South Australian gay couple travel to Thailand for birth of their surrogate twins

[LuckyLew]

Suggest y'all get back to the topic. Hint: it's not me.

but you have made the topic about you and you beliefs and you seem the think everyone else should think a feel the same way. There is no way in heck everyone will agree being gay is ok and there is even less chance everyone else will agree with same sex parents. There will forever be racism by color and there will forever be homophobes, As it is you right to form and express and opinion it is also everyone else.

[Jingthing]

Suggest y'all get back to the topic. Hint: it's not me.

but you have made the topic about you and you beliefs and you seem the think everyone else should think a feel the same way. There is no way in heck everyone will agree being gay is ok and there is even less chance everyone else will agree with same sex parents. There will forever be racism by color and there will forever be homophobes, As it is you right to form and express and opinion it is also everyone else.

I totally agree there will always be racism and homophobia. Sadly. Racism and homophobia aren't "opinions" though; they are destructive societal diseases. Whether it is "allowed" to express racism and homophobia on this forum is not my call. That's a matter for the management.

http://laicite.wordpress.com/2009/07/22/homophobia-is-not-just-another-point-of-view/

Secondly, and perhaps most commonly ignored by many people, is the fact that homophobia is not merely another opinion. “Vanilla is the best ice cream flavor” is an opinion. But some things are not so simple. Let me illustrate. Consider the following “opinions”:

“I don’t want those Indians near my daughter. Who knows what they’ll do to her.”

“Blacks and whites should never get married to each other, let alone have mixed race kids. It’s just disgusting and wrong.”

“Women don’t have the ability to take part in politics. They should just know their place and stay home to take care of the kids.”

“I send my kids to elite schools so that they won’t have to mingle with those Chinese speaking neighborhood school kids – they’re all poor and uneducated anyway.”

Let’s call a spade a spade, shall we. Those aren’t mere opinions. Those are examples of racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry. The difference is that bigotry and intolerance against races, sexes or classes are acknowledged as such, and not regarded as valid in a pluralistic society, whereas bigotry and intolerance against homosexuals are still treated as simply “differing opinions”, or mere disagreements.

This thread itself suggests discussion on a range of issues related to concerns about surrogacy in general, concerns about surrogacy outsourced abroad especially to poorer countries, and also gay parenting and gay civil rights issues related to parental rights, etc.. Cheers.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Jingthing

[David48]

Suggest y'all get back to the topic. Hint: it's not me.

but you have made the topic about you and you beliefs and you seem the think everyone else should think a feel the same way. There is no way in heck everyone will agree being gay is ok and there is even less chance everyone else will agree with same sex parents. There will forever be racism by color and there will forever be homophobes, As it is you right to form and express and opinion it is also everyone else.

I totally agree there will always be racism and homophobia. Sadly. Racism and homophobia aren't "opinions" though;

"Racism and homophobia aren't "opinions" though;"

Dude ... total BS ... of course they are opinions ...

Attitudes and opinions ... 100%

[Jingthing]

I now get the idea Mr. Coffee wants to take me out for a date or something. I'm a cheap date. Pork sandwiches work for me. But no mayo!

[ultimate weapon]

I do hope the Surrogate Mothers are feeling no remorse, To carry a Baby for 9 months,then give it up to 2 rich Guys .Crazy World we live in.

They went into the contract knowing the consequences. Many women have done this before. It's how some hetero couples become parents when the woman is unable to conceive a child inside her womb they use another woman's. There was a grandmother i believe who became a surrogate parent for her son i think.

[theslime]

I do hope the Surrogate Mothers are feeling no remorse, To carry a Baby for 9 months,then give it up to 2 rich Guys .Crazy World we live in.

Is it nicer to have in 9 month, 100-500? Sex partners? Done from tens of thousands in Thailand. And not only here!

I dont get the gist of your Statement, I find it crazy, when there are millions of Parentless Children in the World, and a waste of resources. Maybe their designer babies will make them feel whole. I feel sorry for the Surrogates ,obviously they need the money,

[Jingthing]

I do hope the Surrogate Mothers are feeling no remorse, To carry a Baby for 9 months,then give it up to 2 rich Guys .Crazy World we live in.

Is it nicer to have in 9 month, 100-500? Sex partners? Done from tens of thousands in Thailand. And not only here!

I dont get the gist of your Statement, I find it crazy, when there are millions of Parentless Children in the World, and a waste of resources. Maybe their designer babies will make them feel whole. I feel sorry for the Surrogates ,obviously they need the money,

It's not that black and white. It's a strong natural human impulse to pass your genes on. Many homosexual people feel that as well. Lesbians can easily do this themselves. Gay man can't. In an ideal world, more people would adopt, but we haven't reached perfection yet.

It should be noted that generally surrogate mothers do have other children of their own so it's not as if they are giving up motherhood entirely.

There are ethical issues here, but there are also no easy answers.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Jingthing

[robertthebruce]

I now get the idea Mr. Coffee wants to take me out for a date or something. I'm a cheap date. Pork sandwiches work for me. But no mayo!

Who's a lucky Boy then..... all these Blind Dates.....

I think i will have to do a bit more posting on Thai Visa, to see if it works for me...

[transam]

Just my opinion. Babes who have "lost" their mum should try to be "attached" to a new mum and dad. Mum has boobs to hang on to if not fed bye. It's nature.

[sustento]

Just my opinion. Babes who have "lost" their mum should try to be "attached" to a new mum and dad. Mum has boobs to hang on to if not fed bye. It's nature.

Male lions eat lion cubs that aren't their own. That's 'nature' too.

[transam]

Just my opinion. Babes who have "lost" their mum should try to be "attached" to a new mum and dad. Mum has boobs to hang on to if not fed bye. It's nature.

Male lions eat lion cubs that aren't their own. That's 'nature' too.

Yep, that is their domain, nothing to do with us humans.

[ALFREDO]

I do hope the Surrogate Mothers are feeling no remorse, To carry a Baby for 9 months,then give it up to 2 rich Guys .Crazy World we live in.

Is it nicer to have in 9 month, 100-500? Sex partners? Done from tens of thousands in Thailand. And not only here!

I dont get the gist of your Statement, I feel sorry for the Surrogates ,obviously they need the money,

The "gist"? You half way there. MONEY. So I asked you, as both groups, the surrogate mothers and the "Special Ladies of the red light" use their body to make money, are you less concerned over the remorse off the "Red light" group? I would choose the Baby delivering group, as the group I am less concerned to get Psychological damage and remorse.

[cup-O-coffee]

I now get the idea Mr. Coffee wants to take me out for a date or something. I'm a cheap date. Pork sandwiches work for me. But no mayo!

Who's a lucky Boy then..... all these Blind Dates.....

I think i will have to do a bit more posting on Thai Visa, to see if it works for me...

That's a gay thing isn't it? I mean, that's what you do when you get this way, right?

Well then, thanks for clearing things up with the OP and why it is all a charade.

Edited February 12, 2014 by cup-O-coffee

[theslime]

I do hope the Surrogate Mothers are feeling no remorse, To carry a Baby for 9 months,then give it up to 2 rich Guys .Crazy World we live in.

Is it nicer to have in 9 month, 100-500? Sex partners? Done from tens of thousands in Thailand. And not only here!

I dont get the gist of your Statement, I feel sorry for the Surrogates ,obviously they need the money,

The "gist"? You half way there. MONEY. So I asked you, as both groups, the surrogate mothers and the "Special Ladies of the red light" use their body to make money, are you less concerned over the remorse off the "Red light" group? I would choose the Baby delivering group, as the group I am less concerned to get Psychological damage and remorse.

I used to have many Red Light Friends and never felt remorse for them,as they say, up to you. Good on ya, up to you, about being less concerned about the Surrogates.

[draftvader]

People might, or might not, have noticed that I backed out of this argument a long time back. My point was about the 2 children, not the sexuality. Jingthing is obviously, he can't deny it, quite a combative arguer and this is a subject that is at the core of Jingthing's existence so he is never going to back down (nor should he).

ANYWAY, this is one of the finest statements yet made about homosexuality. Impassioned and well stated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Olc5C4SXAYM

[Jingthing]

There is an active current thread about the sports and civil rights hero Michael Sam here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/703572-michael-sam-makes-american-football-history/?p=7421417

Michael Sam has nothing to do with THIS thread.

Cheers.

[draftvader]

There is an active current thread about the sports and civil rights hero Michael Sam here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/703572-michael-sam-makes-american-football-history/?p=7421417

Michael Sam has nothing to do with THIS thread.

Cheers.

My post was NOTHING to do with Michael Sam but Dale Hansen. Michael Sam was merely his vehicle for making an excellent point. It bugs me senseless that the premiership has (roughly) 1,200 players but no outwardly gay players. I am really hoping this spark will change this. Anyway, Dale argues the point for acceptance and that was my point in posting it in this thread.

Heading over to your recommended thread now....

[Naam]

hub of surrogate mothers, well there is a business model... how did they get their name on the birth certificate as father (not married with thai woman) and how can those babies leave thailand (passport, authorisation from mother....)

big lawyer business setup me thinks

and, how much was it ?

it's their money and it's nobody's business how they spend it.

[MikeOboe57]

All I see here are two rich guys who exploit a legal loophole and poverty in a foreign country to buy "human incubators" for their seed.

[transam]

All I see here are two rich guys who exploit a legal loophole and poverty in a foreign country to buy "human incubators" for their seed.

Well yeh, but which one is dad.............. ..............Or will a bit of paper reveal all for the kids when older and think, but where, who is A mum.....

[cup-O-coffee]

There is an active current thread about the sports and civil rights hero Michael Sam here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/703572-michael-sam-makes-american-football-history/?p=7421417

Michael Sam has nothing to do with THIS thread.

Cheers.

My post was NOTHING to do with Michael Sam but Dale Hansen. Michael Sam was merely his vehicle for making an excellent point. It bugs me senseless that the premiership has (roughly) 1,200 players but no outwardly gay players. I am really hoping this spark will change this. Anyway, Dale argues the point for acceptance and that was my point in posting it in this thread.

Heading over to your recommended thread now....

Acceptance of what... jingthing cracking jokes about me wanting to date him, and him liking pork sandwiches without mayo... and roberthebruce chiming in that he hopes to submit more posts so he can get a piece of the action?

The fact is that these two corroded my legitimate attempts to have objective and polite discussion into sick, disgusting sexual innuendo. This tells me all I need to know about what feeble minded mouth pieces on the news expect for me to accept.

I expect that government will eventually give them what they want and they and all their meek followers will believe that night is day and day is night, but in so doing, and when that day comes and they realize everything they want, the repercussions will far exceed the rewards.

History has proven that time and time again with fury.

Go ahead... laugh it up. I've got all the patience in the world, especially when I become the brunt of sick and twisted jokes from two people I wanted to accept, but who have now lost any chance of that ever happening again.

Respect, where respect is deserved.

[Prbkk]

There is an active current thread about the sports and civil rights hero Michael Sam here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/703572-michael-sam-makes-american-football-history/?p=7421417

Michael Sam has nothing to do with THIS thread.

Cheers.

My post was NOTHING to do with Michael Sam but Dale Hansen. Michael Sam was merely his vehicle for making an excellent point. It bugs me senseless that the premiership has (roughly) 1,200 players but no outwardly gay players. I am really hoping this spark will change this. Anyway, Dale argues the point for acceptance and that was my point in posting it in this thread.

Heading over to your recommended thread now....

Acceptance of what... jingthing cracking jokes about me wanting to date him, and him liking pork sandwiches without mayo... and roberthebruce chiming in that he hopes to submit more posts so he can get a piece of the action?

The fact is that these two corroded my legitimate attempts to have objective and polite discussion into sick, disgusting sexual innuendo. This tells me all I need to know about what feeble minded mouth pieces on the news expect for me to accept.

I expect that government will eventually give them what they want and they and all their meek followers will believe that night is day and day is night, but in so doing, and when that day comes and they realize everything they want, the repercussions will far exceed the rewards.

History has proven that time and time again with fury.

Go ahead... laugh it up. I've got all the patience in the world, especially when I become the brunt of sick and twisted jokes from two people I wanted to accept, but who have now lost any chance of that ever happening again.

Respect, where respect is deserved.

No Mr Coffee, YOU crossed the line in a sly and devious suggestion, perhaps well hidden, in relation to children. Have another look at it, if you don't recall. If I am reading something into it that was not intended, I apologise but I believe your inference was deliberate...as well as being totally off-colour and below the belt. Snide.

[Jingthing]

Sometimes a pork sandwich is just a pork sandwich.

Mr. Coffee insinuated before that I wouldn't want to eat pork or leavened bread. Of course I eat pork and leavened bread. Perhaps something to do with his lack of exposure to the concept of secular Jews (not to mention the limited amount of days in the year that observant Jews can't eat leavened bread)?

It doesn't surprise me. Often the same people who have "issues" with gay people also lack sophisticated understanding of OTHER minority groups as well (putting that politely).

I was merely explaining that I really don't like mayonnaise as a condiment. It's also not Kosher (but it's pork already!), coincidentally, but for me it's just a culinary preference. Except with tuna fish. For a pork sandwich, give me MUSTARD!

It's really funny that it's Mr. Coffee with the super dirty mind here and he has the Chutzpah to pin that on me (and gay people in general which he seems to hilariously think I speak for).

Also, I surmised Mr. Coffee might want a "date" with me as he has shown a pattern now over some years of trying very hard to bait me into hot "discussions" with him about gay civil rights on forums where he knows anti-gay comments are less regulated. Not playing that game online, sorry! But I must admit it might be fun to do in person, over a pork sandwich, as long as there were armed security guards present.

I reject the idea that THIS thread is the place to discuss the wide subject of gay civil rights. This thread is about something much more specific (and also largely surrogacy). For gay civil rights discussion, may I suggest the gay forum, where it is true anti-gay posts are not allowed. Because again, homophobia is not opinion any more than racism and antisemitism are opinion; rather they are bigotry.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[cup-O-coffee]

Prbkk... got nothing to say to you. Chill out!

Jingthing, you must be getting dizzy with all that spinning.

[Prbkk]

I have no interest in Pork. Don't eat it ( well maybe prosciutto is pork..). I do have a deep and abiding dislike and suspicion of those who try to suggest that there is some correlation between the exploitation of children undertaken by one group , eg the Russian laws re "propaganda" Read: BS for CONTROL. I have no dog in this fight other than abiding dislike of bigots and the thought police and the implication that one group will be tolerated so long as they do not cross an arbitrary line . We are not living in Alan Turing's time, Mr Coffee.

I'm chilled

Edited February 13, 2014 by Prbkk

[Jingthing]

I have no interest in Pork. Don't eat it ( well maybe prosciutto is pork..). I do have a deep and abiding dislike and suspicion of those who try to suggest that there is some correlation between the exploitation of children undertaken by one group , eg the Russian laws re "propaganda" Read: BS for CONTROL. I have no dog in this fight other than abiding dislike of bigots and the thought police and the implication that one group will be tolerated so long as they do not cross an arbitrary line . We are not living in Alan Turing's time, Mr Coffee

True that.

In truth, I eat a very limited amount of any kind of red meat. (I consider it unhealthy.) But I was responding to the beverage man's mention of pork specifically, which is not in any way taboo meat for me.

Anyway, SURROGATE TWINS, anyone?

Edited February 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[pedro01]

To me, it seems very sad to grow up without the love of a mother.

There's a special bond created between a child and it's mother during pregnancy.

The fact that you can buy a baby is rather sad too, really - regardless of the sexual preference of the parents.

Stop it with the rose coloured view of the world. Plenty if useless mothers out there who have kids. If these two people went through the time and expense of the whole process, then I think that is a very good indicator of them being good patents. If you are a woman having a functioning womb is your only qualification.

So buying 2 children is a sign you would be a good parent?

It is hardly buying a child. You are getting an egg and a surrogate. You provide the medical care and treatment. For anyone who has kids, you'll know there is absolutely nothing guaranteeing that the birth goes to full term.

Call it what you want, but they aren't kidnapping anyone. There are no unwilling participants.

If there was any issue with the process, you can be sure that governments of the parents home countries wouldn't be issuing the new borns with citizenship and passports. All it would take is one stroke of a pen by the Australian government not to issue passports to surrogate children and the whole industry would stop dead in its tracks.!

Of course they purchased 2 children.

They paid money and got 2 children. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

Just because it was a purchase with no guarantee - that doesn't stop it from being a purchase. Try buying a hookey watch in Patpong...

[pedro01]

I do hope the Surrogate Mothers are feeling no remorse, To carry a Baby for 9 months,then give it up to 2 rich Guys .Crazy World we live in.

They went into the contract knowing the consequences. Many women have done this before. It's how some hetero couples become parents when the woman is unable to conceive a child inside her womb they use another woman's. There was a grandmother i believe who became a surrogate parent for her son i think.

And it's probably how a few ill intentioned people get hold of children too.

This is effectively a loophole around adoption law for those deemed (rightly or wrongly) unfit to be parents.

It is also exploitation of women in a developing country.

[Jingthing]

The famous Indian surrogacy house has a system of payments, compensations that vary based on completing the pregnancy of not. I think if the birth actually occurs, regardless of the result, it's full payment and compensation no matter what. Not that every place doing this is that organized. Just an example that there are reasonable ways to manage the risks for the buyers and service providers.

Exploitation is a grey area. The famous Indian place often means changing the quality of life for the families involved dramatically. They are even very feminist and train the women to use the money properly for long term investments such a business building, and to not have it stolen by men. It doesn't always work but they are really trying. Nobody there anyway is FORCING the surrogates to do this and it's not pin money either.

Surrogacy is legal in the USA and of course the woman get paid more, but it's higher cost country. It's arguable that the relative payment to the Indian (or Thai) women is relatively similarly large within the context of their local economies. Obviously parents from the USA would not travel to India to pay the same or more for the same service they can get LEGALLY in the USA. (Duh!)

Edited February 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[arunsakda]

An intereating gueation is it that why South Aus does not allow "gay" couples to adopt then?