China cancels Thailand rice deal amid probe

[bigbamboo]

The blaming of one person on this is wrong. She had alto of other people working the process. The whole scheme was to get the Shin Dynasty back in power, and to put large amounts of money into the hands of corrupt politicians.

It's not a question of blaming one person but of facing up to some pretty unpalatable facts.

The Chinese don't want to do business with the Thai government, simply because of their lack of transparency and the fact that too many key members of the cabinet are either incompetent, economical with the truth or both. The PM is the leader of the government and also the official in charge of the rice fiasco and so the buck stops with her with on two counts even if the ultimate responsibility lies with the real boss in Dubai.

Edited February 4, 2014 by bigbamboo

[heybruce]

The blaming of one person on this is wrong. She had alto of other people working the process. The whole scheme was to get the Shin Dynasty back in power, and to put large amounts of money into the hands of corrupt politicians.

It's not a question of blaming one person but of facing up to some pretty unpalatable facts.

The Chinese don't want to do business with the Thai government, simply because of their lack of transparency and the fact that too many key members of the cabinet are either incompetent, economical with the truth or both. The PM is the leader of the government and also the official in charge of the rice fiasco and so the buck stops with her with on two counts even if the ultimate responsibility lies with the real boss in Dubai.

Does that part refer to Thailand or China?

[kimamey]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

The spin meister is back ...surely not even you could blame YL for this. Blame here is squarely with Suthep. No other explanation warrants consideration.

I don't know anything about a tablet maker going bankrupt or first time car buyers not getting paid. My gf got hers OK. The car scheme was corrupt in it's own way as a lot of people weren't first time buyers but it wasn't on a large scale like the rice scheme.

How can Suthep be blamed for an investigation into corruption by the leader of a party he's never been a member of? Are you suggesting that the PTP should be allowed to do whatever they want without any consequences?

[Thai at Heart]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

Yeah, too bad the misnamed Democrats don't want an election where they can campaign on the issues. Who knows, if they focused their energy on winning an election instead of overthrowing the government through street protests, they might win.

Stay on topic, this thread is about China cancelling the rice deal with Thailand, nothing to do with the Democrats boycotting the election...

... or are you so bitter you just cant let that one go?

Not bitter,it's not my country.

You gave up on being topic police after this post, though you seem to be concerned only about off-topic posts about the Democrats. I wonder why.

Thank you for the phrase "Democrats boycotting the election", I enjoy the absurdity. It does validate my claim that they are misnamed, doesn't it?

But, to make some concession to the topic, China is at least as corrupt as Thailand. Perhaps they canceled the deal because they were concerned about what the probe would reveal about their purchasing procedures.

But in china, you can get a bullet in the head for corruption.

Big difference to thailand where there is even a law to stop people talking about you your corruption. Wouldn't want to defame anyone now would we.

[kimamey]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

Yeah, too bad the misnamed Democrats don't want an election where they can campaign on the issues. Who knows, if they focused their energy on winning an election instead of overthrowing the government through street protests, they might win.

That sounds a very good reply. It's just a pity it's not based on facts. The Democrats do want elections but only after reforms. If the PTP get back into power I can't see them being too interested in reforms hence the call for reforms first. The reforms they want may not be reasonable or help matters but it's a lie to say they don't want elections.

[kimamey]

I wondered why Yingluck was the chairwoman of the rice mortgage committee scheme, after all her knowledge about rice is probably limited to cooking.

Apparently it was considered appropriate and a chance for the fledgling PM to bask in the glory of this revolutionary ingenious scheme to help both Thai farmers and push up the world price of rice.

She must be cursing big brother now. I wonder if he is burying his head in the sand of Dubai?

That's probably why she very rarely turned up.

It's strange that her sister was brought in to help her because she was so overworked (????) and then she became defence minister as well as PM.

[Old Man River]

Ok, PRBKK, read this as it will surly answer your question IMHO the best post i have read on this subject

Thanks for the kind words, Chupup. Needless to say, I am not enamoured with the scheme :-)

The degree of lies relating to this program is simply unreal; that there is no real oversight and total denial of the problems is exactly why PT have ended up with the current situation - note they could have raised funds easily - instead they spent their time (when they knew they would run out of cash in Oct) misrepresenting the impact of G2G and pretending it would all be ok; I can only guess so that things would seem good and they could force through the amnesty bill while avoiding the censure debate in Nov.

In other words, I would imagine they believed the freedom of 1 man ranked higher than the welfare of millions of rice farmers.

They chose to conceal the lies about the scheme in the censure debate against them in late November, although it did emerge that Yingluck had 'never attended' meetings relating to rice policy, even as the chairwoman of the policy committee.

They were then given the opportunity to raise funds since Nov (when they started defaulting) but since they were bound by their own lies, I honestly think they forgot how important it would be to secure the budget before calling a snap election. They then tried to pressure the EC to rule on it, which failed since the EC has no ability to provide budget for it and most people saw through the cynical scheme. By this time, they left it so late, it was difficult to use their normal method of Enron style off balance sheet style financing from KTB/BAAC etc. EC told them they could still go ahead and pay for it...but it was on them.

They chose, once again, to look after themselves rather than their farmer voting base.

It is hard to imagine a more idiotic way to run a country and waste 700 billion baht. To put in perspective, there are approximately 7m tax payers in Thailand, each is paying into this scheme on average approximately 100,000b, which is then mostly going to govt parties, and a few crumbs to the farmers*.

Nice work if you are on the govt side, pretty lame if you are a farmer, and absolutely awful if you are the one paying for it.

* I ain't an accountant, so me numbers might be wrong. Maybe I can be Finance Minister. I am also good at not turning up to work, and I like flying around the world. Maybe I can be Prime Minista.

TDRI has estimated that 29% went to the poor farmers with 71% going to millers, politicians, exporters and large farms. I am wondering of those not paid, besides the poor farmers, is it the millers, politicians, exporters or the larger farms also not being paid.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[heybruce]

But, to make some concession to the topic, China is at least as corrupt as Thailand. Perhaps they canceled the deal because they were concerned about what the probe would reveal about their purchasing procedures.

But in china, you can get a bullet in the head for corruption.

Big difference to thailand where there is even a law to stop people talking about you your corruption. Wouldn't want to defame anyone now would we.

You only get the bullet if you're too greedy for your status, or you fall out of favor with the government. Neither Thailand or China has a free press, but the restrictions are much more limiting in China.

[ourmanflint]

Another concern for would be Foreign Rice buyers is that much of the Rice mountain is now of mixed quality and also rotten ,so they have lost confidence in the once high quality rice of thailand product ,

Have you inspected it recently ?

How many weavels in it ?

Did you mean Weevils, the little bugs or Weasels the furry mouse killers?

[Skywalker69]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

The spin meister is back ...surely not even you could blame YL for this. Blame here is squarely with Suthep. No other explanation warrants consideration.

The spin meister is back

Hmmm, yes you are!

[heybruce]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

Yeah, too bad the misnamed Democrats don't want an election where they can campaign on the issues. Who knows, if they focused their energy on winning an election instead of overthrowing the government through street protests, they might win.

That sounds a very good reply. It's just a pity it's not based on facts. The Democrats do want elections but only after reforms. If the PTP get back into power I can't see them being too interested in reforms hence the call for reforms first. The reforms they want may not be reasonable or help matters but it's a lie to say they don't want elections.

Good catch, I should have written "The Democrats don't want a fair election where they can campaign on the issues."

Suthep was vague about what the election reforms should be, or how the People's Counsels who decided on the reforms would be chosen, or when the elections would be held. He also never said what was wrong with the last election, conducted according to the constitution written by a military appointed government with the intent of limiting the powers of a democratically elected government. And I am not aware of any claims of fraud that would invalidate the last election, other than vague and unsubstantiated claims from some of the posters on this forum.

In view of this I can't imagine Suthep approving of election reforms unless they guaranteed that only people he approved of would be elected, regardless of the wishes of the majority.

I also think the Democrats might win an election, this or the next time, if they worked in the system and identified to the voters the amazing incompetence of the current government. Unfortunately they seem determined to set the precedent of people and parties who don't like an election result not abiding by it. That will make this country ungovernable.

[Thaddeus]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

Yeah, too bad the misnamed Democrats don't want an election where they can campaign on the issues. Who knows, if they focused their energy on winning an election instead of overthrowing the government through street protests, they might win.

That sounds a very good reply. It's just a pity it's not based on facts. The Democrats do want elections but only after reforms. If the PTP get back into power I can't see them being too interested in reforms hence the call for reforms first. The reforms they want may not be reasonable or help matters but it's a lie to say they don't want elections.

Good catch, I should have written "The Democrats don't want a fair election where they can campaign on the issues."

When have issues ever been more important than money.

Real money.

Money in pocket.

Or promised money.

Issues, pah, not worth the time of day.

[MAJIC]

The BBC mention that Thailand was hoping to ship 700 million tons this year.

Wow, how much rice are they planning on buying this year - PTP really going for broke!!

I believe there is a 'small' error in the BBC figure.

They already are broke,it's just taking a long time before the Rice Farmers realise it!

[GentlemanJim]

This little article has persuaded me at last to write to the BBC to get them to replace that clown Jonathan Head. If ever somebody deserved the first name Richard it was he.

[MAJIC]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

The spin meister is back ...surely not even you could blame YL for this. Blame here is squarely with Suthep. No other explanation warrants consideration.

So, since Suthep helped to expose the rice scam, he is to balme for the G/G deal falling apart. ARE you for Real??

Of course he isn't for real,it's the nature of the Propagandist, i e always blame the opponent,with outrageous claims! in order to catch him off guard!

Edited February 4, 2014 by MAJIC

[soundman]

I am reminding everyone of the topic:

China cancels Thailand rice deal amid probe

Please post on topic. Any more posts trying to derail the topic and discuss election results will be removed.

[Robby nz]

Elsewhere today . The Hon Pres of the rice exporters Ass says that the Govt has been telling people it can sell rice on a G 2 G basis.

But that is a lie.

I would expect he is in a position to know.

[scorecard]

The Chinese are not backing out because of a probe.

Seriously, when have legalities or ethics ever stopped the Chinese from undertaking a transaction?

They are breaking the agreement because theyprobably wanted an additional reduction and didn't get it. Typical Chinese business practices.

Agreements with Chinese government and associated customers means nothing unless one has a big stick. The Thais were desperate for a deal and took the gamble and now they have been given a lesson in Chinese trade practices.

Again we have the wisdom of one who is privy to the whole details.

[DrDweeb]

I wondered why Yingluck was the chairwoman of the rice mortgage committee scheme, after all her knowledge about rice is probably limited to cooking.

Apparently it was considered appropriate and a chance for the fledgling PM to bask in the glory of this revolutionary ingenious scheme to help both Thai farmers and push up the world price of rice.

She must be cursing big brother now. I wonder if he is burying his head in the sand of Dubai?

"She must be cursing big brother now."

It is the worst kept secret in Thailand that she is not his sister. It amazes me that no journalist has "investigated" and published on this matyter.

In any case, one reaps as one sows as they say, and she deserves everything that is coming to her for being the sock puppet she is.

[GeorgeO]

The news just keeps getting better and better..

As many of us on here have noted, the failure to make due payments to the farmers precedes the dissolution of the former government by a good two months, but I note that Jonathan (Richard) Head perpetuates the lie that the caretaker government and its followers continue to use: ...

"[the government] is barred from borrowing to fund rice purchases", the BBC's Jonathan Head in Bangkok says.

I wonder when we are likely to see any balanced reporting from him...?

[DrDweeb]

The 2 things are completely separate, one the rice pledging ( I don't support, never have), two, the commercial transaction to sell rice to China. Any sane person would support that...it gets the farmers paid and reduces the mountain, albeit at a loss. That transaction has been derailed by Suthep . Tragic for everyone, especially the farmers. I'm not surprised the Chinese got cold feet...but there is no reason why the sale should not proceed. In fact, it's in everyone's best interests that it does so ( apart from a few obsessions who see something corrupt in a straightforward, transparent transaction). Mystifying

The transaction was not derailed by Suthep, it never appeared to exist as any more than a verbal vague commitment with no pricing or details agreed. Maybe that is a straightforward transparent transaction to some, but it certainly isn't to me (one of the many people paying for this scheme). How Suthep could derail it as a protester I have no idea; the PM or government officials or the Chinese could derail it - what power does Suthep have??? Zero other than the power to show corruption!

Like most of the other G2G deals, it never was real, it is fairytales and handbags.

This was the original claim - 1million tons starting with 500,000 tons in Dec to the Chinese - we should have seen deliveries already made and cash in:

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/china-agrees-buy-1-million-tonnes-rice-one-year/

echoed by the PM in Oct - note it was only said by Thai side, never said by Chinese side AFAIK

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/10/thai-pm-says-rice-deal-secured-with-china-20131013145918839617.html

Now the scheme is 'cancelled' again only according to the Thai side, never by the Chinese side AFAIK, and the sale was supposedly to an unnamed state enterprise in Harbin; note from other sources we know that the same govt spokesperson had no problem stating the name of another company interested to purchase 1m tons of rice in China (China National Cereals, Oils and Foodstuffs Corporation, a Chinese state-owned food conglomerate) but refused to give the details of the company who actually supposedly signed the contract no one has ever seen for 1.2m tons (different details than what was previously stated by the spokesperson and the PM in the past also). Deliveries in December vanished without a trace.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26028335

Now when we bear in mind the Thai govt (i.e. PT via the commerce ministry) claimed they would sell 8.5m tons for 2013 in Nov worth approx. 183 billion baht with 7m tons via G2G deals

http://www.thairiceexporters.or.th/Int%20news/News_2013/int_news_281113-1.html

Then in Dec admitted the real number was likely to be more like 6.7m tons in Dec (1 month later) worth around 125 billion only for 2013 including G2G of 4.7m but even then the rice exporters themselves dispute this number claiming the G2G deals are lower than what the govt is claiming

http://www.thairiceexporters.or.th/Int%20news/News_2013/int_news_271213-1.html

And what is interesting, is who actually buys Thai rice, coincidentally no China here in the past so it really would be a major win if Thailand had managed to sell rice to China this time around: "Thailands top five rice importers include Benin, Iraq, South Africa, the U.S. and Ivory Coast."

http://www.thairiceexporters.or.th/Int%20news/News_2013/int_news_291213-1.html

We know what Thailand has been selling rice for: Thailand has sold 5%-white rice at 450 U.S. dollars/ton or approx. 13,500b per ton (supposedly) and apparently even trying to sell 5% at $420 USD (around 13,000b per ton) they cannot find customers in the private sector, so there has to be some seriously odd things going on if a foreign state wants to pay more for no reason (they could just buy from the private sector at a lower price rather than the G2G price) - hence the likely corruption on both sides of the transaction hidden by claims of 'security secrecy':

http://www.thairiceexporters.or.th/Int%20news/News_2013/int_news_291213-1.html

http://www.thairiceexporters.or.th/Int%20news/News_2013/int_news_171213-2.html

Now there are claims of other deals, like to Indonesia and Iran, but these are for hundreds of thousands of tons, which are way, way less than the sorts of numbers we need to raise funds

http://www.thairiceexporters.or.th/Int%20news/News_2013/int_news_061213-1.html

The current stockpile, depending who you listen to is somewhere between 10m tons, and 16 and 17m tons (16m in this article).

http://www.thairiceexporters.or.th/Int%20news/News_2013/int_news_061213-1.html

Note that 1 million tons of rice would generate around 15 billion baht in a best case scenario (more likely they would be getting a price of around 13 billion at the most less delivery costs etc; as the scheme is short around 200 billion baht at last estimate and they need an instant 50 -77 - 130 billion baht to pay the farmers now (depending who you listen to), the numbers don't even come close to adding up - it is a drop in the bucket compared to the actual loss - we need to do another 3-9 deals of the same size immediately just to raise the cash needed. As we do not have the rice on hand (the government claims to have stockpiles but no one knows the quality or size of the stockpiles, and it's likely a bunch of rice is missing gone forever/never existed).

BTW Thailand imports some rice and exports Thai rice - Thai rice used to be world renowned for fragrance, quality and good pricing - at the right price why not sell abroad to other countries who grow rice - no issue. But the problem is trying to corner the market when you are not in an oligopoly situation; Mingkwan tried it in 2007 and it was a disaster...only PT would be so unwise to try the same thing again expecting a different outcome, but I guess its easy when they are only spending our money, not their own.

As I said, if Thaksin wants to support Thai rice farmers only (note there is no similar scheme for other crops) because they think the market price will rise, then the Shinawatras are rich enough to buy the rice for export themselves at the pledge price of 15,000, and they are welcome to the profits stemming from such a venture. No problem.

Man, excellent post. It is pleasing to see that someone can actually do the hard yards and post a coherent chronology.

pip pip.

[GeorgeO]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

The spin meister is back ...surely not even you could blame YL for this. Blame here is squarely with Suthep. No other explanation warrants consideration.

Prbkk, we have been treated to some highly amusing posts from you in the past, but I have to ask, have you just posted this without reading what you actually wrote. I think an explanation is warranted from you as to how this is Suthep's fault, and how no one could possibly blame YL...?! Are you really serious?

[webfact]

Niwatthamrong says Chinese firm cancels 1.2 million tonnes rice deal



BANGKOK: -- A Chinese state-owned company has cancelled the deal to buy 1.2 million tonnes of rice from Thailand because of corruption investigation into another rice deal, caretaker Deputy Prime Minister and Commerce Minister Niwatthamrong Bunsongphaisan told the media on Tuesday.

He said that the firm, Peh Ta Haung which is based in Harbin, had notified the Commerce Ministry of its decision to scrap the contract which was signed last year due to the probe by the National Anti-Corruption Commission into another rice deal.

The Chinese firm noted that the government-to-government deal should be made between the central governments of Thailand and China and not between the Thai government and a Chinese provincial government, said Mr Niwatthamrong.

However,the minister stressed that the cancellation of this particular deal was different from the other deal – a memorandum of understanding signed by Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra and her Chinese counterpart under which China pledged to buy one million tonnes of rice annually for five years from Thailand.

The MOU remains in place although an agreement is yet to be signed as the government is in the caretaker’s capacity and, as such, cannot enter into a contract which will be binding to the new administration, said Mr Niwatthamrong.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/niwatthamrong-says-chinese-firm-cancels-1-2-million-tonnes-rice-deal/


-- Thai PBS 2014-02-05

[Mosha]

First we had the Ivory Coast said they had to destroy 20% of a shipment because it was rotten.

Then Iran says it will not buy Thai rice for 5 years because of poor quality.

Then The US returns a shipment for the same reason.

And now we have China saying it doesn't want what they are supposed to have agreed to buy.

That takes care of some of the biggest customers, so who is left to buy the mountain ?

Didn't she sign a trade deal with that European trading giant Montenegro

[OMGImInPattaya]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

And the "Democrat Party" still couldn't win an election (if they had lived up to their name). What a bunch of wangkers.

[carbine1125]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

The spin meister is back ...surely not even you could blame YL for this. Blame here is squarely with Suthep. No other explanation warrants consideration.

What planet did you just wake up on? The farmers have been waiting six months for money from the goverment, friends of mine have not recieved car subsidy due to them last October.

[rametindallas]

"China lacks confidence to do business with us after the National Anti-Corruption Commission started investigations into the transparency of rice deals between Thailand and China," Thai Commerce Minister Niwatthamrong Bunsongphaisan said, announcing the cancellation.

So, the entire source of this story comes from a PT Cabinet officer. Did anyone bother to ask the Chinese if they recently canceled a G to G rice deal with Thailand or, even if there ever was a deal. It is bad reporting to have your only source be a Thai politician or bureaucrat. Reporters are so lazy these days; ready to parrot any statement made by anyone is a 'position of power or influence'.

Show me some evidence that there ever was a G to G rice deal between China and Thailand and maybe I will believe the rice deal is off because of corruption investigations. This government has been too shady, secretive, and told too many 'white' lies for me to take this story as true.

[DrDweeb]

The news just keeps getting better and better..

As many of us on here have noted, the failure to make due payments to the farmers precedes the dissolution of the former government by a good two months, but I note that Jonathan (Richard) Head perpetuates the lie that the caretaker government and its followers continue to use: ...

"[the government] is barred from borrowing to fund rice purchases", the BBC's Jonathan Head in Bangkok says.

I wonder when we are likely to see any balanced reporting from him...?

55555555 ... never, obviously - he is a clown.

[rametindallas]

http://news.yahoo.com/china-cancels-deal-buy-thai-rice-due-graft-064242944--sector.html

The ONLY source in either story is Thai Commerce Minister Niwatthamrong Bunsongphaisan, and how much is his word worth? Especially since he is under investigation by the NACC. The government hid behind National Security and never would discuss the G to G rice deals it used to announce regularly. No quantities, prices, nor dates were ever divulged to the public. Trust Us, they said. I's like to read some statements from Chinese Government spokespersons before I believe there ever were any G to G deals to be canceled.

[wprime]

Rice scheme burns out. Tablet maker bankrupt. First time car buyers not getting their rebates. That's 0/3 for the Shin populist promises! Well done!

The spin meister is back ...surely not even you could blame YL for this. Blame here is squarely with Suthep. No other explanation warrants consideration.

Agreed, clearly this is Suthep's fault for not entering the BAAC offices so the government could claim all the documents regarding the rice pledge disappeared like they did with Thaksin's passport issuance. He invaded all those other buildings, why not the BAAC? I agree with you, clearly this is a conspiracy planned by Suthep to discredit the PTP which ultimately led to China canceling the deal.