Can I Kill a Burglar?

[Baerboxer]

I assume the person who posted this question is armed and may be having continuing problems in his area and is wondering if a shoot first and ask questions later is a clear cut choice legally? I should think not.

If he is armed and the miscreant is running away, let the burglar go. If he is coming at you you have no choice but to let him have it.

The farmer in the UK who shot to death a burglar lost his case because, I believe, he shot the burglar in the back. Otherwise, he might have swung the jury in his favour.

The law and people have to consider if the homeowner is unsound mentally and if declared innocent, will celebrate by shooting his mother-in-law, the bugger next door who plays loud music and everybody else in sight, once released.

Moreover, the law and the people must consider if the homeowner is released will it encourage a lot of other people to start doing the same.

However, we all have the natural right to protect ourselves. Its easy for people to rationalize later.who haven't personally had the nightmarish experience of being confronted by some frothing homicidal manic, or, two, in the privacy of their own home.

Which is better? You and your wife and family being murdered, or, being forced to dispatch some crazed, useless and drugged-up moron who has invaded one's home.

Living here, one must also consider, having taken the Dirty Harry option, is one comfortable with the idea of sitting in the corner of prison cell, with 20 others,, chained to the wall, for five years, while their case is being considered.

If the writer is having serious problems maybe should consider getting a large, scary, salivating mastiff, or, three. Keep a couple in the garden and the other in the bedroom.

Dogs seem do what they like here. They don't even need a visa!

The farmer was convicted because the two young burglars he shot were running away at the time he fired. It was held that they were not threat to his life as they were fleeing.

The UK common law defense rests on the principle of using reasonable force. That changes dependent on the circumstances. So, if you are asleep with you wife and family, and wake to find an intruder, and fearing for the lives of your family and you attack and kill the intruder, then you have a good chance of being found not guilty. If he legged it and you chased him down and then killed him you would have a much harder time getting off. It's now very very difficult to own a gun in the UK, so its unlikely a firearm would be involved. I vaguely remember a case where a suspected crook killed a plain clothes police officer who was keeping watch on him at his large house. The officer was hiding in the large wooded garden. The suspect caught him and stabbed him with a hunting knife in the melee. He claimed he thought the guy was a criminal and was fearful for his family. He was acquitted but later convicted of armed robbery.

I personally know of one case in the UK. Someone I knew, a senior school teacher in his early 50s was parking his car on his driveway. Two thugs tried to violently rob him. He was returning from practicing his hobby - the Japanese martial art of Iaido. As such he had a Japanese sword in the car, which he took out and chased the would be robbers away. The police actually caught these idiots, who complained about the sword. The teacher was charged and convicted, even though he was a registered and very experienced martial arts practitioner, and was reasonably scared by two masked teenage thugs.

However, how Thai law deals with would be interesting to find out. I do think that if you have a certain status or wealth here then it would be no problem regardless of what the law says. If you, as a farang kill a Thai you'll be in deep shit unless you can pay and have friends to sort it.

[wooloomooloo]

The Farmer was Tony Martin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

The crook was Kenneth Noye and eventually released from prison where he served time for laundering gold bullion from the Brink's-Mat robbery. A short time later he was involved in a road rage incident and murdered a 21 year old man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Noye

[NeverSure]

Lolz first off I bet the OP is from the USA. 2nd a troll one post then abandon thread.

LOL. I'll bet it isn't from the USA because the answer would already be "yes." I can shoot someone for just trying to break into my house, much less being in it without permission and it's totally legal. I can also have loaded guns in the house and on my person.

So stay the fk out of my house.

[NeverSure]

I'm British and live in Bangkok. I'm wondering what Thai law says about killing a burglar. If I wake up and a stranger is in my house, then he's going down. I just want to know how far O can go.

In most cases reported in the media it happens the other way round. You wake up during a burglary and the burglar stabs or bludgeons you to death before you have a chance to get him. He is normally fully awake and armed with something or other and you are neither.

A couple of different burglar alarms, a hand gun real handy, a short defensive shotgun under your bed in case you decide to roll out of bed and a couple of big dogs and you're golden.

[stiggy]

My understanding is Thai law looks down on burglars of residential property,especially after dark.I had two attempted breakins, one left a 3 ft machete on the balcony as they were disturbed, the other couldn't get past the security locks.

Another time un-knowingly I caught two in the act, thankfully I was returning home and had my brother with me, they had already broke in and stole, while a 3rd male (my friend) was asleep in his bed. We knew the burglar well, and due to alcohol believed his cock and bull story he was passing by and chased a guy off.We later had him arrested and got our stuff back.It also came out they were armed, but seeing how drunk we were, figured they could get away with it.A close call.

After these events, the police informed us most burglars will turn nasty if caught, as the law comes down hard on residential breakins, especially if your home and it's at night.He also stated that next time, as long as it's on our property, we have the right to use force to defend ourselves, even lethal force.

I wouldn't want to test this, and have no real idea if this is applicable or not, so we upped security on the property, and then later moved.I have often wondered, if this is the true cause of a few of the balcony jumpers,i.e. confronting people in there apartment and losing.

End of the day it's only possessions,if it happened again I'd make as much noise as possible, and get away as soon as possible, I wouldn't confront some yabba head with nothing to lose.

Edited January 17, 2014 by stiggy

[balo]

If you have enough money you can kill anyone you want in Thailand and get away with it.

[Curt1591]

Lolz first off I bet the OP is from the USA. 2nd a troll one post then abandon thread.

LOL. I'll bet it isn't from the USA because the answer would already be "yes." I can shoot someone for just trying to break into my house, much less being in it without permission and it's totally legal. I can also have loaded guns in the house and on my person.

So stay the fk out of my house.

It depends on which state one lives. In most states, one still has to be in threat of "great bodily harm".

[NeverSure]

Lolz first off I bet the OP is from the USA. 2nd a troll one post then abandon thread.

LOL. I'll bet it isn't from the USA because the answer would already be "yes." I can shoot someone for just trying to break into my house, much less being in it without permission and it's totally legal. I can also have loaded guns in the house and on my person.

So stay the fk out of my house.

It depends on which state one lives. In most states, one still has to be in threat of "great bodily harm".

Inside your residence, which ones would that be? Link

And "great bodily harm" doesn't mean the perp has to be armed. It can just be a great big guy, or more than one guy, or a smaller person with a baseball bat.

That said, I have carried a concealed firearm almost daily since the mid-70's, and my house is well armed and has an alarm system. Never in all of that time have I even come close to needing a firearm to defend myself, nor have I had an intruder even when I'm not home.

Also, statistics show that when a gun is used, it is fired only 10% of the time. Usually just the presence of the gun is enough to get rid of the perp.

Cheers

[claffey]

Lolz first off I bet the OP is from the USA. 2nd a troll one post then abandon thread.

LOL. I'll bet it isn't from the USA because the answer would already be "yes." I can shoot someone for just trying to break into my house, much less being in it without permission and it's totally legal. I can also have loaded guns in the house and on my person.

So stay the fk out of my house.

It depends on which state one lives. In most states, one still has to be in threat of "great bodily harm".

Inside your residence, which ones would that be? Link

And "great bodily harm" doesn't mean the perp has to be armed. It can just be a great big guy, or more than one guy, or a smaller person with a baseball bat.

That said, I have carried a concealed firearm almost daily since the mid-70's, and my house is well armed and has an alarm system. Never in all of that time have I even come close to needing a firearm to defend myself, nor have I had an intruder even when I'm not home.

Also, statistics show that when a gun is used, it is fired only 10% of the time. Usually just the presence of the gun is enough to get rid of the perp.

Cheers

you've carried a gun since the 1970s! jesus christ..what a tool..

Sent from my Vodafone Smart II using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[CraigSchuler]

Lolz first off I bet the OP is from the USA. 2nd a troll one post then abandon thread.

LOL. I'll bet it isn't from the USA because the answer would already be "yes." I can shoot someone for just trying to break into my house, much less being in it without permission and it's totally legal. I can also have loaded guns in the house and on my person.

So stay the fk out of my house.

And all together the church said......AMEN!

[impulse]

I think a more pertinent question would be "If I have to kill a burglar in my home to defend myself, who do I call first, the police or a taxi to get me on the first flight out of the country?"

I don't know the answer in Thailand. What I'm pretty sure of, is that nobody cares how they would handle it "back home".

In some countries, many expats have been required by their employers to keep a first class airline ticket on them at all times- so they can get out of the country and let the company clean up the mess behind them. That's in case of accident, self defense, etc. Had one of our guys run over a camel one time and it cost the company about a million $$$ to clean up the mess. Well connected camel, it seems.

[Curt1591]

Lolz first off I bet the OP is from the USA. 2nd a troll one post then abandon thread.

LOL. I'll bet it isn't from the USA because the answer would already be "yes." I can shoot someone for just trying to break into my house, much less being in it without permission and it's totally legal. I can also have loaded guns in the house and on my person.

So stay the fk out of my house.

It depends on which state one lives. In most states, one still has to be in threat of "great bodily harm".

Inside your residence, which ones would that be? Link

And "great bodily harm" doesn't mean the perp has to be armed. It can just be a great big guy, or more than one guy, or a smaller person with a baseball bat.

That said, I have carried a concealed firearm almost daily since the mid-70's, and my house is well armed and has an alarm system. Never in all of that time have I even come close to needing a firearm to defend myself, nor have I had an intruder even when I'm not home.

Also, statistics show that when a gun is used, it is fired only 10% of the time. Usually just the presence of the gun is enough to get rid of the perp.

Cheers

As the recent Martin / Zimmerman circus demonstrated, "great bodily harm" is a debated concept. Fortunately, in that case, common sense prevailed.

The "anti's" will tell you that a gun in the house is "X" times more likely to result in the death of a loved one, or someone you know. But, what they fail to point out is that most people know their drug dealers and their rival gang members.

Although the second amendment was specifically written with the government in mind, activists do themselves a disservice by saying gun ownership is necessary for defense from the government.

The government wants the populace disarmed, But, it's not so they can "conquer" them by force; government wants people to depend on them for "protection".

Government wants them disarmed so that the people will be "conquered" by their dependence on government, for their food, their health and their safety.

[monkeycountry]

Generally yes, but you have to make it look like self defence, which is not that hard considering the guy is in your house.

Good luck, all burglars should be killed imo :-)

[NeverSure]

LOL. I'll bet it isn't from the USA because the answer would already be "yes." I can shoot someone for just trying to break into my house, much less being in it without permission and it's totally legal. I can also have loaded guns in the house and on my person.

So stay the fk out of my house.

It depends on which state one lives. In most states, one still has to be in threat of "great bodily harm".

Inside your residence, which ones would that be? Link

And "great bodily harm" doesn't mean the perp has to be armed. It can just be a great big guy, or more than one guy, or a smaller person with a baseball bat.

That said, I have carried a concealed firearm almost daily since the mid-70's, and my house is well armed and has an alarm system. Never in all of that time have I even come close to needing a firearm to defend myself, nor have I had an intruder even when I'm not home.

Also, statistics show that when a gun is used, it is fired only 10% of the time. Usually just the presence of the gun is enough to get rid of the perp.

Cheers

you've carried a gun since the 1970s! jesus christ..what a tool..

Yes, a good gun is a very good tool.

[wolfmanjack]

Wherever one is from, one might need to react in whatever manner suits the circumstances they find themselves.

If you arrive home to find some punk walking out your door with your TV, one might be wise to simply tell the person to piss off.

If one awakes to a confrontation with an armed person, circumstance might dictate a different course of action.

Even in the scary old USA, one can't simply shoot a burglar and not face legal scrutiny and/or consequences.

Most of the states where you can get away with it have a "reasonable cause to fear for your life" clause.

[ableguy]

Why are you guys so scathing and hostile to a really good question, murders commited by Thais are ten a penny, if I awoke to find a thai male in my bedroom self preservation first, chances are he would die.

[sgtsabai]

I believe, and believe is the operative word, that Thai law says you can kill a burglar in your residence if you fear for your life or another's. That being said, if you do use a gun, you better be legal with it and even then your first call better be to a good attorney (or a family member/friend to take the body out to a pig farm, etc). More than likely if you killed someone outside your residence you would probably be in a world of hurt as a farang. What we are used to in our own countries does not apply here. I know the 'self-defense' law pretty well for New Mexico, I was a commissioned/certified law enforcement officer there. It is the only state that I know of that allowed you to pursue an assailant if the assailant had shot at you, memory fades but I believe on your own property, until you no longer felt threatened, ie. you killed the prick. I know we were taught over and over again, when you are brought before a hearing, jury etc. you better remember "I feared for my life". And yes, a 300 lb, 6 ft. 6 inch cranked up dude up against a 5 ft. 7 in. 145 lb is 'fear for my life'. We were not allowed to shot a 'fleeing felon' unless there was proof he was an extreme risk to the community and even then you better be ready for a hard ride. At least back in those days, police were held accountable in New Mexico, apparently no where in Amerika are they anymore.

Oh and by the way I've carried a gun (this is for fighting-this is for fun for those of you that remember boot camp) since I was 19 years old (I'm a hell of lot older now) and learned to use one when I was 13. I had a small arsenal back in the states. I like hunting, shooting, owning guns and I don't need a reason.

[nithisa78]

This could potentially be a really interesting topic. There have been many similar debates about this in the UK (and probably elsewhere). However, this topic will probably go the way of Thai-bashing and then closure. Let's try and keep it sensible as I'm actually quite interested in this...

Yes. You can't make any general statement about it with such no information. If it were concern of mine. I would go to the Police and ask there. It will be the Police you're having to deal with. If it is over stuff, good luck. If it is clear to authorities it was life or death, you have small chance. The many Thai I know. All of them know, it is wrong to kill. Hurt people or steal.

[Dellie]

There are people both Thai and foreigners who commit murder and get away with it all the time in Thailand. If your rich and influential and kill someone who is not also rich and influential then you are pretty much safe. Sad but true.

[NoshowJones]

No, murder is illegal.

Where are you from ?

IF YOU COME HOME TO YOUR HOUSE AND YOU CATCH HIM IN THE ACT OF LOOTING IT, THEN YOU SHOULD KILL HIM. HE COULD HAVE A GUN OR A KNIFE, WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO? TELL HIM TO STOP LOOTING YOU HOUSE AND GO AWAY?

[NoshowJones]

What a moronic question !

Are all Burglars male and Adult ?

Get out off here !

That is not a moronic question. If the burglar is a woman or child, you should be able to hold them without even hurting them, unless they have a gun. If you feel threatened because the woman or child has a weapon, then yes, you have to use violence without killing them. It is just a matter of common sense, all cases are different, but in any situation, you must look after yourself first, and any family member who may be in the house.

[NoshowJones]

No, murder is illegal.

Where are you from ?

IF YOU COME HOME TO YOUR HOUSE AND YOU CATCH HIM IN THE ACT OF LOOTING IT, THEN YOU SHOULD KILL HIM. HE COULD HAVE A GUN OR A KNIFE, WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO? TELL HIM TO STOP LOOTING YOU HOUSE AND GO AWAY?

Sorry Mr Mod, those upper case letters were a mistake on my part.

[NoshowJones]

Surely if you've caught him, there's no need for escalating the situation to murder. Recover your and call the police.

If you have caught him and he is an adult male, you put him down. with a weapon if need be, and make sure he does not get back up. He could have a gun or a knife, and you first priority is the safety of your family and yourself.

[dazza101]

if you have a gun draw it and threaten you should only use it as a last resort and if you need to use it then hit them in the leg or if your a better shot the shoulder is best. it will stop them in their tracks and if front on no jail is your girl is your witness. be smart not ruthless unless you like the Thai prison system.

[NoshowJones]

There was a incident in the US where a 16 year old boy snuck out of his home to go to a party. He came back at 3am drunk thinking he was going into his house. He mistakenly opened his neighbor 's window setting off the burgler alarm. The owner of the house got his gun and told the boy to stop. The boy thought it was his dad yelling at him, so he continued walking to what he thought was his room. The owner shot him to death. When he turned on the lights, he saw it was his neighbor' s son.

The owner was not to blame, how was he to know. If you are that stupid and you get that drunk you don't even know your own house, then it's your own fault.

[sgtsabai]

Nobody is good enough under stress to purposely shoot the leg or arm/shoulder and nobody practices that because you miss and then you die. This 'idea' is usually heard coming from people that don't know guns or gunfighting. BTW there are arteries that will bleed out quickly in both. One does not shoot to kill, one shoots to 'stop the action'. Double tap center mass and if the perp doesn't immediately go down one between the running lights. Most gunfights take place around 7 feet and you don't have time to think, hence the training to double tap center mass. You would be surprised at the times people miss at 7 feet and most of the time a cop first knows he/she is in a gunfight is when he/she is shot. At least it used to be that way, apparently now in Amerika cops just shoot people whether they have a weapon or not, or if they are feeling particularly good that day just beat somebody to death.

I think unless it is very, very clear you are defending your life or that of your family here in Thailand and you kill somebody you are in for a very hard ride. It helps to be very, very rich and powerful, you know just like everywhere else.

[Mario2008]

Law on self defense is not that different from that in many other countries. If you can, you must escape violence and only if there is no other way can you use force yourself. And the force you use must be appropriate and proportional.

In your own home that is normally different, you are not expected to flee from your own house and can stand your ground. But the force you use must still be not more than required. You do not have a license to kill. But of course it will always be in your favor that you are in your own house and defend that and a judge might be very quickly satisfied that you defended you house and family in an appropriate way. But explaining an unarmed dead burglar you shot will take some more convincing than a burglar with knife.

[saakura]

Blade runner Pistorius comes to mind. He famously shot dead his supermodel gf in the bathroom claiming he woke up hearing some noise and shot in a panic assuming it was an intruder and she was sleeping beside him.

[DefaultName]

There was a incident in the US where a 16 year old boy snuck out of his home to go to a party. He came back at 3am drunk thinking he was going into his house. He mistakenly opened his neighbor 's window setting off the burgler alarm. The owner of the house got his gun and told the boy to stop. The boy thought it was his dad yelling at him, so he continued walking to what he thought was his room. The owner shot him to death. When he turned on the lights, he saw it was his neighbor' s son.

"The boy thought it was his dad yelling at him" How could anyone know that, the boy died?

[telldem]

There was a incident in the US where a 16 year old boy snuck out of his home to go to a party. He came back at 3am drunk thinking he was going into his house. He mistakenly opened his neighbor 's window setting off the burgler alarm. The owner of the house got his gun and told the boy to stop. The boy thought it was his dad yelling at him, so he continued walking to what he thought was his room. The owner shot him to death. When he turned on the lights, he saw it was his neighbor' s son.

"The boy thought it was his dad yelling at him" How could anyone know that, the boy died?

The boy died. The neighbor was not charged.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand