Aeon Bank now charge 150 B ATM fee

[Pib]

actually it could well be categorised as a purchase type transaction or rather more accurately "not an ATM type transaction" - my card issuer specifically states ATM limit of 250euro not cash limit

Yeap, each card-issuing bank will have its own rules for its credit and debit cards.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I don't think a bank would classify a counter withdrawal as an ATM transaction/withdrawal. But whether they'd code it as a "purchase" or perhaps specifically a "bank or counter or cash advance," I don't know. Going to be interested to find out.

Pib, when you get your next PFCU monthly statement, that might contain more useful info as to how PFCU categorized the transaction...

[Pib]

I don't think a bank would classify a counter withdrawal as an ATM transaction/withdrawal. But whether they'd code it as a "purchase" or perhaps specifically a "bank or counter or cash advance," I don't know. Going to be interested to find out.

Pib, when you get your next PFCU monthly statement, that might contain more useful info as to how PFCU categorized the transaction...

Maybe, we'll see...but that won't be until early March.

[MrWorldwide]

I am alternatively extremely bored (so many repeats) and rather interested. Some of you should have (or perhaps you were) been in charge of the biggest of the worlds' banks or perhaps just in charge of the IMF - held by a woman - no?

So much sarcasm for one so young in the ways of the force, Ms Flower

Personally, I don't get too bent out of shape over the difference between the MC and VISA rates on a given day, but I think everyone needs to know about DCC - it might be a 'repeat', but this is a real trap for tourists everywhere. Throw in ATM fees and the outrageous currency conversion fees charged by some banks and I don't see this thread as trivial - it all adds up, even over a 2-week stay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_currency_conversion

[Langsuan Man]

Would someone please list which Thai Banks will allow you to pull the most cash per transaction

I know that SCB allows 20,000 THB per transaction and Bangkok Bank allows 25,000 THB and there have been reports that some banks will allow 30,000 to 35,000 per transaction. Which ones ?

I would be willing to pay the 150 THB foreign card transaction fee if I could pull at or near the maximum daily limit from my US based ATM card (1K$), which would still be cheaper @ $4.68 than the cost of a BB transfer via the NY branch @ $11.25 (using 32 THB per 1 USD exchange rate)

[Pib]

Would someone please list which Thai Banks will allow you to pull the most cash per transaction

I know that SCB allows 20,000 THB per transaction and Bangkok Bank allows 25,000 THB and there have been reports that some banks will allow 30,000 to 35,000 per transaction. Which ones ?

I would be willing to pay the 150 THB foreign card transaction fee if I could pull at or near the maximum daily limit from my US based ATM card (1K$), which would still be cheaper @ $4.68 than the cost of a BB transfer via the NY branch @ $11.25 (using 32 THB per 1 USD exchange rate)

Ubonrthai's earlier #233 post may help.

[Langsuan Man]

Thank you Pib, looks as close as I can get

TMB (blue) ATM 30,000b max and 150b fee

[Rinrada]

Its the END of an era and all contributes to the breakdown in the fabric of society.

Couple of times a month we would hair ass down to Hang Dongs Big C where the Eaon ATM (at the end of the line)always had a happy Q of Thais and Farangs sitting around chatting about life in general whos doing what..etc while waiting to either deposit or withdraw their hard earned moolah.

In my case with the good old Nationwide Flexi card...(got 4 )....but No more.

Now the machine sits in its corner all sad and lonely with no customers...the banter and social contacts have gone and a film of dust now covers its old once so inviting screen...its days of laughter and interation at an end....

As one post mentioned its so much easier to just do a pension transfer every month ...amount say..1 million Baht...but its not so much fun....is it.

Tried buying a 10 Bt coffee with my SCB HIP card but got ....the look....

[Pib]

Thank you Pib, looks as close as I can get

TMB (blue) ATM 30,000b max and 150b fee

I'm in a mall right now...saw a TMB ATM....it does offer Bt30K..I didn't check to see if it might offer more...and it also displayed the Bt150 foreign card fee...I then pressed cancel and returned to my store browsing.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-I9500)

[smedly]

just been out experimenting with my Nationwide Card

Target withdrawal amount was 26k baht

went to the Kasikorn branch first where I have a Thai bank account and they could not perform the withdrawal over the counter, it was strange that they said there was a limit of 20k baht (same as ATM) so they must be trying to process the transaction in branch over the same system and type of transaction

Next I went to Bangkok Bank - up to the counter and said I wanted 26k baht - she took the card and went off for 5 mins and came back with the money and a little slip for me to sign - it seems that they use a different system

Next I will try with my Skrill CC which has an ATM limit of 250 euro and purchase limit of 10000 euro and do the same thing and see what happens, I suspect that the 250 euro limit will not apply

[JimGant]

I would be willing to pay the 150 THB foreign card transaction fee if I could pull at or near the maximum daily limit from my US based ATM card (1K$), which would still be cheaper @ $4.68 than the cost of a BB transfer via the NY branch @ $11.25 (using 32 THB per 1 USD exchange rate)

Actually, if you ACHed $2000 via BB NY, then, yes, that would cost you $11.25. But that 63,640 baht is now sitting in your Bangkok Bank account, and two subsequent 30,000 baht ATM pulls will cost you nothing (let's forget the cost of Be1st ATM card -- who, for me, costs about 4 baht per ATM pull). Now, to get the equivalent two pulls with your fee free US debit/ATM card -- that doesn't reimburse -- will cost you 300 baht. So, you're actually only saving $1.88.

Playing the numbers game even further:

ACH $3769.41 via BB NY, and you'll end up with, after all fees, 120,000 baht in your account (assuming, again, the 32 fx rate). With your fee free ATM card, at 32 to 1, $3769.41 will get you 120,621 baht. But, that's before the 600 baht in fees for 4 x 30,000 ATM pulls. But, yeah, you do save over an ACH transfer -- 65 cents.

ACH $4709.25, and you'll end up with 150,000 in your account. Five ATM pulls with your US ATM card will cost 750 baht. Whoops. It now costs you $1.69 to NOT ACH. And these savings increase the higher amount you ACH.

FX? Not sure how you guess that..... Riots in the street would suggest using the US ATM card for awhile. But, in the last decade, the dollar has dropped from 40 to 30, when you smooth out the perturbations. So this would suggest sending via ACH a large enough chunk to feed off of for several months -- unless, of course,current events suggest otherwise.

But, this is primarily an exercise in spreadsheet mathematics, not practicality. Is the TMB ATM machine your closest option? Is carrying around 30,000 baht in the shopping mall worth it, particularly if you have a local bank in your moo baan?

As shown in many similar threads, only the completely fee free debit/ATM, that reimburses the 150/180 baht ATM owner's fee, is superior to all other methods of bringing money into Thailand (forget money belts and SuperRich, I would think, for most of us reading this). And, oh yeah, you can do better with a US ATM card -- but only if you can't afford to ACH sufficient amounts.

[JimGant]

I don't think a bank would classify a counter withdrawal as an ATM transaction/withdrawal. But whether they'd code it as a "purchase" or perhaps specifically a "bank or counter or cash advance," I don't know. Going to be interested to find out.

I would assume it's classified as an ATM transaction -- just like in the US, where each bank teller has a swipe machine to do a 'swipe and pin' ATM transaction. As there are a zillion different transaction codes, with different payments, it just might be defined as a "Cash Disbursement - Manual," like this from the Visa interchange site:

Cash Disbursement Transactions (Interchange payable from Issuer to Acquirer, in U.S. Dollars)

Visa Inc. Issued Card

Visa Europe Issued Card

Any Visa Prepaid Travel Card

Cash Disbursement – Tier II ATM (No access fee charged to cardholder)

$0.55 + 0.42%

Cash Disbursement – Tier II ATM5 (Access fee charged to cardholder)

$0.50 + 0.15%

Cash Disbursement – Manual

$1.75 + 0.33%

The above, the so-called reverse interchange fee, is the opposite of the pure interchange fee, where the merchant is charged a fee for his sale of a product or a service. Presumably, the merchant would not be selling this product/service if the interchange fee he's paying could not be covered by the profit margin....

....which is why a bank, doling out cash, in either an ATM or cash advance transaction, is not in the 'point of sale' category. Instead, the bank is reimbursed the entire amount of cash disbursed, plus a fee for doing this service. Absolutely no profit margin nor 'purchase' transaction being undertaken. And (excluding DCC) absolutely no FX risk (or potential profit): the bank hands you 25000 baht, he'll be reimbursed exactly 25000 baht, plus fee.

Now, these fees are paid by the issuing bank, and that's why we see you, the cardholder, paying both flat and percentage ATM and cash advance fees to cover such costs. But, the banks are trying to lessen such reimbursement fees, and, along with the networks, have been successful of late. So, you the cardholder may be seeing less ATM and cash advance fees from the issuing end -- but that is why you're seeing more fees at the dispensing end of the chain (or just a 'no can do' from the counter clerk).

[Pib]

Jim,

Let's say that Bt50K cash advance I did last week at a Bangkok Bank branch using my PenFed no foreign transaction/no cash advance fee credit card ended using the Cash Advancement--Manual interchange fee. That would have earned Bangkok Bank the $1.75 + Bt165 fee...or if using Bt32/USD exchange rate on the $1.75 then Bangkok Bank earned Bt221 total off my transaction. And since PenFed absorbs any foreign transaction fees passed along like the Bt221, then PenFed loses out in those cases where they also do not earn any "days of interest" when a person preloads the card balance with an offsetting payment. Sound about right?

Pib

[JimGant]

And since PenFed absorbs any foreign transaction fees passed along like the Bt221, then PenFed loses out in those cases where they also do not earn any "days of interest" when a person preloads the card balance with an offsetting payment. Sound about right?

Yeah, it sounds plausible. But what are they getting out of all of this by using cash advance as a loss leader? Obviously, by eating the 3% upfront fee, plus forgoing instant interest, they're making their card attractive to folks like you -- and everyone on this forum in a similar situation (free advertising, so folks will rush out and order their card). And, hoping the additional cards issued will cover any cash advance loss when used in a normal POS fashion. While also -- at least based on past history on cash advances -- realizing that cash advances are NOT a large percentage of their CC transactions (thus, no great 'loss lead' involved).

We see this more and more with folks like Schwab, advertising their 'no foreign transaction fee' on all the travel venues -- plus, of course, the ATM reimbursement. Hopefully, with their card tied to having to open a brokerage account -- this will cover any loss.. Actually, I bet it does. And I bet Visa doesn't make them eat all that 1% foreign transaction fee -- as long as Schwab remembers to mumble "MasterCard" occasionally.

If you really want to get a headache, look up all the different interchange permutations (credit and debit). You'll begin to see why we had the "swipe fee" war. The merchants can't keep tally of what's what, let alone understand the myriad of rates.

[Pib]

And since PenFed absorbs any foreign transaction fees passed along like the Bt221, then PenFed loses out in those cases where they also do not earn any "days of interest" when a person preloads the card balance with an offsetting payment. Sound about right?

Yeah, it sounds plausible. But what are they getting out of all of this by using cash advance as a loss leader? Obviously, by eating the 3% upfront fee, plus forgoing instant interest, they're making their card attractive to folks like you -- and everyone on this forum in a similar situation (free advertising, so folks will rush out and order their card). And, hoping the additional cards issued will cover any cash advance loss when used in a normal POS fashion. While also -- at least based on past history on cash advances -- realizing that cash advances are NOT a large percentage of their CC transactions (thus, no great 'loss lead' involved).

We see this more and more with folks like Schwab, advertising their 'no foreign transaction fee' on all the travel venues -- plus, of course, the ATM reimbursement. Hopefully, with their card tied to having to open a brokerage account -- this will cover any loss.. Actually, I bet it does. And I bet Visa doesn't make them eat all that 1% foreign transaction fee -- as long as Schwab remembers to mumble "MasterCard" occasionally.

If you really want to get a headache, look up all the different interchange permutations (credit and debit). You'll begin to see why we had the "swipe fee" war. The merchants can't keep tally of what's what, let alone understand the myriad of rates.

I expect most people don't prepay their cash advance like I do on my PenFed credit card; I expect on a worldwide basis the great majority end up paying the cash advance off over X-months which earns PenFed a tidy profit from interest.

[smedly]

the key here is that kasikorn bank told me there was a limit on the transaction the same as their ATM limit - they told me that the transaction couldn't be completed over the counter - so in other words go use the ATM because we make 150 baht with that one

My guess is that this is a policy and they can stick it up their a r se, I watched the guy with my card and he didn't seem to do a lot with it - the fact they are members of the visa/mastercard network would lend me to believe they are breaking some rules by not providing an over the counter service.......TIT

[MrWorldwide]

Its the END of an era and all contributes to the breakdown in the fabric of society.

Couple of times a month we would hair ass down to Hang Dongs Big C where the Eaon ATM (at the end of the line)always had a happy Q of Thais and Farangs sitting around chatting about life in general whos doing what..etc while waiting to either deposit or withdraw their hard earned moolah.

In my case with the good old Nationwide Flexi card...(got 4 )....but No more.

Now the machine sits in its corner all sad and lonely with no customers...the banter and social contacts have gone and a film of dust now covers its old once so inviting screen...its days of laughter and interation at an end....

As one post mentioned its so much easier to just do a pension transfer every month ...amount say..1 million Baht...but its not so much fun....is it.

Tried buying a 10 Bt coffee with my SCB HIP card but got ....the look....

OK, so you're taking the piss - I get that - but is it really necessary to have a jab at those of us who don't have a million baht (!) to transfer into our Thai bank accounts each and every month ? German dentists and Russian oligarchs aside, most TVers are keen to make their shekels go as far as they can - this is simply a discussion of the best way to do that. As clever as your response may be, it's still trolling - please give it a rest.

[Langsuan Man]

I would be willing to pay the 150 THB foreign card transaction fee if I could pull at or near the maximum daily limit from my US based ATM card (1K$), which would still be cheaper @ $4.68 than the cost of a BB transfer via the NY branch @ $11.25 (using 32 THB per 1 USD exchange rate)

Actually, if you ACHed $2000 via BB NY, then, yes, that would cost you $11.25. But that 63,640 baht is now sitting in your Bangkok Bank account, and two subsequent 30,000 baht ATM pulls will cost you nothing (let's forget the cost of Be1st ATM card -- who, for me, costs about 4 baht per ATM pull). Now, to get the equivalent two pulls with your fee free US debit/ATM card -- that doesn't reimburse -- will cost you 300 baht. So, you're actually only saving $1.88.

Playing the numbers game even further:

ACH $3769.41 via BB NY, and you'll end up with, after all fees, 120,000 baht in your account (assuming, again, the 32 fx rate). With your fee free ATM card, at 32 to 1, $3769.41 will get you 120,621 baht. But, that's before the 600 baht in fees for 4 x 30,000 ATM pulls. But, yeah, you do save over an ACH transfer -- 65 cents.

ACH $4709.25, and you'll end up with 150,000 in your account. Five ATM pulls with your US ATM card will cost 750 baht. Whoops. It now costs you $1.69 to NOT ACH. And these savings increase the higher amount you ACH.

FX? Not sure how you guess that..... Riots in the street would suggest using the US ATM card for awhile. But, in the last decade, the dollar has dropped from 40 to 30, when you smooth out the perturbations. So this would suggest sending via ACH a large enough chunk to feed off of for several months -- unless, of course,current events suggest otherwise.

But, this is primarily an exercise in spreadsheet mathematics, not practicality. Is the TMB ATM machine your closest option? Is carrying around 30,000 baht in the shopping mall worth it, particularly if you have a local bank in your moo baan?

As shown in many similar threads, only the completely fee free debit/ATM, that reimburses the 150/180 baht ATM owner's fee, is superior to all other methods of bringing money into Thailand (forget money belts and SuperRich, I would think, for most of us reading this). And, oh yeah, you can do better with a US ATM card -- but only if you can't afford to ACH sufficient amounts.

Unfortunately your scenario doesn't take into account the exchange rate fluctuations that can occur while you are waiting for your Bangkok Bank ACH to clear. At least when I walk away from that ATM machine I know exactly what rate I have gotten. I also don't particularly want to be forced to transfer more than $1,000 US to "take advantage" of the economy of scale a larger ACH gives you

Thanks for your detailed analysis but in my individual circumstances it does not help my cash flow

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Different strokes for different folks.

I'm with LSM on this... When my loose funds are sitting in the U.S., they're earning 3% interest. When I transfer them here into a liquid Thai bank account, they're earning basically nothing.

So, I also prefer to only pull/transfer what I need as I need it. That, and, I don't like or trust keeping any large balance in any Thai bank account.

Lastly, I think, I'm probably inclined to spend MORE if I keep a lot of loose money sitting in accounts here. Keeping it in the U.S. is a kind of self imposed financial discipline...which I like.

I could use Jim's "BKK Bank Xfer once every 3 or 4 months approach." But since I still end up better off financially by doing (now fee-reimbursed) ATM pulls, there's no reason for me to go that way.

But I certainly understand, other people may manage their funds in different ways to suit their own needs and purposes.

[JimGant]

At least when I walk away from that ATM machine I know exactly what rate I have gotten.

Me too. I sent $10k on 6Jan, and when it arrived on 8Jan, I got a 32.94 TT rate. And that's the wad of cash I'm so far still tapping into. So, forgetting fees for the moment, every time I walk away from the ATM machine, I know exactly that I got a 32.94 rate. Plus, I'm not restricted to minimizing ATM pulls, in order to minimize the number of 150 baht charges.

In this situation, I was lucky to ACH when the dollar/baht FX was favorable. Thus, every ATM pull since has beaten what I could have done with the daily Visa FX rate. But that was pure luck, as I'm not smart enough to play the FX crapshoot. And there have been times when the wad I sent arrived at an unfavorable FX period. Thus, a couple months of "unfavorable" ATM pulls, But, on average, in the ten years or so I've been here, the strengthening baht has lent itself to sending large chunks via ACH.

But, obviously, we all do what fits our particular situation. If my money back in the US was tied up in, say, a decent paying CD -- then, yeah, I'd be restricted in the amount of ACH wads I could send. But with interest rates being what they are, I have no 'opportunity cost' by ACHing $10k chunks to Thailand.

[JimGant]

But since I still end up better off financially by doing (now fee-reimbursed) ATM pulls, there's no reason for me to go that way.

Right. We already agree that fee free ATM cards that reimburse the 150 baht fee can't be beat. But what will you do if that trip ends? Restrict yourself to 30k pulls at a TMB ATM machine?

Oh, what do you have liquid funds in that earn 3%?

[ZAKY]

Nothing to do with AEON even i dont want to smell it: i remember at a time they got a counter in MBK to promote the AEON Thai Airways Ccard. I was enquiring about applying for one, there was a staff of 4 young ladies and a man, they impolitely told me that as a foreigner i am not eligible to do it. On that day i felt like being a reject.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

But since I still end up better off financially by doing (now fee-reimbursed) ATM pulls, there's no reason for me to go that way.

Right. We already agree that fee free ATM cards that reimburse the 150 baht fee can't be beat. But what will you do if that trip ends? Restrict yourself to 30k pulls at a TMB ATM machine?

Oh, what do you have liquid funds in that earn 3%?

Not sure what you mean, Jim, about "if that trip ends." Schwab and the various other ATM fee reimbursing, no FCF accounts have been pretty consistent in their policies. So I have no indication those are going to end. And I have multiple of them, so if I were to happen to lose one, I'd still have others to use.

As for the 3% interest, they're in regular FDIC insured "rewards" checking accounts -- higher interest rate earned for making 10-12 POS purchases per month. There aren't a lot of them left at this point because of the long decline in interest rates, but enough for me still.

I don't use these two nationally available 3% accounts shown in my image below, because those in particular have foreign currency fees on their POS and ATM withdrawals.

But there are other comparable accounts available based on one's state of residence (not nationally available) that provide the same interest rates and don't have FCFs, which obviously is an important consideration here.

http://www.depositaccounts.com/checking/reward-checking-accounts.html

Some states still have banks and credit unions offering quite decent interest rates. Some states, unfortunately, have only terrible rates, California being one of those. What's available to any individual depends a lot on the state of their residence. And I'm talking about liquid accounts here, not long-term CDs, which are entirely different issue and discussion.

Edited February 25, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[MrWorldwide]

But what will you do if that trip ends? Restrict yourself to 30k pulls at a TMB ATM machine?

I most definitely will, if and when that day comes.

[JimGant]

Not sure what you mean, Jim, about "if that trip ends." Schwab and the various other ATM fee reimbursing, no FCF accounts have been pretty consistent in their policies. So I have no indication those are going to end. And I have multiple of them, so if I were to happen to lose one, I'd still have others to use.

Purely hypothetical -- although we have seen situations (one) where Schwab revoked their debit/ATM card for undisclosed reasons. And, of course, the 'not having a US address' situation has apparently blocked several TVers from obtaining the fee free, 150 baht reimbursement cards.

Which kinda lends itself to asking Langsuan Man, 'Why don't you have a card that reimburses the 150 baht fee?'

John, thanx for the interest rates info.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Jim, there's a tool on that very good website that allows you to alter the search to include state-based accounts.

And of course, not all accounts are available statewide. Some are only available in particular cities or regions. It's up to each bank or CU to determine their own service areas.

And then, within those results, you'd have to sort thru the details for things like foreign currency fees or charges for using out of network ATMs and various other kinds of issues. That kind of info usually isn't available from the Deposit Accounts website, so you have to look to the individual institutions' websites and/or contact them directly.

It definitely has taken some work, and I've had to change accounts over time after formerly good interest paying accounts cut their rates.

Lately, the pace of interest rate declines in rewards checking accounts seems to have slowed and/or stopped, while there have been some signs of small increases in long-term CD rates. Hard to know how things will face on deposit interest rates for the year ahead.

[Pib]

I see in the list provided there is a bank named Redneck Bank with a Redneck Rewards Checking account paying 2%...that's my kind of bank...I just applied...thanks TallGuy.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-I9500)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

You're joshing me, right Pib?

If it makes you feel better, there's also a First American Bank and AmericaNet Bank on the list of nationally available 2% accounts.

I tend not to joke about making money, especially when it's dollars going into my pocket.

On a serious note, regarding rewards checking accounts, the interest rates are a nice feature, but it's equally important to make sure the account in question isn't charging a foreign currency fee. Otherwise, what you gain on the higher interest rates is undercut by the FCFs charged on your various POS purchases.

A fair number of these accounts also reimburse other banks' ATM fees, although sometimes those are only for U.S. banks' fees, but sometimes it's also for other banks' ATM fees worldwide. The latter are really nice.

Edited February 25, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Oh no, I'm not joshing you. I had the option of either completing an online application or just mailing in a signed photo which proves I look like a redneck...I mailed in the signed photo.

But all joking aside if a bank offered good service, low/no fees, good interest, etc., I don't care what they call themselves.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As I suspected....

But seriously, for example, Schwab's now unfortunately named High Yield Investor's Checking account, at present, is carrying a 0.10% interest rate on balances. The accounts I've listed above are paying 2 - 3 % APY, fully FDIC insured. Where do you want to keep your loose funds...

Edited February 25, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK