What if Thailand gave all of Isaan/Laos to the French in the first place?

[90dayz]

I know we wouldn't have attained #1 rice exporter status, but would the country (at least in terms of HDI) have been much better off? Laos would've still had their country in one piece and Thailand wouldn't have much to deal with the rural poor. I'm aware the North make up the other half of the red shirt population, but they're still much better off than the Northeast and (pretty much) secretly hate them. After all, "Thai" derived from the Central's obsession with the North (Tai).

[manarak]

My opinion is that even with that huge advantage, France would still not succeed.

[Thai at Heart]

Isaan is not the best place in the country to grow rice. Plenty of labour, no water.

I think all that has really happened is that a bunch of families in Bangkok made a boat load of money out of Isaan.

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

[thailandbeachisland]

France would be a nice place to travel or even to live !!!

[90dayz]

Isaan is not the best place in the country to grow rice. Plenty of labour, no water.

I think all that has really happened is that a bunch of families in Bangkok made a boat load of money out of Isaan.

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

Vietnam is a different culture from the Tai family (Thailand, Cambodia, Laos), so I don't think they'll ever want to unify. They have more in common with the CJK, and there's a reason they tend to get lumped into that array.

[Thai at Heart]

Isaan is not the best place in the country to grow rice. Plenty of labour, no water.

I think all that has really happened is that a bunch of families in Bangkok made a boat load of money out of Isaan.

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

Vietnam is a different culture from the Tai family (Thailand, Cambodia, Laos), so I don't think they'll ever want to unify. They have more in common with the CJK, and there's a reason they tend to get lumped into that array.

How long is that historical separation been around? 500 years? 1000 years?

More than enough time for it to have become unified.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[90dayz]

Isaan is not the best place in the country to grow rice. Plenty of labour, no water.

I think all that has really happened is that a bunch of families in Bangkok made a boat load of money out of Isaan.

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

Vietnam is a different culture from the Tai family (Thailand, Cambodia, Laos), so I don't think they'll ever want to unify. They have more in common with the CJK, and there's a reason they tend to get lumped into that array.

How long is that historical separation been around? 500 years? 1000 years?

More than enough time for it to have become unified.

Your last sentence is not making any sense. Chinese characters (or Chu nom as they call it in Vietnamese) has only been phased out in favor of the Latin alphabet for less than 100 years (same with Hanja for Hangul in the Korean peninsula). Besides, have you ever tried Vietnamese cuisine? It's got a common taste bud with Cantonese (at least for me).

[h90]

What is if San Marino would have conquered China

What is if Japan would be in Europe

What is if humans would have never develop the wheel

[Ajaan]

Isaan is not the best place in the country to grow rice. Plenty of labour, no water.

I think all that has really happened is that a bunch of families in Bangkok made a boat load of money out of Isaan.

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

Humans never should have gone to live (and especially farm rice!) in Isaan in large numbers...and you know what? They DIDN'T.

The ancestors of the population of Isaan today were forcibly dragged there ("relocated") by the Thai army, first in 1782 and again (especially) in 1827, after wars with the Lao, with the reasoning that the Lao population would be easier to control if they were on land closer to and more easily administered by Bangkok. Never mind that the land was only barely, if at all, arable.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Ajaan

[stickylies]

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

er ? that's like uniting germany with spain... me thinks u don't understand the differences between thai, khmer and vietnamese...

[gamini]

We could have had decent western food in Isaan (French)

[lucjoker]

france????

Half of france went with the germans in 40-45 .

Following the defeat in June 1940, President Albert Lebrun appointed Marshal Pétain as premier.

Marshal Pétain " collaborated" with the German occupying forces in exchange for an agreement not to divide France between the Axis powers(Germany,Italyand Japan)

It would have been a good idea to devide France between germany and Italy,because the population would have spoken now at least 2 languages ! Now the poor french

have to go on holliday in theier ex-colonies to make themselves understandable OR learn english or spanish or portugese ...........

Am i right or not ?

aux armes citoyens !

[ABCer]

Thais deficiency in English would be reinforced by deficiency in French.

On the other hand the Viets, Laos and Cams would be looking at Thais the way Thais look at their own 'lower' ethnicity people.

Maybe Thais would stop overcooking their beautiful food.

[ABCer]

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

er ? that's like uniting germany with spain... me thinks u don't understand the differences between thai, khmer and vietnamese...

I'm not sure about the differences but do they boil down to

Viets can fight anybody;

Khmers can fight only their own unarmed population;

Thais can fight nobody;

???????? Was it all?

Oh, yeasss, Thais don't eat dogs!

[Gambles]

The various actions of the various imperial powers(UK, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal, USA, France and even Japan etc) have left some kinds of lasting marks on South East Asia but the impact of that has also been determined by the respective states (no pun) of development of the various South East Asian nations themselves - Thailand was really much more of a feudal federation at that time - what we're finding out now is far Thailand has developed (or not) since then

[Gillyflower]

Reply to Simple 1

My husband was a British citizen but French background. He took the last boat out of Shanghai to get to England in 1940 (I think). It took - I believe - 3 months round the Cape.Because his MOTHER tongue was French (he was quite bilingual) they told him about some chap called De G....and that he had better go to be with him. He was 997 on the FFF. I actually met No 1 once. He had come down from Norway with his CO. The CO let his men have the honour of signing first. All in all they were only 2000 - the rest waited 3 years to see who was going to win the war before choosing their side.

[NoshowJones]

France would be a nice place to travel or even to live !!!

I have been in France, and I have to say you could not meet more ignorant people, I knew a Frenchman here for quite a long time, and along with two guys from Yorkshire, they were very unpopular among the other Farangs in the surrounding area. Now they are gone and there is no problem with anybody.

[kennypowers]

This notion that all Isaan people are poor is the first stupid generalisation here. The second is that all "North" people hate them. What a load of tripe. There is 65m people in Thailand, of which 22 odd million live in Isaan – so when taking the country as a whole, of course they are disproportionately represented as poorer. The same can be said when looking at the demographics of prostitution in Thailand. But anyone who has family in the region, particularly in the more affluent provinces will know that like anywhere else there are the poor, those who do okay, the middle class and the very rich. The North has poverty to that which equals the poorest in Isaan, fact. See the outskirts of Lampang, for starters.

[helle]

ISAAN = LOG and RIP ( Land of Greed and REST In Paradise ! Farmers !)

[GuyL]

Ok. So, this topic seems to be a good pretext for another round of French bashing by some people. As I wrote it in another (now closed) recent thread, in my experience, most nationals from every country are decent people.

It's not because you have had a bad experience with a few individuals from a specific country that you should feel entitled to imply that all or a majority of their fellow countrymen and women are all the same and better to be avoided as a whole.

Broad generalisations are just stupid and untrue most of the time. I am sure that each national from every country is different in many ways from his or her fellow countrymen and women. Even two identical twins do not have the same personality. So, why do people think that it's ok to make broad sweeping generalisations about another nationality? Those who make that kind of statements are not showing their brightest side if you ask me, and that's quite an understatement!

Edited February 15, 2014 by GuyL

[LALes]

Ever drive from LA to Vegas thru the Mojave Desert? God forsaken hell holes like Victorville, Barstow and Baker along the way.

Isaan is the Thai equivalent. Hot, brown and dusty with no end in sight. Can't get thru it fast enough.

[simple1]

Reply to Simple 1

My husband was a British citizen but French background. He took the last boat out of Shanghai to get to England in 1940 (I think). It took - I believe - 3 months round the Cape.Because his MOTHER tongue was French (he was quite bilingual) they told him about some chap called De G....and that he had better go to be with him. He was 997 on the FFF. I actually met No 1 once. He had come down from Norway with his CO. The CO let his men have the honour of signing first. All in all they were only 2000 - the rest waited 3 years to see who was going to win the war before choosing their side.

True that many wanted repatriation to France, but does not detract to the overall contribution during WW11. It is estimated more than 230,000 Free French Forces were killed or wounded in action; hardly equates to sitting on their hands. By the end of the war were the fourth largest army in Europe with a million plus members.

[Smurkster]

Isaan is not the best place in the country to grow rice. Plenty of labour, no water.

I think all that has really happened is that a bunch of families in Bangkok made a boat load of money out of Isaan.

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

Vietnam is a different culture from the Tai family (Thailand, Cambodia, Laos), so I don't think they'll ever want to unify. They have more in common with the CJK, and there's a reason they tend to get lumped into that array.

Thailand and Laos are the only ones that you mentioned there that are part of the "Tai" family. The Khmers are actually in the family of "Mon-Khmer" people, just as the Vietnamese people/language are classified.

As far as I know the major "Tai" groups are: The Lao, The Tai Yuan (LannaThai), The Dai of Yunnan, The Shan of Burma and finally the "Siamese" or Central Thai or "Thai Proper" the modern thai nation state was evolved on the domination of the Siamese. (the subjugation of the Lanna Kingdom in the 1700's and the subsequent subjugation of the Lao people in the the 1820's. While all these said groups are related linguistically and culturally, they do have their own differences. I find it kind of sad however that due to the "Thaiification" processes started by Chulongkorn, a "Tai Yuan" identity or "Lao" Identity have really been quashed in favor an all encompassing "Thai" culture. but its also a mixed bag, living in Isan I have heard many people tell me that they identify much more closely with their brethren across the river in Laos proper, than they do with their fellow country men in Bangkok

[delh]

Reply to Simple 1

My husband was a British citizen but French background. He took the last boat out of Shanghai to get to England in 1940 (I think). It took - I believe - 3 months round the Cape.Because his MOTHER tongue was French (he was quite bilingual) they told him about some chap called De G....and that he had better go to be with him. He was 997 on the FFF. I actually met No 1 once. He had come down from Norway with his CO. The CO let his men have the honour of signing first. All in all they were only 2000 - the rest waited 3 years to see who was going to win the war before choosing their side.

True that many wanted repatriation to France, but does not detract to the overall contribution during WW11. It is estimated more than 230,000 Free French Forces were killed or wounded in action; hardly equates to sitting on their hands. By the end of the war were the fourth largest army in Europe with a million plus members.

Not that many died then, compared to Russian, German, British, Polish? See wikipedia.

Edited February 15, 2014 by delh

[Muhendis]

The Laos and Isaan people would live in a french speaking country split in half by the Mekong. The culture would be with a French flavour and the roads would be frequently blocked by disgruntled farmers.

[tyler2208]

the food would be better

so would the maids uniform

and the local farangs would be known as "le Atm"

Edited February 15, 2014 by tyler2208

[delh]

France would be a nice place to travel or even to live !!!

I have been in France, and I have to say you could not meet more ignorant people, I knew a Frenchman here for quite a long time, and along with two guys from Yorkshire, they were very unpopular among the other Farangs in the surrounding area. Now they are gone and there is no problem with anybody.

I can't help but wonder just how long you were in France? Having worked there, may I disagree?

[NoshowJones]

France would be a nice place to travel or even to live !!!

I have been in France, and I have to say you could not meet more ignorant people, I knew a Frenchman here for quite a long time, and along with two guys from Yorkshire, they were very unpopular among the other Farangs in the surrounding area. Now they are gone and there is no problem with anybody.

I can't help but wonder just how long you were in France? Having worked there, may I disagree?

I was in Paris for only three days, and it was enough. Just my experience, and what dreadful people the French guy and the two Yorkshire guys here in Thailand were. The French guy actually got put in hospital by a young Thai guy because of his dreadful attitude.

[GOLDBUGGY]

france????

Half of france went with the germans in 40-45 .

Following the defeat in June 1940, President Albert Lebrun appointed Marshal Pétain as premier.

Marshal Pétain " collaborated" with the German occupying forces in exchange for an agreement not to divide France between the Axis powers(Germany,Italyand Japan)

It would have been a good idea to devide France between germany and Italy,because the population would have spoken now at least 2 languages ! Now the poor french

have to go on holliday in theier ex-colonies to make themselves understandable OR learn english or spanish or portugese ...........

Am i right or not ?

aux armes citoyens !

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Well, actually you are not right or even close to being right!

Had a Beautiful French Girlfriend once, which sadly Life & Circumstances prevented us from marriage, but still friends today. I used to call her "My Cameleon" because she could speak 5 Languages Fluently and could switch to any of them at the drop of a hat. They were, French, German, English, Italian, and Spanish, in that order. Can't tell you how great that was going to go to a Restaurant with her and her talking to the Owners in his Lingo. Always got us the Best Table, and sometimes a free drink.

She was raised in France but close to the German Boarder in the "Alsace-Lorraine Area", which was part of Germany until the end of the first WW. Germany lost a lot of land after the first war, and thus wanted it back. So many German Speaking People were living their and still do. She learnt French, German, and English in school, which was normal for all French Kids their. So 3 Languages was compulsory for them. She picked up Italian by living their for a few years, and learnt Spanish as she always liked that language and wanted to learn it.

Most French People can speak at least some English, but don't like to. Don't like to in Canada either. Must be a French Pride thing? My G/F told me that Dirty French (meaning Slang or Uneducated French) is actually Canadian French. Or at least to the French Speaking People. In case you didn't know this, Montreal Canada is the second largest French Speaking city in the world, and behind Paris France only.

I was raised in Canada and can speak one language, but also know some Basic French. Forgot much more then I know now. English to for that matter. Most guys I met from America can only speak one language, English, and I have met plenty of them over the years. So really! Who are the ignorant ones when it comes to a second language? The French, or the Americans? . . .

[smileydude]

These scenarios are interesting to bemuse but unlike economic models where you input numbers and variables into formulas and get reliable causal relationship results human behavior is probably the most unpredictable of all things on earth.

On an economic basis I think with alot of farmland gone Thailand would be forced to evolve much like Malaysia into the technological realm. As for the missing Isaan population, I think they have both their pro's and cons but in the end the remaining geographical and cultural characteristics would probably still shape Thailand to the same degree as it is today less the laotian influence in cuisine, skin color and sincerity.

Edited February 15, 2014 by smileydude