Aeon Bank now charge 150 B ATM fee

[JimGant]

630,4$ for 20150THB = 31,96 USD/THB

Obviously your issuing bank is charging fees for you to realize a 31.96 fx rate, as the published Visa rate for Mar 3rd is 32.49 (i.e., the completely fee free rate you would get with a card like Schwab, that 'eats' the network's 1% foreign transaction fee, and adds no fees of their own)

And, of course, when you add in the ATM owner's 150 baht fee, your effective rate drops to 31.72 -- as your math correctly shows.

[Pib]

Why can't you just open a bank account like any other intelligent person instead of moaning about stupid fees,

If you live here for months whats the point of using a foreign ATM card?

Because, surprise to you, it's cheaper to pull money free of fees at ATM or counter, than wire trasnsfer.

Come back saying that it is small money anyway, welcome to my looser list.

No it's not , maybe where you're from , when you transfer money from a bank in Scandinavia to Kasikorn and you do it online , it's almost free and you get the best exchange rate from the bank.

So it makes no sense to me why any expats would use a foreign atm card in Thailand.

Sent from my SM-P601 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

balo,

What Scandinavian bank are you talking about? And do you allow the bank to convert to baht before sending?

Now, you could very well be escaping any Sending bank fees if you are allowing the Sending bank to convert to baht before sending because some banks will waiver/reduce a sending fee if you allow them to convert to baht before sending. I get that feeling since you said "...and you get the best exchange rate from the bank." However, that rate will most likely be several percent below the TT Buying Rate provide by Thai banks. So, the Sending bank effectively charged you a hidden fee via a lower conversion rate and I fully expect they made their rate sound like it was very good/the best (in their biased, fee oriented opinion). Then as already mentioned when the funds arrive Thailand, whether arriving in the foreign currency or already converted to baht, the Thai bank will charge a currency receipt/conversion fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max).

Edited March 4, 2014 by Pib

[Pib]

It would seem many have difficulties !

For me no problems with moving cash from the UK to Thailand.

All that is required is a Bangkok Bank account in Thailand with internet access. Once that account is set up transfers can be made from a UK bank (via an account with internet access) to the Bangkok Bank in London ( no fees involved ).

The Bangkok bank will then transfer money to the Thai account for a minimal fee within 24 hours! Money is credited at the TT rate of exchange .

Similar service is available to Americans !

Are you using the BACS method of funds transfer from your UK bank to Bangkok Bank London which in turn flows it to your in-Thailand Bangkok Bank account? It sounds like it to me. While your UK bank may not charge a sending fee Bangkok Bank London does strip off a fee of either 15 pounds or 20 pounds as the funds flow through them....and then you may still have the in-Thailand Bangkok Bank currency receipt/conversion fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max). Since you said the you get the TT Buying Rate I'm assuming you are sending the funds in pounds which means the 20 pound fee would be applied as the funds flow through their London branch and then another 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) would be applied "before" being posted to your account. Or, if you let the Bangkok Bank London branch do the conversion (I expect they offer a lower exchange rate) then a 15 pounds fee is applied and there is no fee at the in-Thailand Bangkok Bank branch. Whether one or two fees were applied depending on the conversion method chosen neither will appear on your Bangkok Bank account/passbook as both were applied before the funds are posted to your account...this can give the impression no fees were applied but they were indeed applied.

See the fees listed at the Bangkok Bank website talking about using BACS. As you mentioned Americans can use a similar approach using ACH transfer via the Bangkok Bank New York branch but the NY branch also slices off a fee as the funds flow through them and then there is the in-Thailand fee.

[JimGant]

you get the best exchange rate from the bank.

So it makes no sense to me why any expats would use a foreign atm card in Thailand.

Sigh. Even if you could send money completely fee free -- and you could do so in real time -- the Visa rate you'll get will be, on average, several satang better than the rate you'll get with the bank (the buying TT rate).

A chunk of change arriving this morning (4 Mar) at Bankok Bank would have fetched 32.41 (before fees). Had you used an ATM machine before noon, using a completely fee free card like Schwab, you would have received the 32.49 Visa rate. And after noon, when the new daily rate posts, you would have gotten their 32.50 rate. And this would be your effective rate.

However, the wired/ACHed money has front and back end fees. So, sending $10,000 would result in an effective rate of only 32.33 (using Bangkok Bank front and backend fees for a USD ACH transfer).

Much of this discussion and effort, is based on principle, not really about the few dollars saved each month. If you are happy with your financial services and system, that's good, bravo for you

Much of the argument depends on a consistent, stable FX rate. And we know that just isn't the case. Successfully predict where the baht is heading, then one method can suddenly trump another method -- that looks so superior in a stable fx situation.

Or play both ends against the middle. I'm still living off of the $10k I ACHed in early Jan, receiving the 32.94 TT rate (but effective rate, due to fees, of 32.86). So, every time I've done a subsequent ATM pull, I'm realizing that 32.86. I do carry a fee free Schwab card. But should I need a chunk of change today, why would I want to receive only the Visa 32.50 rate -- when I can still realize 32.86 with my Bangkok Bank ATM card...?

Yeah, that chunk will run out, I'll have to do another ACH, and who knows -- maybe Charles will have to take the lead for a spell or so.

Actually, as I approach age 70 -- and now realize my nieces and nephews will be getting way too much of my estate -- I wonder why I'm still counting nickels and dimes. Time to concentrate on really pertinent financial matters -- like never ever having to fly coach again.

[thepool]

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It would seem many have difficulties !

For me no problems with moving cash from the UK to Thailand.

All that is required is a Bangkok Bank account in Thailand with internet access. Once that account is set up transfers can be made from a UK bank (via an account with internet access) to the Bangkok Bank in London ( no fees involved ).

The Bangkok bank will then transfer money to the Thai account for a minimal fee within 24 hours! Money is credited at the TT rate of exchange .

Similar service is available to Americans !

Are you using the BACS method of funds transfer from your UK bank to Bangkok Bank London which in turn flows it to your in-Thailand Bangkok Bank account? It sounds like it to me. While your UK bank may not charge a sending fee Bangkok Bank London does strip off a fee of either 15 pounds or 20 pounds as the funds flow through them....and then you may still have the in-Thailand Bangkok Bank currency receipt/conversion fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max). Since you said the you get the TT Buying Rate I'm assuming you are sending the funds in pounds which means the 20 pound fee would be applied as the funds flow through their London branch and then another 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) would be applied "before" being posted to your account. Or, if you let the Bangkok Bank London branch do the conversion (I expect they offer a lower exchange rate) then a 15 pounds fee is applied and there is no fee at the in-Thailand Bangkok Bank branch. Whether one or two fees were applied depending on the conversion method chosen neither will appear on your Bangkok Bank account/passbook as both were applied before the funds are posted to your account...this can give the impression no fees were applied but they were indeed applied.

See the fees listed at the Bangkok Bank website talking about using BACS. As you mentioned Americans can use a similar approach using ACH transfer via the Bangkok Bank New York branch but the NY branch also slices off a fee as the funds flow through them and then there is the in-Thailand fee.

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I use the FPS service which is much much faster than BACS (virtually an instant transfer).

Clearly there are fees but making large enough transfers mitigates the cost.

[Pib]

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It would seem many have difficulties !

For me no problems with moving cash from the UK to Thailand.

All that is required is a Bangkok Bank account in Thailand with internet access. Once that account is set up transfers can be made from a UK bank (via an account with internet access) to the Bangkok Bank in London ( no fees involved ).

The Bangkok bank will then transfer money to the Thai account for a minimal fee within 24 hours! Money is credited at the TT rate of exchange .

Similar service is available to Americans !

Are you using the BACS method of funds transfer from your UK bank to Bangkok Bank London which in turn flows it to your in-Thailand Bangkok Bank account? It sounds like it to me. While your UK bank may not charge a sending fee Bangkok Bank London does strip off a fee of either 15 pounds or 20 pounds as the funds flow through them....and then you may still have the in-Thailand Bangkok Bank currency receipt/conversion fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max). Since you said the you get the TT Buying Rate I'm assuming you are sending the funds in pounds which means the 20 pound fee would be applied as the funds flow through their London branch and then another 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) would be applied "before" being posted to your account. Or, if you let the Bangkok Bank London branch do the conversion (I expect they offer a lower exchange rate) then a 15 pounds fee is applied and there is no fee at the in-Thailand Bangkok Bank branch. Whether one or two fees were applied depending on the conversion method chosen neither will appear on your Bangkok Bank account/passbook as both were applied before the funds are posted to your account...this can give the impression no fees were applied but they were indeed applied.

See the fees listed at the Bangkok Bank website talking about using BACS. As you mentioned Americans can use a similar approach using ACH transfer via the Bangkok Bank New York branch but the NY branch also slices off a fee as the funds flow through them and then there is the in-Thailand fee.

Capture.JPG

I use the FPS service which is much much faster than BACS (virtually an instant transfer).

Clearly there are fees but making large enough transfers mitigates the cost.

OK, as indicated in the Bangkok Bank website given above, the same fees apply whether you are using FPS or BACS...it's just FPS will get the money to Bangkok Bank London faster/in two hours versus BACS which takes three days. But regardless, Bangkok Bank London then slices off its fee and the in-Thailand Bangkok Bank branch apply their fee.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Pib

[balo]

Why can't you just open a bank account like any other intelligent person instead of moaning about stupid fees,

If you live here for months whats the point of using a foreign ATM card?

Because, surprise to you, it's cheaper to pull money free of fees at ATM or counter, than wire trasnsfer.

Come back saying that it is small money anyway, welcome to my looser list.

No it's not , maybe where you're from , when you transfer money from a bank in Scandinavia to Kasikorn and you do it online , it's almost free and you get the best exchange rate from the bank.

So it makes no sense to me why any expats would use a foreign atm card in Thailand.

Sent from my SM-P601 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

balo,

What Scandinavian bank are you talking about? And do you allow the bank to convert to baht before sending?

Now, you could very well be escaping any Sending bank fees if you are allowing the Sending bank to convert to baht before sending because some banks will waiver/reduce a sending fee if you allow them to convert to baht before sending. I get that feeling since you said "...and you get the best exchange rate from the bank." However, that rate will most likely be several percent below the TT Buying Rate provide by Thai banks. So, the Sending bank effectively charged you a hidden fee via a lower conversion rate and I fully expect they made their rate sound like it was very good/the best (in their biased, fee oriented opinion). Then as already mentioned when the funds arrive Thailand, whether arriving in the foreign currency or already converted to baht, the Thai bank will charge a currency receipt/conversion fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max).

I use Bank2.no and when you make the online transfer you just choose the local currency , in my case NOK so it will not be converted into baht until it arrives Thailand and Kasikorn. Most online banks we can do this so surprised to hear about how difficult it is elsewhere. And the fee for sending is very low too.

Sent from my SM-P601 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It's not difficult to do online international wire transfers from other countries to Thailand. It's just expensive, usually.

Balo, you keep talking about your fees are low, but you didn't even seem to be aware of the Thai bank fees that Kasikorn is charging you on the Thai end.

Nor have you mentioned any specifics about what your local bank is charging you, either as a % of your proceeds or even as flat amount fees.

Without those details, it's kind of difficult to know what's a good deal and what is not.

Provide the specifics of what and how much local currency you sent, what date and what you received in Thai baht. And then we'll all know.

Otherwise, it's just talk.

Edited March 4, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

I use Bank2.no and when you make the online transfer you just choose the local currency , in my case NOK so it will not be converted into baht until it arrives Thailand and Kasikorn. Most online banks we can do this so surprised to hear about how difficult it is elsewhere. And the fee for sending is very low too.

What is the sending fee specifically?

I can find on the site where it talks about how to select how the transfer fee is paid/split, but I can't find where they give the specific fee. Maybe the fee(s) only appears on the transfer page. But since its a SWIFT transfer I expect it's pricey but I'm stand ready to be corrected.

Edited March 4, 2014 by Pib

[balo]

I pay 30 NOK in sending fees , so it's around $5

It's been a while since my last transfer, I do this every 3 months. I know that Kasikorn will give me a good exchange rate in the end , even if they keep a few baht in fees. When you transfer big money like 200k baht I am not too worried about losing 100 baht in fees .

If I only used a foreign ATM card I would be more worried , paying atm fee 150 and different exchange rates every time. Much better with a local bank account and ATM card with no fees at all .

Edited March 4, 2014 by balo

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I pay 30 NOK in sending fees , so it's around $5

It's been a while since my last transfer, I do this every 3 months. I know that Kasikorn will give me a good exchange rate in the end , even if they keep a few baht in fees. When you transfer big money like 200k baht I am not too worried about losing 100 baht in fees .

If I only used a foreign ATM card I would be more worried , paying atm fee 150 and different exchange rates every time. Much better with a local bank account and ATM card with no fees at all .

If all your home country bank is charging you to send an international transfer of funds to Thailand is $5, that's a very good price. By comparison, AFAIK, there would be few if any U.S. or UK banks that have intl transfers priced that low, especially for regular (non BIG deposit) type accounts. More common fees in the U.S. might be $25 to $50 or more per intl wire transfer, by comparison.

And if you're sending 200,000 baht per transfer, that's getting up into the range where international transfers can begin to make economic sense, especially if the bank fees involved are low.

However, based on that amount, Kasikorn would be charging you the full 500 baht receiving fee on their end, plus your $5 home bank sending fee. So we're talking about at least 650 baht in fees for your transfer. That's the equivalent of at least four Thailand ATM pulls (4 X 150 baht), that could produce 120,000 baht in withdrawals.

So the economics already are pretty close, again, assuming there aren't any other transfer fees that you may not be aware of. And without the details of a specific transfer, it's impossible to see just what kind of net exchange rate yield you're achieving after all the dust settles.

Lastly, I beg to differ, Kasikorn is not giving you a "good" exchange rate in the end. They're giving you their buying TT exchange rate, which may be more or less than what other Thai banks are charging that day, and may be more or less than what an ATM pull would yield that day.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Meanwhile, for Americans, I had a friend show me the other day the results of his first Thai ATM fee-reimbursed ATM withdrawal using a Service Credit Union VISA debit card.

And indeed, as advertised, SCU did automatically at month's end refund both the 1% VISA ISA fee they initially charged as well as the 150 baht Thai bank ATM fee, even though it wasn't originally broken out a separate charge in the SCU online banking listings. So, as advertised, the ATM transaction ultimately was fee-free, and the resulting exchange rate matched exactly with the VISA network rate for the day.

As has been mentioned before, the only qualification needed to join SCU is having some past or present military affiliation in your extended family. And to qualify for their foreign ATM fee and VISA ISA fee refunds (up to $20 per month of each), you have to do a direct deposit of a monthly payroll or pension payment into their ServicePlus checking account.

https://www.servicecu.org/civilian/content/Top_checking.asp?

SCU's card has a $1000 per day withdrawal limit. So if you did a single 30,000 baht maximum ATM withdrawal from Ayudhya, TMB or CIMB, that would result in about $9.25 VISA 1% fee refund along with the Thai bank ATM fee refund of about $4.60. Thus, theoretically given the $20 fee reimbursement limits in each category, you could do two such ATM transactions per month using that account and have all the fees reimbursed.

Though, again, as I've mentioned before, it's probably best to not over-use the ATM fee reimbursement feature in any particular account. And if possible, have multiple such accounts so the fee reimbursements can be spread out and spread around.

The end result of this, of course, is accessing your foreign funds without fees and thus beating any fee-based international funds transfer method.

Edited March 5, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

I pay 30 NOK in sending fees , so it's around $5

It's been a while since my last transfer, I do this every 3 months. I know that Kasikorn will give me a good exchange rate in the end , even if they keep a few baht in fees. When you transfer big money like 200k baht I am not too worried about losing 100 baht in fees .

If I only used a foreign ATM card I would be more worried , paying atm fee 150 and different exchange rates every time. Much better with a local bank account and ATM card with no fees at all .

That is a low cost "front-end" for a wire transfer if you are only paying approx $5 to get the funds to front door of your in-Thailand bank and didn't allow the sending bank to convert to baht which sending which would have surely resulted in a lower exchange rate (i.e., hidden fee).

But you will have "back-end" cost also consisting of the in-Thailand bank currency receipt fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min (~$6), Bt500 max ~$16)). So, it sounds like you are escaping with approx $5 + $6 to $16) equals $11 to $21 in total fees per transfer depending the amount sent. This is very similar to what Americans pay when using the ACH funds transfer system to a Bangkok Bank branch.

But for many people, probably the majority of folks, they must use the SWIFT transfer system which is pricey primarily due to the high front Sending costs....SWIFT is a real cash cow for banks.

Your initial posts made it sound like you were escaping with practically no fees but your cost clarification posts confirm you are incurring Sending and Receiving fees which are low enough not to really concern you--but wouldn't it still be great if you could escape with no fees instead of $11 to $21 in fees. Cheers.

[watcharacters]

I won't be doing another cash advance for at least a month since I've got enough cash built-up in my Bangkok Bank accounts to keep me stocked up with Chang beer for a while. Over to you to run a cash advance test with your PenFed credit card and see how that works out.

Thanks Pib! So, at least with BKK Bank, it does sound like you're getting the VISA network rate on your credit card cash advances, which is great overall.

For me, right now, I'm going to be testing out a couple of my other debit cards that I've never done any ATM reimbursements with before, to see whether their reimbursement policies apply only in the U.S. or worldwide. I already have 3 worldwide ATM fee reimbursing debit cards, and that list might get longer depending on what happens with these added two.

Of course, I know you also have some worldwide ATM fee reimbursing debit cards. But right now, you seem to be focused on the fee-free credit card approach, which obviously is the new thing we're exploring right now. But when the dust settles, are you leaning toward making the credit card approach your standard pull, or still keeping a place and use for your debit cards?

I've never had the habit of doing very large ATM pulls, so it's kind of off-putting to me to perhaps have to do 25,000 or 30,000 baht per pull, just to open the door to a credit card cash advance. But, on the other hand, out of a perspective of being economy minded with my ATM fee reimbursements, I suppose I'd end up doing those in at least the 20-25K range to max out the per withdrawal funds from the machines.

I do like do avoid the hassles of dealing with Thai bank branches and Thai bank staff, wherever possible, as well as not schlepping my passport around outside. So if I can still get my 20K or 25K or even 30K once a month via a simple and convenient ATM pull and have the 150 baht fee reimbursed, my initial sense is to lean in that direction. Especially if I'd only be having an ATM fee reimbursed in any particular account maybe once every 3 months. That seems pretty low-key to me.

.

I live here so I only do 30K per transX.

And yes I want to limit the reimbursement cost to the card issuer as well as diminish to the best of my ability the exorbitant fees the banks here like to charge. 150 THB is beyond the pale for me.

[balo]

I pay 30 NOK in sending fees , so it's around $5

It's been a while since my last transfer, I do this every 3 months. I know that Kasikorn will give me a good exchange rate in the end , even if they keep a few baht in fees. When you transfer big money like 200k baht I am not too worried about losing 100 baht in fees .

If I only used a foreign ATM card I would be more worried , paying atm fee 150 and different exchange rates every time. Much better with a local bank account and ATM card with no fees at all .

That is a low cost "front-end" for a wire transfer if you are only paying approx $5 to get the funds to front door of your in-Thailand bank and didn't allow the sending bank to convert to baht which sending which would have surely resulted in a lower exchange rate (i.e., hidden fee).

But you will have "back-end" cost also consisting of the in-Thailand bank currency receipt fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min (~$6), Bt500 max ~$16)). So, it sounds like you are escaping with approx $5 + $6 to $16) equals $11 to $21 in total fees per transfer depending the amount sent. This is very similar to what Americans pay when using the ACH funds transfer system to a Bangkok Bank branch.

But for many people, probably the majority of folks, they must use the SWIFT transfer system which is pricey primarily due to the high front Sending costs....SWIFT is a real cash cow for banks.

Your initial posts made it sound like you were escaping with practically no fees but your cost clarification posts confirm you are incurring Sending and Receiving fees which are low enough not to really concern you--but wouldn't it still be great if you could escape with no fees instead of $11 to $21 in fees. Cheers.

Yes I accept the fact that there will always be some fees with international transfers, as you suggest maybe Kasikorn keep 2-300 baht but I would get a better exchange rate than I would get from the Norwegian bank so in the end I feel I get most out of it.

And with a Kasikorn atm and Visa card there are no fees for small withdrawals as long as you use the Kasikorn ATMs and you can use it in shops everywhere, also buying stuff online . Their K-cyberbanking is very easy to use if you want to transfer money to other accounts in Thailand.

Sent from my SM-P601 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited March 5, 2014 by balo

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yes I accept the fact that there will always be some fees with international transfers, as you suggest maybe Kasikorn keep 2-300 baht

but I would get a better exchange rate than I would get from the Norwegian bank so in the end I feel I get most out of it.

On a 200,000 baht transfer, the amount you mentioned above, the Thai bank's 0.25% receiving fee would amount to 500 baht, which is their maximum fee. So any larger transfer would still have the receiving bank fee capped at 500 baht.

But you're right about the second point: when sending money into Thailand, you NEVER want your home country bank to handle the currency exchange to baht. You ALWAYS want the receiving Thai bank to do the currency exchange, because the rates in Thailand are going to be much better for baht exchange than those offered abroad.

[paz]

K-bank also charges another fee on receiving transfers to accounts not based in BKK. But it is really small.

[Pib]

Pib, there's some good info here. Thanks.

My question is, and perhaps this has been asked already, any credit card will list, under Balances, "Purchases" and "Cash Advances" (with the advances portion usually subject to higher interest rates). On the day of your counter withdrawal here, you logged in to Penfed and did a ACH transfer from another bank to cover/pay the cash advance. In other words, you are pre-paying for that cash advance. The question now becomes, how do you know that the ACH transfer will be applied to "Cash Advances" and not to "Purchases"?? In a sense you are overpaying your balances, but this may just create a "credit" balance in your "Purchases" portion. I believe that something along those lines might be stated in the Terms of Agreement.

If I were you, I would wait to see that statement issued, to see how those prepayments were categorized.

From the PenFed card agreement, the order of payments follow (and I think this is standard for all U.S. credit cards based on U.S. law which went in effect about a half dozen years ago due to industry abuse of the customer in applying credit card payments when a balance had various types of charges)

You understand and agree that payments will be applied

first to the card balance bearing the highest rate of interest,

then to each successive balance bearing the next highest rate

of interest until the payment is exhausted. You understand

and agree that payments will be applied in the following

order: (1) late payment fee; (2) finance charge; (3) annual

membership fee (if any); (4) paper statement fee (if any); (5)

credit life fee (if any); (6) previous balance cash advances;

(7) previous balance purchases; (8) new cash advances; and

(9) new purchases.

As you see, previous balance cash balances are paid before previous balance purchases and new cash advances are paid before new purchases. Basically, between cash advances and purchases, cash advances get fed before purchases. But a person must remember other charges get fed even before cash advances or purchases. For me I have been prepaying my "entire" balance of cash advances and purchases...I was only paying the entire balance to play it safe since I was during this cash advance thing. However, on this cycle and most cycles I don't have any purchases transactions, because up till now it's only been the two cash advances as rarely used my PenFed credit card for everyday purchases (except to exercise it a few times a year just to keep it active) because this PenFed credit card cash back reward program only applies to pay-at-the-pump fuel purchases (i.e., slide you card into a self serve fuel pump) which Thailand don't do. My card is the Plus card that pays 5% cash back on fuel and the Standard card pays 3%....the card pays zero on regular purchases like buying groceries or purchase like that. So I use my CapOne no foreign transaction fee Visa/Mastercad credit cards which pay 1.5% cash back on everything....the CapOne Visa card now gets used the great majority of the time over the CapOne Mastercard although the two cards cash back rewards programs are identical since the Visa exchange rate is usually just a little better than the Mastercard exchange rate.

Yes, when my monthly statement occurs in another week or so I will know the final answer on did my prepayments which occurred on the same day as the cash advances and fully covered the cash balances (actually the entire card balance for any and all transactions) has prevented any days of interest being charged. I already know there will be no separate foreign transaction fee or cash advance fee since that is standard for PenFed credit cards and one of their big pluses.

Got the monthly statement a few minutes ago. The final results are in as to whether my two same day payments offsetting the two cash advances would result in no interest charge. The result was no interest charges....and of course no foreign transaction fee or cash advance fee since PenFed credit cards don't charge those two fees.

The two cash advances were just listed in the "Transactions" section like where purchases appears, not in any separate Cash Advance section. However, in the summary table which shows your previous balance going into to the new monthly cycle plus total payments received does show a Cash Advance amount. In below cut and paste you'll see my starting balance (bill due) which was paid in full a few days after the statement issued to avoid any interest, Total Payments rec'd during the current billing cycle was the payment I just mentioned plus the two cash advance prepayments, Purchases (which I did none this month), Cash Advances Amount (I did two cash advances totaling over $3,000), Other Debits, Fees Charged (zero) and Interest Charged (zero).

Summary: the cash advances did show up as cash advances but my same day payments resulted in no interest charges. I still have the $4.85 "credit" on my account just as I did a few days ago before my current monthly statement was processed. This also means I have a way to get up to $2,000 (approx. Bt65K) per day immediately in-hand with absolutely no transfer fees or cash advance/interest fees....I think I just fell in love with my PenFed credit card...but won't be surprised if Thai bankers try to breakup that relationship as they just hate "free."

[elzach]

Pib, there's some good info here. Thanks.

My question is, and perhaps this has been asked already, any credit card will list, under Balances, "Purchases" and "Cash Advances" (with the advances portion usually subject to higher interest rates). On the day of your counter withdrawal here, you logged in to Penfed and did a ACH transfer from another bank to cover/pay the cash advance. In other words, you are pre-paying for that cash advance. The question now becomes, how do you know that the ACH transfer will be applied to "Cash Advances" and not to "Purchases"?? In a sense you are overpaying your balances, but this may just create a "credit" balance in your "Purchases" portion. I believe that something along those lines might be stated in the Terms of Agreement.

If I were you, I would wait to see that statement issued, to see how those prepayments were categorized.

From the PenFed card agreement, the order of payments follow (and I think this is standard for all U.S. credit cards based on U.S. law which went in effect about a half dozen years ago due to industry abuse of the customer in applying credit card payments when a balance had various types of charges)

You understand and agree that payments will be applied

first to the card balance bearing the highest rate of interest,

then to each successive balance bearing the next highest rate

of interest until the payment is exhausted. You understand

and agree that payments will be applied in the following

order: (1) late payment fee; (2) finance charge; (3) annual

membership fee (if any); (4) paper statement fee (if any); (5)

credit life fee (if any); (6) previous balance cash advances;

(7) previous balance purchases; (8) new cash advances; and

(9) new purchases.

As you see, previous balance cash balances are paid before previous balance purchases and new cash advances are paid before new purchases. Basically, between cash advances and purchases, cash advances get fed before purchases. But a person must remember other charges get fed even before cash advances or purchases. For me I have been prepaying my "entire" balance of cash advances and purchases...I was only paying the entire balance to play it safe since I was during this cash advance thing. However, on this cycle and most cycles I don't have any purchases transactions, because up till now it's only been the two cash advances as rarely used my PenFed credit card for everyday purchases (except to exercise it a few times a year just to keep it active) because this PenFed credit card cash back reward program only applies to pay-at-the-pump fuel purchases (i.e., slide you card into a self serve fuel pump) which Thailand don't do. My card is the Plus card that pays 5% cash back on fuel and the Standard card pays 3%....the card pays zero on regular purchases like buying groceries or purchase like that. So I use my CapOne no foreign transaction fee Visa/Mastercad credit cards which pay 1.5% cash back on everything....the CapOne Visa card now gets used the great majority of the time over the CapOne Mastercard although the two cards cash back rewards programs are identical since the Visa exchange rate is usually just a little better than the Mastercard exchange rate.

Yes, when my monthly statement occurs in another week or so I will know the final answer on did my prepayments which occurred on the same day as the cash advances and fully covered the cash balances (actually the entire card balance for any and all transactions) has prevented any days of interest being charged. I already know there will be no separate foreign transaction fee or cash advance fee since that is standard for PenFed credit cards and one of their big pluses.

Got the monthly statement a few minutes ago. The final results are in as to whether my two same day payments offsetting the two cash advances would result in no interest charge. The result was no interest charges....and of course no foreign transaction fee or cash advance fee since PenFed credit cards don't charge those two fees.

The two cash advances were just listed in the "Transactions" section like where purchases appears, not in any separate Cash Advance section. However, in the summary table which shows your previous balance going into to the new monthly cycle plus total payments received does show a Cash Advance amount. In below cut and paste you'll see my starting balance (bill due) which was paid in full a few days after the statement issued to avoid any interest, Total Payments rec'd during the current billing cycle was the payment I just mentioned plus the two cash advance prepayments, Purchases (which I did none this month), Cash Advances Amount (I did two cash advances totaling over $3,000), Other Debits, Fees Charged (zero) and Interest Charged (zero).

Summary: the cash advances did show up as cash advances but my same day payments resulted in no interest charges. I still have the $4.85 "credit" on my account just as I did a few days ago before my current monthly statement was processed. This also means I have a way to get up to $2,000 (approx. Bt65K) per day immediately in-hand with absolutely no transfer fees or cash advance/interest fees....I think I just fell in love with my PenFed credit card...but won't be surprised if Thai bankers try to breakup that relationship as they just hate "free."

Capture.JPG

Pib, thanks, yes you got a great deal there!

I have a PenFed regular deposit account, and the DEBIT card, and when I called them almost a year ago they said they charge $3 + 2% for a foreign transaction fee. Big difference.

So going back to the CapOne CCs, I have two. Yes no FTF, but there is a cash advance fee, right?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yes... most Cap One credit cards are good when it comes to not having foreign currency fees.

But, I believe, they're just like the other big banks when it comes to cash advances, meaning upfront fees and higher interest rates on cash advances vs. purchases. Last time I checked, their cash advance rate was 3% with a minimum $10 charge, and an interest rate that was almost double my quite low purchase rate.

And yes, I agree about PFCU's debit card. It's unfortunate that when PFCU eliminated the foreign currency fees on pretty much all of their credit card products, they for some reason left a 2% FCF on use of their debit and ATM cards outside the U.S.

Meanwhile, Pib, can you recap on just how you handled the PFCU payment transfers. Did you use PFCU's own ACH system to pull in the funds from an external account? And if so, how did you line up timing of the incoming payments vs. the date of the cash advances on the credit cards?

Edited March 5, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[elzach]

I pay 30 NOK in sending fees , so it's around $5

It's been a while since my last transfer, I do this every 3 months. I know that Kasikorn will give me a good exchange rate in the end , even if they keep a few baht in fees. When you transfer big money like 200k baht I am not too worried about losing 100 baht in fees .

If I only used a foreign ATM card I would be more worried , paying atm fee 150 and different exchange rates every time. Much better with a local bank account and ATM card with no fees at all .

That is a low cost "front-end" for a wire transfer if you are only paying approx $5 to get the funds to front door of your in-Thailand bank and didn't allow the sending bank to convert to baht which sending which would have surely resulted in a lower exchange rate (i.e., hidden fee).

But you will have "back-end" cost also consisting of the in-Thailand bank currency receipt fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min (~$6), Bt500 max ~$16)). So, it sounds like you are escaping with approx $5 + $6 to $16) equals $11 to $21 in total fees per transfer depending the amount sent. This is very similar to what Americans pay when using the ACH funds transfer system to a Bangkok Bank branch.

But for many people, probably the majority of folks, they must use the SWIFT transfer system which is pricey primarily due to the high front Sending costs....SWIFT is a real cash cow for banks.

Your initial posts made it sound like you were escaping with practically no fees but your cost clarification posts confirm you are incurring Sending and Receiving fees which are low enough not to really concern you--but wouldn't it still be great if you could escape with no fees instead of $11 to $21 in fees. Cheers.

For Pib and TallGuy, yes this is the issue, SWIFT wire transfers are normally expensive, very expensive. But my understanding is that for European and Asian banks, they have to be used.

Also, I haven't seen this mentioned re: SWIFT wire transfers, but I would be very surprised if there is no additional (hefty) fee for the intermediary (correspondent) bank, usually anywhere from $15 to $30. Intermediary, for the uninitiated, means a bank (with no presence in the receiving country) sending thru Citibank for example, Citi forwards to Kasikorn (and keeps a nice fee).

[Pib]

Just apply for a Penfed credit card since you already have a Penfed deposit/shares acct. Yeap, the CapOne cards have a cash advance fee.

Sent from my Onda V971 tablet

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For Pib and TallGuy, yes this is the issue, SWIFT wire transfers are normally expensive, very expensive. But my understanding is that for European and Asian banks, they have to be used.

Also, I haven't seen this mentioned re: SWIFT wire transfers, but I would be very surprised if there is no additional (hefty) fee for the intermediary (correspondent) bank, usually anywhere from $15 to $30. Intermediary, for the uninitiated, means a bank (with no presence in the receiving country) sending thru Citibank for example, Citi forwards to Kasikorn (and keeps a nice fee).

I'm not sure what you mean about wire transfers "have to be used" for Asian and European banks. The BKK Bank New York and London transfer routes to Thailand are methods that differ from the traditional international wire transfers, cost much less, and involve no intermediary banks.

But as for traditional international wire transfers, indeed, I mentioned the added fees often charged by so-called intermediary banks in one of my responses above to Balo. I haven't send a traditional international wire in almost a decade, but the last time I did was from the U.S. to Thailand via BofA. And sure enough, there was an intermediary bank involved and they added a hefty fee of their own.

And the bad part about that for me, unless it's changed since then, is I could always know and find out what my sending bank's fee was going to be for sending an international wire. But I could never seem to get them to tell me in advance what kind of fee the intermediary would be charging or even which intermediary was going to be involved.

[Pib]

Yes... Cap One credit cards are good, generally, when it comes to not having foreign currency fees.

But, I believe, they're just like the other big banks when it comes to cash advances, meaning upfront fees and higher interest rates on cash advances vs. purchases.

And yes, I agree about PFCU's debit card. It's unfortunate that when PFCU eliminated the foreign currency fees on pretty much all of their credit card products, they for some reason left a 2% FCF on use of their debit card outside the U.S.

Meanwhile, Pib, can you recap on just how you handled the PFCU payment transfers. Did you use PFCU's own ACH system to pull in the funds from an external account? And if so, how did you line up timing of the incoming payments vs. the date of the cash advances on the credit cards?

I initiated the ACH on the Penfed system via an ACH transfer link I already had setup to one of my other banks. I initiated the ACH payment same day/about an hour after I got back from doing the counter withdrawal... Penfed immediately credits the ACH pull/payment to your credit card account... they don't wait for it to actually arrive/clear days later. Apparently, ACH and check payments are credited immediately to credit card accounts.... of course if the ACH payment or check bounces/rejects a few days later due to insufficient funds the you'll be paying some interest.

Sent from my Onda V971 tablet

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks Pib... That's NEAT... so as long as you're using the PFCU credit card approach, you can actuallly go out to the Thai bank, do the cash advance, and then come back home to make the online payment transaction from a linked external account into the PFCU credit card account. And it all gets reconciled and canceled out without fees the same day.

What a spendid way of handling things.... assuming the Thai bank branch a person visits is willing to do the advance transaction.

I think it's unfortunate, though, that no one else here seems to have identified any other credit card providers who have no foreign currency fee / no cash advance fee credit cards. It would be nice to broaden the pool of potential credit cards some, beyond PFCU and the State Department Federal Credit Union card I identified previously.

https://www.sdfcu.org/emv-creditcards

Re joining SDFCU:

As a consumer, you may be eligible to join our credit union through the American Consumer Council (ACC), a nonprofit advocacy group. When opening your SDFCU account you will need to choose ACC on your application.

Edited March 5, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Someone else mentioned in a related thread the other day that they thought UOB ATMs might have a higher withdrawal limit...

UOB for farangs seems to be one of those kind of marginal banks, perhaps like Standard Chartered, that doesn't get used or talked about too much.

So, anyone here have any experience with trying a 30,000b or greater withdrawal from a UOB ATM???

[balo]

I pay 30 NOK in sending fees , so it's around $5

It's been a while since my last transfer, I do this every 3 months. I know that Kasikorn will give me a good exchange rate in the end , even if they keep a few baht in fees. When you transfer big money like 200k baht I am not too worried about losing 100 baht in fees .

If I only used a foreign ATM card I would be more worried , paying atm fee 150 and different exchange rates every time. Much better with a local bank account and ATM card with no fees at all .

That is a low cost "front-end" for a wire transfer if you are only paying approx $5 to get the funds to front door of your in-Thailand bank and didn't allow the sending bank to convert to baht which sending which would have surely resulted in a lower exchange rate (i.e., hidden fee).

But you will have "back-end" cost also consisting of the in-Thailand bank currency receipt fee of 0.25% (Bt200 min (~$6), Bt500 max ~$16)). So, it sounds like you are escaping with approx $5 + $6 to $16) equals $11 to $21 in total fees per transfer depending the amount sent. This is very similar to what Americans pay when using the ACH funds transfer system to a Bangkok Bank branch.

But for many people, probably the majority of folks, they must use the SWIFT transfer system which is pricey primarily due to the high front Sending costs....SWIFT is a real cash cow for banks.

Your initial posts made it sound like you were escaping with practically no fees but your cost clarification posts confirm you are incurring Sending and Receiving fees which are low enough not to really concern you--but wouldn't it still be great if you could escape with no fees instead of $11 to $21 in fees. Cheers.

For Pib and TallGuy, yes this is the issue, SWIFT wire transfers are normally expensive, very expensive. But my understanding is that for European and Asian banks, they have to be used.

Also, I haven't seen this mentioned re: SWIFT wire transfers, but I would be very surprised if there is no additional (hefty) fee for the intermediary (correspondent) bank, usually anywhere from $15 to $30. Intermediary, for the uninitiated, means a bank (with no presence in the receiving country) sending thru Citibank for example, Citi forwards to Kasikorn (and keeps a nice fee).

No there are no intermediary fees here , I have checked this before , the sending fee of $5 and the current exchange rate in Thailand , I have noticed a few hundred baht difference , if it was more than that a transfer would cost me more than 1000 baht and I know that's not the case.

[SurfRider]

.
Schwab Anomaly: I attempted my first 30K pull from my local TMB bank yesterday. No problem with the 30K part, but the transaction was refused. First time in almost 10 years in Thailand that I ran into that. Tried CIMB - same-same.

I called Schwab - after navigating their brutal security gauntlet, a very accommodating CSR checked and said that both attempts had flagged their fraud monitor. He cleared the account and assured me that I would probably not have any more problems. I asked why the account had been flagged, but he didn't know.

He said in a case like this they file a report with their fraud unit so they can look for past patterns and adjust their fraud monitor. Everything was OK today, but I didn't like the comment about "looking for past patterns" I'm hoping their fraud police are not concerned with repetitive withdrawals from Thailand and an extensive amount of reimbursals of the Thai banker's usury fee. Time will tell . . .
.

[Langsuan Man]

.

Schwab Anomaly: I attempted my first 30K pull from my local TMB bank yesterday. No problem with the 30K part, but the transaction was refused. First time in almost 10 years in Thailand that I ran into that. Tried CIMB - same-same.

I called Schwab - after navigating their brutal security gauntlet, a very accommodating CSR checked and said that both attempts had flagged their fraud monitor. He cleared the account and assured me that I would probably not have any more problems. I asked why the account had been flagged, but he didn't know.

He said in a case like this they file a report with their fraud unit so they can look for past patterns and adjust their fraud monitor. Everything was OK today, but I didn't like the comment about "looking for past patterns" I'm hoping their fraud police are not concerned with repetitive withdrawals from Thailand and an extensive amount of reimbursals of the Thai banker's usury fee. Time will tell . . .

.

Pib et. al. Has this happened with State Farm Bank yet ? If Schwab is considered brutal by SurfRider he has no idea of what State Farm is like. I ran the SF gauntlet the other day, just trying to obtain their Routing number for Social Security and it seems that every time I try and access my SF account I have to jump through these hoops

[JimGant]

I asked why the account had been flagged, but he didn't know.

As I recall, Schwab wants a phone call alerting them to any foreign travel (can't do this online). And, I don't think you can tell them to just annotate your card as 'full time in Thailand.' (which might raise its own flag, considering that Schwab, at least by some reports, likes you to have some US presence).

I wonder if using your card for a certain frequency in Thailand obviates the need to phone in a travel alert....? Or, if off frequency, then, yes, you must do a phone alert.....?