How and where to report corruption

[Smiles]

Reporting a corruption for 1,000 baht? 555555

There need to be proof and like most posters recommended, they are not forcing everyone to pay for this 'service'.

Save your righteous virtues and live and let live. You might find living here more stress free.

[Barney R]

For 2000 baht I can point you in the right direction but I require 2 copies of your passport, 3 copies of your proof of residency , your bank account balance in a Thai bank with a letter from the bank manager attesting to such and your report needs to be stamped and notorized by an approved notary . The fee for a notary normally will be 10,000 baht but my cousin can do it for 4,000 baht along with all your photo coping needs for a small charge . After I receive your money I will then send you receipt if you do not receive a receipt it means I never received your money so please reapply with necessary monies and paperwork and I will send you a receipt . I hope this helps have a nice day .

[gaazzaazz]

You imply you are a permanent resident in LOS, which is your new home. If you are unable to resist trying to stop something that is part of everyday Thai culture, I suggest you make sure you leave no trace of your identity, and wear rubber gloves when touching anything to do with 'shopping' anyone. If you don't, you might find that you have to wait even longer than 5 hours, possibly 5 years before anyone at Immigration will grant you an 'Extension' to whatever Visa you have.. IMO you shouldn't play with fire unless....etc

You are so right - and others also. I'd like to give more detail but it would endanger my person and business. Enough to say that any reporting of corruption needs to be done very carefully.

While i hear what people say about what is normal - I am very well acquainted with the situation here - as is anyone else who is involved in frequent departmental business. I estimate a minimum of 20mill is paid per annum to this one office. Its not trivial.

Its only logical that the smallest payment ANYONE makes to grease wheels or gain any advantage contributes to and further deepens the culture.

On a positive note, did anyone hear that in the last Indian election there was a new politcal party formed specifically on an anticorruption platform?. They gained 28 of 70 seats in parliament and formed a coalition government. Not bad for a NEW PARTY. They may not solve every problem in one term of government, they may never affect much change, but it does go to show that when people do get fed up that they can start changing from within the system.

[Loles]

It's time to awake Amigo.

Do you want to report the corruption to corrupt authorities ???

How old are you?

Did you see your doctor?

[Robininbkk]

One does not report corruption in Thailand. One does only inhale it, apply it, bend it, love it or hate it, but above all else, one does NOT REPORT it. You are free and by your right to report it, however, they will laugh harder than we do here...

Also, be careful with your ''reporting''. Accusing someone of being corrupt is a huge lose of face. That said, life is cheap here. Retaliation for lost of face is not something you would like to experience in Thailand.

Moreover, it seems you think the same mores, principles and morals applies as your first-world home country. This is a failed thinking. As a permanent residence, you should know better. If not, then you will find yourself be more ''permanent'' in Thai soil.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Robininbkk

[edwinchester]

One does not report corruption in Thailand. One does only inhale it, apply it, bend it, love it or hate it, but above all else, one does NOT REPORT it. You are free and by your right to report it, however, they will laugh harder than we do here...

Also, be careful with your ''reporting''. Accusing someone of being corrupt is a huge lose of face. That said, life is cheap here. Retaliation for lost of face is not something you would like to experience in Thailand.

Moreover, it seems you think the same mores, principles and morals applies as your first-world home country. This is a failed thinking. As a permanent residence, you should know better. If not, then you will find yourself be more ''permanent'' in Thai soil.

My wife reported corrupt financial practices that she discovered in her own Govt office.

It resulted in the boss being forced into early retirement and another reassigned to an 'inactive' post.

Wifey kept her job after initially being transferred and then dismissed by the corrupt boss.

She was thanked personally by the town mayor for her efforts.

Guess that was the Thai way of doing things.

No idea what would have happened if I had blown the whistle rather than my Thai wife.

[speedtripler]

There is an app called Bribespot. When the policeman saw that I was posting he let me go.

lucky he didnt take your phone and put it in his pocket

any attempt to take it back would have been assaulting a police officer

and resisting arrest and proably would have earned you a good beating

[IDL]

Reporting a corruption for 1,000 baht? 555555

There need to be proof and like most posters recommended, they are not forcing everyone to pay for this 'service'.

Save your righteous virtues and live and let live. You might find living here more stress free.

Point 1: I'm sure it's how it sits in the belly of the OP, not the amount.

Point 2: You're right, though probably still a belly-sitting issue.

Point 3: Wrong & right. You're either enjoying the quick-fix corruption yourself (like all Thais, if the truth be known), and/or simply don't give a *hit about wanting these people to improve themselves. But sure, much less stressful living here if you find it easy to look the other way. I'm off shortly because the pit of my stomach can't take any more.

[wym]

Point 1: I'm sure it's how it sits in the belly of the OP, not the amount.

Point 2: You're right, though probably still a belly-sitting issue.

Point 3: Wrong & right. You're either enjoying the quick-fix corruption yourself (like all Thais, if the truth be known), and/or simply don't give a *hit about wanting these people to improve themselves. But sure, much less stressful living here if you find it easy to look the other way. I'm off shortly because the pit of my stomach can't take any more.

They have to want to "improve themselves", themselves.

The actual PEOPLE of Thailand can eliminate this problem any time they like if they just realize

A how important it is to their development

B the fact that that they have that power, especially with comm tech these days

We foreigners are as relevant as a butt pimple to the issue.

And I don't think the current protests are anything to do with in in reality either, that's just a smokescreen.

[IDL]

Point 1: I'm sure it's how it sits in the belly of the OP, not the amount.

Point 2: You're right, though probably still a belly-sitting issue.

Point 3: Wrong & right. You're either enjoying the quick-fix corruption yourself (like all Thais, if the truth be known), and/or simply don't give a *hit about wanting these people to improve themselves. But sure, much less stressful living here if you find it easy to look the other way. I'm off shortly because the pit of my stomach can't take any more.

They have to want to "improve themselves", themselves.

The actual PEOPLE of Thailand can eliminate this problem any time they like if they just realize

A how important it is to their development

B the fact that that they have that power, especially with comm tech these days

We foreigners are as relevant as a butt pimple to the issue.

And I don't think the current protests are anything to do with in in reality either, that's just a smokescreen.

Wym,

Seems we see things the same way. As you'll note from me saying/believing "...all Thais...", they could of course change things, but from top to bottom they don't want to; it's just too darn convenient at times. They simply have a dislike for corrupt practices as and when it works against them; slipping a couple of notes to the BIB for D+D will always be favourable. But my reference to it was as-seen-in-the-eyes-of a person from a country that has progressed through that stage, for the most part at least.

Of course corruption is everywhere, but my old saying is: it's possible one could live a whole lifetime, in England for example, and not directly witness corruption. Sure it still goes on, but not necessarily on a level that's tangible to the average Joe. Here, you can't go a day...unless you stay at home (and then there's no guarantees).

"A how important it is to their development" IMO, very important. Contrary to what they believe about themselves and their nation, this ain't China and never will be. The Chinese spent hundreds of years planning to get to where they are today, not least by way of 'planting' people in places all across the globe; IMO stupidity that the western world never saw it coming, but that's another matter entirely.

Thailand will always depend on others for growth, so in terms of development, if they continue the way they are, the days will always be numbered; fashion only last so long...

[jackinbkk]

I recall a very prominent official and family being caught up in many corruption investigations. So it seems the norm.

In fact listen out of your window if you are in Bangkok now.

[ravip]

This world would be imperfect if corruption does NOT exist.

It's just that it comes in different flavours.

Some flavours are palatable to some while for others the same flavour sucks.

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-commission-corruption-bleeds-120bn-european-economy-124538545.html#iIV6Tw1

[wym]

Of course corruption is everywhere, but my old saying is: it's possible one could live a whole lifetime, in England for example, and not directly witness corruption. Sure it still goes on, but not necessarily on a level that's tangible to the average Joe. Here, you can't go a day...unless you stay at home (and then there's no guarantees).

Actually wrt its harmful impact on the common people by giving elites an unfair advantage, I'd say corruption is if anything much worse in NES so-called liberal democracies, exactly BECAUSE they're not accessible or visible to normal people but insidiously embedded within the political economic legal structures.

Thailand will always depend on others for growth, so in terms of development, if they continue the way they are, the days will always be numbered; fashion only last so long...

If you are talking about the fact that ethnic Chinese are the drivers of growth in Thailand as many other countries, OK, but I consider them to be Thai as they do themselves.

And they don't need "help from outside" any more than any modern country, macro economics is global economics everywhere these days.

I honestly think if corruption were eliminated in Thailand indigenous economic growth would greatly accelerate much as Singapore's did when they were able to overcome the problem. The key factors are political will of "the people" and integrity of the leadership.

[wym]

Holding back a lot of western countries as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/04/business/international/European-Union-Report-on-Cost-of-Corruption.html

[wym]

Came across a great map from Transparency Int'l, via this interesting article with a non-obvious interpretation on corruption holding back development, especially compared to MNC and developing-world tax avoidance.

[speedtripler]

Holding back a lot of western countries as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/04/business/international/European-Union-Report-on-Cost-of-Corruption.html

even in Ireland the black market is off the charts,

it always has been but since the recession people dont have 6 figure salarys anymore if theyre lucky enough

to keep their job they have had to accept a paycut

the government making cigarettes too expensive to smoke

and huge taxes on alcohol have created a massive black market

half the shops you go into in working class areas have duty-free cigaretes under the counter and crates of cheap latvian

vodka out back to satisfy the drinking market who maybe unemployed

[GOLDBUGGY]

From your post I am sure you really don't know what corruption is. Like many of the others that posted here to.

So for all, what is "Corruption"?

It is:

Dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.

So now what is "Bribery"?

It is:

The act of giving money or a gift that alters the behavior of the recipient.

I don't see anything here that is dishonest or fraudulent in your story. You were told that it will cost you an extra 1,000 Baht for speedy service. Nobody forced you or told you that you won't get this service at the normal price. You would just have to wait 5 hours longer. They only told you that they have a faster service for a higher price. But because it involves a Government Official, you jump up and down now and call this "Corruption."

Let me ask you this my friend. Have you ever gone down to renew your Passport at your Governments Office and been offered the "Express Service" which means you can get your New Passport in a day, or "Regular Service", which means you get your Passport at the normal time? I have! I went with Express Service which if I recall was about double the normal price. By definition is that not "Corruption" to in your books? You just can't get more Government then your Passport Office.

Ever mail a letter from a Government Post Office? Weren't you offered regular service or as an alternative Registered Mail or Special Delivery? Don't you pay more in your country for that special service they provide? Is this not :corruption"? Is this not a "Bribe" to a Government Official, by your definition, by giving extra money to alter the behavior of the Government Post Master?

Or perhaps in you personal quest to change the world and Thailand and are looking for troops here to help you, you can tell us all honestly now that you never Bribed anyone before in your life? That you never tipped a waiter for extra service for a job he was suppose to do anyway? Or tipped a taxi driver for carrying your luggage from the airport and dropping them off at your door step? Paid a Doorman at a hotel for opening the door for you? A Bell Hop for showing you your room and carrying your bags? Or the man at the door at a Disco, so he would let you in right away and give you a better table? These are all Bribes My Friend! Most of us do it all the time!

What is missing in your criteria and definition of "Corruption" is the act of dishonestly and fraud which doesn't exist, as this did not happen to you. So therefore there is no corruption as they did not do anything illegal. It has been my experience that Thailand is very much a Two-tier System. One for the Rich and Better off. One for the Average Thai. Look at the Health Care System here, for instance. There is Government Hospitals and Private Hospitals. Government Hospitals are free to Thai's and okay, I guess, but you have much better care and quicker service in the Private Hospitals.

You really need to forget your home land if you are going to live here in harmony, and not be so critical about everything you see, which is different. It never stops amazing me about how many people who come here for a change and yet want everything here to be like back home. Go Figure!

Your calculation on how much money they get at this office per worker is way off base. You must have added a few zeros by mistake. No way that the Receptionist, who took your form and may have been working their 5 years or longer, is pulling in 30M Baht a Year. That is a Million Dollars a Year! If you really expected any of us here to believe this "Poppycock", then you are far gone and way out into space someplace. So just have another drink, keep writing here, and forget about it.

[GOLDBUGGY]

It is a very annoying part of life here as we have not been exposed to much of these practises in our home countries. Inefficency is compounded by people wanting extra cash to do the job they are paid to do ( just like bankers in the west). Its annoying but what can you do about it, officials look to every opportunity to fleece people and that includes Thais. How else would people on 15000bts a month (GOVT EMPLOYEES) be able to live the lifestyle they do? No one notices or says anything because they are all at it, sadly I dont see how they stop it to many cars and houses have to go back. Just dont get stressed out by it remember this is not"home" this is now where we live and the culture is different.

Where do you get these figures from about Thai peoples pay. I personal know A Thai person on at least 3000,000 baht a month, and Female, admittedly she is in High office, Thats the problem though the gap between the have and have nots.

I am more interested in where you get your figures from. A Thai Woman in a High Government Office making 3,000,000 Baht a month. That is over a Million Dollars a year! The President doesn't make that kind of money here! Yet you consider this to be normal wage here? My Gosh!

If this woman really exists then you have met the x-wife of the man who owns all the 7-11 Stores here, and that is her Alimony Payment. Mind you anything is possible here in the land of pretend. I once met a Gynaecologist at a Bar one time. All the Bar Girls flocked around him for free advice. Seemed like a nice guy so we started a conversation. I couldn't help wondering what a Gynaecologist was doing in a Girly Bar. I figured this would be bad for his reputation if somehow this got found out. But it turns out he was really only a Taxi Driver from Sweden. Says the Girls lie to him so why not the other way around. Go Figure?

But to answer your question I know as my wife, and University Graduate with a BA in Business Administration & Accounted woredk for the Tax Department. Her wage was 15,000 Baht a month before deductions. I saw her check with my own eyes. So if you want to call me a liar go ahead. But to me it seems that this liar shoe should fit on the other foot. A Government Official Earning over a Million Dollars a year in Thailand. My Ass she does!

[wym]

Yes, many office admin type staff work for well under B20K pm here.

If the "quick service fee" goes directly to the bureaucrats rather than the income of the department then yes of course that is corruption.

Obviously these fees go mostly upstream to the higher-ranking officials, the ones who paid the most for their lucrative pyramid scheme. I am sure 1M USD per year isn't unusual at all in the higher ranks of depts like customs, Phuket land office etc

How much a given paper-pusher makes isn't really relevant though.

On the topic of how corruption hurts development, I don't think it's the money flows itself. It's the fact that potential entrepreneurs are more likely to sit on their hands due to the uncertainty that any police or army colonel can just come along and arbitrarily become your partner or uncle of a less successful competitor shut you down.

A vibrant competitive economy encouraging startups requires a level playing field and a strong enforcement culture of rule of law.

This is why the idea of rampant tax avoidance to me doesn't stifle development as much, but of course it does cripple the government's ability to fund its essential services, huge impact on the well-being of the population but IMO not as damaging long-term as keeping development down.

Edited February 4, 2014 by wym

[IDL]

Yes, many office admin type staff work for well under B20K pm here.

If the "quick service fee" goes directly to the bureaucrats rather than the income of the department then yes of course that is corruption.

Obviously these fees go mostly upstream to the higher-ranking officials, the ones who paid the most for their lucrative pyramid scheme. I am sure 1M USD per year isn't unusual at all in the higher ranks of depts like customs, Phuket land office etc

How much a given paper-pusher makes isn't really relevant though.

On the topic of how corruption hurts development, I don't think it's the money flows itself. It's the fact that potential entrepreneurs are more likely to sit on their hands due to the uncertainty that any police or army colonel can just come along and arbitrarily become your partner or uncle of a less successful competitor shut you down.

A vibrant competitive economy encouraging startups requires a level playing field and a strong enforcement culture of rule of law.

This is why the idea of rampant tax avoidance to me doesn't stifle development as much, but of course it does cripple the government's ability to fund its essential services, huge impact on the well-being of the population but IMO not as damaging long-term as keeping development down.

Agreed.

Corruption compromises the very foundation to which you build something. If there ain't a stable ground, how on earth is anything built on it going to be stable.

[glegolo]

Posted 2014-01-31 08:03:15 gaazzaazz

I hear the giggles already - the cynics saying what's the use etc.

However I am a permanent here, and I do want my new home country to prosper. I feel that I am part of the propblem if I am not prepared to at least anonymously state what i know.

In this instance it is the LAND OFFICE. The extended time it takes to process a Chanote transaction - transfer, etc, has led to anyone that has business with this Department (LAMPANG Muang) forking over 1000b to expadite matters. There is a deliberate go slow practise where anyone not complying will spend 5 hours for a process that when wheels and palms are greased often is completed within 1 hour. It is the staff who take payments by cash or via bank accounts.

I make the distintion between departmental corruption and staff practises.

Is there some website? Even if it is Thai language I can use google translate to get the point across.

Thanks

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You say that you are a "permanent" and yet understand so dam_n little about "your new home country"...... You must start to understand where you live, to get a "permanent" doesn´t mean that you suddenly are thai. You will never be a thai nor accepted as one, you will always be the falang that foreigner with the strange face and strange walk. A wolf is a wolf is a wolf...

This country is built in a certain way, and it is built on making money. Honest or dishonest is not important. You are now as a falang willing to put sticks in between the well-oiled-wheels and make your NEW countrymen extremely unhappy, and NOBODY of the everyday thai will even regognize your efforts to make "good". They feel that you are doing things that is NOT your course and will never be.

because whatever paper you hold in your hand, you are a falang until the day you die. We are born as one and we will die as the very same.... Get real and adapt instead is my recommendation for what it is worth..

Glegolo

Edited February 7, 2014 by glegolo

[gaazzaazz]

Did anyone catch the Dec 8 India election results. A NEW party founded entirely with an anti-corruption platform DEMOLISHED the ruling Congress Party.

Contesting their first election they won 28 seats in the new parliament - that is 28 out of 70 (I think) Congress won just 8 seats.

Don't that just rock your socks ??? Perhaps it can happen elsewhere.

Last week I met a bloke in Chiang Mai .... Educated in England and living in Thailand with a top little business, this guy is working with his countrymen - LIBYANS - to fight corruption

Interestingly my recipe for killing corruption was the same model his group were invoking. Namely PAY people who expose corruption and fine those guilty of it. maybe 20% of the fine amount can be paid to the informer.

SO ... check out the Aam Admi Party in India. An unfunded party that had the support of all castes.

[muchogra]

You can always report, but the authority doesn't give a hoot! TIT! This should be the first for reform!