wym Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 More like disillusioned with men full stop, Thais love flattering us we're different. Dream on about the threesome - you can't afford what you'd have to pay a Tom she wouldn't touch us with a ten-foot pole. But sometimes (rarely I admit) you hit just the right circumstances, the Dee will take one for the team, but the Tom won't even make eye contact and as I said watch out if she feels threatened you don't mess with them, worse than the katoeys. . . got that completely wrong mate,i go to a few bars were they hang out(dude bar particulary)and its the toms who always smile and say hullo to me,there beautiful dees,shun me like if got the plaque.happened a few times,and once in a super market a tom came up and said rember me,felt like saying no but rember your bird. Dunno, maybe cause I don't do bars. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fittobethaied Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I have never believed that any man or woman is predisposed to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. What I have observed in my 66 years is that people are drawn into sin and perversion by the same means that the Devil has been using since the Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve. Every person is tempted in their lives by "the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life"...so that is "by sight, by touch and by their desire for a better life". A person can be totally committed to their marriage, then all of a sudden another person crosses their path that represents an overwhelming temptation, and they succumb. One's spouse is "reeled in" by someone who looks good to them, then gets too close and experiences something that feels good to them and then they are manipulated by that person with the promise of a better life. It can be another man or another woman. Sin has no boundaries...it will take you further than you want to go and make you stay longer than you want to stay! In my case I was married with my former Thai wife for 18 years and we lived in the US where we were members of a 5000 member church. We were both highly visible because we were both involved in ministry together, and our marriage was the envy of our church family. I treated my wife with dignity and respect and strived to live the same life behind closed doors that I did in public. I was totally devoted to my wife and our family and am confident that I was very attentive to my wife's every need, and I worked hard to accumulate adequate resources so that we could live comfortably in retirement. One day while in my office I received a phone call from a trusted neighbor saying that my wife and two strange men appeared to be moving out possessions from our home. I rushed home and found the house void of her personal effects and divorce papers placed on the kitchen counter. I went straight to the computer and discovered that she had plundered our joint bank accounts. After several failed attempts at reconciliation we were divorced in Mar 2010 and her motive remained a total mystery to me until 1 1/2 years later when I discovered that she had been having an affair before our breakup with a younger man, and she eventually married him. She walked away with half of our marital assets and now she is set for life and enjoying the resources of her new man who appears to be well to do financially. During the period of our separation many couples from our church attempted to counsel her, and I too had talks with my pastor in an attempt to "get my head around" all that had happened. My pastor had the belief that some women just get to a point in their marriage where they want their freedom...at all costs, and for no other apparent reason. However, all along I suspected that my wife was having an affair, because in my estimation and from my own personal experience...nothing will make a woman give up a loving and committed relationship with her husband...except she be tempted by another man or woman. Yes, it's true that we don't know both sides of the story in the case of the OP. But what I do know is that even if he were the perfect husband, if the wife was tempted beyond her own personal capacity to resist and carried away by her own lusts, then he should not blame himself. No man can be held responsible and accountable for the sins of another. What the OP is feeling right now is the "collateral damage" from the blow of betrayal. It is a dastardly wound and one that is not easily healed. So please...go light on the guy and let him have his voice heard. It's good therapy for him and we can all learn a great lesson from his misfortune. What I want the OP to know is that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am now happily married to a wonderful Thai woman and I am totally blessed beyond measure. Hang in there OP...you can't see where you're headed if your always looking in the rear view mirror. Get up every morning and add a new brush stroke to the painting of your future, and before long an image will begin to appear and hope will guide you and be your best friend along your journey. I'm rooting for you!!!!!!!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showbags Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I have never believed that any man or woman is predisposed to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. What I have observed in my 66 years is that people are drawn into sin and perversion by the same means that the Devil has been using since the Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve. Every person is tempted in their lives by "the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life"...so that is "by sight, by touch and by their desire for a better life". A person can be totally committed to their marriage, then all of a sudden another person crosses their path that represents an overwhelming temptation, and they succumb. One's spouse is "reeled in" by someone who looks good to them, then gets too close and experiences something that feels good to them and then they are manipulated by that person with the promise of a better life. It can be another man or another woman. Sin has no boundaries...it will take you further than you want to go and make you stay longer than you want to stay! In my case I was married with my former Thai wife for 18 years and we lived in the US where we were members of a 5000 member church. We were both highly visible because we were both involved in ministry together, and our marriage was the envy of our church family. I treated my wife with dignity and respect and strived to live the same life behind closed doors that I did in public. I was totally devoted to my wife and our family and am confident that I was very attentive to my wife's every need, and I worked hard to accumulate adequate resources so that we could live comfortably in retirement. One day while in my office I received a phone call from a trusted neighbor saying that my wife and two strange men appeared to be moving out possessions from our home. I rushed home and found the house void of her personal effects and divorce papers placed on the kitchen counter. I went straight to the computer and discovered that she had plundered our joint bank accounts. After several failed attempts at reconciliation we were divorced in Mar 2010 and her motive remained a total mystery to me until 1 1/2 years later when I discovered that she had been having an affair before our breakup with a younger man, and she eventually married him. She walked away with half of our marital assets and now she is set for life and enjoying the resources of her new man who appears to be well to do financially. During the period of our separation many couples from our church attempted to counsel her, and I too had talks with my pastor in an attempt to "get my head around" all that had happened. My pastor had the belief that some women just get to a point in their marriage where they want their freedom...at all costs, and for no other apparent reason. However, all along I suspected that my wife was having an affair, because in my estimation and from my own personal experience...nothing will make a woman give up a loving and committed relationship with her husband...except she be tempted by another man or woman. Yes, it's true that we don't know both sides of the story in the case of the OP. But what I do know is that even if he were the perfect husband, if the wife was tempted beyond her own personal capacity to resist and carried away by her own lusts, then he should not blame himself. No man can be held responsible and accountable for the sins of another. What the OP is feeling right now is the "collateral damage" from the blow of betrayal. It is a dastardly wound and one that is not easily healed. So please...go light on the guy and let him have his voice heard. It's good therapy for him and we can all learn a great lesson from his misfortune. What I want the OP to know is that there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am now happily married to a wonderful Thai woman and I am totally blessed beyond measure. Hang in there OP...you can't see where you're headed if your always looking in the rear view mirror. Get up every morning and add a new brush stroke to the painting of your future, and before long an image will begin to appear and hope will guide you and be your best friend along your journey. I'm rooting for you!!!!!!!!!! I find those words from a pastor kind of refreshing. Interested in setting up a cult ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiuvo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Perhaps you can use the 10 days in Los to learn how to make love properly this time. Ha ha. How do they make love properly? Last night I heard a Tom next door inserting what must have been a huge thing on the partner. The partner just kept saying yep yep for about thirty minutes. It must have hurt very much. Ok, so if you have a big one good and if not go buy a dildo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestar Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Whatever you do now mate, don't go try your chances in the Philippines. Every other girl has a Tom and I'm talking real butch truckers . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxlgirl Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 No, western lesbians have a male/female dynamic, just the outward appearances aren't so obviously distinguishing. um.. wut? Says who and define male/female dynamic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wym Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 One is stronger, dominant, AKA "butch". Other more feminine. My sister's gay, not obviously Dee but has always had stronger partners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiftyTwo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 One is stronger, dominant, AKA "butch". Other more feminine. My sister's gay, not obviously Dee but has always had stronger partners. Tom is gay Dee is an employee, just with a gay employer (at this moment in time). Your sister may be gay, but I doubt anyone is paying her, so not Dee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wym Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 WhAAAAt? Dee is just the feminine partner, nothing to do with sex work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wym Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Oh sorry I was surprised, it's you 52 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerbalEd Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Perhaps you can use the 10 days in Los to learn how to make love properly this time. And you're just the man to show him, right? You must think the cure for lesbianism is a good shag from a man like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ve37 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 One is stronger, dominant, AKA "butch". Other more feminine. My sister's gay, not obviously Dee but has always had stronger partners. Tom is gay Dee is an employee, just with a gay employer (at this moment in time). Very incorrect. A Tom is not necessarily gay,...more likely, their gender identity is male, and their sexual preference is women. Same with Ladyboys,...they are not "gay"...their gender identity is female, and many have a sexual preference for males. A butch is a masculine lesbian,...whereas a Tom is more likely a F2M. Acceptance of gender identity in Thai society (although not in Thai law) is likely where the rest of the planet, with the exception of Russia, is likely moving towards. The time of the patriarchal binary gender paradigm is near its end. And keep in mind,...there are not 2 (male/female) or 3 (other) variables, but many, many gender types. As for Tom's being lesbians,...the few Tom's I've met would take offense at such a designation. For those interested in this perhaps 20% of the Thai population,...try: http://www.silkwormbooks.com/each_titles/e_thailand/tom_dee.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestar Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I've never seen as many Thai girls with Tom boy partners as there are now. If you go into any university town at night you'll clearly see that most of girls are with a Tom. I know it's a phase but nevertheless shows that they have a propensity towards bisexuality. A senior lecturer at Khon Ken Uni told me rrecently that the reason for this increase is that Thai girls are becoming increasingly disillusioned with Thai men.good may be they might consider a farang,but yes your right there is a lot of toms about out there with there dees,and arnt they beautiful,love to get a threesome going one day. Getting a "threesome going one day" is different than being in a relationship with one. I had several experiences with Dees as you rightly said initiated by the Tom, one was smart, sharp and beautiful enough, I decided to hang around for a while. Every time a man would even look in her direction she'd comment "he thinks he's handsome" "full of himself.." "he only wants sex.." and turn her nose up but any middle aged spiked hair Tom she'd giggle and go weak at the knees. She is married now and I know for a fact she's still (behind her husband's back) with a Tom, I really don't envy that poor guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
box home Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) Same with Ladyboys,...they are not "gay"...their gender identity is female, and many have a sexual preference for males. you are not observing close enough or choosing to ignore what you dont want to see. a sexual preference for males to pay their daily bills but an absolute preferece for pre-teen girls who they then sell onward into the trade at a very high price after they have finished the grooming and moved to the next. Edited January 31, 2014 by box home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hgv driver Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Perhaps you can use the 10 days in Los to learn how to make love properly this time. Showbags that was uncalled for that was bitchy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denby45 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 good may be they might consider a farang,but yes your right there is a lot of toms about out there with there dees,and arnt they beautiful,love to get a threesome going one day. More like disillusioned with men full stop, Thais love flattering us we're different. Dream on about the threesome - you can't afford what you'd have to pay a Tom she wouldn't touch us with a ten-foot pole. But sometimes (rarely I admit) you hit just the right circumstances, the Dee will take one for the team, but the Tom won't even make eye contact and as I said watch out if she feels threatened you don't mess with them, worse than the katoeys. . . got that completely wrong mate,i go to a few bars were they hang out(dude bar particulary)and its the toms who always smile and say hullo to me,there beautiful dees,shun me like if got the plaque.happened a few times,and once in a super market a tom came up and said rember me,felt like saying no but rember your bird. You should brush more... LMFAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxlgirl Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 tom/dee's are a breed of its own and as already mentioned, they often don't identify as gay. Toms can be compared to ladyboys, which makes them transsexual. Not all are willing or able to undergo surgery though. Some women look like toms and are gay, some look feminine. They all have different preferences when it comes to choose a partner, along with different ideas on how to maintain a relationship. For any reasonable person gay or straight, values such as mutual respect, trust and equality should be the basis of any healthy relationship. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiftyTwo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) tom/dee's are a breed of its own and as already mentioned, they often don't identify as gay. Toms can be compared to ladyboys, which makes them transsexual. Not all are willing or able to undergo surgery though. Some women look like toms and are gay, some look feminine. They all have different preferences when it comes to choose a partner, along with different ideas on how to maintain a relationship. For any reasonable person gay or straight, values such as mutual respect, trust and equality should be the basis of any healthy relationship. In Thailand relationships are more a have/need money sort of thing. Tom has, Dee needs. Edited January 31, 2014 by FiftyTwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notable Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Falang Thai relationships mostly fall apart before long, there's still a stream of desperate old men coming here to replace the ones who know better though. It's better to steer clear of trouble and think with your brain, not your ham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Falang Thai relationships mostly fall apart before long, there's still a stream of desperate old men coming here to replace the ones who know better though. It's better to steer clear of trouble and think with your brain, not your ham. Blah, blah blah, - post your statistical link to support your case else move on and quiet down. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notable Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Oh yes of course it's a well known fact that Falang Thai relationships have greater longevity. Just look at some of the posts on this forum over the past years for confirmation, Chang Mai charlie needs to take his head out of the sand. Maybe he's hoping his will be different. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ve37 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Same with Ladyboys,...they are not "gay"...their gender identity is female, and many have a sexual preference for males.you are not observing close enough or choosing to ignore what you dont want to see. a sexual preference for males to pay their daily bills but an absolute preferece for pre-teen girls who they then sell onward into the trade at a very high price after they have finished the grooming and moved to the next. I lost your connection on this....what do Ladyboys, that is, those with a gender identity of being female, have to do with the illegal (get you life in a Thai prison) act of preferece for pre-teen girls. Sounds like a South Thailand thing. I visited Pattaya once,...and doubt I'd ever go back,...very base-energy vibes there. Personally,...I'm Buddhist,...I do not go to bars,...don't smoke ciggies,...I dress like Northern Thai men,...nor ever attempt to project my Christianized European culture on anyone. Perhaps that's why I enjoy living in Northwest Thailand. Up here, sex with anyone under 18 is a crime,...pornography is a crime,...drugs are a crime. In Pattaya you will see all types of sex toys displayed openly along the streets,...in Chiang Mai you'll not a one. I can only hope that the South's allowance of open promiscuity and sexual derangement never gets above Bangkok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmanjack Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 If you go into any university town at night you'll clearly see that most of girls are with a Tom. I know it's a phase but nevertheless shows that they have a propensity towards bisexuality. "Most of the girls are with a Tom...?" I'd say that's a gross exaggeration. I live in a university town and although there are quite a few tom's/dee's, they are still in the minority. Many times, girls will hang together, hold hands, and act like a couple when they're just friends. An Asian thing. So how can you possibly tell? And the fact that Thailand is much more tolerant than the west and other societies allows same sex couples to be less discrete. Try this in Russia. From what I have seen the Tom will usually have really short hair and the dee has long hair. I admit the boy boy holding hands and the girl girl holding hands had me bewildered when I first came here but a thai friend explained the holding hands as friends bit. Still did not make sense to me but i accepted it as a thai thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ve37 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 tom/dee's are a breed of its own and as already mentioned, they often don't identify as gay. Toms can be compared to ladyboys, which makes them transsexual. Not all are willing or able to undergo surgery though. Some women look like toms and are gay, some look feminine. They all have different preferences when it comes to choose a partner, along with different ideas on how to maintain a relationship. For any reasonable person gay or straight, values such as mutual respect, trust and equality should be the basis of any healthy relationship. I'd suggest that one way to differentiate a Tom from a Butch Lesbian is if their chest is bound,...which is likely that they identify as male gender. In Chiang Mai, pre-op F2M's are very common,...and the girls with them are nearly always smiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pxlgirl Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 yes - I forgot to mention that a (western) butch /= (thai) tom. As for surgery, people do it if they want/can afford it, while in some western countries it's even covered by medical insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notable Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I studied Thai culture and language at Khon Kean University, I still meet with some of the lecturers there occasionally. We had this conversation regarding toms a few months ago, it's by far the biggest relationship trend within KK university according to current staff anyway. I was in 'Vintage' (Thai club) two weeks ago, there were more Toms with girls than guys with girls for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkshire Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 tom/dee's are a breed of its own and as already mentioned, they often don't identify as gay. Toms can be compared to ladyboys, which makes them transsexual. Not all are willing or able to undergo surgery though. Some women look like toms and are gay, some look feminine. They all have different preferences when it comes to choose a partner, along with different ideas on how to maintain a relationship. For any reasonable person gay or straight, values such as mutual respect, trust and equality should be the basis of any healthy relationship. In Thailand relationships are more a have/need money sort of thing. Tom has, Dee needs. I don't know where you're getting your information, but the Tom/Dee thing is rarely about money. These are girls of the same age, typically, and neither are very well-off. I don't want to say these Toms are predatory (too strong a word), but they are usually the aggressors. And they know what buttons to push, how to talk to these girls, build trust, etc. It's not much different than a guy/girl courtship, except that these Toms are able to build trust much quicker, starting off as friends and all that. What's odd is I rarely see older lesbian couples in Thailand--either that or I'm just not real observant. I must concede that when I'm out in public, I mostly only notice the young female hotties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiftyTwo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 tom/dee's are a breed of its own and as already mentioned, they often don't identify as gay. Toms can be compared to ladyboys, which makes them transsexual. Not all are willing or able to undergo surgery though. Some women look like toms and are gay, some look feminine. They all have different preferences when it comes to choose a partner, along with different ideas on how to maintain a relationship. For any reasonable person gay or straight, values such as mutual respect, trust and equality should be the basis of any healthy relationship. In Thailand relationships are more a have/need money sort of thing. Tom has, Dee needs. I don't know where you're getting your information, but the Tom/Dee thing is rarely about money. These are girls of the same age, typically, and neither are very well-off. I don't want to say these Toms are predatory (too strong a word), but they are usually the aggressors. And they know what buttons to push, how to talk to these girls, build trust, etc. It's not much different than a guy/girl courtship, except that these Toms are able to build trust much quicker, starting off as friends and all that. What's odd is I rarely see older lesbian couples in Thailand--either that or I'm just not real observant. I must concede that when I'm out in public, I mostly only notice the young female hotties. I used to drink in loads of bars with CM uni Tom/Dee couples. Sometimes we would all sit together. If Tom was taking her home, Tom paid her bill ...... everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkshire Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 tom/dee's are a breed of its own and as already mentioned, they often don't identify as gay. Toms can be compared to ladyboys, which makes them transsexual. Not all are willing or able to undergo surgery though. Some women look like toms and are gay, some look feminine. They all have different preferences when it comes to choose a partner, along with different ideas on how to maintain a relationship. For any reasonable person gay or straight, values such as mutual respect, trust and equality should be the basis of any healthy relationship. In Thailand relationships are more a have/need money sort of thing. Tom has, Dee needs. I don't know where you're getting your information, but the Tom/Dee thing is rarely about money. These are girls of the same age, typically, and neither are very well-off. I don't want to say these Toms are predatory (too strong a word), but they are usually the aggressors. And they know what buttons to push, how to talk to these girls, build trust, etc. It's not much different than a guy/girl courtship, except that these Toms are able to build trust much quicker, starting off as friends and all that. What's odd is I rarely see older lesbian couples in Thailand--either that or I'm just not real observant. I must concede that when I'm out in public, I mostly only notice the young female hotties. I used to drink in loads of bars with CM uni Tom/Dee couples. Sometimes we would all sit together. If Tom was taking her home, Tom paid her bill ...... everytime. Yes, this could be true. However, when you see young Thai guy/girl couples, it's usually the guy that pays as well, correct? And most of these guys aren't loaded. I would agree that the Tom is the "guy" in the couple, but I don't think the Dee is with her for money. Exceptions of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amse Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 This is just another example of why us westerners can't understand Thainess. I've been in Thailand since 2001 and have studied the Thai culture anf have many close Thai friends who have explained to me the ways of Thainess. Many Thai's are bisexual, but usually don't admit it, and others are openly transgendered, which Thailand is one of the few countries that tolerate this. Most everywhere you go there are ladyboys. Male or female Thai's normally can change their mind about a situation at a drop of a hat, like for instance most Thai's won't give notice to an employeer before quiteing/ leaving, one day theri there the next their gone, with no hint why their leaving, I've seen it all the time during my school teaching career in Thailand. Same in relationships, their totally unpredictable. All of a sudden POOF, their gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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