai elite could do is to begin to adapt to modern day democracy by coming up with new policies of their own which will be popular with a broad section of society.

I agree that the so called "Thai Elite" are the ones who have to change and accept that the democratic future of Thailand is not how they see it. They were able to force a King into exile and dispose of another in order to impose thier autocratic rule on the people, coup after coup followed but the Thai Elite, through their control within the military and judiciary, always held sway over the people. Mr Shinawatra changed all that. He may be vain, corrupt and vile to many but the common folk took to him and his populist policies; so the Thai Elite will now have to come up with something that the people will find tempting enough to switch their allegiances. It will no longer wash with most people that another coupe is all that's required in order to install another puppet Prime Minister and revert Thailand back to the status quo.

If the Thai Elite cannot see this then I'm afraid the future will be civil war.

[lovetotravel]

You've got to be kidding me. Documented crimes and historical data are listed for many crimes. No opinions, just the facts. Probably not all the crimes are listed, but for sure the major ones.

What crimes? There is no evidence of any illegal acts. Actually the only potential illegal act I can see is one that he was aquited of.

Then Google is your friend. These cases are well documented.

I'm well versed on all the cases. No evidence, starting with the conviction on the auction of public land. Not a binding piece of incriminating evidence there.

In your humble opinion. In many other opinions, including those of the Thai court, there was plenty of evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/22/world/asia/22thai.html?_r=0

I'm "assuming" the Thai courts had more information than we have. But probably the same bias.

[dukebowling]

I'm well versed on all the cases. No evidence, starting with the conviction on the auction of public land. Not a binding piece of incriminating evidence there.

That's only what you think that your are well versed on all the cases. For goodness sake, even Thaksin's lawyers got caught red handed trying to bribe judges and you still defend indefensible. Get a grip, will you?

The three lawyers were released from Prison, when the Police announced that there was not enough evidence to proceed with a criminal prosecution.

Edited January 15, 2014 by dukebowling

[dukebowling]

In your humble opinion. In many other opinions, including those of the Thai court, there was plenty of evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/22/world/asia/22thai.html?_r=0

I'm "assuming" the Thai courts had more information than we have. But probably the same bias.

Yes, never assume…because you will make an a…you know the rest. From the article itself, "details of the case obscure to many Thais". The non transparency is intentional because there was not enough evidence. If there was good evidence, it would have been broadcasted in triplicate, bolded and published as a best seller.

Why would they let Thaksin's wife keep the land?

One of the controversial aspects of the case was the fact that the FIDF did not want to file a charge against Thaksin and his wife, reasoning that they found the deal transparent, and the price fair. By their own admission, they could not find any way in which the FIDF had been damaged, and finally, only after threats of criminal action against Dr.Tarisa-Watanagase,the head of the Bank of Thailand, did they consent to file the complaint.

Corruption lies in the courts. This is where to start the investigation because these justices feel they are above the law.

Edited January 15, 2014 by dukebowling

[Mackie]

I'm well versed on all the cases. No evidence, starting with the conviction on the auction of public land. Not a binding piece of incriminating evidence there.

That's only what you think that your are well versed on all the cases. For goodness sake, even Thaksin's lawyers got caught red handed trying to bribe judges and you still defend indefensible. Get a grip, will you?

The three lawyers were released from Prison, when the Police announced that there was not enough evidence to proceed with a criminal prosecution.

It appears that your really have a problem with understanding English. No offence meant. They served 6 months in jail. The Supreme court found them guilty. I rest my case.

Bribe case tarnishes Thai ex-PM

By Jonathan Head

BBC News, Bangkok

The case could jeopardise Mr Thaksin's chances of a political comeback

{C} {C}

Three lawyers representing the former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra have been sentenced to six months in jail for trying to bribe court judges.

The cash was delivered to the court hidden in a cake box.

The Thai media are calling it "Pastrygate" - and it has left Mr Thaksin with plenty of egg on his face.

Mr Thaksin, who was ousted by a military coup, returned from exile this year, but still faces several charges of abuse of power and corruption. {C}

Two weeks ago, two lawyers walked into the Supreme Court, which is hearing a high-profile case against Mr Thaksin and his wife, and left a bag with court officials, telling them to enjoy its contents.

Inside was a cake-box - but instead of a cake, there were bundles of cash, worth around $60,000 (£30,500).

Suspicion immediately fell on Mr Thaksin's lawyers - but they insisted such a crude attempt at bribery was beneath them. More likely, they said, it was intended to discredit Mr Thaksin.

But, after a two-week investigation, the Supreme Court has found otherwise - it has sentenced the former prime minister's chief lawyer and two assistants to six months in jail for contempt of court.

Which leaves Mr Thaksin with a weakened defence team and a tarnished image.

Comeback in question

The case against him is pivotal to his future.

It concerns an alleged illegal land purchase by his wife while he was in office. If found guilty they could both be jailed, and his prospects for a political comeback would look dim.

The government, now led by his allies, has tried to amend the new constitution, in the hope of weakening the momentum behind the cases against Mr Thaksin - but has been forced to back down.

The new charter, which was drafted by the military last year, gives much greater power to Thailand's top courts - leading some Thais to argue that the judiciary now risks being embroiled in the long-running political contest between Mr Thaksin and his opponents.

[pookiki]

OK, I read the article and the four pages of posts. The article was in interesting read as well as many of the posts that provided a reasoned analysis and support as well as criticism. Here are two things that I think are missing from the article that have influenced a dramatic change in Thai society as well as every society around the world - technology and consumer/global capitalism. The article fails dramatic changes in the demographics in Thai society given the dynamics associated with these issues. Thailand is making a transition to democratic pluralism and the values inherent in a pluralist society really chafes those in the upper crust of society. It is also interesting to note that the OP asserts that there is an acceptable level of plundering in Thailand that is tolerated. I have no reason to doubt that but it does not fit with a democracy based on pluralism, equality, and a meaningful rule of law. To keep this brief, I would have also appreciated the OP's analysis of the military imposed Constitution in 2006 and why the changes were made and who did the changes benefit. One last issue, the OP does not analyze the role of the military in the country's history as well. If Thailand is to make a true transition to a democratic state, then the military must yield its power to an elected government. Why hasn't it and why won't it?

[dukebowling]

The three lawyers were released from Prison, when the Police announced that there was not enough evidence to proceed with a criminal prosecution.

It appears that your really have a problem with understanding English. No offence meant. They served 6 months in jail. The Supreme court found them guilty. I rest my case.

Bribe case tarnishes Thai ex-PM

By Jonathan Head

BBC News, Bangkok

The case could jeopardise Mr Thaksin's chances of a political comeback

{C} {C}

Three lawyers representing the former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra have been sentenced to six months in jail for trying to bribe court judges.

The cash was delivered to the court hidden in a cake box.

The Thai media are calling it "Pastrygate" - and it has left Mr Thaksin with plenty of egg on his face.

Mr Thaksin, who was ousted by a military coup, returned from exile this year, but still faces several charges of abuse of power and corruption. {C}

Two weeks ago, two lawyers walked into the Supreme Court, which is hearing a high-profile case against Mr Thaksin and his wife, and left a bag with court officials, telling them to enjoy its contents.

Inside was a cake-box - but instead of a cake, there were bundles of cash, worth around $60,000 (£30,500).

Suspicion immediately fell on Mr Thaksin's lawyers - but they insisted such a crude attempt at bribery was beneath them. More likely, they said, it was intended to discredit Mr Thaksin.

But, after a two-week investigation, the Supreme Court has found otherwise - it has sentenced the former prime minister's chief lawyer and two assistants to six months in jail for contempt of court.

Which leaves Mr Thaksin with a weakened defence team and a tarnished image.

Comeback in question

The case against him is pivotal to his future.

It concerns an alleged illegal land purchase by his wife while he was in office. If found guilty they could both be jailed, and his prospects for a political comeback would look dim.

The government, now led by his allies, has tried to amend the new constitution, in the hope of weakening the momentum behind the cases against Mr Thaksin - but has been forced to back down.

The new charter, which was drafted by the military last year, gives much greater power to Thailand's top courts - leading some Thais to argue that the judiciary now risks being embroiled in the long-running political contest between Mr Thaksin and his opponents.

The six months in jail was not a conviction, it was an order by the court. They were actually released 2 days before the 6 months was up. Why do you think?

Here is the timeline of "Pastry Gate":

June 14th 2008, Preliminary findings by Supreme Court justices Mongkol Thapthiang, Weeraphol Tangsuwan, and Issaret Chairat indicated that the money was intended not for Judges but for the office staff at the Supreme Court. The lawyer was summoned to appear before the investigating panel.

June 17th 2008, It had emerged that Thana Tansiri, a legal representative of Thaksin Shinawatra was being implicated. Thana, when interviewed by the Investigation Panel tried to pass the incident off as a case of his driver giving him the wrong bag, one with 2 million baht as opposed to a similar one with pastries in.

June 19th 2008, Pichit Cheunban testifies to the Supreme Court Panel, denying any knowledge of the incident, although he does concede that he was present at the Supreme Court building that day

June 25th 2008, Three lawyers who represented Thaksin Shinawatra, Pichit Cheunban, Thana Tansiri and Supasri Srisawat were ordered to spend 6 months in Jail for violating court authority. June 26th 2008, The Supreme Court requested that criminal charges be filed against the three lawyers under article 144 of the criminal code (bribery of state officials).This charge carries a maximum of 5 years imprisonment.

June 26th 2008, The Supreme Court requested that criminal charges be filed against the three lawyers under article 144 of the criminal code (bribery of state officials).This charge carries a maximum of 5 years imprisonment.

Then of course nothing is done until 2 days before the 6 month order:

December 23rd 2008, The three lawyers were released from Prison, when the Police announced that there was not enough evidence to proceed with a criminal prosecution. The police decision was made 2 weeks prior to the three lawyer’s release, but the case was handed over to a public prosecutors' team, who have made no announcement, but made no objections to the three being released

What was surprising about this case was that according to a spokesperson of the Supreme Court, once the money was discovered, it was photographed and then returned to the lawyer. It was only after the news was leaked, that the President of the Supreme Court,Wiraj Limwichai ordered a full inquiry.

Again - corruption in the courts...

[citizen33]

‘During the 2010 riots when the Red Shirts were burning buildings in the national capital, this writer was concerned that the Royal Bangkok Sports Club where he runs most days would also be torched. It is the premier symbol of the ruling class - 400 acres of greensward in central Bangkok granted by the king a century ago, at any moment occupied by at most two dozen high-status golfers. At that moment in 2010, it was separated only by a simple fence from the violent Red Shirts rallying in front of the adjacent National Police headquarters. But a member of the RBSC General Committee reassured me: "We've made a deal; they won't come in." And they did not.’

Another thing to notice about this article is how the author positions himself – spatially and socially – in relation to the groups he writes about. We learn that Mr Race is a Harvard-trained political analyst, who - even in the distant past - was able to command an audience with the Head of the ‘Police Immigration Bureau’ (albeit without the desired result). His first-hand account of the 2010 protests is particularly telling: he looks out at the ‘violent Red Shirts’ from behind the fence of one of Bangkok’s more privileged locations, counting on the traditional cultural authority of that institution to keep the dangerous provincials out. Mr Rice’s 45 years in the Kingdom has clearly yielded rich insights into the mindset of the higher echelons of Thai society, and indeed his explanation of the royalist perspective is perhaps the most interesting aspect of the article. We may even conclude that he has learned his lessons all too well, and like the true native sees no contradiction between his claim that the traditional alternating elites ‘follow the Middle Way … when it's time to go, going gracefully’ and the shootings of 1973 and 2010.

But in a deeply polarised society such a clear identification with one side does not seem to me such a good literary tactic; it means that the author loses readers not already on his side even before they get to the end of the article. I came away thinking, yes, Mr Rice is a clever and knowledgeable man, but he still has a lot to learn about parts of Thailand that in cultural and social terms are a million miles from the Royal Bangkok Sports Club.

Edited January 15, 2014 by citizen33

[Crushdepth]

Very biased article. Randomly states documented crimes. Does not include actual historical data.

Are there any objective opinions left?

Not yours, apparently. Did you actually read it?

When you dismiss an article of this quality without offering reason you just expose your own welded-on ideological shortcomings.

[Loptr]

Thailand has always had a way out of these political situations. It's called the big red COUP button. Someone hits it and the military rolls into action to restore order. Same as it's always been.

[dukebowling]

Very biased article. Randomly states documented crimes. Does not include actual historical data.

Are there any objective opinions left?

Not yours, apparently. Did you actually read it?

When you dismiss an article of this quality without offering reason you just expose your own welded-on ideological shortcomings.

Thanks for the personality assessment. Didn't mean for you to take my view so personally.

While the quality of the article you refer to includes quality penmanship, parallel structure, conciseness, sentence variety, correct grammar and effective paragraphing, it is lacking in objectiveness.

True objectiveness is when your opinion is not inserted in the narrative almost every single line. This article is simply propaganda. The best way to prove a point is through fact finding research that culminates to a single conclusion. Opinion based conclusions are made every paragraph starting with the first, unbelievable one, Thaksin is what is preventing a peaceful settlement of the conflict…! Isn't the PDRC and their backers creating the conflict?

[Cricketnut]

Times have changed and so have Thais. Unfortunately with the ever encroaching values of the west streaming into Thailand like never before in history this has changed Buddhism, and even how it is practiced amongst Thais today. Simply put, Thailand and ever so slowly is becoming more and more like the rest of Western nations, insatiable, not just for power,money,fashion, and others but politics as well. Thaksin effectively saw this change coming and acted in much the same way as numerous government Presidents, Premiers and so forth have done the same. Thailand will still be Thailand for some time to city come. A legacy that Thaksin did leave was a resonance with upcountry residents who were much maligned and ignored by previous governments. Hence a large part of the difficulty Thai people are starting to face. Pressures materially from the west and pressures to face the ugly from within.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE 8.2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lovetotravel]

In your humble opinion. In many other opinions, including those of the Thai court, there was plenty of evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/22/world/asia/22thai.html?_r=0

I'm "assuming" the Thai courts had more information than we have. But probably the same bias.

Yes, never assume…because you will make an a…you know the rest. From the article itself, "details of the case obscure to many Thais". The non transparency is intentional because there was not enough evidence. If there was good evidence, it would have been broadcasted in triplicate, bolded and published as a best seller.

Why would they let Thaksin's wife keep the land?

One of the controversial aspects of the case was the fact that the FIDF did not want to file a charge against Thaksin and his wife, reasoning that they found the deal transparent, and the price fair. By their own admission, they could not find any way in which the FIDF had been damaged, and finally, only after threats of criminal action against Dr.Tarisa-Watanagase,the head of the Bank of Thailand, did they consent to file the complaint.

Corruption lies in the courts. This is where to start the investigation because these justices feel they are above the law.

Corruption in the FIDF also. His wife purchased the land for 1/3rd the going price. This is dodgy no matter how you look at it. Officials are not suppose to do deals like this. Especially "sweetheart" deals like this that are not available to the general public.

[oldthaihand99]

What Thailand truly needs is an end to unaccountability of any elite group, and move towards a more true form of democracy where justice prevails over money, power and greed.

What i need is a jeenie who will fulfill my every wish.

But here's what the next 5 decades holds for LOS: same same, but different [names].

Remove corruption? That would be like removing the blood from your body. Won't happen & wouldn't work, anyway.

[harvardsum]

Mr Race, I must take my hat off to you. Yours is PhD material indeed. So now, what is your advice to Yingluck?

I wish to give my 2-cents worth while waiting for your opinion. With her back very much against the wall, assuming she is a woman of substance as she is of beauty, she would now forget about making fast bucks, and focus instead on leaving a shining legacy of hope and dignity among her countrymen. She needs first to win the 2 Feb election democratically (with no money politics), win it hands-down, then push through reforms on several fronts at lightning speed. For there is nothing so powerful as an idea whose hour has come.

(1) Make the distribution of wealth more equitable by taxing the elite, tax luxury consumption, move this money into the rural economy, rural education, rural health, rural expansion. (2) Institute laws to make politics and business mutually exclusive, or transparent to public scrutiny, if necessary compensate businessmen drawn into politics. (3) Institute laws against high level graft and allow the State to pursue claims to the 2nd, 3rd generations, move confiscated money into socio-economic projects to alleviate poverty and end notorious, outcast occupations. (4) Institute laws against money politics in such a way that the guilty will relinquish office and compensate his opponent (the defeated party) and the State. (5) Revamp procedures in the civil service to make them transparent and pro-business, by making instructions bi-lingual: eg Thai and English, offer self-help Internet alternatives. And the list goes on. Finally when all is done, reform the police and military - for a start, pay them top dollars, but hold them accountable to a democratically elected civilian minister. I think Yingluck is at the crossroads. It is amusing that for the first time in Thai political history, thanks to Koon Suthep, a PM can win hands-down without bribing for votes. Yingluck could still make history for herself and become the Soul of her Nation (the modern Joan of Arc less the extermination), or go down as one whom many see as just a lame puppet. I rest my thought.

[tomacht8]

Very good stuff.

You can feel that the author lives a long time in Thailand.

So how about my first contacts with thai politics.

I also have Taksins first time in remembrance.

There was a time in Thailand as one might celebrate around the clock – 24 hours -.

No thought of Thai politics, just enjoyed life.

Then came this bar closing law. was a twist 1am or 2am, but many were pissed.

I now understand why this was done. With this measure Taksin has made many friends in the police.
Each bar which wanted to have a longer opening time, had to pay teamoney until today.

But the party time was over.

Other thing I can remember was shortly after, when we drove with a pickup, with many people on it, at night to the south.
Guess 2 am no gasoline. Taksin had banned to sell at night petrol. Shit.

These were my first contacts with the Thai politics.

In my travel book - Do and do not in Thailand - stood: not talking with Thais about politics.

Still I do not know if it is right or wrong.

Edited January 15, 2014 by tomacht8

[Mark Thaiford]

the difficulty Thai people are starting to face. Pressures materially from the west and pressures to face the ugly from within.

A good observation. The worrying thing is that you see very few Thai intellectuals or opinion-makers who take the view that Thai culture needs to have less hierarchical prejudices and become more egalitarian in their approach to legal and political rights and responsibilities.

Personally, I think it will take decades for Thailand to come to terms with their ugly side. This ugly side mainly consists of Hi-So Thais feeling fully justified in crushing Isarn people "under their shoe" as I have heard it expressed so many times by these Hi-So types without a shame on their face.

[oldthaihand99]

"History shows way out of Thai conflict"

Yes,... drop an atomic bomb on Thailand and Dubai,... case closed.

2. Civil war (e.g. USA, 1800's)

3. Foreign takeover (e.g. Japanese by force in WWII, China)

4. All sides agree to Obama's decisions

5. Coup...(military, legal, "reform" or other)

6. Bubonic plaque

7. End of the world

[Cricketnut]

Mr Race, I must take my hat off to you. Yours is PhD material indeed. So now, what is your advice to Yingluck?

I wish to give my 2-cents worth while waiting for your opinion. With her back very much against the wall, assuming she is a woman of substance as she is of beauty, she would now forget about making fast bucks, and focus instead on leaving a shining legacy of hope and dignity among her countrymen. She needs first to win the 2 Feb election democratically (with no money politics), win it hands-down, then push through reforms on several fronts at lightning speed. For there is nothing so powerful as an idea whose hour has come.

(1) Make the distribution of wealth more equitable by taxing the elite, tax luxury consumption, move this money into the rural economy, rural education, rural health, rural expansion. (2) Institute laws to make politics and business mutually exclusive, or transparent to public scrutiny, if necessary compensate businessmen drawn into politics. (3) Institute laws against high level graft and allow the State to pursue claims to the 2nd, 3rd generations, move confiscated money into socio-economic projects to alleviate poverty and end notorious, outcast occupations. (4) Institute laws against money politics in such a way that the guilty will relinquish office and compensate his opponent (the defeated party) and the State. (5) Revamp procedures in the civil service to make them transparent and pro-business, by making instructions bi-lingual: eg Thai and English, offer self-help Internet alternatives. And the list goes on. Finally when all is done, reform the police and military - for a start, pay them top dollars, but hold them accountable to a democratically elected civilian minister. I think Yingluck is at the crossroads. It is amusing that for the first time in Thai political history, thanks to Koon Suthep, a PM can win hands-down without bribing for votes. Yingluck could still make history for herself and become the Soul of her Nation (the modern Joan of Arc less the extermination), or go down as one whom many see as just a lame puppet. I rest my thought.

Now this was good reading, I wonder if Joan of Arc can get her hands on a viable and workable solution or any party for that matter. Well thought out and expressed.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE 8.2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[oldthaihand99]

Thailand has always had a way out of these political situations. It's called the big red COUP button. Someone hits it and the military rolls into action to restore order. Same as it's always been.

"The reluctance of the military to intervene directly in the present crisis has illustrated the residual strength of the longstanding deal which kept Yingluck in office."

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/14/whats-behind-thai-protests/

"Yingluck hasn’t been Thaksin’s “clone,” as he originally hoped, and there has been ample evidence that she was often able to set her own agenda and to form her own political alliances. In particular, it’s clear that her government couldn’t have lasted nearly 30 months without receiving an informal green light from the traditional establishment. An elite deal was in place between Yingluck, the network and the military to paper over Thailand’s political divides and allow for “business as usual.” This deal partly collapsed as a result of the abortive move to push through amnesty legislation in late 2013 – where Thaksin clearly overplayed his hand – and partly because the Democrat Party and anti-Thaksin forces set out systematically to sabotage the pact."

[JoeThePoster]

History shows a way out of the Thai conflict

Animal Planet shows a shortcut.

[Shaunduhpostman]

Good post on many levels, I appreciate the effort and care that went into writing the OP article. Some insights as well.

However, find the basic thinking at work and conclusions here to be flawed and not presenting a way out for Thailand in the least. The proposal seems to be for more of the same same and not different.

I think too many are and have been a bit too enamored of the lovely display of the grace and genteel mannerisms, as is the author, whereby what is the ugly business of ruling a country is carried out. Thaksin is despised for his brazen disregard for making such requisite and superficial gestures, but at the end of the day this doesn't make him that much worse. I too am seemingly repulsed by his every act and utterance, but being the big boss is being the big boss no matter how you cut it in the end, as much as I prefer to be under the bootheel of the Dems, if indeed that is the only choice. But the upshot of such concerns with genteel gestures over concrete actions and sincere attitudes is we have a whole society wholly focussed on image and surface at the expense of all else. How can you begin to run a "democracy" if all that matters is the image projected. How do you truly fix anything, if fixing it is secondary to your charm and grace and display of self control etc. while failing to do anything of substance. Anyone who has been here and truly been engaged here knows how little content matters over form. Perhaps another reason for Thaksin's mass appeal.

I also fail to see how maintaining hegemony in a graceful and image concious way is particularly Buddhist, or middle way. It's simply self-deception if nothing else. It is the Buddhism that is espoused to keep the peace with the ruling authorities not true dharma. If Buddhism were sincerely embraced, if loving kindness were practiced to the extent that it can and should, we would not have the Bangkok golf course or a history of a few gentleman graciously taking their turn at exploiting the country. What is middle way about that? Or using the trappings of dharma to cover your tracks? Such concerns as exploiting the country would have absolutely no appeal to such gentleman were they any more than superficially engaged by dharma. Where is the openness and selflessness that is born of true wisdom to be found among them? Openness and wisdom that would allow them to truly care for and embrace say the issues and concerns of the farmers who put the food on their plates. An openess that would welcome the farmers to the Bangkok Race Club. Outrageous, yes, but that is what you are dealing with when you compare what wisdom born of dharma is versus our daily realities, not closed and controlled stratified societies concerned with their appearances alone, an openness that would include all Thai people not just wealthy Bangkokians. With such openness and wisdom as can arise in the mind, the whole world is made of gold, so what possible concern could anyone who practices dharma have with wanting to exploit the country?

I sincerely hope and pray that true compassion and Buddhist realization is born of actual practice among the so-called gentleman graciously taking their turn at helping themselves to the resources of the nation. But let's not kid ourselves or the country or the world that it is and has been going on in our midst right here in old Siam, that we are in the midst of enlightened aristocrats who should be allowed to once again lead us out of the troubles we face now on their glorious white horses, practicing the middle way and the eight fold path. Such a path is a mighty tall order for any human being, let alone someone embroiled in politics and power, very few even living a very simple life are up to it. Lets not comprimise the dharma by holding illusions that what goes on here in the business of ruling the country is informed and partakes of the eight fold path and let's respect it so it may continue to shine for all who would practice dharma as it should.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Shaunduhpostman

[Thai at Heart]

During the 2010 riots when the Red Shirts were burning buildings in the national capital, this writer was concerned that the Royal Bangkok Sports Club where he runs most days would also be torched. It is the premier symbol of the ruling class - 400 acres of greensward in central Bangkok granted by the king a century ago, at any moment occupied by at most two dozen high-status golfers. At that moment in 2010, it was separated only by a simple fence from the violent Red Shirts rallying in front of the adjacent National Police headquarters. But a member of the RBSC General Committee reassured me: "We've made a deal; they won't come in." And they did not.

Another thing to notice about this article is how the author positions himself spatially and socially in relation to the groups he writes about. We learn that Mr Race is a Harvard-trained political analyst, who - even in the distant past - was able to command an audience with the Head of the Police Immigration Bureau (albeit without the desired result). His first-hand account of the 2010 protests is particularly telling: he looks out at the violent Red Shirts from behind the fence of one of Bangkoks more privileged locations, counting on the traditional cultural authority of that institution to keep the dangerous provincials out. Mr Rices 45 years in the Kingdom has clearly yielded rich insights into the mindset of the higher echelons of Thai society, and indeed his explanation of the royalist perspective is perhaps the most interesting aspect of the article. We may even conclude that he has learned his lessons all too well, and like the true native sees no contradiction between his claim that the traditional alternating elites follow the Middle Way when it's time to go, going gracefully and the shootings of 1973 and 2010.

But in a deeply polarised society such a clear identification with one side does not seem to me such a good literary tactic; it means that the author loses readers not already on his side even before they get to the end of the article. I came away thinking, yes, Mr Rice is a clever and knowledgeable man, but he still has a lot to learn about parts of Thailand that in cultural and social terms are a million miles from the Royal Bangkok Sports Club.

That's all as maybe, but it is this patronising view of the poor that is the essential nub of the problem. When the country was moving from a truly 3rd world place up the ladder no one criticised the how's and why's of who facilitated it because on balance it was undoubtedly good for the country. Millions were pulled from hand to mouth living.

Now the goal posts of achievement have changed. It isn't enough anymore to expect people to labour the way they did 40 years ago. Times have changed and that generation of farmers have grandchildren now who want better paid jobs and an iPhone.

But the same old structures still exist. When isaan was a two day trek from Bangkok no one saw the inequality but today it is here for all to see. Harping to go back to what it was 50 years ago is impossible. The big wide world is at Thailand's doorstep and times have changed.

Thailand will either shake itself up or the world will do it for them. They can't hide behind then rose tints of yesteryear. Things must change and go forward or inevitably they go backward.

It is I believe the case that the so called elite are an intractable brake on progress. Either they change or it will go bang.

[Thai at Heart]

the difficulty Thai people are starting to face. Pressures materially from the west and pressures to face the ugly from within.

A good observation. The worrying thing is that you see very few Thai intellectuals or opinion-makers who take the view that Thai culture needs to have less hierarchical prejudices and become more egalitarian in their approach to legal and political rights and responsibilities.

Personally, I think it will take decades for Thailand to come to terms with their ugly side. This ugly side mainly consists of Hi-So Thais feeling fully justified in crushing Isarn people "under their shoe" as I have heard it expressed so many times by these Hi-So types without a shame on their face.

They believe it is the natural order of life and will not budge in this view.

[dukebowling]

In your humble opinion. In many other opinions, including those of the Thai court, there was plenty of evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/22/world/asia/22thai.html?_r=0

I'm "assuming" the Thai courts had more information than we have. But probably the same bias.

Yes, never assume…because you will make an a…you know the rest. From the article itself, "details of the case obscure to many Thais". The non transparency is intentional because there was not enough evidence. If there was good evidence, it would have been broadcasted in triplicate, bolded and published as a best seller.

Why would they let Thaksin's wife keep the land?

One of the controversial aspects of the case was the fact that the FIDF did not want to file a charge against Thaksin and his wife, reasoning that they found the deal transparent, and the price fair. By their own admission, they could not find any way in which the FIDF had been damaged, and finally, only after threats of criminal action against Dr.Tarisa-Watanagase,the head of the Bank of Thailand, did they consent to file the complaint.

Corruption lies in the courts. This is where to start the investigation because these justices feel they are above the law.

Corruption in the FIDF also. His wife purchased the land for 1/3rd the going price. This is dodgy no matter how you look at it. Officials are not suppose to do deals like this. Especially "sweetheart" deals like this that are not available to the general public.

This land was actually devalued in order for the banks to clean up their balance sheets and hopefully start lending money again. Doubtful loans or land values would have 50% written off, and as a result of this the 35 rai Ratchada Phisek land value was reduced from it's original value of 2,140,357,500 baht to what was considered by the FIDF to be a more realistic value of 1,310,100,000 baht.

The Land department estimate had the land price higher than the purchase price by 5%. This was not a sweetheart deal. Here were the bids:

Pojaman Shinawatra - 772,000,000 baht

Land & Houses Plc - 730,000,000 baht

Noble Development - 750,000,000 baht

Was it a deal? Yes pretty good. But not a good enough deal that others didn't bid higher. Kind of like a short sale or foreclosure auction.

Even the Bank of Thailand Governor, MR Pridiyathorn Devakula, stated that the FIDF had not set a minimum price, as all of the previous bidders for the plots had complained about the high price asked, and stated that Pojaman won the bid, because she put in the highest bid.

Again, why was she allowed to keep the land?

Edited January 16, 2014 by dukebowling

[francescoassisi]

Another interesting take........

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/yuriko-koike-criticizes-democratic-countries--indifference-to-the-threat-posed-by-the-thai-opposition-s-strategy-of-protest