I Paid For Some Land Today

[RigPig]

everything here is in my thai wife or children's names if you have doubts don't do it if it goes wrong then just man up and let her have it all

worked for me for 30 years

Worked for me for 30 years too ....... then she took the lot and chucked me out.

And there you have it, the reason for "insurance".....

It happens no matter what country you're in, the difference here is you do have a chance to "protect yourself....

[simple1]

Fair enough, that's interesting, but it does bring up a few other questions and yes I would think the biggest worry in that case would be the land office, but I wouldn't think there would be any corruption there would there.......

The land office is so corrupt, you have to pay a bribe (about 2,000bht )to get a land transfer completed the same day.

Absolute rubbish! Clearly you are no expert, though you might mean well, and you might have to pay bribes in your Amphur. But my experience with our land office has been nothing other than professional and amenable.

I guess different staff at Land Offices will have varying standards of 'professionalism'. Wife bought a house and paid tea money to a Land Office official to process the claim that the existing owner was family; that greatly reduced the tax payable

[Suitcase]

Seems to me that one would find out all this information

before hand.

I should know by now; we always have time and money to do it later!

[UKJASE]

Hey guys - as the OP i just wanted to share with you what happened to us in the end regarding my worries in the opening post

today we just got back from the hua hin land office and now have my name on the back of the chanoot, in the form of a usufruct

this entitles me to access the land for the rest of my days, regardless of the wife's mood

this of course makes it near impossible for my wife to sell, or borrow money from the bank using the chanoot as collateral

this has given me the security i wanted so that we can start to build the house

cost at the land office was 75B for official paperwork, plus grease money of 10k to get the ball rolling

tea money to official payment ratio was very high in this instance, but i have got my peace of mind so i am happy

thanks again to all those who offered advice and shared their experiences.

[taninthai]

Well done apart from the tea money of coarse,what's the situation if your wife/girlfriend speaks up and says sorry I cannot support corruption,do they blatantly then refuse to do the paperwork?g

[transam]

Hey guys - as the OP i just wanted to share with you what happened to us in the end regarding my worries in the opening post

today we just got back from the hua hin land office and now have my name on the back of the chanoot, in the form of a usufruct

this entitles me to access the land for the rest of my days, regardless of the wife's mood

this of course makes it near impossible for my wife to sell, or borrow money from the bank using the chanoot as collateral

this has given me the security i wanted so that we can start to build the house

cost at the land office was 75B for official paperwork, plus grease money of 10k to get the ball rolling

tea money to official payment ratio was very high in this instance, but i have got my peace of mind so i am happy

thanks again to all those who offered advice and shared their experiences.

My name is also on the back of the chanote stating the same thing. Didn't cost me tea money though.

[taninthai]

My opinion is that if you get the usufruct at the same time as paying for the land they are less likely to ask for it as you could refuse to buy the land point blank the landowner would be there with you and he wouldn't want to lose the deal over this....jmo

[cheeryble]

1. Bribes not necessary at LO.

2. The SCB guy paid double what's necessary to "expedite" a transaction and that sounds odd unless something was not kosher.

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Edited February 21, 2014 by cheeryble

[UKJASE]

the land office said they weren't happy about doing usufructs, but many farangs wanted them, so if they insisted they will do it, but for 10k

i spoke to my accountant who said the fee at our land office is 10k, plus i have been contacted by one member on here who said his fee a few years back was 10 k, so it seems that is the necessary money

not sure what would have happened if i insisted that they had to do it, and it was their job etc etc..... but as i wanted this so badly i unwillingly put the 10 k into the brown envelop they kindly provided

the most i could do to offer any sort of objection was make sure a good few people in the busy land office saw me counting out the 10 grand, twice, and putting it in the envelope

when all is said and done though, 10 k for a piece of land worth a good deal more than that, has got to be money well spent

[JesseFrank]

the land office said they weren't happy about doing usufructs, but many farangs wanted them, so if they insisted they will do it, but for 10k

i spoke to my accountant who said the fee at our land office is 10k, plus i have been contacted by one member on here who said his fee a few years back was 10 k, so it seems that is the necessary money

not sure what would have happened if i insisted that they had to do it, and it was their job etc etc..... but as i wanted this so badly i unwillingly put the 10 k into the brown envelop they kindly provided

the most i could do to offer any sort of objection was make sure a good few people in the busy land office saw me counting out the 10 grand, twice, and putting it in the envelope

when all is said and done though, 10 k for a piece of land worth a good deal more than that, has got to be money well spent

I don't see where the 10K add anything to the value of the land .

[JesseFrank]

Hey guys - as the OP i just wanted to share with you what happened to us in the end regarding my worries in the opening post

today we just got back from the hua hin land office and now have my name on the back of the chanoot, in the form of a usufruct

this entitles me to access the land for the rest of my days, regardless of the wife's mood

this of course makes it near impossible for my wife to sell, or borrow money from the bank using the chanoot as collateral

this has given me the security i wanted so that we can start to build the house

cost at the land office was 75B for official paperwork, plus grease money of 10k to get the ball rolling

tea money to official payment ratio was very high in this instance, but i have got my peace of mind so i am happy

thanks again to all those who offered advice and shared their experiences.

this of course makes it near impossible for my wife to sell, or borrow money from the bank using the chanoot as collateral

Of course this inconvenience disappears when the holder of the usufruct dies for some reason, not that there are known cases where this happened in Thailand , or when the maximum term of 30 years has expired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usufruct

Thailand

In Thailand the Commercial and Civil Code was based on European civil code, also recognized the notion of usufruct at clauses 1417 to 1428. The usufruct can be done for lifetime or a maximum of 30 years according to the law. It needs to be registered at the local land department to have full effect on third parties, on title deed Nor Sor Sam or higher.

Edited February 21, 2014 by JesseFrank

[FiftyTwo]

Hey guys - as the OP i just wanted to share with you what happened to us in the end regarding my worries in the opening post

today we just got back from the hua hin land office and now have my name on the back of the chanoot, in the form of a usufruct

this entitles me to access the land for the rest of my days, regardless of the wife's mood

this of course makes it near impossible for my wife to sell, or borrow money from the bank using the chanoot as collateral

this has given me the security i wanted so that we can start to build the house

cost at the land office was 75B for official paperwork, plus grease money of 10k to get the ball rolling

tea money to official payment ratio was very high in this instance, but i have got my peace of mind so i am happy

thanks again to all those who offered advice and shared their experiences.

Well done, you are now worth money dead.

I prefer to finance large purchases in Thailand with loans from banks.

That makes me worth money alive.

Edited February 21, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[PattayaPhom]

It is probably a bit late now but you could perhaps (if your partner agrees) register a mortgage against the title. You being the Mortgagor. Then if she later wants to take over the land the mortgage would need to be repaid to you, before it could be removed from the Chanote.

As the land is collatoral for the loan and a foreigner canot own land how can he be the mortgagor, as if she defaults the land is then given to the lender?. If thiss was a possibility it would have been exploited years ago

[JesseFrank]

It is probably a bit late now but you could perhaps (if your partner agrees) register a mortgage against the title. You being the Mortgagor. Then if she later wants to take over the land the mortgage would need to be repaid to you, before it could be removed from the Chanote.

As the land is collatoral for the loan and a foreigner canot own land how can he be the mortgagor, as if she defaults the land is then given to the lender?. If thiss was a possibility it would have been exploited years ago

I guess same situation as heritage law, a foreigner can inherit land, but is obligated to sell it in a time period set by the court . In most case within 1 year.

[PattayaPhom]

It is probably a bit late now but you could perhaps (if your partner agrees) register a mortgage against the title. You being the Mortgagor. Then if she later wants to take over the land the mortgage would need to be repaid to you, before it could be removed from the Chanote.

As the land is collatoral for the loan and a foreigner canot own land how can he be the mortgagor, as if she defaults the land is then given to the lender?. If thiss was a possibility it would have been exploited years ago

I guess same situation as heritage law, a foreigner can inherit land, but is obligated to sell it in a time period set by the court . In most case within 1 year.

No, it cant be done and anyone that thinks it can is dreaming....Go to any land office and see the amount of 3% interest per month loans being attached to Chanotes. Do you think they would let any Foreigner get in on the act of easy money. Believe it cant be done

[JesseFrank]

It is probably a bit late now but you could perhaps (if your partner agrees) register a mortgage against the title. You being the Mortgagor. Then if she later wants to take over the land the mortgage would need to be repaid to you, before it could be removed from the Chanote.

As the land is collatoral for the loan and a foreigner canot own land how can he be the mortgagor, as if she defaults the land is then given to the lender?. If thiss was a possibility it would have been exploited years ago

I guess same situation as heritage law, a foreigner can inherit land, but is obligated to sell it in a time period set by the court . In most case within 1 year.

No, it cant be done and anyone that thinks it can is dreaming....Go to any land office and see the amount of 3% interest per month loans being attached to Chanotes. Do you think they would let any Foreigner get in on the act of easy money. Believe it cant be done

.Go to any land office and see the amount of 3% interest per month loans being attached to Chanotes

I don't understand what exactly you mean with your last post, but I'm a mortgagor on the land I built my house on, and I'm registered on the back of the Chanote. The loan contract is also stamped by the landoffice, and if I recall correctly, it cost a 0.3% fee.

The heritage law that a foreigner can inherit land is 100% a fact.. Google will be your friend.

Edited February 22, 2014 by JesseFrank

[PattayaPhom]

I am fully aware of the fact you can inherit the land and the need to sell within 12 months, this isnt relevant. In the event that the loan is in default, you are saying the land is placed in your name?

[JesseFrank]

I am fully aware of the fact you can inherit the land and the need to sell within 12 months, this isnt relevant. In the event that the loan is in default, you are saying the land is placed in your name?

Well since the loan contract is made up by a Thai lawyer and and certified by the landoffice, I believe that is indeed the case.

But I'm willing to agree with your comment if you provide a source that says it isn't so, instead of just trying to be the smart arse.

By the way I never said it would be placed in my name. I said that I would have the right to sell it, same as with a heritage, where the land also isn't placed in the foreigners name.

Edited February 22, 2014 by JesseFrank

[PattayaPhom]

I am fully aware of the fact you can inherit the land and the need to sell within 12 months, this isnt relevant. In the event that the loan is in default, you are saying the land is placed in your name?

Well since the loan contract is made up by a Thai lawyer and and certified by the landoffice, I believe that is indeed the case.

But I'm willing to agree with your comment if you provide a source that says it isn't so, instead of just trying to be the smart arse.

By the way I never said it would be placed in my name. I said that I would have the right to sell it, same as with a heritage, where the land also isn't placed in the foreigners name.

Not trying to be smart If the land is in your wifes/partners name, how do you have the right to sell it?....if she defaults on the loan?...but is she actually paying you monthly repayments....Lawyers will draw up any BS contract for a fee. Explain exactly how the situation works....you split from your partner, then what happens?

[JesseFrank]

I am fully aware of the fact you can inherit the land and the need to sell within 12 months, this isnt relevant. In the event that the loan is in default, you are saying the land is placed in your name?

Well since the loan contract is made up by a Thai lawyer and and certified by the landoffice, I believe that is indeed the case.

But I'm willing to agree with your comment if you provide a source that says it isn't so, instead of just trying to be the smart arse.

By the way I never said it would be placed in my name. I said that I would have the right to sell it, same as with a heritage, where the land also isn't placed in the foreigners name.

Not trying to be smart If the land is in your wifes/partners name, how do you have the right to sell it?....if she defaults on the loan?...but is she actually paying you monthly repayments....Lawyers will draw up any BS contract for a fee. Explain exactly how the situation works....you split from your partner, then what happens?

Where did I mention that my land is in the name of my wife or gf ?

Since you can not make your claims hard with a source I will do it with mine.By the way, he who provides the loan is the mortgagee, not the mortgagor.

http://www.pattayacityexpatsclub.com/expats/docs/aquiring%20a%20house%20Using%20a%20Lease%20and%20Mortgage.pdf

Buying a House in the Name of a Thai

This method can be done with your spouse, partner, or any Thai citizen being the owner. You do not

give the money to the Thai pers

on. Instead, you loan them the money and record a mortgage in your

name on the Chanote (title deed) at the land office. Until the mortgage is paid, the property cannot

be

sold without the mortgage holder’s permission. The mortgage holder usually takes phy

sical

possession of the Chanote while the mortgage is outstanding. Foreigners may legally loan money

and take a mortgage on the property.

http://www.bsalaw.co.th/en/property/faq.html

Can a foreigner hold a mortgage on land in Thailand?

A foreign individual can hold a mortgage on land in Thailand. The Land Code only prohibits foreign ownership of land. There is no similar provision regarding a foreigner being a mortgagee. Under Thai law, in the event of foreclosure of a mortgage, the mortgagee must sell the land at public auction. A foreign mortgagee could not purchase the land at the auction, but he can retain the proceeds of the sale to repay the debt secured by the mortgage. So, a foreigner's holding a mortgage on land does not risk violating the prohibition on foreign ownership.

Over to you

Edited February 22, 2014 by JesseFrank

[taninthai]

I reckon after you spent loads more money fighting something like this in the court ,you would simply be laughed out the courtroom ,especially if you have no records/bank statements of money being lent and repayments being made.

Jmo of coarse

[FiftyTwo]

I reckon after you spent loads more money fighting something like this in the court ,you would simply be laughed out the courtroom ,especially if you have no records/bank statements of money being lent and repayments being made.

Jmo of coarse

Not to mention contracts between husband and wife are not enforceable in Thailand.

Better to have a bank as home loan provider.

[taninthai]

^

Only problem with that is interest which is making overpriced land/houses even more expensive.

Seriously what a headache it all is.

I am gonna try and purchase some land towards the end of the year and go the usufruct route not cause I don't trust my misses but more for if she passes away before me,if they request tea money for usufruct I will not pay and just forget the usufruct ,it's simple I am not going spend my entire life savings and live by the rule don't invest more than your willing to lose.

I obviously fully trust the misses or I wouldn't be with her ,we are the same age and that's why my only worry is that she passes away before me.

[cheeryble]

I agree do not pay a bribe to get a usufruct.....paying 10k is ridiculous, and makes life unnecessarily expensive for those not so well off who now become targets. bear in mind if you do not do the transaction because you can't get a usufruct the government loses as substantial sum in potential tax, which would mean corrupt demanders of a bribe are essentially stealing from the Thai govt tax take.

There is nothing against guidelines in issuing such a usufruct otherwise the head of XXXXXXX land office (a reasonably large one) would not have recommended it to me without us even mentioning it.

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Edited February 23, 2014 by cheeryble

[thehelmsman]

The OP was concerned about the wife not being able to kick him out iof the house. Now consider this - You live in your girlfriends villiage, not your village, your girlfriends village and you two have a falling out and you would remain living there. <deleted> Now I'm not the most experienced guy on this forum, not by a long shot BUT I'd never remain in same village with pissed off G/F. Belonging to the village puts her in a huge advantage. I made sure the truck is in my name just for such a day if it should ever come.

[JesseFrank]

Also keep in mind that an Usufruct between husband and wife has no value, since it can be canceled by either party at any given time.

[Arkady]

A usufruct agreement seems better for this situation, if your local land office wil agree to it - most will in Bkk or developed areas but rural areas may be sticky. It gives you the right to sublet the property and can be for your lifetime. Normally you should do this before getting legally married, since any legal agreement between man and wife (including marriage - LOL) can be voided by a court on the basis of coertion. The land office may require a waiting period of 3 months, so that the Thai partner doesn't appear to have been rushed into signing away her rights by an unscrupulous foreigner.

To do a usufruct or lease agreement you and your partner should have signed the declaration in the land office for Thais with foreign spouses (or cohabiting with foreigners) that the money used to purchase the property was the Thais and that the foreigner has no claim on it. I don't know if you can do this retroactively, if you didn't do it when you bought the land, or if it will be a problem to do a usufruct or lease,. if you didn't do it. I suppose you could say you had only just met since she bought the land but the officials might refuse to register the usufruct or lease in that in order to protest the property of a Thai woman against a foreign chancer she has just met.

You need a lawyer who is used to dealing with your local land office to handle this. Sunbelt in Bkk did a great job of a usufruct for me a few years ago. If you are in Isaan, Isaan Lawyers might be a better choice.

[Arkady]

Also keep in mind that an Usufruct between husband and wife has no value, since it can be canceled by either party at any given time.

It is not quite as simple as that. The Civil & Commercial Code provides for a contract between man and wife to be voided, if there is evidence of coertion or the use of undue influence, but you would have to go to court and present the evidence to have the agreement voided. Nevertheless, if you can, if is better to make the agreement before you marry, since the law doesn't cover common law spouses.

[FiftyTwo]

Also keep in mind that an Usufruct between husband and wife has no value, since it can be canceled by either party at any given time.

It is not quite as simple as that. The Civil & Commercial Code provides for a contract between man and wife to be voided, if there is evidence of coertion or the use of undue influence, but you would have to go to court and present the evidence to have the agreement voided. Nevertheless, if you can, if is better to make the agreement before you marry, since the law doesn't cover common law spouses.

Not true.

Thai wife can turn up at the land office with ID card and Tabian Baan book in hand and cancel it on her own at any time.

Seen it done. No questions asked.

[Arkady]

If you have seen this done, I would not dispute it but would love to know under what law or ministerial regulation this was done or why the officials registered the leases or usufructs at all, if they considered them unlawful agreements that can be cancelled unilaterally by the lessor. The lessee could sue them in the Administrative court for unlawfully cancelling the agreement or for registering an unlawful agreement without disclosing it was unlawful and could be cancelled.

Incidentally, in what capacity did you witness this at the land office?

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