South Australian gay couple travel to Thailand for birth of their surrogate twins

[ALFREDO]

hub of surrogate mothers, well there is a business model... how did they get their name on the birth certificate as father (not married with thai woman) and how can those babies leave thailand (passport, authorisation from mother....)

big lawyer business setup me thinks

and, how much was it ?

All my 3 boys, from 2 different Thai mothers, I am not and was never married to one of them, have my family name in their birth certificate

and their Thai Passports.

Normal proceeding if its not against their Moms wish.

I left Thailand with my different sons several times alone, never a question asked on any border.

No lawyer involved ever.

[pedro01]

To me, it seems very sad to grow up without the love of a mother.

There's a special bond created between a child and it's mother during pregnancy.

The fact that you can buy a baby is rather sad, really - regardless of the sexual preference of the parents.

It's not that sad to potential parental hopefuls who can't have babies otherwise.

I think it's best put the interests of the children before the parents.

There's a lot of justification going on in the article...

"Every family is different. I grew up with only a sister, and to me the idea of someone saying "where's my mother?" is like me saying "where is my brother?" - that is just not the family you are in."

This isn't really a good comparison. It is possible to be born without a sibling but not without a mother.

"We do have some expectation that people will be accepting of diversity," he said. "Some people may say irrational things but families are diverse."

I don't think irrational is a good label for someone that has a different viewpoint.

Matt chimed in: "There is not a part of parenting that is gender specific."

We all know that this is not true. A boys relationship with his mother and father is VERY gender specific. As is the girls relationship. Not only that, as the boys and girls grow into adulthood, these relationships evolve.

The underlying context of their comments is one of them feeling the need to justify themselves. If they really felt this was normal, they would not feel the need to come out with these comments.

At the end of the day, I hope it works out for them. Teasing in the playground will be tough with 2 dads, especially for the boy. That's just the way kids are unfortunately. One thing we can all be sure of though. If it doesn't work out well, it will be the children that suffer most.

[OMGImInPattaya]

If God had wanted two men to have children together then he would have made it so that both men and woman can give birth

"God" must not want sterile heteros to have children either ...

Most of the commercial potential for surrogate services is with hetero people, by far.

Best to ignore the haters.

[Jingthing]

The "haters" have the majority power over unpopular minorities in most of the world, so they can't really be ignored.

[sustento]

If God had wanted two men to have children together then he would have made it so that both men and woman can give birth

Fortunately God doesn't have much influence in Thailand.

[sdanielmcev]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

[sustento]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

[Jingthing]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Yes and no. They most likely would want to marry but can't. It will be progress for them when Australia allows them this CHOICE.

[sustento]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Yes and no. They most likely would want to marry but can't. It will be progress for them when Australia allows them this CHOICE.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

[Jingthing]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Yes and no. They most likely would want to marry but can't. It will be progress for them when Australia allows them this CHOICE.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Of course they aren't married. It is not POSSIBLE for them to marry in their country. Do you seriously think MOST couples seeking such surrogacy arrangements wouldn't either be married or want to marry? I do agree it's a tangential aspect of this but hardly irrelevant.

[lannarebirth]

"Every family is different. I grew up with only a sister, and to me the idea of someone saying "where's my mother?" is like me saying "where is my brother?" - that is just not the family you are in."

Right. Kinda ironic and not a little hypocritical, but still if you can afford it and the laws of "what's happening now" agree, why not?

[balo]

I just hope that this will not be a trend , in India surrogate mothers are big business .

[sdanielmcev]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Obfuscation. Marriage is part and parcel of this argument.

[Jingthing]

I just hope that this will not be a trend , in India surrogate mothers are big business .

It probably is a trend. If Thailand won't do it, India and other countries will just do it more.

[sdanielmcev]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Yes and no. They most likely would want to marry but can't. It will be progress for them when Australia allows them this CHOICE.

Okay, explain how and why it is progress. Choice is not progress.

[thesetat2013]

One would think that as a foreigner travelling abroad that you are still required to follow the laws of your country. If its illegal to possess weed and you travel and try to bring weed back to your country you would go to jail. Hence if its illegal to have surrigate babies wouldnt it be illegal to bring your surrogate baby back home? You are still violating the law as soon as you get home. There must be some pretty big loopholes in their laws for this.

But still the way i see it is that they flaunted the law and are throwing back into the aussies face.

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jingthing]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Yes and no. They most likely would want to marry but can't. It will be progress for them when Australia allows them this CHOICE.

Okay, explain how and why it is progress. Choice is not progress.

If you wanted to marry the person you love and the government said you couldn't, and then later said you could, if you CHOOSE, I simply don't believe that you wouldn't see that as progress (for you). If you are suggesting you support denying those same choices to gay people, fine, you've got lots of company, but in many countries (including I think Thailand and Australia) you'd be on the wrong side of history.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Jingthing

[sdanielmcev]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Yes and no. They most likely would want to marry but can't. It will be progress for them when Australia allows them this CHOICE.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Of course they aren't married. It is not POSSIBLE for them to marry in their country. Do you seriously think MOST couples seeking such surrogacy arrangements wouldn't either be married or want to marry? I do agree it's a tangential aspect of this but hardly irrelevant.

It is possible for them to marry, it isn't legal.

[Jingthing]

If a marriage has no legal weight, it's just a charade. When children are involved especially, most couples want rock solid legal rights associated with ACTUAL marriages under the law. I realize many people have children and don't marry. However, I still think most couples seeking surrogate children would probably either be married already or wish to LEGALLY marry, if possible.

[sustento]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Obfuscation. Marriage is part and parcel of this argument.

They're adopting two children. They aren't married. Marriage is not part of this argument.

[sdanielmcev]

I don't see how progress equates to same sex marriage.

As the men mentioned in the OP aren't married your post is irrelevant.

Yes and no. They most likely would want to marry but can't. It will be progress for them when Australia allows them this CHOICE.

Okay, explain how and why it is progress. Choice is not progress.

If you wanted to marry the person you love and the government said you couldn't, and then later said you could, if you CHOOSE, I simply don't believe that you wouldn't see that as progress (for you). If you are suggesting you support denying those same choices to gay people, fine, you've got lots of company, but in many countries (including I think Thailand and Australia) you'd be on the wrong side of history.

The gay community is trying to co-opt an institution that is ingrained in the social consciousness. Calling it "choice" in the name of progress is intellectual laziness. I have no problem with gays (big mistake on your part), so if you want to change my, of anybody else's minds about this subject, try harder.

[Jingthing]

In my view people against equal civil rights for gay people are anti-gay by DEFINITION and civil rights INCLUDES marriage rights.

Similar to when people in the U.S. were against legalizing interracial marriages ... those people were generally racists.

I'd prefer if such people OWNED their views instead of hiding behind weak excuses. To suggest gay people don't deserve the right to marry is to suggest that they aren't deserving of FIRST CLASS citizenship status in whatever country they live in. That anti-civil rights side has either already lost or will lose in the civilized world.

In any case, that other poster was correct, THIS THREAD is not the place for a full blown gay marriage rights debate. I only thought it was worth mentioning in respect to surrogacy in the sense that gay couples seeking surrogate children would most likely want to marry each other, just the same as opposite sex couples.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Jingthing

[englishoak]

Will these children be cared for and loved as a family unit ? yes I think so and on that note I say good luck and good health to all of them.

[sdanielmcev]

So many holes in your argument, jingthing, I won't even start. Btw, nut up to you to say what is, or isn't in a thread. Tried to help, you shunned it. All I got to in the matter.

[Yunla]

Good luck to the family in the future, hope it works out for them and the kids are healthy and happy throughout childhood.

I agree completely with earlier posters that adoption is better. I can confirm that children's homes are horrible, I was in one in the 1970's and had to run away from it to escape abuse. This is very common. If you want kids, and are unable to have them for whatever reason, the most loving thing you can do is to adopt a child. You will be saving them from at least sadness and feelings of being unwanted, and in some cases you could be saving them from much darker things.

I also have some concerns about women in 3rd-world / developing nations going through childbirth just to pay the bills. And also the emotional loss they will feel when the child is taken away. Although mostly it worries me that this system exploits women from poor nations, something that is already epidemic in other aspects of society.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Yunla

[Yunla]

If God had wanted two men to have children together then he would have made it so that both men and woman can give birth

I respect your view, while it is not one I agree with.

To me, God is love, ultimate compassion and kindness. So I don't see why He would be against any acts of love, compassion or kindness.

I also think humans are extremely arrogant to believe that God cares what they do in the bedroom. So long as you are not hurting anybody against their will, I truly believe that God has no interest in your lovelife / marriage / surrogacy / adoption etc. whatsoever.

Also imho He has "far bigger fish to fry."

[speedtripler]

University lecturer and school teacher,whats the world coming to.

And the point is what? They are both highly educated?

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE 8.2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

the point is they both should know better .......

[speedtripler]

Jingthing, on 10 Feb 2014 - 14:56, said:

Costas2008, on 10 Feb 2014 - 14:50, said:

"Eggs were harvested in Thailand, checked for health then each man fertilised one of the eggs in a Bangkok IVF clinic."

Is this ethically correct?

That's a good question in general -- surrogate birthing.

This is becoming a big business in India and totally legal.

Heterosexual parents.

Gay couples wouldn't be welcome in India (homosexuality is illegal there).

Not sure whether you were asking about the surrogate issue, the gay parenting issue, or both?

No JT, I have nothing against gay parenting, in fact I wish them Good Luck and happiness with the kids.

I was questioning the interference with nature, that I don't believe is right.

so how do you justify interference in nature when parents have extra marital affairs, commit incest, or split up,leave a sole parent with heaps of stress?

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

how can you say that gay couples wont also have "extra marital affairs, commit incest, or split up,leave a sole parent with heaps of stress?"

is it not true that gay men are more likely to have multiple partners ,unprotected sex and die from aids as well just going on statistics alone ?

its a bad idea for those children no mater how they try to dress it up

[sustento]

how can you say that gay couples wont also have "extra marital affairs, commit incest, or split up,leave a sole parent with heaps of stress?"

is it not true that gay men are more likely to have multiple partners ,unprotected sex and die from aids as well just going on statistics alone ?

its a bad idea for those children no mater how they try to dress it up

Evidence please...

[pedro01]

If God had wanted two men to have children together then he would have made it so that both men and woman can give birth

I respect your view, while it is not one I agree with.

To me, God is love, ultimate compassion and kindness. So I don't see why He would be against any acts of love, compassion or kindness.

I also think humans are extremely arrogant to believe that God cares what they do in the bedroom. So long as you are not hurting anybody against their will, I truly believe that God has no interest in your lovelife / marriage / surrogacy / adoption etc. whatsoever.

Also imho He has "far bigger fish to fry."

Is buying babies an act of love, compassion or kindness? To me it seems like an act of selfishness.

God did, after all, decide where to put the womb.