Rice-pledging scheme: Thai farmers driven to despair

[Prbkk]

Very interesting and well-written op ed piece in today's BP on the scheme ( p7). Khun Wichit, Senior Economics Editor. Well worth a read for those with access to a hard copy. Very damning.

[marstons]

Trying to feel sorry for these farmers who voted for Thaksin and his clone, but am having a hard time doing

so. They voted for a liar who told them they would become rich, and now they are paying the price.....

Who ever they vote for they will be voting for a liar either way their rice was to expensive and would not have sold on the free market anyway so they would not have been paid. Also some did abuse it by bringing in crap rice over the border from Laos and claiming the subsidy as it being Thai rice.

[djjamie]

Thailand's ability to feed itself in the future is uncertain, as it was before the present controversy, with the rice farmers aging and retiring and their children turning their backs on the family farm due to the hard work and low profit, are going into other career fields.

The PTP must take responsibilities for their mistakes up to the point (2) months ago ehen they became a caretaker government and were no longer allowed to borrow money to pay the nations farmers.

The EC must approve any request for a loan to the government and for the last two months have rejected all the PTP loan request to pay the farmers, as the EC has actively championed the protest request to cancel the election. As voiced on this forum the opposition to the government, are actively backing the EC refusal to pay the farmers, that are being held as political hostages, in the hopes they will vote against the current government. The EC must bear the responsibilities for denying payment to a million and a half Thai farmers (only for political gain)!

Many of the nation farmers will leave the rice fields and look to more profitable crops or into other occupations to support themselves and their families!

Thailand will end up the loser in the long run with a vastly decreased national rice production, by the EC failure to approve the loan to pay the farmers!

Cheers

And that my friend is called supply and demand and progress.

They will turn to other profitable crops which they will be able to sustain them and their family. With the extra money they may be able to afford more nutritional foods such as meats, fruits, and vegetables which has actually been happening now with a declining trend in per capita rice consumption.

Demonizing the WORLD BANK

I remember on the 9th of October (5 days after rice farmers were not paid) last year the world bank said the scheme was incurring heavy losses and the Deputy PM defended Thailand and criticized the world bank saying the two-year pledging scheme for farmers cost the state only Bt200 billion. Mr Niwatthamrong ruled out a report that PT would have only Bt230 billion for rice purchases in the 2013/2014 crop, stating the Cabinet approved Bt270 billion for the scheme up until the end of February, 2014. That was a lie. But if it was not a lie then they had budgeted enough money and all would be good now? The rice farmers started waiting for payments from the 4th of January and even on that day the PTP were saying everything was OK. Doesn't sound like the EC's fault? If the PTP had taken the advice of the World Bank they would not be in this position today.

Demonizing IMF

I remember on the 12th of November (1 month and 8 days since rice farmers were not paid) last year IMF urged Thailand to drop its multibillion-dollar rice subsidy program. The the Finance Ministry said it hadn't seen the IMF report and wasn't worried about the subsidy program. The Commerce Minister Niwatthamrong Boonsongpaisal however did say something and that was surprise surprise refuting the claim, telling reporters last week that losses from the program “should be not over 100 billion baht a year.” That was a lie. If it wasn't a lie the rice farmers would be paid and all would be good now. 1 month and 8 days after rice farmers stopped getting paid the PTP said everything was still OK. Doesn't sound like the EC's fault. Had the PTP listened to the IMF they would not be in this position today.

Now we fast forward to today and even though the world bank had warned them. IMF had warned them. Even though the Deputy PM said they had budgeted for the 13/14 crop season. Even though the finance minster said "nothing to worry about". Even though the Commerce minister said he refuted the claim and demonized the IMF..drum roll...It is now the EC's fault that the rice farmers haven't been paid. PTP logic.

Unaccountability is the PTP's favorite dish. Followed for desert by blame. Washed down with a swig of propaganda so it can all be digested.

I do love your blind faith in this party though. It is admirable and worthy of a mention at the yearly PTP ministry of propaganda awards night.

I live in a rice growing village for almost a decade my view of rural Thailand is better than most, T.V.posters can see from their bar stool or out of the window of their local go go bar. Many of these clueless posters in their daily yellow tinted lies, states that PTP is at fault for Thailand no longer being the worlds top rice exporting country. I posted to the facts as I witness them here in the village,

In our family all our current crop of university students , 7 as we speak all will not be following their parents in to the family farm, that is a trend all over the country,due to the hard work, low pay that has kept Thailand as the top rice producing and rice exporting country in the world for 31 years off of the backs of the farmers.

Pray tell me with facts, how my propaganda (your word, not mine) is not more creditable than the excrement the Suthep sympathizer spread every day.on this forum, Your post kind of indicates you fancy yourself knowledgeable and clearly understand much about international Organization and procedures, if you are so "worldly" why do you not understand about international Democracies, constitutional rights, the rule of law and definition of terrorist activities are in the world and specific to Democracies, many on this forum believe that the Thai people do not deserve the rights they enjoyed in their home countries,and I simply believe that they do.

Do not quit your day job, as you could be an award winner on the American TV show "are you smarter than a fifth grader"

Common sense is not a gift, it is a punishment, when you have it you still have to deal with all those that don't.

Cheers

You may make some good points but you lose it all with your I am better than you attitude. Simply accusing people who don't agree with you as seeing life from a bar stool or a go-go bar shows you can not listen to another point of view. Your general condescending tone proves that you are in fact a lot worse than them.

Besides --- There is no windows in the go go bar I frequent. So it shows how much you know.

FYI - I applied for "are you smarter than a 5th grader" and they said I was not smart enough.

So they suggested I would be a perfect candidate for UDD membership. Unfortunately the UDD said I was too smart! Just can't get a break….

[hawker9000]

I am with with you. People, who don't have a lot, will always (100%) vote for the group who promises them help. These are poor people and we shouldn't expect them to think any longer term than it impacts them. We wouldn't. There was no promises of them becoming rich. I have never heard this, and I have been here a long time. My friends are protestors. Let's be real.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

So what are you implying ?? That the farmers are so stupid and shortsighted that they would sell their vote to Thaksin for 500 baht and some empty promises ?? Then Suthep would be right, with moronic populist programs luring short sighted farmers into voting for the person at the microphone, then they should not be voting. Because the net result which can clearly be seen now, is that Thailand goes down in flames

while the farmers are voting their pocketbook. I am positive that Thaksin studied the Perons in Argentina extensively, because they almost invented populist programs......

We are talking about rice not votes. I am agreement with the previous poster that the farmers are not voting out of avarice - only a more secure life. People who don't have a lot will always go with those who promise more. It is Human nature. When they are very poor, their scope is short term. They need food now and clothes for their kids now. If they were cheated, it is sad and not a day to be happy, because the person cheating them is someone you don't like. Instead, it is a sad day in "Mudville."

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Lots of mass starvation in Thailand was there? People running around naked and in rags due to their utter poverty? When was that exactly? Consider that nobody, NO ONE(!), ever thinks they have as much as they need! Even the truly rich don't think so, otherwise they'd quit trying to get richer...

Seems to me that people who worked on the land growing rice were better off when they could actually SELL IT! All these claims of mass starvation and dire hardship in the north notwithstanding, in a democracy, voters MUST be responsible for their votes, and be prepared to enjoy or suffer the consequences, whichever the case may be. Well, they bought the snake oil and got nothing but a tummy ache from it. Is it unrealistic to think that maybe they've learned a lesson? Hopefully not, but if not, they'll no doubt yet again have to bear the burden of a bad decision.

"I want to eat better", or "I want a new TV" is not an acceptable excuse. Most Thais, north, south, in or outside of Bangkok, wherever, could certainly make use of more than they have. That's not a good reason to put in place a government that will trample the rights of minorities, promote corruption, surrender its policy-making to a fugitive, and flout the law of the land (= constitution or charter). Nations rise or fall by the degree to which their societies see a reason to, and have the vision to, and the moral fortitude to, put aside their selfish interests and instead pursue the common good. Government factions that engage in populist policies to try & bribe the electorate to do otherwise definitely do make this more difficult than it should be (which is the whole idea), but the final responsibility for a worthwhile verdict rests with the jury, which is the electorate.

Democracy is not about confiscating all the wealth and redistributing it according the will of the "majority" and the ambitions of a political career elite. That's much nearer to socialism, and if that's what you're after, just man up and say so.

Edited January 30, 2014 by hawker9000

[kikoman]

Thailand's ability to feed itself in the future is uncertain, as it was before the present controversy, with the rice farmers aging and retiring and their children turning their backs on the family farm due to the hard work and low profit, are going into other career fields.

The PTP must take responsibilities for their mistakes up to the point (2) months ago ehen they became a caretaker government and were no longer allowed to borrow money to pay the nations farmers.

The EC must approve any request for a loan to the government and for the last two months have rejected all the PTP loan request to pay the farmers, as the EC has actively championed the protest request to cancel the election. As voiced on this forum the opposition to the government, are actively backing the EC refusal to pay the farmers, that are being held as political hostages, in the hopes they will vote against the current government. The EC must bear the responsibilities for denying payment to a million and a half Thai farmers (only for political gain)!

Many of the nation farmers will leave the rice fields and look to more profitable crops or into other occupations to support themselves and their families!

Thailand will end up the loser in the long run with a vastly decreased national rice production, by the EC failure to approve the loan to pay the farmers!

Cheers

And that my friend is called supply and demand and progress.

They will turn to other profitable crops which they will be able to sustain them and their family. With the extra money they may be able to afford more nutritional foods such as meats, fruits, and vegetables which has actually been happening now with a declining trend in per capita rice consumption.

Demonizing the WORLD BANK

I remember on the 9th of October (5 days after rice farmers were not paid) last year the world bank said the scheme was incurring heavy losses and the Deputy PM defended Thailand and criticized the world bank saying the two-year pledging scheme for farmers cost the state only Bt200 billion. Mr Niwatthamrong ruled out a report that PT would have only Bt230 billion for rice purchases in the 2013/2014 crop, stating the Cabinet approved Bt270 billion for the scheme up until the end of February, 2014. That was a lie. But if it was not a lie then they had budgeted enough money and all would be good now? The rice farmers started waiting for payments from the 4th of January and even on that day the PTP were saying everything was OK. Doesn't sound like the EC's fault? If the PTP had taken the advice of the World Bank they would not be in this position today.

Demonizing IMF

I remember on the 12th of November (1 month and 8 days since rice farmers were not paid) last year IMF urged Thailand to drop its multibillion-dollar rice subsidy program. The the Finance Ministry said it hadn't seen the IMF report and wasn't worried about the subsidy program. The Commerce Minister Niwatthamrong Boonsongpaisal however did say something and that was surprise surprise refuting the claim, telling reporters last week that losses from the program “should be not over 100 billion baht a year.” That was a lie. If it wasn't a lie the rice farmers would be paid and all would be good now. 1 month and 8 days after rice farmers stopped getting paid the PTP said everything was still OK. Doesn't sound like the EC's fault. Had the PTP listened to the IMF they would not be in this position today.

Now we fast forward to today and even though the world bank had warned them. IMF had warned them. Even though the Deputy PM said they had budgeted for the 13/14 crop season. Even though the finance minster said "nothing to worry about". Even though the Commerce minister said he refuted the claim and demonized the IMF..drum roll...It is now the EC's fault that the rice farmers haven't been paid. PTP logic.

Unaccountability is the PTP's favorite dish. Followed for desert by blame. Washed down with a swig of propaganda so it can all be digested.

I do love your blind faith in this party though. It is admirable and worthy of a mention at the yearly PTP ministry of propaganda awards night.

I live in a rice growing village for almost a decade my view of rural Thailand is better than most, T.V.posters can see from their bar stool or out of the window of their local go go bar. Many of these clueless posters in their daily yellow tinted lies, states that PTP is at fault for Thailand no longer being the worlds top rice exporting country. I posted to the facts as I witness them here in the village,

In our family all our current crop of university students , 7 as we speak all will not be following their parents in to the family farm, that is a trend all over the country,due to the hard work, low pay that has kept Thailand as the top rice producing and rice exporting country in the world for 31 years off of the backs of the farmers.

Pray tell me with facts, how my propaganda (your word, not mine) is not more creditable than the excrement the Suthep sympathizer spread every day.on this forum, Your post kind of indicates you fancy yourself knowledgeable and clearly understand much about international Organization and procedures, if you are so "worldly" why do you not understand about international Democracies, constitutional rights, the rule of law and definition of terrorist activities are in the world and specific to Democracies, many on this forum believe that the Thai people do not deserve the rights they enjoyed in their home countries,and I simply believe that they do.

Do not quit your day job, as you could be an award winner on the American TV show "are you smarter than a fifth grader"

Common sense is not a gift, it is a punishment, when you have it you still have to deal with all those that don't.

Cheers

You may make some good points but you lose it all with your I am better than you attitude. Simply accusing people who don't agree with you as seeing life from a bar stool or a go-go bar shows you can not listen to another point of view. Your general condescending tone proves that you are in fact a lot worse than them.

I am not running for most popular poster, PM, or anything, I just post to my opinion, It is immaterial to me how my post are perceived by the Suthep supporters.

As I have heard the rice farmers referred to as being uneducated and/or to dumb to vote correctly, the poster I was posting my response to, disliked my comment that the EC must be held responsible for the farmers suffering because of non-payment for their rice for the last two months since the dissolution of the house and the government acting in a caretaker capacity until a new government is formed.

PTP must bear the responsibility for non-payment up to the point they became the caretaker government, the EC is the "only" agency that is allowed to approve a loan, and the EC must shoulder the responsibility for those farmers rice, that is in the care, control and in government warehouses. The farmers are not being paid solely for political reasons of hoping for a back lash vote against PTP, for no other reason!

Cheers

[edwinchester]

Thailand's ability to feed itself in the future is uncertain, as it was before the present controversy, with the rice farmers aging and retiring and their children turning their backs on the family farm due to the hard work and low profit, are going into other career fields.

The PTP must take responsibilities for their mistakes up to the point (2) months ago ehen they became a caretaker government and were no longer allowed to borrow money to pay the nations farmers.

The EC must approve any request for a loan to the government and for the last two months have rejected all the PTP loan request to pay the farmers, as the EC has actively championed the protest request to cancel the election. As voiced on this forum the opposition to the government, are actively backing the EC refusal to pay the farmers, that are being held as political hostages, in the hopes they will vote against the current government. The EC must bear the responsibilities for denying payment to a million and a half Thai farmers (only for political gain)!

Many of the nation farmers will leave the rice fields and look to more profitable crops or into other occupations to support themselves and their families!

Thailand will end up the loser in the long run with a vastly decreased national rice production, by the EC failure to approve the loan to pay the farmers!

Cheers

And that my friend is called supply and demand and progress.

They will turn to other profitable crops which they will be able to sustain them and their family. With the extra money they may be able to afford more nutritional foods such as meats, fruits, and vegetables which has actually been happening now with a declining trend in per capita rice consumption.

Demonizing the WORLD BANK

I remember on the 9th of October (5 days after rice farmers were not paid) last year the world bank said the scheme was incurring heavy losses and the Deputy PM defended Thailand and criticized the world bank saying the two-year pledging scheme for farmers cost the state only Bt200 billion. Mr Niwatthamrong ruled out a report that PT would have only Bt230 billion for rice purchases in the 2013/2014 crop, stating the Cabinet approved Bt270 billion for the scheme up until the end of February, 2014. That was a lie. But if it was not a lie then they had budgeted enough money and all would be good now? The rice farmers started waiting for payments from the 4th of January and even on that day the PTP were saying everything was OK. Doesn't sound like the EC's fault? If the PTP had taken the advice of the World Bank they would not be in this position today.

Demonizing IMF

I remember on the 12th of November (1 month and 8 days since rice farmers were not paid) last year IMF urged Thailand to drop its multibillion-dollar rice subsidy program. The the Finance Ministry said it hadn't seen the IMF report and wasn't worried about the subsidy program. The Commerce Minister Niwatthamrong Boonsongpaisal however did say something and that was surprise surprise refuting the claim, telling reporters last week that losses from the program “should be not over 100 billion baht a year.” That was a lie. If it wasn't a lie the rice farmers would be paid and all would be good now. 1 month and 8 days after rice farmers stopped getting paid the PTP said everything was still OK. Doesn't sound like the EC's fault. Had the PTP listened to the IMF they would not be in this position today.

Now we fast forward to today and even though the world bank had warned them. IMF had warned them. Even though the Deputy PM said they had budgeted for the 13/14 crop season. Even though the finance minster said "nothing to worry about". Even though the Commerce minister said he refuted the claim and demonized the IMF..drum roll...It is now the EC's fault that the rice farmers haven't been paid. PTP logic.

Unaccountability is the PTP's favorite dish. Followed for desert by blame. Washed down with a swig of propaganda so it can all be digested.

I do love your blind faith in this party though. It is admirable and worthy of a mention at the yearly PTP ministry of propaganda awards night.

I live in a rice growing village for almost a decade my view of rural Thailand is better than most, T.V.posters can see from their bar stool or out of the window of their local go go bar. Many of these clueless posters in their daily yellow tinted lies, states that PTP is at fault for Thailand no longer being the worlds top rice exporting country. I posted to the facts as I witness them here in the village,

In our family all our current crop of university students , 7 as we speak all will not be following their parents in to the family farm, that is a trend all over the country,due to the hard work, low pay that has kept Thailand as the top rice producing and rice exporting country in the world for 31 years off of the backs of the farmers.

Pray tell me with facts, how my propaganda (your word, not mine) is not more creditable than the excrement the Suthep sympathizer spread every day.on this forum, Your post kind of indicates you fancy yourself knowledgeable and clearly understand much about international Organization and procedures, if you are so "worldly" why do you not understand about international Democracies, constitutional rights, the rule of law and definition of terrorist activities are in the world and specific to Democracies, many on this forum believe that the Thai people do not deserve the rights they enjoyed in their home countries,and I simply believe that they do.

Do not quit your day job, as you could be an award winner on the American TV show "are you smarter than a fifth grader"

Common sense is not a gift, it is a punishment, when you have it you still have to deal with all those that don't.

Cheers

Thailand has never been the top rice producing nation.

It is sixth behind China India Indonesia Bangladesh and Vietnam. It produces approximately one sixth that of China. It used to be the worlds largest exporter but has fallen to third place mainly due to pricing itself out of the market.

[hawker9000]

Oh, I see. So this was the plan all along ... that the price to be paid to the farmers would be more than any realistic market price, so that the government would then, by design, go out and secure loans to fund the difference. Gee, that must've been buried somewhere in the fine print. There don't seem to be many people aware of it... Hmmm. And so now it's your position that the EC is refusing to carry out this program as it was originally planned.

Yeah, right.

You're flailing to try and reassign blame for a short-sighted, sure-to-backfire economic policy from a self-serving political party which designed it purely for its own ends, to another agency whose responsibility is not to allow the caretaker government to undertake new, not previously approved, initiatives, such as these loans. The EC isn't killing the rice-pledging scheme, which didn't include these huge loans. It was always bad policy and is now simply collapsing under its own weight, as the government was warned it would. The EC correctly asserts that it can't take sides and become complicit. It's simply saying the rice-pledging scheme WAS prior policy and MAY therefore be carried out, but that DIDN'T include any provision for these loans. They're NOT approving the loans because they CAN'T (legally) approve the loans.

[Mosha]

Depends if the one offering 10k was cash now or 13k in 6 months ... me id take the 10 and reinvest it for the 6mths spend say 5k reinvesting and make another 10k thats 15k cash in the hand by the time the 13k pays up ... no brainer

Hindsights a wonderful thing.

[Mosha]

On Sunday the rice farmers should recite this saying before voting.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

[DGIE]

Trying to feel sorry for these farmers who voted for Thaksin and his clone, but am having a hard time doing

so. They voted for a liar who told them they would become rich, and now they are paying the price.....

Maybe they will do the opposite this time by full force. Farmers won't vote for those who made their lives miserable. Instead, they will vote for the other party

[DGIE]

Thailand has never been the top rice producing nation.

It is sixth behind China India Indonesia Bangladesh and Vietnam. It produces approximately one sixth that of China. It used to be the worlds largest exporter but has fallen to third place mainly due to pricing itself out of the market.

If your thought is true, I wonder why China had imported rice from Thailand?

[edwinchester]

Thailand has never been the top rice producing nation.

It is sixth behind China India Indonesia Bangladesh and Vietnam. It produces approximately one sixth that of China. It used to be the worlds largest exporter but has fallen to third place mainly due to pricing itself out of the market.

If your thought is true, I wonder why China had imported rice from Thailand?

Do you know just how many people live in China?

It has a population about 20 times that of Thailand and needs to import some of it's supplies simple as that.

Try looking up a list of the worlds top rice producers if you have any doubt as the information is freely available.

[gemguy]

OK......so it says that some farmers are not being paid by the Government under the rice pledging program..

What happened to private rice buyers and companies that normally buy the rice and more or less set the market price???

There must still be traders and or companies that want to buy the rice that is currently being grown and ready to be sold in say 2 or 3 months from now.

The farmers can still sell to who ever they choose ...right??

They did not have to sell to the government in the first place...correct?

If someone offered you 8-10,000bht for something and just up the road somebody else said I will give you 13-15,000bht who would you choose?

Now that all too many of them are not being paid properly then I surmise many of them will go back to selling for a lower cash price.....same as before......and never vote again for the Red shirt party.

As far as I understand there never was and probably never will be any big profit or lucrative profit for the rice farmers of south east asia.

[Ricardo]

Depends if the one offering 10k was cash now or 13k in 6 months ... me id take the 10 and reinvest it for the 6mths spend say 5k reinvesting and make another 10k thats 15k cash in the hand by the time the 13k pays up ... no brainer

If you know how to turn 10k into 15k in six months, I'm all ears.

I got an email from the USA, some guy called Maddoff I believe, offering just such a deal via his Nigerian subsidiary ...

If it looks too-good-to-be-true, then it probably is !

It will certainly come, with a shed-load of risk, attached.

[Ricardo]

Very interesting and well-written op ed piece in today's BP on the scheme ( p7). Khun Wichit, Senior Economics Editor. Well worth a read for those with access to a hard copy. Very damning.

I was able to access a (shortened ?) version of the article on-line, worth reading, although anyone who's followed this topic on TV for the past few years would also be aware of this stuff.

Sad that so much has been lost on this scheme, and a very clear warning, why the strictest oversight will be necessary, if the infrastructure-spending is permitted to go-ahead.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Ricardo

[Old Man River]

I am with with you. People, who don't have a lot, will always (100%) vote for the group who promises them help. These are poor people and we shouldn't expect them to think any longer term than it impacts them. We wouldn't. There was no promises of them becoming rich. I have never heard this, and I have been here a long time. My friends are protestors. Let's be real.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

So what are you implying ?? That the farmers are so stupid and shortsighted that they would sell their vote to Thaksin for 500 baht and some empty promises ?? Then Suthep would be right, with moronic populist programs luring short sighted farmers into voting for the person at the microphone, then they should not be voting. Because the net result which can clearly be seen now, is that Thailand goes down in flames

while the farmers are voting their pocketbook. I am positive that Thaksin studied the Perons in Argentina extensively, because they almost invented populist programs......

We are talking about rice not votes. I am agreement with the previous poster that the farmers are not voting out of avarice - only a more secure life. People who don't have a lot will always go with those who promise more. It is Human nature. When they are very poor, their scope is short term. They need food now and clothes for their kids now. If they were cheated, it is sad and not a day to be happy, because the person cheating them is someone you don't like. Instead, it is a sad day in "Mudville."

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Lots of mass starvation in Thailand was there? People running around naked and in rags due to their utter poverty? When was that exactly? Consider that nobody, NO ONE(!), ever thinks they have as much as they need! Even the truly rich don't think so, otherwise they'd quit trying to get richer...

Seems to me that people who worked on the land growing rice were better off when they could actually SELL IT! All these claims of mass starvation and dire hardship in the north notwithstanding, in a democracy, voters MUST be responsible for their votes, and be prepared to enjoy or suffer the consequences, whichever the case may be. Well, they bought the snake oil and got nothing but a tummy ache from it. Is it unrealistic to think that maybe they've learned a lesson? Hopefully not, but if not, they'll no doubt yet again have to bear the burden of a bad decision.

"I want to eat better", or "I want a new TV" is not an acceptable excuse. Most Thais, north, south, in or outside of Bangkok, wherever, could certainly make use of more than they have. That's not a good reason to put in place a government that will trample the rights of minorities, promote corruption, surrender its policy-making to a fugitive, and flout the law of the land (= constitution or charter). Nations rise or fall by the degree to which their societies see a reason to, and have the vision to, and the moral fortitude to, put aside their selfish interests and instead pursue the common good. Government factions that engage in populist policies to try & bribe the electorate to do otherwise definitely do make this more difficult than it should be (which is the whole idea), but the final responsibility for a worthwhile verdict rests with the jury, which is the electorate.

Democracy is not about confiscating all the wealth and redistributing it according the will of the "majority" and the ambitions of a political career elite. That's much nearer to socialism, and if that's what you're after, just man up and say so.

I am confused as to who you are disagreeing with, but anyway, the rice farmers could actually SELL IT. Why take this on themselves when your favorite government has offered them more? They grabbed it and I am sure would again,not knowing that your favorite government would stiff them on the payment. That's nearer to fraud and man up and say so. Now that they are caught in your favorite government's net, the only chance they have is to keep them in power until they get paid.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[hawker9000]

We are talking about rice not votes. I am agreement with the previous poster that the farmers are not voting out of avarice - only a more secure life. People who don't have a lot will always go with those who promise more. It is Human nature. When they are very poor, their scope is short term. They need food now and clothes for their kids now. If they were cheated, it is sad and not a day to be happy, because the person cheating them is someone you don't like. Instead, it is a sad day in "Mudville."

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Lots of mass starvation in Thailand was there? People running around naked and in rags due to their utter poverty? When was that exactly? Consider that nobody, NO ONE(!), ever thinks they have as much as they need! Even the truly rich don't think so, otherwise they'd quit trying to get richer...

Seems to me that people who worked on the land growing rice were better off when they could actually SELL IT! All these claims of mass starvation and dire hardship in the north notwithstanding, in a democracy, voters MUST be responsible for their votes, and be prepared to enjoy or suffer the consequences, whichever the case may be. Well, they bought the snake oil and got nothing but a tummy ache from it. Is it unrealistic to think that maybe they've learned a lesson? Hopefully not, but if not, they'll no doubt yet again have to bear the burden of a bad decision.

"I want to eat better", or "I want a new TV" is not an acceptable excuse. Most Thais, north, south, in or outside of Bangkok, wherever, could certainly make use of more than they have. That's not a good reason to put in place a government that will trample the rights of minorities, promote corruption, surrender its policy-making to a fugitive, and flout the law of the land (= constitution or charter). Nations rise or fall by the degree to which their societies see a reason to, and have the vision to, and the moral fortitude to, put aside their selfish interests and instead pursue the common good. Government factions that engage in populist policies to try & bribe the electorate to do otherwise definitely do make this more difficult than it should be (which is the whole idea), but the final responsibility for a worthwhile verdict rests with the jury, which is the electorate.

Democracy is not about confiscating all the wealth and redistributing it according the will of the "majority" and the ambitions of a political career elite. That's much nearer to socialism, and if that's what you're after, just man up and say so.

I am confused as to who you are disagreeing with, but anyway, the rice farmers could actually SELL IT. Why take this on themselves when your favorite government has offered them more? They grabbed it and I am sure would again,not knowing that your favorite government would stiff them on the payment. That's nearer to fraud and man up and say so. Now that they are caught in your favorite government's net, the only chance they have is to keep them in power until they get paid.

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Yes, you are indeed confused.

[Robby nz]

Seems the minister of white lies called of the borrowing auction yesterday because the banks werent interested, so no money for the farmers yet.

Says he will have another go Tuesday and up the offer to 40 billion.

Wonder how he thinks he can get 40 if the banks wouldn't lend 20 ?

[mikemac]

"Yes, you are indeed confused."............................confused perhaps but he has a point. The people of Thailand who are suffering the most are at the mercy of a merciless regime and are stuck in a very vicious circle. If they stick with the "devil they know" they are in for more heartbreak.

[Old Man River]

We are talking about rice not votes. I am agreement with the previous poster that the farmers are not voting out of avarice - only a more secure life. People who don't have a lot will always go with those who promise more. It is Human nature. When they are very poor, their scope is short term. They need food now and clothes for their kids now. If they were cheated, it is sad and not a day to be happy, because the person cheating them is someone you don't like. Instead, it is a sad day in "Mudville."

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Lots of mass starvation in Thailand was there? People running around naked and in rags due to their utter poverty? When was that exactly? Consider that nobody, NO ONE(!), ever thinks they have as much as they need! Even the truly rich don't think so, otherwise they'd quit trying to get richer...

Seems to me that people who worked on the land growing rice were better off when they could actually SELL IT! All these claims of mass starvation and dire hardship in the north notwithstanding, in a democracy, voters MUST be responsible for their votes, and be prepared to enjoy or suffer the consequences, whichever the case may be. Well, they bought the snake oil and got nothing but a tummy ache from it. Is it unrealistic to think that maybe they've learned a lesson? Hopefully not, but if not, they'll no doubt yet again have to bear the burden of a bad decision.

"I want to eat better", or "I want a new TV" is not an acceptable excuse. Most Thais, north, south, in or outside of Bangkok, wherever, could certainly make use of more than they have. That's not a good reason to put in place a government that will trample the rights of minorities, promote corruption, surrender its policy-making to a fugitive, and flout the law of the land (= constitution or charter). Nations rise or fall by the degree to which their societies see a reason to, and have the vision to, and the moral fortitude to, put aside their selfish interests and instead pursue the common good. Government factions that engage in populist policies to try & bribe the electorate to do otherwise definitely do make this more difficult than it should be (which is the whole idea), but the final responsibility for a worthwhile verdict rests with the jury, which is the electorate.

Democracy is not about confiscating all the wealth and redistributing it according the will of the "majority" and the ambitions of a political career elite. That's much nearer to socialism, and if that's what you're after, just man up and say so.

I am confused as to who you are disagreeing with, but anyway, the rice farmers could actually SELL IT. Why take this on themselves when your favorite government has offered them more? They grabbed it and I am sure would again,not knowing that your favorite government would stiff them on the payment. That's nearer to fraud and man up and say so. Now that they are caught in your favorite government's net, the only chance they have is to keep them in power until they get paid.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Yes, you are indeed confused.

Now I understand your confusion. This topic is about the rice program and about government defaults and how farmers can, potentially, lose their farms, not about televisions as you suggest, nor about democracy, socialism, etc.

You obviously have never done charity work and don't understand what motivates poor people and why the rice program has been so successful among the farmers until the government defaulted. Now they are stuck. People have pledged their farms to the BAAC and moneylenders to get supplies for their next harvest, but now cannot pay their loans due to the defaults. This is about livelihoods and day to day problems, not political economic theories like socialism. Get out of the Paragon and Emporium and go upcountry and do some charity work. You will be shocked how little they care about how they are going to get there next television.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[peterquixote]

I am in New Zealand. I married my Isaan wife three years ago.

We do not have a lot of money, she went out to work as a Thai kitchen hand.

We sent some money to my Father in Law near Maha Sarakham who has not been paid by

Thaksin for his rice.

We hate Shinawatra.

[peterquixote]

My wife just sent some money to her father in village Nong khu near Maha Sarakham.

He gave his rice to the pretty girl but she did not pay him.

My dear wife slaved in a kitchen in New Zealand to pay,

because of that criminal.

[peterquixote]

it breaks my heart. I send money to my poor father in law rice farmer Isaan

today

[gemguy]

The Thai rice farmers have always been in somewhat of a financial predicament long before the Thaksins came along with populist policies that persuaded them to vote for a seemingly Good Idea, at the time, while good ideas often run amuck anyhow.

Under the former rule of the monarchists they did not fare any better than they are now.

That is if you read your history concerning the plight of the Rice farmers in Thailand for the last 60 years or more.

All they ever received from the ruling Monarchists for 60 plus years was lip service and lectures

If the rice farmers of the world were to obtain a Sustainable and Profitable price for their rice crops then the end consumer would be whinging and whining about the continually rising price of rice at the retail level...relative to how much it really does cost , from crop to crop, to grow the rice and sell it for a reasonable and sustainable profit that does not have the farmers in debt all the time.

All too many of the Thai rice farmers have always been in debt or in and out of debt, as is the case in most of the rice farming nations.

You wonder why anyone would actually plant rice as a business venture as the profit is now and always has been meager...other than it will sell because it is the main food staple of South East Asia...and or the locals can eat it themselves and trade it for other commodities and food staples in their immediate areas.

The price the government promised to pay reflected a more realistic and sustainable price ( inflation adjusted ??? ) that would allow the rice farmers to make a decent enough living planting rice and continue to plant rice as an attractive farming venture.

Of course, in the background there was and always is the ever present ominous Thai politician skullduggery working its way into the scheme of things while the Government accounting and accountability slowly and inevitably goes side ways to the point where the same question is finally asked, sooner or later, as always: Where did the money go?

Bear in mind that many (most) of the farmers where paid and they did well or well enough by the program.

Now that the whole affair is thoroughly corrupted ( it takes time to thoroughly corrupt such a program ) you learn that all the more and more farmers are not receiving payment while most were paid previously and enjoyed the benefits of the program.

Yes, many opposed the scheme and pointed out the inevitable results ( given time ) and sure enough they were correct in their predictions ( not rocket science by any means )...but until more recently many farmers did well by the program ( better than before ) so the program was beneficial to many for some time.

If the money was there ( it never was completely there as no one knew exactly how much was really needed to sustain the program ) and if the allotted budget was actually administered correctly ( I am laughing also, believe me ) then the subsidy program is workable to a degree ( far from perfect of course ) while affording the farmers in many locals more money to be spent in and around their locals.

So rather than simply give them hands outs and government welfare programs ( the same government money they would spend in their locals anyhow ) they have to work for it and wait for the payment.

That is the theory of course, while the rest is history as to how it actually evolved in the end.

I surmise the farmers will want to revert back to cash payment coming from rice buying representitives of large cooperatives or corporations that will naturally pay as little as possible.

Maybe a better way would be for the price of rice, in bulk, be subjected to market conditions while the Government subsidizes the rice farmers with a plus 20 % to 30% additional subsidy payment over and above the price they receive from the private sector.

That way the allotted Government budget set aside would be far less and much more manageable and sustainable....and possibly more accountable.

That kind of subsidy program would of course also be corrupted soon or later but at least the amount of money going missing will be far less than what is occurring at present.

Just Saying.

[mikemac]

Maybe a better way would be for the price of rice, in bulk, be subjected to market conditions while the Government subsidizes the rice farmers with a plus 20 % to 30% additional subsidy payment over and above the price they receive from the private sector.

A good plan in theory, but as you said sooner or later it would be corrupted, no matter who is in government at the time.

If it happened to be PTP the farmers would be lucky to receive 2 % of the subsidy.

[hawker9000]

Lots of mass starvation in Thailand was there? People running around naked and in rags due to their utter poverty? When was that exactly? Consider that nobody, NO ONE(!), ever thinks they have as much as they need! Even the truly rich don't think so, otherwise they'd quit trying to get richer...

Seems to me that people who worked on the land growing rice were better off when they could actually SELL IT! All these claims of mass starvation and dire hardship in the north notwithstanding, in a democracy, voters MUST be responsible for their votes, and be prepared to enjoy or suffer the consequences, whichever the case may be. Well, they bought the snake oil and got nothing but a tummy ache from it. Is it unrealistic to think that maybe they've learned a lesson? Hopefully not, but if not, they'll no doubt yet again have to bear the burden of a bad decision.

"I want to eat better", or "I want a new TV" is not an acceptable excuse. Most Thais, north, south, in or outside of Bangkok, wherever, could certainly make use of more than they have. That's not a good reason to put in place a government that will trample the rights of minorities, promote corruption, surrender its policy-making to a fugitive, and flout the law of the land (= constitution or charter). Nations rise or fall by the degree to which their societies see a reason to, and have the vision to, and the moral fortitude to, put aside their selfish interests and instead pursue the common good. Government factions that engage in populist policies to try & bribe the electorate to do otherwise definitely do make this more difficult than it should be (which is the whole idea), but the final responsibility for a worthwhile verdict rests with the jury, which is the electorate.

Democracy is not about confiscating all the wealth and redistributing it according the will of the "majority" and the ambitions of a political career elite. That's much nearer to socialism, and if that's what you're after, just man up and say so.

I am confused as to who you are disagreeing with, but anyway, the rice farmers could actually SELL IT. Why take this on themselves when your favorite government has offered them more? They grabbed it and I am sure would again,not knowing that your favorite government would stiff them on the payment. That's nearer to fraud and man up and say so. Now that they are caught in your favorite government's net, the only chance they have is to keep them in power until they get paid.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Yes, you are indeed confused.

Now I understand your confusion. This topic is about the rice program and about government defaults and how farmers can, potentially, lose their farms, not about televisions as you suggest, nor about democracy, socialism, etc.

You obviously have never done charity work and don't understand what motivates poor people and why the rice program has been so successful among the farmers until the government defaulted. Now they are stuck. People have pledged their farms to the BAAC and moneylenders to get supplies for their next harvest, but now cannot pay their loans due to the defaults. This is about livelihoods and day to day problems, not political economic theories like socialism. Get out of the Paragon and Emporium and go upcountry and do some charity work. You will be shocked how little they care about how they are going to get there next television.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Ahhh. Confused AND self-righteous. What a hideous combo. "I've done charity work, so I know everything, you know nothing, and only MY opinion is worth listening to." Get off your high horse already. It IS about democracy. We whine and we moan about it here, about how the anti-government protesters in the streets would thwart it, about how the "Bangkok elite" consider the up-country rice-farmers too uneducated or too ignorant to participate in it, etc., etc., etc., but when they go and vote for the medicine show favorite and end up empty-handed and swindled, suddenly no one should have expected any different from them. You can't have it both ways. Either they ARE capable of democracy and ARE responsible for their decisions at the polls, or they're NOT capable of handling the responsibility and someone HAS TO agitate for reforms that will prevent national self-destruction.

You treat your fellow posters here with the exact same disdain you would criticize the anti-govt protesters for having toward the rice-farmers... You might be shocked to learn that's called hypocrisy.

[Piichai]

I agree. i do not think it would be in the Dems best interest to form a government now anyway.

Now is not the time for forming. It is the time for *reforming!*

[Old Man River]

Lots of mass starvation in Thailand was there? People running around naked and in rags due to their utter poverty? When was that exactly? Consider that nobody, NO ONE(!), ever thinks they have as much as they need! Even the truly rich don't think so, otherwise they'd quit trying to get richer...

Seems to me that people who worked on the land growing rice were better off when they could actually SELL IT! All these claims of mass starvation and dire hardship in the north notwithstanding, in a democracy, voters MUST be responsible for their votes, and be prepared to enjoy or suffer the consequences, whichever the case may be. Well, they bought the snake oil and got nothing but a tummy ache from it. Is it unrealistic to think that maybe they've learned a lesson? Hopefully not, but if not, they'll no doubt yet again have to bear the burden of a bad decision.

"I want to eat better", or "I want a new TV" is not an acceptable excuse. Most Thais, north, south, in or outside of Bangkok, wherever, could certainly make use of more than they have. That's not a good reason to put in place a government that will trample the rights of minorities, promote corruption, surrender its policy-making to a fugitive, and flout the law of the land (= constitution or charter). Nations rise or fall by the degree to which their societies see a reason to, and have the vision to, and the moral fortitude to, put aside their selfish interests and instead pursue the common good. Government factions that engage in populist policies to try & bribe the electorate to do otherwise definitely do make this more difficult than it should be (which is the whole idea), but the final responsibility for a worthwhile verdict rests with the jury, which is the electorate.

Democracy is not about confiscating all the wealth and redistributing it according the will of the "majority" and the ambitions of a political career elite. That's much nearer to socialism, and if that's what you're after, just man up and say so.

I am confused as to who you are disagreeing with, but anyway, the rice farmers could actually SELL IT. Why take this on themselves when your favorite government has offered them more? They grabbed it and I am sure would again,not knowing that your favorite government would stiff them on the payment. That's nearer to fraud and man up and say so. Now that they are caught in your favorite government's net, the only chance they have is to keep them in power until they get paid.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Yes, you are indeed confused.

Now I understand your confusion. This topic is about the rice program and about government defaults and how farmers can, potentially, lose their farms, not about televisions as you suggest, nor about democracy, socialism, etc.

You obviously have never done charity work and don't understand what motivates poor people and why the rice program has been so successful among the farmers until the government defaulted. Now they are stuck. People have pledged their farms to the BAAC and moneylenders to get supplies for their next harvest, but now cannot pay their loans due to the defaults. This is about livelihoods and day to day problems, not political economic theories like socialism. Get out of the Paragon and Emporium and go upcountry and do some charity work. You will be shocked how little they care about how they are going to get there next television.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Ahhh. Confused AND self-righteous. What a hideous combo. "I've done charity work, so I know everything, you know nothing, and only MY opinion is worth listening to." Get off your high horse already. It IS about democracy. We whine and we moan about it here, about how the anti-government protesters in the streets would thwart it, about how the "Bangkok elite" consider the up-country rice-farmers too uneducated or too ignorant to participate in it, etc., etc., etc., but when they go and vote for the medicine show favorite and end up empty-handed and swindled, suddenly no one should have expected any different from them. You can't have it both ways. Either they ARE capable of democracy and ARE responsible for their decisions at the polls, or they're NOT capable of handling the responsibility and someone HAS TO agitate for reforms that will prevent national self-destruction.

You treat your fellow posters here with the exact same disdain you would criticize the anti-govt protesters for having toward the rice-farmers... You might be shocked to learn that's called hypocrisy.

I have re-read your posts so we can get to the heart of our discussion. If I understand you, we both agree that this is about democracy, but you don't think the farmers should be paid because they voted for the PTP (the medicine show - your words). You think the farmers don't need the money and will use it to buy new televisions (your words). I think the farmers committing suicide is because of mounting debts and their livelihoods. If this is hypocritical to you, so be it.

Personally, I don't think any of my friends or family that are protesting are against the farmers being paid. In fact, many of the farmers are joining the protests. This protest includes the middle class as well. The rice farmers, whose votes are about their livelihoods and not about new clothes and televisions are learning. Don't knock it. This is how democracy develops. You don't rub their faces in it and say you are better because you were right. You welcome them to the fight.

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