Democracy: It's not as simple as "vote or tax": Thai opinion

[webfact]

STOPPAGE TIME
Democracy: It's not as simple as "vote or tax"
Tulsathit Taptim

BANGKOK: -- Dear Thai people. It's me, Democracy, again. It's been a long time since I last wrote you but let's cut to the chase. Your demand - for me to either respect your vote or respect your tax - is a bit too much. Can I just stand to the side for a while? I'm not playing hard to get, just being realistic.

You guys definitely have divided opinions about me. Don't think of me as rude, but can you please sort out your in-house trouble first? Contrary to what many think, I'm no magic pill. In other words, I can't go up to a brawling crowd and say "Hey, Democracy's here. Stop what you're doing and adore me." It doesn't work that way.

I'd rather steer clear of the street battle. Just to save myself, you know. If I get in there and "respect your tax", the "vote" camp will call me a fake. And vice versa if I present myself and "respect your vote". It's a no-win situation. Not that I mind being called a fake that much, though. More than anything, I just don't want to waste my time.

Obviously, none of you guys wants to be on the receiving end of a lecture, but here are some tips. Both "vote" and "tax" are important. Without "vote", I can't exist. But what on earth will you vote for if there's no money for the winners of the vote to spend? Democracy needs money. Democracy, in fact, boils down to you entrusting somebody else to spend your money.

Do you get it, my dear Thai friends? If you are fighting for me, at least try to understand my mechanism. If "vote" is my heart, then "tax" is my brain. You've got to pay equal respect to both things. Don't ask me how. You have to figure that out by yourselves. As I told you, I can't make people who are throwing everything at each other stop and admire me. The people must stop by themselves so they can "oooh and ahhh" over me.

Do you know what my nightmare is? It's when my name pops up all over the place in a nation at war with itself. When a country begins festering with organisations named Democracy this or Democratic that, it's time to pack your stuff and build a bunker. To many, I'm little more than a shield. They love to use me as a bullet-proof vest and come out all guns blazing.

Thailand has this old saying about blind men trying to tell what an elephant looks like by touching just a part of it. You guys might consider the possibility that your ancestors came up with that with today's conflict in mind. I am the elephant, and unless you touch every part of me, you will never know what I'm actually all about.

I'm based on the belief that the common good will help us make it through. "Many heads are better than one", they say. So, how can we utilise or exercise the common good? Through the ballot box, of course. If 70 out of 100 people think a man is great, he's supposed to be great.

But I'm also based on the belief that the 30 per cent might be right and/or proved to be right in the future. That's why I need checks and balances. It's not "Democracy" if elected politicians use their mandate as a springboard to a holocaust. It's "Democracy" if a "minority" manages to block that kind of usage of "mandate".

The holocaust example is extreme, but I just want to draw your attention to the fact that vote alone cannot complete me. What about "tax", then? Trust me, my friends in the tax camp, you'd rather vote to pick your tax spenders than have armed men come to your doors, summarily take away what you earn and spend it with wild abandon.

You'll have to find a middle ground. It's tricky, but you'll have to, because the bottom line is that if you do it one extreme way or the other, what you'll get will not be me. It will be something else that looks almost like me but with a monster inside.

If I seem to be leaning toward one camp more than the other, it's not my intention. I understand the Washington Post but I also understand its critics. To the Washington Post's haters: one day you will cherish the media's right to make your blood boil. To the Washington Post's admirers: if you decry or belittle attempts to criticise it, you don't understand me like you think you do.

Remember, my Thai friends, "respect" works both ways, meaning you have to respect me for me to respect you. And by "respect", I mean total respect. You can't be selective about me. You have to take the whole package or leave it.

Hope I can see you soon,
Democracy.

-- The Nation 2014-01-22

[Nowhereman60]

Sorry Democracy your a stranger in these parts. This word is not part of the Thai vocabulary. Blocking roads, threatening people. denying them their rights to vote is all the Thai knows.

[NongKhaiKid]

Democracy will never be easy in Thailand as the elite and powerful want it that way, they have too much to lose.

[EricBerg]

Sorry Democracy your a stranger in these parts. This word is not part of the Thai vocabulary. Blocking roads, threatening people. denying them their rights to vote is all the Thai knows.

Why don't you take your crap elsewhere? Not too long ago you considered the "roadblockers" up north as true democrats. And now all of Thailand is undemocratic?

Changing with the wind.

[Nowhereman60]

Sorry Democracy your a stranger in these parts. This word is not part of the Thai vocabulary. Blocking roads, threatening people. denying them their rights to vote is all the Thai knows.

Why don't you take your crap elsewhere? Not too long ago you considered the "roadblockers" up north as true democrats. And now all of Thailand is undemocratic?

Changing with the wind.

Your memory seems to be failing you. I said no such thing. Stop spreading your lies here because you don't like to hear the truth.

[Thai at Heart]

Democracy is essentially the right to express your opinion to any person about any opinion, idea or belief at any time anywhere in any place.

And the guy next to you has to listen and give nothing back than his opinion.

Until Thais realise that they have to listen to and don't have the right to change, influence, or control the opinion of others, it won't work.

I love Thailand very much, and I think Thailand is an immature and unsophisticated place. There it is. So what. Lock me up?

That is Thailand essential problem. Opposing, different or challenging views are filtered, managed and disseminated and sanitised.

If I said that in a bar I'd probably get shot. For what? A thought? An idea?

Grow up Thailand and free your mind.

By the way Tulsathit, I think you are a useless journalist who skirts around the issue with metaphors without ever getting to the point. Maybe you are scared. I don't blame you. Grow some gonads and instead of dressing it up in semantics keep it simple.

C-

Indirect and imprecise.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[noitom]

Democracy will never be easy in Thailand as the elite and powerful want it that way, they have too much to lose.

And the Thai underclass actually has nothing to lose. Someone once said the most dangerous man in the world is the man with nothing to lose.

[ChrisY1]

Riveting piece of so called journalism......the soap opera continues...!

[JAS21]

A fair summary I believe

[englishoak]

Wow the Nation are pumping out the rubbish today ... another useless jouro that probably got his piece of paper on the khaosan road.

Edited January 22, 2014 by englishoak

[focus27]

Democracy is just another farang on a permit to stay.

Just read the Wikipedia entry as a quick introduction, and see that this country has fast-fowarded through most forms of government in 80 years and none of them has lasted. Thailand hasn't tried communism yet.

Tulsathit's condescending puerile tripe seems to suggest that those who pay the most tax should have commensurate influence on government, but he seems to just be thinking in terms of income tax; however, everyone pays taxes every time they buy a litre of petrol or many other goods and services. He may even be thinking about corporation tax, except that corps are not real people but a legal construct. Hard to tell through his patronizing prose. If the latter, then welcome to fascism, which Mussolini once defined as corporatism - communism plus profits. (I know about the violence that got the fascists into power, but am just looking at their ultimate goal in terms of national political structure.) Maybe Thailand should try the Venetian early bicameral model.

[belg]

democracy, honest competition, basic human rights (right to live with your family), right to work (without all that crap you give us farangs) are not words known to most thai

they are stuck in a feudal period or thinking and acting

[LivinLOS]

Democracy is essentially the right to express your opinion to any person about any opinion, idea or belief at any time anywhere in any place.

And the guy next to you has to listen and give nothing back than his opinion.

Until Thais realise that they have to listen to and don't have the right to change, influence, or control the opinion of others, it won't work.

I love Thailand very much, and I think Thailand is an immature and unsophisticated place. There it is. So what. Lock me up?

Democracy rests on the simple foundation that all men are created equal, to have an equal say, an equal right to an opinion, and an equal right to express that opinion, however distasteful it may be to others.

Thit fundamental basis does not exist in a society which has phu noi / phu yai relationships.. Where a feudal hangover of patronage is the fabric of society. Where every part of the language emphasises and expresses superiority and inferiority, and where deference within that framework is expected. Also in turn, where some opinions are unable to be expressed, count lessor than anothers, or are flat out illegal to even come close to mentioning or discussing.

Theres plenty of debate on if language shapes thought, or thought shapes language, or a bit of both.. But when you consider how NLP (nuero linguistic programming) has such an effect on people with defective mental processing (say depression for example) as both identifying the symptom and as helping to plant the seed of a cure.. You have to wonder how much the very fabric of Thai language and society is cause and effect on this inability to allow those very fundamental building blocks as per my first sentence.

I fear that to really become what we think of as a democracy, with universal suffrage, and the equal rights of the individual, it will take a huge change to the fabric of Thai society. One which in unlikely to be a smooth transition. The issues here run deeper than Shins v Royalists, or rural v urban, or rich v poor, even elite v majority.. What we have here is the changing of certain fundamental ideas that are woven so deep into the Thai psyche and language its doubtful they can be removed without ripping the cloth.

[Baerboxer]

Wow the Nation are pumping out the rubbish today ... another useless jouro that probably got his piece of paper on the khaosan road.

Unlike you - pumping rubbish out without even bothering to pretend to be a journalist.

You have no idea of the writer's background and are too lazy or simple to check. Easier to fire off an insult and demean someone with a different view.

Let's see you do better then Mr. Pulitzer.

[focus27]

Democracy is essentially the right to express your opinion to any person about any opinion, idea or belief at any time anywhere in any place.

And the guy next to you has to listen and give nothing back than his opinion.

Until Thais realise that they have to listen to and don't have the right to change, influence, or control the opinion of others, it won't work.

I love Thailand very much, and I think Thailand is an immature and unsophisticated place. There it is. So what. Lock me up?

Democracy rests on the simple foundation that all men are created equal, to have an equal say, an equal right to an opinion, and an equal right to express that opinion, however distasteful it may be to others.

Thit fundamental basis does not exist in a society which has phu noi / phu yai relationships.. Where a feudal hangover of patronage is the fabric of society. Where every part of the language emphasises and expresses superiority and inferiority, and where deference within that framework is expected. Also in turn, where some opinions are unable to be expressed, count lessor than anothers, or are flat out illegal to even come close to mentioning or discussing.

Theres plenty of debate on if language shapes thought, or thought shapes language, or a bit of both.. But when you consider how NLP (nuero linguistic programming) has such an effect on people with defective mental processing (say depression for example) as both identifying the symptom and as helping to plant the seed of a cure.. You have to wonder how much the very fabric of Thai language and society is cause and effect on this inability to allow those very fundamental building blocks as per my first sentence.

I fear that to really become what we think of as a democracy, with universal suffrage, and the equal rights of the individual, it will take a huge change to the fabric of Thai society. One which in unlikely to be a smooth transition. The issues here run deeper than Shins v Royalists, or rural v urban, or rich v poor, even elite v majority.. What we have here is the changing of certain fundamental ideas that are woven so deep into the Thai psyche and language its doubtful they can be removed without ripping the cloth.

Agree with much of what you say, but to add that our current equating of democracy with universal suffrage is a relatively new idea that has developed over centuries of more restricted suffrage, from free unenslaved men only right through to communist party members only. It has also not been a linear development, with democracies often turning back into autocracies, then back again. Thailand has not gone through any of this process whereby democratic institutions grow through democratic means - there is always a reset button but merely rebooting does not remove the bad sectors.

I often tell my Italian friends that Thailand is somewhat like Sicily. Indeed, look at the perennial chaos of Italian politics and the Thaksinesque figure of Berlusconi to see that even western democracies can be shambolic. And for similar reasons, in that every government is weak and beholden to other more powerful centres of power and control. I have often said that democracies are weak forms of government and liable to be controlled covertly - call it corruption or lobbying, it is the same control by non-electoral agencies.

The original coup members of 1932 thought that Thailand was not ready for universal suffrage; perhaps they were right - another reboot?

[DocN]

Dear Democracy

...who the h&%$ are you?

Sincerely

Thailand

[tingtongteesood]

Although I didn't like the way the article was written, it does include a number of salient points. It would be better if it was a proper news report outlining what democracy really means and how Thailand has succeeded and failed in this.

[BudRight]

Wow the Nation are pumping out the rubbish today ... another useless jouro that probably got his piece of paper on the khaosan road.

That's a bit harsh. At least the English is good.

[siampolee]

An extremely elusive beast Democracy. It's somewhat difficult to both train and also get the beast to please all sides too.

.

[SPIKECM]

Only a Thai could come out with such rubbish. This tax/vote idea is at the heart of democracy throughout Europe and the US and continues to this day. It is the very reason for the present political problems in the States. The Tea Party hates Obama just as much as Suthep hates Thaksin. It is a fundamental problem with all modern democracies and is nothing unique to Thailand. In Europe's case, it has matured to the point where the State uses tax to get the people addicted to the State, to the point where life cannot exist without it. Thaksin's Rice Pledging Scheme was arguably an attempt in the same direction, but the shit hit the fan and it would have been all part of a healthy maturing of Thai democracy if Suthep had kept of our the picture. Thailand desperately needs an effective opposition to Thaksin. Wearing Thaksin's clothes didn't work with Aphisit as the vast majority of Thais were too cynical of the Old Order due to 70 years of neglect. The people though would have grown equally cynical of Thaksin given just a bit more time. They should have left this protest to the Thaksin lovers from the North and North-East, but the Democrats are obviously not that clever. That way, politically, the Thaksin clan would have had a bigger problem on their hands. The way it is now, there can be no eventual "winner" than Thaksin. There certainly will be no peace otherwise.

Suthep will accomplish nothing but Civil War if he keep this up. It gets worse by the day. Even with Suthep out of the picture, it is hard to see an end in sight now. It is a tragedy for Thailand.

Edited January 22, 2014 by SPIKECM

[LivinLOS]

An extremely elusive beast Democracy. It's somewhat difficult to both train and also get the beast to please all sides too.

.

2 wolves and a sheep deciding whats for dinner is another appropriate quote.

[LivinLOS]

Democracy is essentially the right to express your opinion to any person about any opinion, idea or belief at any time anywhere in any place.

And the guy next to you has to listen and give nothing back than his opinion.

Until Thais realise that they have to listen to and don't have the right to change, influence, or control the opinion of others, it won't work.

I love Thailand very much, and I think Thailand is an immature and unsophisticated place. There it is. So what. Lock me up?

Democracy rests on the simple foundation that all men are created equal, to have an equal say, an equal right to an opinion, and an equal right to express that opinion, however distasteful it may be to others.

Thit fundamental basis does not exist in a society which has phu noi / phu yai relationships.. Where a feudal hangover of patronage is the fabric of society. Where every part of the language emphasises and expresses superiority and inferiority, and where deference within that framework is expected. Also in turn, where some opinions are unable to be expressed, count lessor than anothers, or are flat out illegal to even come close to mentioning or discussing.

Theres plenty of debate on if language shapes thought, or thought shapes language, or a bit of both.. But when you consider how NLP (nuero linguistic programming) has such an effect on people with defective mental processing (say depression for example) as both identifying the symptom and as helping to plant the seed of a cure.. You have to wonder how much the very fabric of Thai language and society is cause and effect on this inability to allow those very fundamental building blocks as per my first sentence.

I fear that to really become what we think of as a democracy, with universal suffrage, and the equal rights of the individual, it will take a huge change to the fabric of Thai society. One which in unlikely to be a smooth transition. The issues here run deeper than Shins v Royalists, or rural v urban, or rich v poor, even elite v majority.. What we have here is the changing of certain fundamental ideas that are woven so deep into the Thai psyche and language its doubtful they can be removed without ripping the cloth.

Agree with much of what you say, but to add that our current equating of democracy with universal suffrage is a relatively new idea that has developed over centuries of more restricted suffrage, from free unenslaved men only right through to communist party members only. It has also not been a linear development, with democracies often turning back into autocracies, then back again. Thailand has not gone through any of this process whereby democratic institutions grow through democratic means - there is always a reset button but merely rebooting does not remove the bad sectors.

I often tell my Italian friends that Thailand is somewhat like Sicily. Indeed, look at the perennial chaos of Italian politics and the Thaksinesque figure of Berlusconi to see that even western democracies can be shambolic. And for similar reasons, in that every government is weak and beholden to other more powerful centres of power and control. I have often said that democracies are weak forms of government and liable to be controlled covertly - call it corruption or lobbying, it is the same control by non-electoral agencies.

The original coup members of 1932 thought that Thailand was not ready for universal suffrage; perhaps they were right - another reboot?

Agree.. However other countries have manage to simply 'copy' what works about these fundamental ideas and apply them without evolving their own democratic institutions over decades or centuries..

However I really think that theres a fundamental part of the Thai psyche, the fact that people are not equals (big brother / little sister) and that deference and superiority will forever deny them the right to equal opinions and equal right to voice them,.

[Scamper]

A clever article that reaches the conclusion - apparently - to just go out and vote. Indeed, people will vote on February 2. The writer need not fear of that. It's anyone's guess, of course, what kind of an experience that will be. But one thing is certain. The election will result in a parliament without a quorum. So it will be interesting what the writer of the article says once that's apparent. Indeed, democracy is a word that is bandied about a lot, and the writer is correct in that no one truly owns it. However, one of the great pitfalls of this now historical dilemma is that the word has become virtually meaningless here. No one - maybe the writer of this article, though I somehow doubt it ! - can claim this is a truly functional democracy. And the problem with that is that all sorts of terrible things can happen. A man - who does not even live in the country - can direct a proxy administration to his own desire, and have an amnesty bill drawn up that will exonerate him. And that man can conduct a campaign to discredit the truly functioning parts of the administration - the overseeing roles of the Constitutional Court and the NACC. As the writer of this article is fully aware of all of that - and cares not to mention them - even in parentheses - unfortunately puts his article in a more adversarial light.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Scamper

[SPIKECM]

or Churchill's "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time"

The quotes go on forever...

An extremely elusive beast Democracy. It's somewhat difficult to both train and also get the beast to please all sides too.

.

2 wolves and a sheep deciding whats for dinner is another appropriate quote.

[Teddy3943]

Obviously it's a habit in Thailand to use a lot of words without a clear statement. To put it simple: Democracy only works in a country with sufficient developed inhabitants. Too much uneducated, too much corruption and too little vision and leadership will result in chaos and violence.

So Mr. Thai democracy: You're still under aged, not even a teenager...

[rickirs]

An extremely elusive beast Democracy. It's somewhat difficult to both train and also get the beast to please all sides too.

.

Also from Thomas Jefferson in his first inaugural address, “All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will, to be rightful, must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal laws must protect, and to violate which would be oppression.” The US Constitution provides protections for minority rights that wouls balance any unreasonable suppression by the majority.

[Thai at Heart]

Democracy is just another farang on a permit to stay.

Just read the Wikipedia entry as a quick introduction, and see that this country has fast-fowarded through most forms of government in 80 years and none of them has lasted. Thailand hasn't tried communism yet.

Tulsathit's condescending puerile tripe seems to suggest that those who pay the most tax should have commensurate influence on government, but he seems to just be thinking in terms of income tax; however, everyone pays taxes every time they buy a litre of petrol or many other goods and services. He may even be thinking about corporation tax, except that corps are not real people but a legal construct. Hard to tell through his patronizing prose. If the latter, then welcome to fascism, which Mussolini once defined as corporatism - communism plus profits. (I know about the violence that got the fascists into power, but am just looking at their ultimate goal in terms of national political structure.) Maybe Thailand should try the Venetian early bicameral model.

I paid millions in tax. What about me?

[pms33]

A fair summary I believe

I am not an expert in Thai language, but the video and the persons who made that video are not neutral and seem to support the on-going protest. Furthermore the speaker is saying that 1 million people joined the protest on Novermber 24th and 5 million on December 9th and 6 million on December 22th. I did not recall that those number have been reached.

Anyway, i don't think it is really a fair summary. A bit of propaganda added.

Edited January 22, 2014 by pms33