Gay people will always need to come out

[Jingthing]

That is my assertion.

On another thread, a poster posited equality for gay people will not be reached until gay people no longer need to come out.

I totally reject that.

By that measure, "equality" will never be achieved, because gay people will ALWAYS need to come out and/or choose to remain closeted if their unfortunate societal/family situation warrants that.

This kind of "fantasy" pipe dream "equality" is a silly goal.

A realistic goal is equal civil rights under the law.

As a minority that really is very different, yes loving the same sex IS different and will forevermore be different, you can't expect that to ever not be seen as different.

On that note, a heartwarming coming out real life drama:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6AF9s2Zb638

[isanbirder]

I think that is true, but on the other hand, it will become less and less of an issue as being gay wins more general acceptance. For many of us, many people knew we were gay before we made it 'official", and many of the acquaintances who objected had been, as it were, filtered out already.

In my case, it caused hardly a stir, not that I'm particularly obvious, but I fell in love with someone who was, introduced him to everybody, and that was that. I'm happy to say that it was the relationship of my life.

Coming out in a known hostile environment is something different, and will always be something momentous; witness a Kenyan writer whose coming out was publicised today.

[tominbkk]

That is my assertion.

On another thread, a poster posited equality for gay people will not be reached until gay people no longer need to come out.

I totally reject that.

By that measure, "equality" will never be achieved, because gay people will ALWAYS need to come out and/or choose to remain closeted if their unfortunate societal/family situation warrants that.

This kind of "fantasy" pipe dream "equality" is a silly goal.

A realistic goal is equal civil rights under the law.

As a minority that really is very different, yes loving the same sex IS different and will forevermore be different, you can't expect that to ever not be seen as different.

On that note, a heartwarming coming out real life drama:

re the vid, what a great mom! I'm really jealous...

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[Jingthing]

Yeah me too. My scene with my Mom was nothing like that!

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[onthemoon]

I love coming-out stories. When I was in my twens, I was a counselor for young gay guys in their coming-out phase.

Yes, this mother reacts great. It's also the second decade of the 21st century now, so I hope this is not too unusual. I cannot tell US accents - where are these people? I would think NYC and SoCal should feature more understanding parents than rural Oklahoma.

I wonder why the boy calls his mother rather than visiting her and telling her in person. Important things in life should always be told in person, and he already had the back-up from his brother. And did look like he was in need of a hug by his mother!

There is something I don't understand about today's young people: He actually filmed himself, and put it on YouTube? I would have considered this a private enough conversation to not want the whole world to see it. But then, I'm not a counselor any more and probably shouldn't be either.

[onthemoon]

Forgot something: No, JT, I don't think that gay people will have to come out in an ideal society. Some men like women, some men like men, and in an ideal society, every kid will know some gay peoples, for example in the family or celebs or what. That's one thing I like about the series "Modern Family". And so, if someone finds out he or she like people of the same sex, it is no issue, they just live it.

In our times (I am talking about me, but I have a feeling you can relate), there were no visible and accepted gay people. In fact, I thought for a while that I was the only guy in the world who likes guys. That's what caused the problems, and that's what made it difficult to "come out". If everybody knows there are many gay people, a young guy noticing that he likes guys will not find that it is difficult to tell his friends or family. He won't need to "come out", he will just introduce his boyfriend the same way other guys introduce their girlfriends, and nobody will think anything about it.

Sounds like a dream, I know. But when I have introduced my husband in society circles or to my friends, without any effort to "come out", I have not experienced any problems in the past 10 years.

[Jingthing]

Fine. We disagree then. Easy or hard every time you reveal your minority orientation to a new person you are coming out.

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[Showbags]

What if you are not gay...but just like to play with it a little bit.

Asking for a friend...

[ToddWeston]

Some of us already have equality in our home country.

There is NO need to come out if the person feels pressure in doing so, it's not a club they're joining that full disclosure is a requirement, it's private and it's an individuals choice.

Sexuality doesn't define a person.

I respect people's privacy & I'm glad I never had an influence in my life saying "I must".

[Jingthing]

I never said you must come out. I said the concept of coming out from your private circle level to the celeb coming out to the world level isn't going away and its a silly goal to think it ever will anyway.

I think I get the objection though. It seems the same old reaction against the identity concept of gay. I'm not buying it. The boy in the video with the super tolerant Mama still needs to tell this big news to Mama if he hopes her to know who he really is. That concept is not going away even in fantasyland where all Mamas are like that.

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Edited January 22, 2014 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

Fine. We disagree then. Easy or hard every time you reveal your minority orientation to a new person you are coming out.

My minority orientation in Thailand - or even on ThaiVisa - is that I am German. I don't feel like coming out when revealing that.

The reason is that I don't think it's anything I need apologize for. Think about that for a while before replying.

[onthemoon]

Some of us already have equality in our home country.

There is NO need to come out if the person feels pressure in doing so, it's not a club they're joining that full disclosure is a requirement, it's private and it's an individuals choice.

Sexuality doesn't define a person.

I respect people's privacy & I'm glad I never had an influence in my life saying "I must".

Here is my coming out: I drive a Nissan.

No, that doesn't define me. And I wasn't pressured or influenced saying this. It may be private, and it was indeed a choice disclosing this.

There you go, I said it.

Please explain the big deal. If you do, I might even reveal the colour of my car.

[ToddWeston]

Fine. We disagree then. Easy or hard every time you reveal your minority orientation to a new person you are coming out.

My minority orientation in Thailand - or even on ThaiVisa - is that I am German. I don't feel like coming out when revealing that.

The reason is that I don't think it's anything I need apologize for. Think about that for a while before replying.

You never have to apologise for being who you are - if people don't accept you for who you are then stuff them.

More so it's none of their damn business.

[ToddWeston]

Some of us already have equality in our home country.

There is NO need to come out if the person feels pressure in doing so, it's not a club they're joining that full disclosure is a requirement, it's private and it's an individuals choice.

Sexuality doesn't define a person.

I respect people's privacy & I'm glad I never had an influence in my life saying "I must".

Here is my coming out: I drive a Nissan.

No, that doesn't define me. And I wasn't pressured or influenced saying this. It may be private, and it was indeed a choice disclosing this.

There you go, I said it.

Please explain the big deal. If you do, I might even reveal the colour of my car.

If you want full equality you have to reveal the colour & the mileage

[Jingthing]

OK. Again I think you're fooling yourself as well as setting absurdly unrealistic social goals. The gay thing is always going to be a big deal to lots of people especially parents. I think its healthier to accept reality. Homophobia will never go away entirely any more than antisemitism.

Maybe I understand the reality of this better being a Jew.

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Edited January 22, 2014 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

Some of us already have equality in our home country.

There is NO need to come out if the person feels pressure in doing so, it's not a club they're joining that full disclosure is a requirement, it's private and it's an individuals choice.

Sexuality doesn't define a person.

I respect people's privacy & I'm glad I never had an influence in my life saying "I must".

Here is my coming out: I drive a Nissan.

No, that doesn't define me. And I wasn't pressured or influenced saying this. It may be private, and it was indeed a choice disclosing this.

There you go, I said it.

Please explain the big deal. If you do, I might even reveal the colour of my car.

If you want full equality you have to reveal the colour & the mileage

[ToddWeston]

OK. Again I think you're fooling yourself as well as setting absurdly unrealistic social goals. The gay thing is always going to be a big deal to lots of people especially parents. I think its healthier to accept reality. Homophobia will never go away entirely any more than antisemitism.

Maybe I understand the reality of this better being a Jew.

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JT you're twisting the issue, there will always be racism in or out of the closet.

It is NOT a goal to come out and shouldn't be, it's a CHOICE & I respect both.

Parents usually respect their children & no I didn't watch the video. The "coming out" posts & videos I find rather irritating as I don't give a toss who's gay.

[onthemoon]

OK. Again I think you're fooling yourself as well as setting absurdly unrealistic social goals. The gay thing is always going to be a big deal to lots of people especially parents. I think its healthier to accept reality. Homophobia will never go away entirely any more than antisemitism.

Maybe I understand the reality of this better being a Jew.

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Is that so. Didn't you just send a number of postings saying that Tel Aviv is the most gay-friendly city in the world?

If you felt like revealing that you are Jewish in this forum is a coming-out, why did you feel so? Why would you think we wouldn't accept you as you are?

Pardon me for saying so, but I think you are a drama queen.

[JUDAS]

Equality under the law. Do the law makers set the moral groundwork under which the population lives or is it the will of the people which sway the politicians in their legislative role?

An argument I see quite often in the gay forum is that public opinion has been slowly moving towards a majority acceptance for equal rights for gays in USA. IIRC that majority has been reached and is fueled by the younger generation, obviously that trend will continue until the politicians pass appropriate laws.

It really wasn't that long ago that other minorities were discriminated against via statues. Legislation though does not eliminate discrimination within an individual. There are still many people today who are racist but they've learnt to be much more careful to whom they express their views. Society has said that the black person no longer has to sit at the back of the buss and the same will inevitably happen for gay people. That IMO is acceptance and that means no further need for coming "out."

Just my humble opinion.

[Jingthing]

OK. Again I think you're fooling yourself as well as setting absurdly unrealistic social goals. The gay thing is always going to be a big deal to lots of people especially parents. I think its healthier to accept reality. Homophobia will never go away entirely any more than antisemitism.

Maybe I understand the reality of this better being a Jew.

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Is that so. Didn't you just send a number of postings saying that Tel Aviv is the most gay-friendly city in the world?

If you felt like revealing that you are Jewish in this forum is a coming-out, why did you feel so? Why would you think we wouldn't accept you as you are?

Pardon me for saying so, but I think you are a drama queen.

It's hard to imagine someone misreading my post more extremely than you did. Then you cap it off with a banal insult.

Gay life in Israel is irrelevant to my point. It had nothing to do specifically with Jewish attitudes towards gay people. As an aside no I never said TLV is the most gay friendly city in the world ... I said in the middle East. So moving on ....

I wasn't coming out as Jewish here. I've openly referred to my ethnicity hundreds of times on the forum for years. That again wasn't the point.

The point was that there are parallels between homophobia and antisemitism and both are with us as long as there are gays and Jews in the world.

Black people don't come out!

Their Mamas know their baby is black before they do!

The topic is coming out.

Some gays are so obvious they wouldn't have to decide to come out or not. Probably most gays can pass as straight. Then they decide if to reveal or not.

Similarly with Jews. A Hasidic in a medieval getup doesn't ever come out as a Jew. He's Jewy McJew wherever he goes. A more typical modern assimilated Jew like myself is only sometimes recognised as a Jew.

So yes there are similarities in coming out experiences by Jews and gays ... and a Jewish gay person would naturally understand that better from personal experience of both.

Again to review --

the ability to pass as a majority person being common

being of a small minority that has been virulently hated or much worse in the past the present and likely future.

You utopian visionaries ... is fundamentalist Christianity and Islam going to magically vanish?

Or perhaps your vision is limited to economic elites in neighborhoods you might live in.

Again there is no way the concept of coming out is going away. You can create your own mental bubble world and say it doesn't apply to you though if that comforts.

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Edited January 22, 2014 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

In my bubble, it's every gay person in my home country that enjoys full equality.

The pressure associated with being gay is enormous and to add to that by saying they "should come out" is frankly idiotic.

Religion is also a choice, albeit the choice to opt out is usually in adulthood, however I haven't read much about Christian, Moslem or Jewish children committing suicide.

If th OP felt that coming out would help the USA cause then he should have mentioned that in his OP and I would have a acted accordingly

[Scott]

It's very difficult to say what the future holds. I think there will always be challenges with coming out, simply because the road to self-realization is different for different people. Societies and gov'ts may be accepting of people being gay, but when it is your off-spring, it is slightly different. It may mean the end of the genetic road.

I am left-handed. My mother, who is also left-handed, did everything possible to get me to be right-handed. Not because she thought it was wrong, but being left-handed herself, she new that life could be a little difficult and being right-handed would be easier.

Sexuality is, and will be, a sensitive issue for families for the foreseeable future, IMO.

[Jingthing]

In my bubble, it's every gay person in my home country that enjoys full equality.

The pressure associated with being gay is enormous and to add to that by saying they "should come out" is frankly idiotic.

Religion is also a choice, albeit the choice to opt out is usually in adulthood, however I haven't read much about Christian, Moslem or Jewish children committing suicide.

If th OP felt that coming out would help the USA cause then he should have mentioned that in his OP and I would have a acted accordingly

Again as I've already said multiple times what you accuse me of advocating is false. I did not say gay people SHOULD come out!!!!

I said the concept is not going away anywhere. Legal equality won't EVER make coming out issues and choices go away.

It would indeed be idiotic to suggest all gay people in all situations should come out. It can ruin their lives or get them killed. It's a personal decision though of course it's often forced on people due to their being obvious or discovered to be gay without intention.

No legislation in the world, no social change is ever going to always eliminate these issues for most gay people. They'll still need to decide if and when to tell Mama and some Mamas will still be angry or cry. Etc. through society.

Also note that being a Jew is NOT a choice as it's both a religion and an ethnicity. My sister has chosen to follow Christianity but she is still and always will be a Jewess.

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Edited January 23, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

It's very difficult to say what the future holds. I think there will always be challenges with coming out, simply because the road to self-realization is different for different people. Societies and gov'ts may be accepting of people being gay, but when it is your off-spring, it is slightly different. It may mean the end of the genetic road.

I am left-handed. My mother, who is also left-handed, did everything possible to get me to be right-handed. Not because she thought it was wrong, but being left-handed herself, she new that life could be a little difficult and being right-handed would be easier.

Sexuality is, and will be, a sensitive issue for families for the foreseeable future, IMO.

Thank you ... it seems you get my point. Others seem to be arguing against what they imagine my point is.

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[Showbags]

Nobody answered my question.

I feel left out.

I have feelings also.

[Jingthing]

What if you are not gay...but just like to play with it a little bit.

Asking for a friend...

Impossible to answer. If you're not gay there is nothing to come out about. However many people who become aware of your play may conclude you are gay. There's a huge range from people who identify as bisexual to straight guys on the down low.

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[Showbags]

What if you are not gay...but just like to play with it a little bit.

Asking for a friend...

Impossible to answer. If you're not gay there is nothing to come out about. However many people who become aware of your play may conclude you are gay. There's a huge range from people who identify as bisexual to straight guys on the down low.

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Actually that confuses me a little....if a straight guy plays with a guy, how can he be claiming straightness ?

[Jingthing]

If I sleep with a lady I'd still be a big homo. Get it now? Many men sex with men who do not identify as gay.

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Edited January 23, 2014 by Jingthing

[Showbags]

If I sleep with a lady I'd still be a big homo. Get it now? Many men sex with men who do not identify as gay.

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Wow...I think thats gunna cause a storm in a tea cup around here.

But it is not straight any more is it ?

[ToddWeston]

What if you are not gay...but just like to play with it a little bit.

Asking for a friend...

Impossible to answer. If you're not gay there is nothing to come out about. However many people who become aware of your play may conclude you are gay. There's a huge range from people who identify as bisexual to straight guys on the down low.

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Actually that confuses me a little....if a straight guy plays with a guy, how can he be claiming straightness ?

Don't get caught up with the silly labels, in/out/straight/gay/bi we're all sexual beings.