Thaksin Returns As Pm

[Jai Dee]

TRT is concerned about impact on democracy if political parties are dissolved

The Thai Rak Thai Party (TRT), under threat of a dissolution for alleged poll fraud, calls for thorough consideration of the case as disbanding parties can erode public faith in democracy.

Suranand Vejjaiva (สุรนันทน์ เวชชาชีวะ), member of the TRT executive board, said his party believes justice will be served since it really did not break the law.

Mr. Suranand said TRT deserved to be treated with fairness and to be given a chance to continue its political work because it has done nothing to damage democracy.

He denied TRT had manipulated independent organizations nor conspired with them in plotting the dissolution of the Democrat Party.

Both TRT and the Democrat have been charged by the Election Commission with violating the Political Parties Act in connection with the April 2 snap election. They can be dissolved if found guilty by the Constitution Court.

Mr. Suranand, however, said the October 15 election will be held as scheduled to alleviate impact on the economy and revive public faith in politics.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 June 2006

[penzman]

Seen Thaksin on tv yesterday walking out of a building, taking the opportunity to boast about this country's checks and balances, in bad English. ....lame comedy for the local and foreign media.

[Martin]

‘John K.’ mentioned that we were all trying to see, or surmise, what was going on behind ‘the fog of war’.

It is a fair analogy.

No doubt there are some very powerful groups manoeuvring for position. And it will suit them all that all that is going in the papers is about political parties and future elections.

There used to be two big players on the ‘power scene’ in Thailand. They were the military and the bureaucracy. Then the growing economic might of businessmen made them able to get a ‘look in’. Also the growing numbers of Bangkok middle-class did the same.

If I had to sum the whole thing up in one sentence, it would be: “There is a showdown over who runs Thailand”.

The military are standing aside from it, but the Bangkok middle-class and the bureaucracy seem to be saying “You big (Chinese) businessmen don’t run Thailand, and you certainly don’t go selling lumps of its infrastructure to your friends in Singapore”.

(I’d love to see the contents of the ‘telegrams’ that the Singapore Ambassdor in Bangkok will be working hard to compose!!)

A nice solution would be for all the shares of Shinawatra Corp to be purchased, at the price Tamesak paid, by the State (and split into sections named T-CGAT, or the Telephone-Call Generating Authority of Thailand, etc etc).

Could it be that behind the fog, Thaksin is desperately ‘plea bargaining’ so that his ultimate ‘fine’ leaves him some proportion of his assets?

[Plus]

disbanding parties can erode public faith in democracy

There's no reason behind this statement other than trying to scare people.

It's exactly the opposite - allowing parties that commit all kinds of fraud to rule the country is what erodes all faith in democracy.

[Plus]

A nice solution would be for all the shares of Shinawatra Corp to be purchased, at the price Tamesak paid, by the State (and split into sections named T-CGAT, or the Telephone-Call Generating Authority of Thailand, etc etc).

Why should Thailand pay for Shin? Thaksin made the company on Thai's money, why should they pay twice for it?

Maybe the compromise will be hitting ITV with a huge fine. Temasek will have to shell it out. Maybe Thailand will get everything back but most likely they'll settle on something about the size of unpaid tax.

Middle class assering itself is the best thing that happened to Thailand in recent history - taking at least some power away or demanding transparency from shady military/bureaucracy groups.

[hammered]

And while all the infighting is going on the caretaker governemnt are carving out a new soon to business filled province that they will get to select the CEO for who will not have to worry about any real pesky check and balance organizations.

There is a lot at stake, and this little manouver seems to indicate at least some are not really intersted in any greater democracy or trasparency. This could get very interesting.

[lukamar]

chownah and Martin... Please go back and edit your posts to be more in line with Khun Plus's viewpoint of things from middle class Bangkok. I'm sure you both know that you are not allowed any contrary viewpoint here, especially if it is coming from the standpoint of someone who is living outside the City. You both obviously have not had the opportunity to read the media or to educate yourself as you live way out in the sticks with the uneducated ignorant unimportant masses that solidly vote for the retched evil TRT.

[Plus]

What's that about? I don't see any disagreement between me and Martin or Chownah, at least not on the last few pages. What page are you on, Lukamar?

[ando]

Now let me see if I have got this all in its right perspective.

According to the majority of the most vocal posters here, -- if the courts find TRT and Thaksin guilty of misdeeds and ban them, then the Constitutional Court is fair and honest. But if the court finds TRT and Thaksin innocent, or acquits the charge on some technical point of law, -- then the Constitutional Court is nothing but a bunch of cronies on Thaksins payroll. Similarly, if the court finds the Democrats guilty then the judges are corrupt, but if they find them innocent then they are good guys.

Sounds to me like a lot of people with preconceived ideas having an each way bet here.

[francois]

hi'

why talk about an already politicaly dead guy?

or may be some want him dead for good ...

anyway, can't anyone see that he prepares his own future, assets or not

just to be sure that no one would hit him in the back once gone ...

right! things like this never change ...

and we talk only about Asia

francois

[Plus]

To Ando above:

I don't agree that it's the right perspective. Based on information we have TRT really commited a fraud - hiring small parties and falsifying EC official records database. What have Democrats have done is unclear.

"Wrongfully citing the Constitution" doesn't make any sense, let alone does not equal to overthrowing Democratic government. Demos didn't campaign to boycott elections either - they campaigned of a perfectly legal choice - no vote.

When people blockaded Songkla registration offices they had a hard time connecting them to local Democrats, let alone to party executives in Bangkok.

The only serious charge is setting up TRT. We don't have enough details but I do remember both Suthep and Thaivikorn (sp?) publicly distancing all their activities from Democrats as a party from the very beginning. It will not be easy to prove otherwise. Don't also forget that their actions couldn't benfit Democrats in any way since they were not running.

When the case goes through the court more details will emerge and it will be clearer if charges against Demos have any substance. So far it looks like EC just made them up on the spot and OAG approved them without reading.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Plus

[chownah]

Why should Thailand pay for Shin? Thaksin made the company on Thai's money, why should they pay twice for it?

I believe that the shares of Shin were sold by their rightful owners. You seem to think that for some reason the people of Thailand owned those shares. I deduce this from your question about why should they pay twice...to me this means that you feel that they have already paid once and can claim some type of ownership. I believe that there is no basis for your view. Can you explain how it is that the people of Thailand own those shares if that is indeed your belief?

Edited June 29, 2006 by chownah

[Plus]

As long as a Thai owns the company it can be called a Thai company. If Thai owners get richer it benefits the whole country - the money is reinvested, it generates more business, jobs etc. etc. Now all profits and all dividends will be paid to Singaporeans who might not be interested in reinvesting in Thailand at all.

I think people wouldn't mind if Thaksin sold it to some other Thais - it would still be a Thai company.

When Martin proposed buying Shin back he probably didn't mean making it a state owned company, just Thai (shareholders) owned company.

[Jai Dee]

Attorney-General says he has yet to look at the documents on the appeal to dissolve 5 political parties

The Attorney General has affirmed that he has yet to receive the appeal from his office's fact-finding committee, but said that he will carefully evaluate it once it is handed over to him.

Attorney General Phachorn Yutithamdamrong (พชร ยุติธรรมดำรง) spoke on the matter of the appeal calling for the dissolution of 5 political parties, which will have to be sent to the Constitutional Court for the final verdict. He said he has not yet seen the document. However, he has insisted that the committee and the attorney-general are working legitimately and carefully.

Mr. Phachorn said he would no longer comment on this matter, and would leave the final verdict to the Constitutional Court.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 June 2006

[John K]

The Constitution Court guarantees fairness for 5 parties charged with ruining democracy

Acting Constitution Court president Pan Chantarapan (ผัน จันทรปาน) guarantees fairness for five political parties facing threats of being disbanded for allegedly undermining democracy.

Mr. Pan said the court is now waiting for prosecution reports from the Office of the Attorney-General. He said he can not set the timeframe for the trials but said the court will work as fast and as best as it can.

The five parties charged with committing crime against democracy under the Political Parties Act are Thai Rak Thai, Democrat, Pattana Chart Thai (พัฒนาชาติไทย), Progressive Democracy and Paendin Thai (แผ่นดินไทย).

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 June 2006

The fact that the court President felt the need to make that statement worries me.

Kinda like don’t worry this won’t hurt a bit.

[hammered]

Why should Thailand pay for Shin? Thaksin made the company on Thai's money, why should they pay twice for it?

I believe that the shares of Shin were sold by their rightful owners. You seem to think that for some reason the people of Thailand owned those shares. I deduce this from your question about why should they pay twice...to me this means that you feel that they have already paid once and can claim some type of ownership. I believe that there is no basis for your view. Can you explain how it is that the people of Thailand own those shares if that is indeed your belief?

Personally I believe the rightful owner sold his shares and could sell the to who he wanted to. This also seems to be the opinion of the PAD supoporters I have spoken to. The problems I can see with the deal, and the problems pointed out by PAD supporters I talk to are the last minute changing of foreign ownership rules, and also the rules regarding a politician and company ownership.

I seriously doubt in the real world that the companies can gotten back without purchasing them. Lets not forget they were actually sold to the investment arm of a foreign government and trading partner, which complicates matters.

[ando]

Everyone wanted Luk? I remember <ahem> some people not wanting any kind of change. Simply ignoring TRT/Thaksin's behaviour and saying "If the poor farmers voted for him then no matter what it is Democracy!" This whole thing is about abuse of power and the systemic destruction of the checks and balances systems.

No one here has ever said they support abuse of political power or that they object to political checks and balances. To infer so is just plain silly and a downright distortion of the opinions put by people with opposing views in this complex matter.

There are many facets to a properly working democracy. And agreed, checks and balances is one. And a very important one. The will of the people is also one. Especially when its an overwhelming majority of the people like in Thailand. In a true democracy, it doesn't matter if the majority of people are but "poor farmers" as quoted from above.

Government by an elite minority, however well-meaning initially, will always lead to corruption of democracy and exploitation of the masses.

Taking shortcuts in refining the checks and balances and disposing of the TRT as a matter of expediency (as advocated by many here ), cuts across the most fundamental principal of democracy where the majority of the people have a right to say in how the country is run. It is very easy for some expat farang to give advice here in this forum how things should be done in Thailand, but the majority of people in Thailand may feel differently. Sure, the checks and balances need to be tightened in the Thai system, but that should be done while respecting the most fundamental principal of democracy, otherwise it is not democracy at all.

[hammered]

The Constitution Court guarantees fairness for 5 parties charged with ruining democracy

Acting Constitution Court president Pan Chantarapan (ผัน จันทรปาน) guarantees fairness for five political parties facing threats of being disbanded for allegedly undermining democracy.

Mr. Pan said the court is now waiting for prosecution reports from the Office of the Attorney-General. He said he can not set the timeframe for the trials but said the court will work as fast and as best as it can.

The five parties charged with committing crime against democracy under the Political Parties Act are Thai Rak Thai, Democrat, Pattana Chart Thai (พัฒนาชาติไทย), Progressive Democracy and Paendin Thai (แผ่นดินไทย).

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 June 2006

The fact that the court President felt the need to make that statement worries me.

Kinda like don’t worry this won’t hurt a bit.

It is interesting too that the 3 top courts have not announced a meeting, or held one for a while. With all the other bigger developments this happened.

[Martin]

In post #995, 'plus' asks:

"Why should Thailand pay for Shin? Thaksin made the company on Thai's money, why should they pay twice for it?"

I agree.

What I was looking for was for Thailand to play fair with the Singapore Government (because Temasek is their way of investing Singaporeans' pensions savings) by, in effect, saying "Look. Thaksin didn't have the moral right to sell you those shares. So how about selling them back to us at the price you paid?". I think Singapore would jump at the chance to get out of the situation.

But I was also suggesting that Thailand gets the money to buy those shares from those Thaksin accounts that 'are being closely watched'. And that they screw all they can out of Thaksin to pay for any more that are needed to be bought in.

I had a chuckle at post 997 from 'lukamar', where he says:

"...... not allowed any contrary viewpoint here, especially if it is coming from the standpoint of someone who is living outside the City. You both obviously have not had the opportunity to read the media or to educate yourself as you live way out in the sticks with the uneducated ignorant unimportant masses that solidly vote for the retched evil TRT."

I think that he either meant 'wretched' or 'retching', but that's just a typo!

The truth in his jest is that 'the City' (which I agree is a fair description of Bangkok, as the provincial 'cities' are no more than large countryside towns) is stuck with the situation that it has created by sucking in the educated and knowledgeable from 'ban nork'.

This may gradually change. I notice that Khon Kaen is getting a bigger middle-class element, largely because of its enormous universities. If enough of the next generation can find satisfying middle-class jobs without having to migrate to Bangkok, a proportion will commute in to their provincial city from their family homes in the villages. That would create a belt of villages round each city with some local leadership. But it will be a slow process unless there is the political will to 'push' new industry to the provinces (by tax breaks, and the like).

If even a proportion of the MPs from Isaan had to develop some such political policy and explain it to the electorate in order to win the majority of the votes, Thailand would have made great strides forward.

It is an ill wind that doesn't blow some good. Maybe Thaksin having gone too far and precipitated this hiatus may create the mood for Thais to look at the country's situation much more closely and critically than they have done, and then some strides may be made.

[hammered]

Everyone wanted Luk? I remember <ahem> some people not wanting any kind of change. Simply ignoring TRT/Thaksin's behaviour and saying "If the poor farmers voted for him then no matter what it is Democracy!" This whole thing is about abuse of power and the systemic destruction of the checks and balances systems.

No one here has ever said they support abuse of political power or that they object to political checks and balances. To infer so is just plain silly and a downright distortion of the opinions put by people with opposing views in this complex matter.

There are many facets to a properly working democracy. And agreed, checks and balances is one. And a very important one. The will of the people is also one. Especially when its an overwhelming majority of the people like in Thailand. In a true democracy, it doesn't matter if the majority of people are but "poor farmers" as quoted from above.

Government by an elite minority, however well-meaning initially, will always lead to corruption of democracy and exploitation of the masses.

Taking shortcuts in refining the checks and balances and disposing of the TRT as a matter of expediency (as advocated by many here ), cuts across the most fundamental principal of democracy where the majority of the people have a right to say in how the country is run. It is very easy for some expat farang to give advice here in this forum how things should be done in Thailand, but the majority of people in Thailand may feel differently. Sure, the checks and balances need to be tightened in the Thai system, but that should be done while respecting the most fundamental principal of democracy, otherwise it is not democracy at all.

An elite minority is exactly what Thaksin and his government are. There are no farmers or fishermen, or working class in the government, which to be fair is exactly the same as every government before. The ordinary people of Thailand have always been and remain exploited by this elite. Every government has found a way of winning the mass votes cheaply whether it is by populist policies, direct buying whatever. Now that is an issue that political reform may do well to address although it will not be easy while the distribution of wealth still remains one of the worst in the world with little sign of change.

[ando]

An elite minority is exactly what Thaksin and his government are. There are no farmers or fishermen, or working class in the government, which to be fair is exactly the same as every government before. The ordinary people of Thailand have always been and remain exploited by this elite. Every government has found a way of winning the mass votes cheaply whether it is by populist policies, direct buying whatever. Now that is an issue that political reform may do well to address although it will not be easy while the distribution of wealth still remains one of the worst in the world with little sign of change.

I do think that the distribution of wealth, education and oppertunity for development is probably one of Thailand's biggest problems.

[Jai Dee]

PM calls a meeting to reinstruct government administrators to work for the country

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra called a meeting with government executives nationwide so that they would be able to continue to work for the country smoothly.

Prime Minister's Office Minister Suranand Vejjajiva (สุรนันทน์ เวชชาชีวะ) said the meeting started at 14:30 hours today.

He said the Prime Minister explained the current political situation to the government executives and reinstructed them to continue to work for the Thai people and the country.

He said they would be aware that the possibility of the new government to manage the policies following the next general election is another matter.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 June 2006

[chownah]

I think people wouldn't mind if Thaksin sold it to some other Thais - it would still be a Thai company.

Where were the Thais when it went up for sale? I think the answer is that everyone in the industry knows that the industry is going through a period of consolidation and small operators (like Shin) are doomed if they don't either sell out or make strategic partnerships. The big guys (Singapore) aren't that interested in strategic partnerships...they want ownership to enable clean consolidation and uncomplicated power structure. As for strategic partnering....with whom? Business deals are usually made to maximize benefits as seen from both sides of the transaction. Singapore bought because it is one more piece to help fill out their area of control....The Shin share holders sold to the higgest bidder. Anyone owning those shares and acting from business principles would have done the same.

The sale of the Shin shares was a sound business deal and it is unlikely that any Thai investors are even remotely interested in repurchasing the shares and certainly not at the price they were sold for because the business can not be run in Thailand by Thais and make profits to justify the required investment......in my opinion.

It is possible that it may turn out that the share holders did Thailand a big favor by selling when they did because if they hadn't done that it might turn out that Thailand might have been passed by in the information technology leaving Thailand even further behind. Don't forget that the proceeds of the sale did go to Thai citizens who will be or have already reinvested the money and are makeing profits and dividens off of those new investments.

Edited June 29, 2006 by chownah

[John K]

disbanding parties can erode public faith in democracy

There's no reason behind this statement other than trying to scare people.

It's exactly the opposite - allowing parties that commit all kinds of fraud to rule the country is what erodes all faith in democracy.

Plus I am glad you pointed it out. This is in fact two things. First it reveals his (Thaksin’s) hand. Second that hand is mind games. This is nothing more that what I call a seed suggestion. It is similar to looking at something. Eventually others will look to see what you are looking at. At that point their imagination takes over if you don’t specify what you are looking at. So in this case the suggestion is ‘it is better to keep uncle Thaksin.’

There is good and bad about this. The people with a lower education will not see this as a mind game. This is simply because they lack the ability to logically figure it out. They will take it as face value. His support lies in the uneducated, so it fits.

The educated people will be able to see it for what it is. He has added the fog so that it is more difficult for the educated so sort it all out.

So I see that Thaksin is in full attack mode now, and that he will do anything to stay on top.

As for the CC issue. As I see it the TRT did break the law and should go down. The democratic party exercised their right as outlined by the law. Any other ruling will show that the court is corrupt.

The only difference is the charges and the procedure. It is still Thaksin behind the scenes. Instead of some slander/ defamation lawsuit, it is this.

[Martin]

'hammered' says in #1010:

"The ordinary people of Thailand have always been and remain exploited by this elite"

But there is now an intermediate group (the 'middle class') emerging, and they won't accept being exploited by the bureaucratic/military/big-business elite, who dominate politics.

Many of the new middle class had their childhoods amongst their 'cousins' who are left as 'ordinary people' in the villages.

The changes in politics here could be very interesting to watch over the next couple of decades.

'hammered' also said:

"...while the distribution of wealth still remains one of the worst in the world with little sign of change. "

I know what he means. The difference in income between a bottles-and-cardboard collector in a Bangkok slum and a professor, commuting in from the suburbs, is enormous.

Similarly, the difference in assets between a landless peasant in Isaan and a big (usually Chinese) landholder is enormous, too.

But in between are the Bangkok middle-class, who have middling income but little in the way of assets.

And, in Isaan, there are the peasants who still have a sizeable landholding, from which they get their rice and some cash crops. They have middling assets but little in the way of income.

If Thailand can develop the political understanding, will, and competence, to ensure that no one group is unfairly exploited by others, it can thrive in either industrial or post-industrial times. It has the land and the infrastucture with which everybody can end up housed and fed, either way, because it is not purely agricultural nor purely industrial.

And I think it could make the transition from the Industrial Era to a Post-Industrial Era with less difficulty than most (maybe, all) other countries.

(Provided, of course, that it reins in the Thaksins of its populace.)

[hammered]

'hammered' says in #1010:

"The ordinary people of Thailand have always been and remain exploited by this elite"

But there is now an intermediate group (the 'middle class') emerging, and they won't accept being exploited by the bureaucratic/military/big-business elite, who dominate politics.

Many of the new middle class had their childhoods amongst their 'cousins' who are left as 'ordinary people' in the villages.

The changes in politics here could be very interesting to watch over the next couple of decades.

'hammered' also said:

"...while the distribution of wealth still remains one of the worst in the world with little sign of change. "

I know what he means. The difference in income between a bottles-and-cardboard collector in a Bangkok slum and a professor, commuting in from the suburbs, is enormous.

Similarly, the difference in assets between a landless peasant in Isaan and a big (usually Chinese) landholder is enormous, too.

But in between are the Bangkok middle-class, who have middling income but little in the way of assets.

And, in Isaan, there are the peasants who still have a sizeable landholding, from which they get their rice and some cash crops. They have middling assets but little in the way of income.

If Thailand can develop the political understanding, will, and competence, to ensure that no one group is unfairly exploited by others, it can thrive in either industrial or post-industrial times. It has the land and the infrastucture with which everybody can end up housed and fed, either way, because it is not purely agricultural nor purely industrial.

And I think it could make the transition from the Industrial Era to a Post-Industrial Era with less difficulty than most (maybe, all) other countries.

(Provided, of course, that it reins in the Thaksins of its populace.)

Yes the emergence of a middle class in places throughout history usually heralds a period of change. This probably links in with ideas of political reform and constitutional change which are current in Thailand now. Politically things are changing. To be honest only a few years ago the middle class were probably right behind Thaksin, but the dynamic for change has probably now left Thaksin behind. I hope this all works its way out positively and the wealth and education disparities narrow, but I do have my doubts.

[Jai Dee]

Thai Chamber of Commerce reduces the nation´s economic growth to 3.8%

The Economic Forecast Center of the University of the Thai Chamber of Commerce indicated that if the next general election will not be held within this year, the national economy will likely to grow by only 3.8 percent as the private sector would not be confident about the country’s political situation.

Mr. Thanawat Pholwichai (ธนวัฒน์ พลวิชัย), the Director of the Economic Forecast Center of the University of the Thai Chamber of Commerce, said that he has reduced the figure of the economic growth to 3.8-4.3 percent from 4-4.5 percent due to the instability of Thailand’s political situation. He said that the verdict of the Office of the Attorney-General in proposing the matter of dissolving five political parties, including TRT and Democrat, is a risk factor for economy of the country because it has caused investment to slow down.

Besides, the prices of crude oil in the global market still stay high at around 65-70 US dollars per barrel. This cause the retail prices of oil in the country to increase. Benzene will be at 28-30 baht per liter, while diesel will be 26-28 baht per liter. He added that the interest rates in Thailand are likely to increase by 0.25-0.5 percent regarding the soaring of interest rates in the global market.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 29 June 2006

[John K]

Question;

is the ‘Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department’ a Thaksin mouth piece or not? I am not sure how much weight I should give their reports.

[ando]

disbanding parties can erode public faith in democracy

There's no reason behind this statement other than trying to scare people.

It's exactly the opposite - allowing parties that commit all kinds of fraud to rule the country is what erodes all faith in democracy.

Plus I am glad you pointed it out. This is in fact two things. First it reveals his (Thaksin’s) hand. Second that hand is mind games. This is nothing more that what I call a seed suggestion. It is similar to looking at something. Eventually others will look to see what you are looking at. At that point their imagination takes over if you don’t specify what you are looking at. So in this case the suggestion is ‘it is better to keep uncle Thaksin.’

There is good and bad about this. The people with a lower education will not see this as a mind game. This is simply because they lack the ability to logically figure it out. They will take it as face value. His support lies in the uneducated, so it fits.

Politicans of every persuasion in every country are basically a bunch of liars and cheats. They manipulte the truth within the limits allowed in order to give false impressions for their own personal benifit. Thailand and Thaksin or who ever comes after him are no different. Same game, different name. Dont kid yourself it will be any different with a different party. All we can hope for is that some of the loopholes will be closed. But of course as is the norm in western democracies, the law is always one step behind the crooks.

The educated people will be able to see it for what it is. He has added the fog so that it is more difficult for the educated so sort it all out.

So I see that Thaksin is in full attack mode now, and that he will do anything to stay on top.

As for the CC issue. As I see it the TRT did break the law and should go down. The democratic party exercised their right as outlined by the law. Any other ruling will show that the court is corrupt.

The only difference is the charges and the procedure. It is still Thaksin behind the scenes. Instead of some slander/ defamation lawsuit, it is this.

[John K]

Ando,

Please take care when you quote another person. Post #1019 looks like it is what I said. It is hard to identify your added comments because your font format and color are the same as mine and are included in my quote. Could you fix that up please. Thanks.