History shows a way out of the Thai conflict

[djhotsox]

The only thing that history shows is that Thailand is incapable of running their country through the democratic process.

History may hint to a 'way out' of the conflict (by mimicking the actions of previous failures) but it does nothing to provide a solution to it.

Maybe it's time for a serious change?

[Mackie]

Patronising right wing nonsense. I nearly choked at the part where he says the Bangkok elite follow the 'middle way', taking only what they need and leaving the rest for the common people.

Two years ago Forbes magazine ranked the Shinawatras as the tenth wealthiest family in Thailand. Now just stop for a moment and think. If the Shins are up to their necks in corruption - and I don't doubt they are - what are the other nine families up to?

How about taking your red blinkers off and try to rationally read the whole article again? I suggest you give it a try. You might learn something about Thailand and Thai culture in general. As a matter of fact, you will probably need to read more than once. After that you might make a valuable contribution to this thread instead of posting incoherent and trivial posts. Thank you for taking your time to learn something.

[Spalpeen]

Patronising right wing nonsense. I nearly choked at the part where he says the Bangkok elite follow the 'middle way', taking only what they need and leaving the rest for the common people.

Two years ago Forbes magazine ranked the Shinawatras as the tenth wealthiest family in Thailand. Now just stop for a moment and think. If the Shins are up to their necks in corruption - and I don't doubt they are - what are the other nine families up to?

How about taking your red blinkers off and try to rationally read the whole article again? I suggest you give it a try. You might learn something about Thailand and Thai culture in general. As a matter of fact, you will probably need to read more than once. After that you might make a valuable contribution to this thread instead of posting incoherent and trivial posts. Thank you for taking your time to learn something.

.

Vague and woolly response, so I'll boil it down to one simple question. What do you think the nine wealthiest families in Thailand are up to? Who are they backing?

[lovetotravel]

Excellent article. Should be a must read for all.

[Scamper]

For those lucky enough to have read and digested this whole article, will appreciate the sheer depth of Mr. Race's near-thesis on the history that has preceded and shaped today's events, from every conceivable perspective. I have never encountered such a comprehensive analysis, which is always conducted with honesty, with humanity, and with a searching and inquisitive eye. Its objectivity is Olympian, for it seeks - and succeeds - in trying to understand the genesis, and appeal, and ultimate disadvantages - of power. The article starts off with a gentle musing sadness regarding the general international coverage's ( or rather - condensation ) of these events. But after reading this article, it is very clear why. With all its history, with all its complexity and revolving doors, with intrigue ongoing both seen and unseen, Thailand and the political situations that revolve around it - will never be able to fit into a 30-second soundbite. A thousand bravos to Mr. Race for placing such a high bar for such introspection - as it deserves no less - to those who wish to understand this story, and where it could be leading.

[TVGerry]

Patronising right wing nonsense. I nearly choked at the part where he says the Bangkok elite follow the 'middle way', taking only what they need and leaving the rest for the common people.

Two years ago Forbes magazine ranked the Shinawatras as the tenth wealthiest family in Thailand. Now just stop for a moment and think. If the Shins are up to their necks in corruption - and I don't doubt they are - what are the other nine families up to?

How about taking your red blinkers off and try to rationally read the whole article again? I suggest you give it a try. You might learn something about Thailand and Thai culture in general. As a matter of fact, you will probably need to read more than once. After that you might make a valuable contribution to this thread instead of posting incoherent and trivial posts. Thank you for taking your time to learn something.

.

Vague and woolly response, so I'll boil it down to one simple question. What do you think the nine wealthiest families in Thailand are up to? Who are they backing?

It doesn't matter what people 'think'. What matters is what evidence you have. We've been hearing all about the conspiracy of the rich backing the anti government protestors. Who? And where is your evidence?

[The Deerhunter]

A comprehensive and well researched history and " how we got here" by someone who really knows the stuff.

Unfortunately marred and devalued by describing himself in the 3rd person (right out of the 19th century); and the romantic notion of "a gentlemanly alternation of elites" where successive pillagers of the exchequer have apparently willingly stepped aside after taking their fill, to let others have their go at the trough.

In my experience, no politician ANYWHERE, EVER voluntarily leaves the treasury benches!!! Didn't they just get voted out here when it was time for the short-memoried electorate to believe someone elses' lies until they too were proven as liars. Most countries vote for the apparent lesser of the evils (or the most convincing liars). Surely the LOS is no different???

[Spalpeen]

Patronising right wing nonsense. I nearly choked at the part where he says the Bangkok elite follow the 'middle way', taking only what they need and leaving the rest for the common people.

Two years ago Forbes magazine ranked the Shinawatras as the tenth wealthiest family in Thailand. Now just stop for a moment and think. If the Shins are up to their necks in corruption - and I don't doubt they are - what are the other nine families up to?

How about taking your red blinkers off and try to rationally read the whole article again? I suggest you give it a try. You might learn something about Thailand and Thai culture in general. As a matter of fact, you will probably need to read more than once. After that you might make a valuable contribution to this thread instead of posting incoherent and trivial posts. Thank you for taking your time to learn something.

.

Vague and woolly response, so I'll boil it down to one simple question. What do you think the nine wealthiest families in Thailand are up to? Who are they backing?

It doesn't matter what people 'think'. What matters is what evidence you have. We've been hearing all about the conspiracy of the rich backing the anti government protestors. Who? And where is your evidence?

.

The fact that a now tiny group of troublemakers can continue to block major road junctions in Bangkok while the police and army stand by is all the evidence we need of who is backing them.

[RubbaJohnny]

History shows that unaccountable concerted violence will maintain the staus quo and let everyone know their place.

Your wealth is your power,where else could the rich commit egregiuos crimes with absolute impunity and no criticism in the media,sure Bernie Madoff and Lord Archer were crooks but they went to jail.

[Thai at Heart]

Beside getting a lecture in Thai history the report was not telling what is the way out of the conflict. What did history teach us? Coming back to the old feudalistic system? Thaksin did what most of the Thai ruling PM and government did before use the power for their own benefit. So what will be the solution or the way out of the mess? Btw Thaksin owned the Shin emporium before he become PM. I still believe if he would not have sold it he most probably would be still here as PM. Selling it tax free to Singapore's investment company has p.....d off the elite. I am not saying that Thaksin is a clean guy but he is only a Wolf under Wolves. Thaksin was the first one who made it obvious, he started the organize the government in a corporate style calling the governors CEO. Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Good point re Shin Corp.

So, Thailand for Thais means Thailand's wealth for Thailand's wealthy.

Look at the counter-example of how Berlusconi has kept political power in Italy in the face of numerous legal challenges through the corporate power he continues to wield - yes, he may be in trouble now but has been at it for decades. It has always struck me as a missing piece of the puzzle as to how the Thai elite managed to let Thaksin go so rogue - many elites around the world are used to bringing into their fold any disruptive nouveau super-riche. The tedious mantras about Thaksin being power-mad are just feeble; the whole oligarchy is power-mad, so that trait is no handicap.

If it is Thaksin's obsession with building his own dynasty, then again, oligarchies tend to be family based. Again let's look at Italy, lots of family businesses there: the mafia, camorra, 'ndrangheta and, looking back, the Republic of Venice, the Medicis and all the other family-run city states, including sometimes the papacy itself. Again, this doesn't strike me as a reason to make Thaksin an outcast - they are all traits that are valued by the old oligarchy... so long as they share in some of the gold.

And perhaps it is here that the article fails to mention the elephant in the room - the global elite. There are numerous articles about the formal links between Thaksin and the global corporatists, showing that his masters see Thailand in the broader geopolitical context. One such scenario is the establishment of a US-led "string of pearls" of states bordering China so that control of those states would limit the territorial expansion of Chinese influence. (The US is here used necessarily as a shorthand as it is the most obvious thug on the world stage at the moment but the globalists include others such as the British, Israelis and others.)

Let us not forget that apart from selling "Thai wealth" to foreigners, Thaksin was also prepared to sign a free trade agreement with the USA. As usual, such agreements look good for the smaller nation in terms of access to export markets but are, in essence, a way for US-led corporations to buy up and plunder that country's resources. We all know how restrictive Thai laws are regarding foreign ownership of anything, unless sanctioned by the Thai elite.

So if Thaksin has truly aligned himself with the globalist elite in confrontation with the entrenched Thai elite, this would explain why he has not been welcomed into the arms of the oligarchy. Admittedly, the US support for the Thai army is a hedge, so that a military regime that is pro-globalist would be just as welcomed as a civilian administration. The US has had no qualms in dealing with undemocratic regimes so long as it suits its interests. This may be a relatively peaceful endgame, but how would the Thai elite react to their military going over to the dark side? Are there enough military toys to entice enough Thai generals? We don't know yet.

I personally don't think that the globalists will let go of this bone. How many truly independent countries are there left in the world? Look at what happens to any country that dares to stand alone, irrespective of its regime. I think Thaksin will be removed from the picture only once he has stopped being useful to the globalists. Many redshirt activities are already directly funded by American foundations (one example: http://ned.org/where-we-work/asia/thailand). Many analysts see the Thai redshirts as just another "colour revolution" akin to those in the Middle East. For those who wish to see the end of Thaksin's family business, I think be careful of what you wish - I suspect another leader will appear and the democratic process will continue to be used as a weapon to install a government that will pass through those laws that Thaksin failed to do. Just look at all the other so-called colour revolutions to see how they are doing.

As Bush once said,"You're either with us, or against us." That was not an idle threat. Thais have every right to think of their country as their own... but only in theory; the sad reality is that a small country such as Thailand can no longer be truly independent. So, the third scenario is that the Thai oligarchs accept this and accept some accommodation with the viral globalists. This would, perhaps, be the most peaceful endgame.

However, in all three endgame scenarios, Thailand would no longer be the same.

(There is, of course, a fourth scenario, which is that Thailand falls under the protection of China. But that's another story for now.)

They didn't let him go so rogue, he and his up and coming business buddies didn't tryst the political elite in bangkok not to show the creation of another 1997.

He realised that at a very basic level Bangkok was politically useless and incapable of providing the decision making to secure Thailand.

He was absolutely furious when the telephone industry was the first to be forced to liberalise under the terms of the IMF loan. Just look at the other industries that were supposed to allow foreign entry and competition.

Nothing happened yet. He felt he was stitched up by the democrats in bangkok. Pure and simple.

[TVGerry]

.

The fact that a now tiny group of troublemakers can continue to block major road junctions in Bangkok while the police and army stand by is all the evidence we need of who is backing them.

The police not doing their job as usual is 'evidence' that the protestors have 'money' backing!

[kiwijack]

A MUST READ article for anyone looking for an accurate and objective explanation for the current situation IMHO.

[spare5]

this article should be pinned!

Pinned together with this video.

[newcomer71]

And this video

[newcomer71]

Double post.

Edited January 15, 2014 by newcomer71

[lovetotravel]

.

The fact that a now tiny group of troublemakers can continue to block major road junctions in Bangkok while the police and army stand by is all the evidence we need of who is backing them.

The police not doing their job as usual is 'evidence' that the protestors have 'money' backing!

It's well known the police back the red shirts and the army backs the yellows (for the most part). And that the police are very incompetent. To avoid a coup, they've been told to stay away.

[manarak]

And this video

Well, the journalists should watch the other video

before making their broadcasts.

[dukebowling]

Very biased article. Randomly states documented crimes. Does not include actual historical data.

Are there any objective opinions left?

[newcomer71]

And this video

Well, the journalists should watch the other video

before making their broadcasts.

Ok, whatever... You got the spirit of my post.

Of course the foreigner journalist were inept to make questions on the stage that no any other Thai journalist dared to make.

Great contribute!

Anyway we're derailing off topic, and I would love to close the matter here

Edited January 15, 2014 by newcomer71

[manarak]

And this video

Well, the journalists should watch the other video

before making their broadcasts.

Ok, whatever... You got the spirit of my post.

Of course the foreigner journalist were inept to make questions on the stage that no any other Thai journalist dared to make.

Great contribute!

Anyway we're derailing off topic, and I would love to close the matter here

well, let's not close off so quickly - the broadcast deliberately portrays the claims of the pink and blue clad speaker as lunatic, completely avoiding looking behind the scenes to know if what he said actually made sense or not.

[manarak]

this article should be pinned!

Pinned together with this video.

is there a Thai version of this vid somewhere?

[rwdrwdrwd]

And this video

Well, the journalists should watch the other video

before making their broadcasts.

Ok, whatever... You got the spirit of my post.

Of course the foreigner journalist were inept to make questions on the stage that no any other Thai journalist dared to make.

Great contribute!

Anyway we're derailing off topic, and I would love to close the matter here

well, let's not close off so quickly - the broadcast deliberately portrays the claims of the pink and blue clad speaker as lunatic, completely avoiding looking behind the scenes to know if what he said actually made sense or not.

The Dr comes off as manic, but he's clearly angry. On the other hand, and most importantly, the journalist is absolutely terrible - extremely patronising and supercilious, aggressive and entirely illogical - a horrific combination.

He begins with a question along the lines of 'She was democratically elected - she's not going to resign, why not partake in the elections' and ends up stating that 'Corruption is endemic in Thailand' - the latter is obviously the reason for not doing the former and for pursuing reform as a pre-requisite for election. If he accepts and believes that corruption is 'endemic', then why even bother asking why they don't join in - why give legitimacy to a corrupt process and perpetuate the problem?

It's not that the journalist does not understand the intricacies, it's that he was entirely ill prepared for an interview and harnessed the opportunity to try to get a rise and to make a name for himself by being unnecessarily confrontational with a contradictory bunch of badly phrased questions relayed in a condescending manner.

If you're reading drsparky, that was simply horrific journalism. An embarrassment to your trade.

Edited January 15, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[manarak]

well, let's not close off so quickly - the broadcast deliberately portrays the claims of the pink and blue clad speaker as lunatic, completely avoiding looking behind the scenes to know if what he said actually made sense or not.

The Dr comes off as manic, but he's clearly angry. On the other hand, and most importantly, the journalist is absolutely terrible - extremely patronising and supercilious, but entirely illogical - a horrific combination.

He begins with a question along the lines of 'She was democratically elected - she's not going to resign, why not partake in the elections' and ends up stating that 'Corruption is endemic in Thailand' - the latter is obviously the reason for not doing the former. If he accepts and believes that corruption is 'endemic', then why even bother asking why they don't join in - why give legitimacy to a corrupt process and perpetuate the problem?

It's not that the journalist does not understand the intricacies, it's that he was entirely ill prepared for an interview and harnessed the opportunity to try to get a rise and to make a name for himself by being unnecessarily confrontational with a contradictory bunch of badly phrased questions relayed in a condescending manner.

If you're reading drsparky, that was simply horrific journalism. An embarrassment to your trade.

yes, the journalist is not doing his job properly. Journalists should at first help interviewees to explain their point instead of confronting them.

Only once the opinion has been clearly explained, the journalist can confront them with facts and other opinions to collect statements from the interviewees about that.

[newcomer71]

And this video

Well, the journalists should watch the other video

before making their broadcasts.

Ok, whatever... You got the spirit of my post.

Of course the foreigner journalist were inept to make questions on the stage that no any other Thai journalist dared to make.

Great contribute!

Anyway we're derailing off topic, and I would love to close the matter here

well, let's not close off so quickly - the broadcast deliberately portrays the claims of the pink and blue clad speaker as lunatic, completely avoiding looking behind the scenes to know if what he said actually made sense or not.

Respect forum rules and go on the right thread, I will be glad to reply you...

[Lancelot]

One of the best articles on the current political divide that I have read. Kudos!

[lovetotravel]

Very biased article. Randomly states documented crimes. Does not include actual historical data.

Are there any objective opinions left?

You've got to be kidding me. Documented crimes and historical data are listed for many crimes. No opinions, just the facts. Probably not all the crimes are listed, but for sure the major ones.

[dukebowling]

Very biased article. Randomly states documented crimes. Does not include actual historical data.

Are there any objective opinions left?

You've got to be kidding me. Documented crimes and historical data are listed for many crimes. No opinions, just the facts. Probably not all the crimes are listed, but for sure the major ones.

What crimes? There is no evidence of any illegal acts. Actually the only potential illegal act I can see is one that he was aquited of.

[lomatopo]

I think many recognize that the current anti-government activities are meant to insure that Shiniwatra 'phoenix' as it existed is not allowed to be reborn, especially given the impending "Apex" issue.

This sentence summed up my dissatisfaction with the single-minded goal of the stick to effectively kill the potential of a return, or increase in strength, of the Shinawatra clan, without offering alternatives or solutions:

The remarkable puzzle today is why no group of political entrepreneurs has emerged to compete against Thaksin in this great empty space in the Thai political marketplace.

Why is it that no groups are stepping up with solutions which might appeal to the rural and expanding middle-classes? Should this lack of "political entrepreneurs" be troubling?

I also found this statement both patronizing and flawed:

The Thai state generates and controls extraordinary wealth, and there has traditionally been plenty for everyone. Next-to-no-one starves in Thailand, and while the powerful and well-to-do are pleased to find their pictures in the social pages, they do not flaunt their wealth to the extent practiced in some other Asian societies and elsewhere in the world.

[manarak]

Respect forum rules and go on the right thread, I will be glad to reply you...

and where is the right thread?

[lovetotravel]

Very biased article. Randomly states documented crimes. Does not include actual historical data.

Are there any objective opinions left?

You've got to be kidding me. Documented crimes and historical data are listed for many crimes. No opinions, just the facts. Probably not all the crimes are listed, but for sure the major ones.

What crimes? There is no evidence of any illegal acts. Actually the only potential illegal act I can see is one that he was aquited of.

Then Google is your friend. These cases are well documented.