I Paid For Some Land Today

[SouthernMan3]

a note- don't forget if your not married to her you are SOL

on any thing bought before you are married to her,

after married 50/50

very true happynthailand.

One other thing.

I don't know about the OP but I trust my wife 100% and we have been together for over 10 years.

where did i hear this before....

Yea.

Well think what you want and I will do the same.

[CDNinKS]

Please clarify as advice above is confusing.

A girlfriend can subsequently cancel a usefruct once you marry her?

Your wife cannot cancel a usefruct granted by her whilst you are married and remain married.

Your ex-wife cannot cancel a usefruct after you have divorced.

The given is: the usefruct is an official entry on the chanote registered by the land office giving you lifetime rights to the property.

1) Wrong, a girlfriend cannot cancel the usufruct after marrying.

2) Wrong, wife can cancel at any time during marriage,

3) Wrong, wife can cancel up to 1 year after divorce (note not 100% sure it is 1 year, may be less)

4) If the term of the usufruct is quoted on the chanote as 'life' then yes,

Edit 1) as did not read quoted post correctly.

What ThaidDown has posted is exactly my understanding of the law. That is why I had the usufruct done prior to being legally married.

As has been posted before, do not confuse the land and the house, they are 2 separate things. What I'm posting has to do with the land, the post stgrhe made about the house is accurate as far as I know, I would take what he says as good advise there.

There is nothing that is a 100% guarantee I'm afraid, we can only try and provide as many road blocks as possible in the event of a disaster.

[realenglish1]

I have found that many Thai woman con their man into getting land then after a while fly the coup

So right now you are screwed but should take steps before she really fly's away

[transam]

a note- don't forget if your not married to her you are SOL

on any thing bought before you are married to her,

after married 50/50

very true happynthailand.

One other thing.

I don't know about the OP but I trust my wife 100% and we have been together for over 10 years.

And through hellfire and brimstone and survived I might add.

If someone came to me and asked for a usufruct or a rental/lease agreement that would be a sign to me that they do not trust me.

This SHOULD have been talked about BEFORE you bought the land.

Oh when will they ever learn ?

I think your ''trust'' thing is a big mistake. After 25 years of a happy marriage I was stuffed big time. Why did this happen, cos we ALL change as we get older in every way.

Well, I'll just make my mistakes on my own.

But thank you

I am truly sorry for you.

And yes, we do all change.

Wouldn't life be boring if we didn't...........

I wish my life back then had stayed the same but.............

[SouthernMan3]

a note- don't forget if your not married to her you are SOL

on any thing bought before you are married to her,

after married 50/50

very true happynthailand.

One other thing.

I don't know about the OP but I trust my wife 100% and we have been together for over 10 years.

And through hellfire and brimstone and survived I might add.

If someone came to me and asked for a usufruct or a rental/lease agreement that would be a sign to me that they do not trust me.

This SHOULD have been talked about BEFORE you bought the land.

Oh when will they ever learn ?

Not true! Get your facts right before you post. Whether you trust your wife or not is irrelevant.

If you wife is killed in a motorcycle accident or falling down some stairs etc., etc., then the person who inherits the land has every right to turn up and throw you off the land immediately. The usufruct gives you the right to live on the land for 30 years, come what may, it is a better solution than a lease. A lease requires that you have to make payments to the landowner, as in the West.

Get your lawyer to draw it up in English and Thai, item by item. Make sure he retains a copy for security then at least one will be available in the event of a disaster. Make sure your name is entered on the back of the Chanote.

As you are not permitted to own land or pay for it, with exceptions, then presumably you made a 'loan' for the purchase?

True.

In my case if my wife dies then that would be my daughters.

All good there.

Other then that.

All else of what you said is true and a good idea in this bloke's case I would think.

Btw, which part is not true ?

I don't quite understand what you are saying in that department.

[Tony125]

if you are young don't go for the 30 year lease ,usufruct better lasts a lifetime ,if your an old guy go for the lease chances are you would be dead before 30 lease expires jmo,better to just go back down land office and get usufruct costs around 100 bht ,no hassle at all.

i am 42 taninthai..... do i need a lawyer to draw up a usufruct, or can i get a template online that will be accepted by the land office?

Don't be stupid, it should be worth a few baht to make sure everything is done right. If you were in your home country would you fork over thousands of dollars to a G/F or even wife and say here go buy some land and a house for us not knowing if the deed is lein free or any other problems.? get a lawyer.

[wolfmanjack]

a note- don't forget if your not married to her you are SOL

on any thing bought before you are married to her,

after married 50/50

very true happynthailand.

One other thing.

I don't know about the OP but I trust my wife 100% and we have been together for over 10 years.

where did i hear this before....

I used to trust my wife 100% also.

[SouthernMan3]

a note- don't forget if your not married to her you are SOL

on any thing bought before you are married to her,

after married 50/50

very true happynthailand.

One other thing.

I don't know about the OP but I trust my wife 100% and we have been together for over 10 years.

where did i hear this before....

I used to trust my wife 100% also.

Must got the wrong wife.

Bummer...........................................

[wolfmanjack]

very true happynthailand.

One other thing.

I don't know about the OP but I trust my wife 100% and we have been together for over 10 years.

where did i hear this before....

I used to trust my wife 100% also.

Must got the wrong wife.

Bummer...........................................

Yep. As others have said. Some people change. In our case she changed for the worse and I stayed the same.

[shaurene]

Hi. You cannot hold the land and she cannot hold the land. If she cannot prove the money came from a Falange she is <deleted>**^d. For a start you have been stupid, your brain has transferred down to the small head between your legs.

If you are asking people what to do you should not have gone this far if you did not know your rights.

[CDNinKS]

Heard a saying the other day that I thought was very profound.

Women marry men thinking they will change and are disappointed when they don't.

Men marry women thinking they won't change and are disappointed when they do.

[transam]

Heard a saying the other day that I thought was very profound.

Women marry men thinking they will change and are disappointed when they don't.

Men marry women thinking they won't change and are disappointed when they do.

How true...........

[khunPer]

»...i would like to add some security into the situation...«

An advisable option is to have a loan declared (servitude) at the Land Department on the back of the Chanute land deed. You will need a loan document, which can be the standard form available from book and paper stores, or better have a lawyer to do it for you. You can have the loan amount as the full value you have paid for the land plus the expenses for the house you are going to build. The land cannot be sold or transferred without the loan – plus whatever interest may be stipulated – have been paid in full. You should be able to do it even you may have a usufruct agreement. Bear in mind that a foreigner cannot own land in Thailand, should it come to a point where lender need to take possession on the security, the land is the security, then the land shall be sold or transferred to a Thai national or company within a certain period of time, believe it’s 12 month.

[iancnx]

Please clarify as advice above is confusing.

A girlfriend can subsequently cancel a usefruct once you marry her?

Your wife cannot cancel a usefruct granted by her whilst you are married and remain married.

Your ex-wife cannot cancel a usefruct after you have divorced.

The given is: the usefruct is an official entry on the chanote registered by the land office giving you lifetime rights to the property.

1) Wrong, a girlfriend cannot cancel the usufruct after marrying.

2) Wrong, wife can cancel at any time during marriage,

3) Wrong, wife can cancel up to 1 year after divorce (note not 100% sure it is 1 year, may be less)

4) If the term of the usufruct is quoted on the chanote as 'life' then yes,

Edit 1) as did not read quoted post correctly.

My legal advice has been once a lifetime usefruct is granted by the land owner (wife) and registered in the land office, and your name is annotated in the latest new entry on the reverse of the chanot then you have the lifetime rights to that land. Additionally if you have paid for the building upon that land you then have lifetime rights to that building also. Seems very straight forward to me. What happens in the event of a divorce is subjective and will be up to the courts and the lawyers. But it is INCORRECT to suggest a wife can reverse the granting of a usefruct on a whim.

[CDNinKS]

Hi. You cannot hold the land and she cannot hold the land. If she cannot prove the money came from a Falange she is <deleted>**^d. For a start you have been stupid, your brain has transferred down to the small head between your legs.

If you are asking people what to do you should not have gone this far if you did not know your rights.

I hope the mods delete this obvious flame and utterly useless post to the OP original question. If you don't hav anything constructive to say, shut up!

[Phuketboy]

If the OP had a Thai company and bought through that, would that protect him as the company would own the house land? I'm just digging as this is what I was thinking about the other day. I have a Thai company set up me having 49% the GF 49% and a friend 2%, preference shares to them (980 and 40 voting rights) and the normal shares to me (9800 voting rights). The lawyer set up this way to protect me and all businesses under that umbrella, so that even if they got together they can't vote me out and I still maintain full control of the company even though I have 49%. Also if the preference shares are sold, I have the right to them first and for most and I have to agree on where and who they are sold to.

Given this, If I bought land and/or a house through the company now, wouldn't I be protected this way? I'm only asking as this has been on my mind and it could be an option for the OP as well.

[CDNinKS]

Please clarify as advice above is confusing.

A girlfriend can subsequently cancel a usefruct once you marry her?

Your wife cannot cancel a usefruct granted by her whilst you are married and remain married.

Your ex-wife cannot cancel a usefruct after you have divorced.

The given is: the usefruct is an official entry on the chanote registered by the land office giving you lifetime rights to the property.

1) Wrong, a girlfriend cannot cancel the usufruct after marrying.

2) Wrong, wife can cancel at any time during marriage,

3) Wrong, wife can cancel up to 1 year after divorce (note not 100% sure it is 1 year, may be less)

4) If the term of the usufruct is quoted on the chanote as 'life' then yes,

Edit 1) as did not read quoted post correctly.

My legal advice has been once a lifetime usefruct is granted by the land owner (wife) and registered in the land office, and your name is annotated in the latest new entry on the reverse of the chanot then you have the lifetime rights to that land. Additionally if you have paid for the building upon that land you then have lifetime rights to that building also. Seems very straight forward to me. What happens in the event of a divorce is subjective and will be up to the courts and the lawyers. But it is INCORRECT to suggest a wife can reverse the granting of a usefruct on a whim.

I suppose as in everything in Thailand the law is subject to interpretation, but the lawyer I contacted prior to having the usufruct attached to the chanote did say that a wife (legal) can have a usufruct removed if she was married to the usufruct holder at the time it was granted.

[khunPer]

Get your girlfriend to make you a 30 year lease on the land and also make sure that you can prove that you paid for the house that will be built on it. You will legally own the house, so if there was ever a problem then she would have to buy the house from you or you could remove it. Therefore, you have double insurance, 30 year lease and house ownership.

BTW where is the land?... is it in her home town?

A thirty-year lease is only legal, when registered by the Land Department and written on the back of the Chanote land deed. Any lease over three years is invalid, if not registered. When registering a lease you shall pay tax for the full lease period; I think it is one per cent of the lease, but may have changed so do check it – or some other Forum members may know the present rate.

Yes, you can own a house, but when you build a house you will not receive any proof of ownership. If you buy a (second hand) house, you may be able to be registered as owner at the Land Department. Therefore the following is (very) important to prove you, and only you, are the owner when building a new house:

Your name on architect drawings

Your name on building permission from amphor

Your name on any agreement/contract with building constructer

Keep all money transfers to building constructer or any other proof of payment

Keep all bills, preferable with your name on, as proof

If you are bank-transferring money from abroad to build a house and the value of each transfer is more than the equivalent of 20,000 USD, you can ask your Thai bank to have a form made and registered by the National Bank, that the money is transferred for building a house. Keep the receipt, which often is copy you receive about week later. With that document you are eligible to transfer the same amount out of Thailand, should you on day sell the house and move on.

[CDNinKS]

If the OP had a Thai company and bought through that, would that protect him as the company would own the house land? I'm just digging as this is what I was thinking about the other day. I have a Thai company set up me having 49% the GF 49% and a friend 2%, preference shares to them (980 and 40 voting rights) and the normal shares to me (9800 voting rights). The lawyer set up this way to protect me and all businesses under that umbrella, so that even if they got together they can't vote me out and I still maintain full control of the company even though I have 49%. Also if the preference shares are sold, I have the right to them first and for most and I have to agree on where and who they are sold to.

Given this, If I bought land and/or a house through the company now, wouldn't I be protected this way? I'm only asking as this has been on my mind and it could be an option for the OP as well.

Yes, many farangs "own" land this way. It is a bit of a loop hole and has some of it's own problems as well. As I'm sure you have seen in the news many times, the Thai Gov rattles its saber about "nominee" land holders, shell companies, etc.

[ThaidDown]

My legal advice has been once a lifetime usefruct is granted by the land owner (wife) and registered in the land office, and your name is annotated in the latest new entry on the reverse of the chanot then you have the lifetime rights to that land. Additionally if you have paid for the building upon that land you then have lifetime rights to that building also. Seems very straight forward to me. What happens in the event of a divorce is subjective and will be up to the courts and the lawyers. But it is INCORRECT to suggest a wife can reverse the granting of a usefruct on a whim.

Yes I have seen that before, however Section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial code does allow either spouse the right to cancel an agreement between them at will. The contention, if it went to court, would be if one spouse bestowing real property rights on the other spouse by way of usufruct was considered 'an agreement' or not.

Since Thai Judges are not fully bound by precedents, as in some western countries, I would suggest that not every court case would have the same outcome.

[khunPer]

if you are young don't go for the 30 year lease ,usufruct better lasts a lifetime ,if your an old guy go for the lease chances are you would be dead before 30 lease expires jmo,better to just go back down land office and get usufruct costs around 100 bht ,no hassle at all.

You can have an option for an additional thirty-year lease period in the original Lease Agreement/Contract. The additional period cannot be registered at the Land Department but is a legal binding agreement between leaser and lesser. In case of any disagreement when 2^nd lease period begins, the contract has to takes to the court. It’s a bit unclear if you can also have a third period as option i.e. ninety-years total, some documentation seems to approve it.

A Lease Agreement/Contract can include that your heirs can take over or the agreement can be transferred to a third party on same conditions. That clause may be a better life insurance than a usufruct.

[iancnx]

Please clarify as advice above is confusing.

A girlfriend can subsequently cancel a usefruct once you marry her?

Your wife cannot cancel a usefruct granted by her whilst you are married and remain married.

Your ex-wife cannot cancel a usefruct after you have divorced.

The given is: the usefruct is an official entry on the chanote registered by the land office giving you lifetime rights to the property.

1) Wrong, a girlfriend cannot cancel the usufruct after marrying.

2) Wrong, wife can cancel at any time during marriage,

3) Wrong, wife can cancel up to 1 year after divorce (note not 100% sure it is 1 year, may be less)

4) If the term of the usufruct is quoted on the chanote as 'life' then yes,

Edit 1) as did not read quoted post correctly.

My legal advice has been once a lifetime usefruct is granted by the land owner (wife) and registered in the land office, and your name is annotated in the latest new entry on the reverse of the chanot then you have the lifetime rights to that land. Additionally if you have paid for the building upon that land you then have lifetime rights to that building also. Seems very straight forward to me. What happens in the event of a divorce is subjective and will be up to the courts and the lawyers. But it is INCORRECT to suggest a wife can reverse the granting of a usefruct on a whim.

I suppose as in everything in Thailand the law is subject to interpretation, but the lawyer I contacted prior to having the usufruct attached to the chanote did say that a wife (legal) can have a usufruct removed if she was married to the usufruct holder at the time it was granted.

I agree the law is of course subject to interpretation. But it just does not make sense for your wife to give a lifetime usefruct duly registered at the land office with your name annotated on the chanot only to then be allowed to withdraw it at a later date, and the land Office would support such a thing - does it? No it makes no sense at all!

Some lawyers are known to advise against usefruct of course as it makes them NO FEE, as it only costs 100 baht at the land office. Whereas an expensive and unnecessary formation of a Thai Company, or the drawing up of a (very complex) 30 year lease does earn the Law Firm a FEE.

[CDNinKS]

I have found that many Thai woman con their man into getting land then after a while fly the coup

So right now you are screwed but should take steps before she really fly's away

I'm afraid Thai women do not hold exclusive rights to that practice.....and I'm speaking from experience

[leosuntime]

I was in the same situation as U for 4 years, bought land & built a house, then the thai bf appeared along with drugs, alcohol & gambling. When I refused to give my wife more money she divorced me to get 50% & alimony. The Judge laughed her out of court & gave me everything, inc.the land. I paid a small settlement to keep face & the land id under my control. My advice is that if U are thinking it may happen, then do not proceed without a good lawyer.

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

awesome story!!! did the judge really laugh?? can you describe the laugh and describe the look on your ex and her families face I wanna see it in my mind!! sooo funny

did u thank the judge for his awesome morals? ?

[CDNinKS]

agree the law is of course subject to interpretation. But it just does not make sense for your wife to give a lifetime usefruct duly registered at the land office with your name annotated on the chanot only to then be allowed to withdraw it at a later date, and the land Office would support such a thing - does it? No it makes no sense at all!

Some lawyers are known to advise against usefruct of course as it makes them NO FEE, as it only costs 100 baht at the land office. Whereas an expensive and unnecessary formation of a Thai Company, or the drawing up of a (very complex) 30 year lease does earn the Law Firm a FEE.

Surely this is not the first time you have seen something that makes no sense in the LOS

The law firm gave me that advise free of charge and were not trying to talk me out of a usufruct at all, just gave me their interpretation of the law. I have no idea how it would really play out in court and I suppose only someone who has actually tested it would know for sure.

Edited January 25, 2014 by CDNinKS

[iancnx]

Any other Usefructees reading this thread? It is related to the OP after all

[CDNinKS]

Something else that I just remembered. A Thai woman can not sell any land without the permission of her husband if the land office knows she is married. This has nothing to do with usfructs/leases etc. When my wife bought a second plot of land the woman she was buying from was not allowed to sell until her husband gave permission. This was at the Hua Hin land office.

[khunPer]

If the OP had a Thai company and bought through that, would that protect him as the company would own the house land? I'm just digging as this is what I was thinking about the other day. I have a Thai company set up me having 49% the GF 49% and a friend 2%, preference shares to them (980 and 40 voting rights) and the normal shares to me (9800 voting rights). The lawyer set up this way to protect me and all businesses under that umbrella, so that even if they got together they can't vote me out and I still maintain full control of the company even though I have 49%. Also if the preference shares are sold, I have the right to them first and for most and I have to agree on where and who they are sold to.

Given this, If I bought land and/or a house through the company now, wouldn't I be protected this way? I'm only asking as this has been on my mind and it could be an option for the OP as well.

The company ownership method is often used. Before a limited company were set up using proxy shareholders, often some people a lawyer found for you, today you need real shareholders who can prove they have the funds to buy their shares. The minimum number of shareholders has gone down from seven to three only.

Using preferred shares is indeed a way to control votes, like suggested in above quote 49% alien, 49+2% Thais, however the 49% Thai must have mean of fund, but could be wife or GF receiving a gift. You only need a small number of preferred shares, so 49% of capital gives at least 51% of votes, which the foreigner holds. Be aware, that some Land Departments may not accept registration of land-transfer to a company with more than 39% foreign shareholders.

If a company’s only activity is hold and lease of one plot of land, the company may be suspect and eligible for being closed by authorities and the land sold. An experienced lawyer shall know the way to do the right set up at present, as rules and regulations often change. The best solution may be if the company has other activities than just ownership and lease of a single land plot. The company will need an accountant, agreement with accounting company to perform the duties, send in audited annual statements and pay some level of tax, which means that the costs for running a company easily may be 50,000+ bath/year.

A lease agreement over three years need to be registered at Land Department and tax paid for. Furthermore the ongoing lease has to be in the company books and the overhead taxed – don’t expect to operate a Thai limited company with paying tax of a profit – your accountant will make sure the annual statement shows minimum a small profit for taxation.

[VINCENT2012]

if you don't trust your wife 100% , the best thing is to make a 30 year lease contact renewable 3 times.....so 90 years in total by a lawyer. keep the document and a copy of the chanot with you.

you better only accept to live with your wife only because the problem will be to kick her out if she doesen't want to leave the place espacially if you have also some family from her since long time in the same house.

i know this problem because i did win a trial in court, it took me 8 hours negociation and a bit of luck.

everybody think it is no problem with an usufruit but in thailand it is .... i can't explain all the reason here but it is complicated .

good day and good luck

[iancnx]

Thanks Briggsy.... is that the usufruct option? can one of these be sorted out before the house is built?

i read that the cost is only 100B when we are married, so this sounds like a good option

A Userfruct (UF) is an instrument/document that gives you lifetime use of the property.

That said,...IMHO not worth the paper they're written on because lets say you built a house on it and that the UF gives you a technical right to occupy (for the term of your lifetime), If you had a split from your GF/Mrs then she could claim that the UF to you would force her onto the street and cause hardship. This scenario is amplified when kids are involved. A Thai court is HIGHLY unlikely to kick her out and you can forget calling the police to get her out.

If she was to sell to someone else (without your consent) then you may have some leverage by way of a UF or a 30yr lease being registered on the back of the Channot at the Lands Office. However, such things can be overcome with the aid of the "right" people in the transfers dept or via a cunning lawyer. It's not like the west where you can register an "absolute caveat" which can only be extinguished by a court.

Up until recently I was not confident that westerners had much chance of recovering any equity in Thai land when marriages or relationships end, but I have read many reports here on TVF where the courts awarded 50% of sale proceeds to the western husband. If you're not married and not intending to (legally) then I'm not sure how the courts look at defacto relationships and you ought to seek advice on that one.

Disclaimer... I am not a lawyer and this is not advice; just my opinion based on many years of experience here and many conversations with Thai lawyers on the topic when I was first getting married and investing here 10 years ago.

Cheers and best wishes with it.

Yep, again the subject of divorce will be settled in Court. I actually considered the thrust of your argument when I embarked on my build. I have put up two separate dwellings on the same land, so the missus would never be homeless. Add to that she has a family home, of course, before we met. So in this case, the courts might consider I have made sensible provision for my wife. Anyway, I am pleased to say my wife and I couldn't be happier, we love each other very much, and the Usefruct was a useful process to cement our understanding of our materiel relationship. I thoroughly recommend it for 100 baht. By the way the land was hers, I didn't pay for it!