What if Thailand gave all of Isaan/Laos to the French in the first place?

[simple1]

Reply to Simple 1

My husband was a British citizen but French background. He took the last boat out of Shanghai to get to England in 1940 (I think). It took - I believe - 3 months round the Cape.Because his MOTHER tongue was French (he was quite bilingual) they told him about some chap called De G....and that he had better go to be with him. He was 997 on the FFF. I actually met No 1 once. He had come down from Norway with his CO. The CO let his men have the honour of signing first. All in all they were only 2000 - the rest waited 3 years to see who was going to win the war before choosing their side.

True that many wanted repatriation to France, but does not detract to the overall contribution during WW11. It is estimated more than 230,000 Free French Forces were killed or wounded in action; hardly equates to sitting on their hands. By the end of the war were the fourth largest army in Europe with a million plus members.

Not that many died then, compared to Russian, German, British, Polish? See wikipedia.

Considering most of France was not liberated until 09/1944 to enable the general civilian population to join the military, not surprising is it; some areas of France were not freed from German occupation until 1945.

Edited February 15, 2014 by simple1

[swisstree]

French bashing again!!! Its getting a daily thing!

Why are there so much to talk about the french? Is it jealousy or what? I never heard the french bashing the english much, or the swedes or the finns etc....

Some of you call the french total ignorants?? And what are you to call them that?

I even read a post saying the french can only speak french!? ...well for sure i haveńt met many brits or americans speaking other language than their own.

Very sad to see that so many people are still so narrow minded even when living abroad.

[bunuel]

These historical hypotheticals can be entertaining, but require some historical plausibility to be truly provocative. The premise here is a bit far-fetched, unfortunately - as the posts would indicate, and the thread is in danger of disintegrating into a barrage of French bashing, which is a bit off-topic. Having lived and worked in a few former French colonies in Africa and the West Indies, I can only say the French legacy of fine gastronomy and romance should not be forgotten.

However, if one wants to discuss a more plausible historical hypothetical: what would have happened if the allies had occupied Thailand after World War Ii? I have heard the Brits wanted to, but the Americans over-ruled them. Does anyone know more abour this?

[krisb]

I don't get it.

Things would have been very different if Australia built a bridge over to Thailand.

Since your talking hypothetical crap.

Edited February 15, 2014 by krisb

[Thai at Heart]

Isaan is not the best place in the country to grow rice. Plenty of labour, no water.

I think all that has really happened is that a bunch of families in Bangkok made a boat load of money out of Isaan.

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

Vietnam is a different culture from the Tai family (Thailand, Cambodia, Laos), so I don't think they'll ever want to unify. They have more in common with the CJK, and there's a reason they tend to get lumped into that array.

How long is that historical separation been around? 500 years? 1000 years?

More than enough time for it to have become unified.

Your last sentence is not making any sense. Chinese characters (or Chu nom as they call it in Vietnamese) has only been phased out in favor of the Latin alphabet for less than 100 years (same with Hanja for Hangul in the Korean peninsula). Besides, have you ever tried Vietnamese cuisine? It's got a common taste bud with Cantonese (at least for me).

As a people I was considering.

[delh]

France would be a nice place to travel or even to live !!!

I have been in France, and I have to say you could not meet more ignorant people, I knew a Frenchman here for quite a long time, and along with two guys from Yorkshire, they were very unpopular among the other Farangs in the surrounding area. Now they are gone and there is no problem with anybody.

I can't help but wonder just how long you were in France? Having worked there, may I disagree?

I was in Paris for only three days, and it was enough. Just my experience, and what dreadful people the French guy and the two Yorkshire guys here in Thailand were. The French guy actually got put in hospital by a young Thai guy because of his dreadful attitude.

I have a French (Parisien) neighbour here in Samui. Almost the first words he said to me were 'You hate zee Parisiens yes?' so I do understand your point, so, it seems my neighbour does too. Rural France is a different France altogether. Lovely people in the main.

[andyg75]

French bashing again!!! Its getting a daily thing!

Why are there so much to talk about the french? Is it jealousy or what? I never heard the french bashing the english much, or the swedes or the finns etc....

Some of you call the french total ignorants?? And what are you to call them that?

I even read a post saying the french can only speak french!? ...well for sure i haveńt met many brits or americans speaking other language than their own.

Very sad to see that so many people are still so narrow minded even when living abroad.

I dont know why your having a go at the Brits,as far as I can see the Brit posters are siding with France.

Neversure is American and Possum always jumps in and has a snidey dig at the English at every chance he gets.

[ABCer]

Reply to Simple 1

My husband was a British citizen but French background. He took the last boat out of Shanghai to get to England in 1940 (I think). It took - I believe - 3 months round the Cape.Because his MOTHER tongue was French (he was quite bilingual) they told him about some chap called De G....and that he had better go to be with him. He was 997 on the FFF. I actually met No 1 once. He had come down from Norway with his CO. The CO let his men have the honour of signing first. All in all they were only 2000 - the rest waited 3 years to see who was going to win the war before choosing their side.

True that many wanted repatriation to France, but does not detract to the overall contribution during WW11. It is estimated more than 230,000 Free French Forces were killed or wounded in action; hardly equates to sitting on their hands. By the end of the war were the fourth largest army in Europe with a million plus members.

Gillyflower and simple1, my knowledge of French resistance, 'maquis'(?) and their readiness to fight is minimal. Just some general information comes to mind.

If we leave GB and USA aside because none of them were invaded by German troops we could compare the numbers of 230,000 and over 20,000,000 on FFF and Russians respectively.

Or we could compare 3 weeks with about 4 years of actual fighting for French and Russians respectively.

Bringing the discussion closer to OP it was Japanese construction works on Kwai in Thailand and they were German not French allies during WWII.

As to sitting on their hands or on some foreign knees for 3 years many (not all) French were busy collaborating with German effort cleansing Europe from unwanted elements.

But let's better not go into this.

Please, do not get me wrong. I am not having a go at French. Just feel annoyed by the uncalled for and unjustified posture of pride.

Gentlemen, remember that under the multicolored tail display of a peacock there is a prosaic chicken bum.

Edited February 15, 2014 by ABCer

[glegolo]

Posted Today, 03:46

I know we wouldn't have attained #1 rice exporter status, but would the country (at least in terms of HDI) have been much better off? Laos would've still had their country in one piece and Thailand wouldn't have much to deal with the rural poor. I'm aware the North make up the other half of the red shirt population, but they're still much better off than the Northeast and (pretty much) secretly hate them. After all, "Thai" derived from the Central's obsession with the North (Tai).

• Like This

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No big difference actually.... neither country cant speak english...... both countries loves their

froglegs and both countries think they are the only ones on this planet and no other opinions

doesn´t count......

Glegolo

[Kitsune]

In France and all its territories you can:

- If you have no income :Claim $50 a week from French government, get free medical insurance and your rent paid, and don't forget to pick your food/cigarets coupons !

-Get FREE decent schooling for your kids

-,pension, for the elders,

- minimal wage at 7euros /hour.

- Paid Holidays 5 weeks per year

There would be A LOT of Thai/Cambodians/Malasians/Burman trying to cross the border

Edited February 15, 2014 by Kitsune

[khunPer]

Reading “A History of Thailand” it seems like Isaan and the population originally moved to the empty plateau, where for the elite class to have cheap labour and willing soldiers – and of course growing rice to export (all the Chinese rice-millers settling in Bangkok a hundred years and more ago). Without Isaan Thailand may have been “same-same, but different”.

[90dayz]

In France and all its territories you can:

- If you have no income :Claim $50 a week from French government, get free medical insurance and your rent paid, and don't forget to pick your food/cigarets coupons !

-Get FREE decent schooling for your kids

-,pension, for the elders,

- minimal wage at 7euros /hour.

- Paid Holidays 5 weeks per year

There would be A LOT of Thai/Cambodians/Malasians/Burman trying to cross the border

What I meant by gave was to cede it to France as a colony (as part of French Indochina), not French Guiana type overseas department. You guys missed the point, lol.

[90dayz]

Posted Today, 03:46

I know we wouldn't have attained #1 rice exporter status, but would the country (at least in terms of HDI) have been much better off? Laos would've still had their country in one piece and Thailand wouldn't have much to deal with the rural poor. I'm aware the North make up the other half of the red shirt population, but they're still much better off than the Northeast and (pretty much) secretly hate them. After all, "Thai" derived from the Central's obsession with the North (Tai).

• Like This

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No big difference actually.... neither country cant speak english...... both countries loves their

froglegs and both countries think they are the only ones on this planet and no other opinions

doesn´t count......

Glegolo

I'm sure the Laotians are more self-conscious to the fact that they're the butt of jokes to their neighbours.

[GuyL]

Posted Today, 03:46

I know we wouldn't have attained #1 rice exporter status, but would the country (at least in terms of HDI) have been much better off? Laos would've still had their country in one piece and Thailand wouldn't have much to deal with the rural poor. I'm aware the North make up the other half of the red shirt population, but they're still much better off than the Northeast and (pretty much) secretly hate them. After all, "Thai" derived from the Central's obsession with the North (Tai).

• Like This

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No big difference actually.... neither country cant speak english...... both countries loves their

froglegs and both countries think they are the only ones on this planet and no other opinions

doesn´t count......

Glegolo

I'm sure the Laotians are more self-conscious to the fact that they're the butt of jokes to their neighbours.

How clever! Ok. So, now, there is little doubt that the sole purpose of this thread is to have a go at a specific nationality (French people here), which is against the forum rules, if I am not mistaken.

[swissie]

Isaan is not the best place in the country to grow rice. Plenty of labour, no water.

I think all that has really happened is that a bunch of families in Bangkok made a boat load of money out of Isaan.

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

Vietnam is a different culture from the Tai family (Thailand, Cambodia, Laos), so I don't think they'll ever want to unify. They have more in common with the CJK, and there's a reason they tend to get lumped into that array.

Thailand and Laos are the only ones that you mentioned there that are part of the "Tai" family. The Khmers are actually in the family of "Mon-Khmer" people, just as the Vietnamese people/language are classified.

As far as I know the major "Tai" groups are: The Lao, The Tai Yuan (LannaThai), The Dai of Yunnan, The Shan of Burma and finally the "Siamese" or Central Thai or "Thai Proper" the modern thai nation state was evolved on the domination of the Siamese. (the subjugation of the Lanna Kingdom in the 1700's and the subsequent subjugation of the Lao people in the the 1820's. While all these said groups are related linguistically and culturally, they do have their own differences. I find it kind of sad however that due to the "Thaiification" processes started by Chulongkorn, a "Tai Yuan" identity or "Lao" Identity have really been quashed in favor an all encompassing "Thai" culture. but its also a mixed bag, living in Isan I have heard many people tell me that they identify much more closely with their brethren across the river in Laos proper, than they do with their fellow country men in Bangkok

The Thaiifiication-Process started with the invention and introduction of Television (and it's daily soap operas). Thanks to this, even North-eastern Thais (main lingo Thai-Lao) and southern Isaan-Thais (main lingo Thai-Khmer), can now understand the "official language of the country", witch is "Bangkok-Thai'. Thank Buddha for Television.

Cheers.

[Kitsune]

In France and all its territories you can:

- If you have no income :Claim $50 a week from French government, get free medical insurance and your rent paid, and don't forget to pick your food/cigarets coupons !

-Get FREE decent schooling for your kids

-,pension, for the elders,

- minimal wage at 7euros /hour.

- Paid Holidays 5 weeks per year

There would be A LOT of Thai/Cambodians/Malasians/Burman trying to cross the border

What I meant by gave was to cede it to France as a colony (as part of French Indochina), not French Guiana type overseas department. You guys missed the point, lol.

What are you on about ?? It was a French colony and was given to France in 1902 by Siam Empire, and got its independence in 53

Edited February 15, 2014 by Kitsune

[Trembly]

Isaan is not the best place in the country to grow rice. Plenty of labour, no water.

I think all that has really happened is that a bunch of families in Bangkok made a boat load of money out of Isaan.

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

Humans never should have gone to live (and especially farm rice!) in Isaan in large numbers...and you know what? They DIDN'T.

The ancestors of the population of Isaan today were forcibly dragged there ("relocated") by the Thai army, first in 1782 and again (especially) in 1827, after wars with the Lao, with the reasoning that the Lao population would be easier to control if they were on land closer to and more easily administered by Bangkok. Never mind that the land was only barely, if at all, arable.

[swissie]

French bashing again!!! Its getting a daily thing!

Why are there so much to talk about the french? Is it jealousy or what? I never heard the french bashing the english much, or the swedes or the finns etc....

Some of you call the french total ignorants?? And what are you to call them that?

I even read a post saying the french can only speak french!? ...well for sure i haveńt met many brits or americans speaking other language than their own.

Very sad to see that so many people are still so narrow minded even when living abroad.

Swisstree, not to worry. The "French-Bashing" has basically run it's course. New target: Switzerland (Swissie)!

Given latest developments in Europe, including the fact that the Swiss-Electorate has decided that uncontrolled immigration is undesirable. At the current time, such a thing is politically "not correct" in Europe.

Hard to comprehend for the rest of the world: A midget-country in the middle of Europe, actively practicing democracy for the last 723 years, never involved in aggressive warfare.

The midget-country is still there, after 723 years, fundamentally unchanged.

Let the bashing begin.

The next country in Europe, that will discover that uncontrolled immigration is not desirable is probably the UK.

Cheers.

[Jip99]

I often wonder if Thailand, Cambodia, and Vietnam had become one unified (not in a communist group) group, what would the country be like.

er ? that's like uniting germany with spain... me thinks u don't understand the differences between thai, khmer and vietnamese...

I'm not sure about the differences but do they boil down to

Viets can fight anybody;

Khmers can fight only their own unarmed population;

Thais can fight nobody;

???????? Was it all?

Oh, yeasss, Thais don't eat dogs!

You have obviously never been to Sakon Nakhon

[90dayz]

In France and all its territories you can:

- If you have no income :Claim $50 a week from French government, get free medical insurance and your rent paid, and don't forget to pick your food/cigarets coupons !

-Get FREE decent schooling for your kids

-,pension, for the elders,

- minimal wage at 7euros /hour.

- Paid Holidays 5 weeks per year

There would be A LOT of Thai/Cambodians/Malasians/Burman trying to cross the border

What I meant by gave was to cede it to France as a colony (as part of French Indochina), not French Guiana type overseas department. You guys missed the point, lol.

What are you on about ?? It was a French colony and was given to France in 1902 by Siam Empire, and got its independence in 53

Again you've misread my reply. The whole thread is me asking what if Isaan was a French colony in addition to French Indochina. Basically present day Thailand further carved out, which would've halved Thailand's population.

[Kitsune]

In France and all its territories you can:

- If you have no income :Claim $50 a week from French government, get free medical insurance and your rent paid, and don't forget to pick your food/cigarets coupons !

-Get FREE decent schooling for your kids

-,pension, for the elders,

- minimal wage at 7euros /hour.

- Paid Holidays 5 weeks per year

There would be A LOT of Thai/Cambodians/Malasians/Burman trying to cross the border

What I meant by gave was to cede it to France as a colony (as part of French Indochina), not French Guiana type overseas department. You guys missed the point, lol.

What are you on about ?? It was a French colony and was given to France in 1902 by Siam Empire, and got its independence in 53

Again you've misread my reply. The whole thread is me asking what if Isaan was a French colony in addition to French Indochina. Basically present day Thailand further carved out, which would've halved Thailand's population.

But that's a rhetorical question: If it had been a colony like Laos it would have had 2 choices:

1/ Stay part of France and become fully French with all the perks like I described earlier

2/ Become independent and be a separate entity.

[herb59]

if so, then they had to import the bargirls.

[90dayz]

In France and all its territories you can:

- If you have no income :Claim $50 a week from French government, get free medical insurance and your rent paid, and don't forget to pick your food/cigarets coupons !

-Get FREE decent schooling for your kids

-,pension, for the elders,

- minimal wage at 7euros /hour.

- Paid Holidays 5 weeks per year

There would be A LOT of Thai/Cambodians/Malasians/Burman trying to cross the border

What I meant by gave was to cede it to France as a colony (as part of French Indochina), not French Guiana type overseas department. You guys missed the point, lol.

What are you on about ?? It was a French colony and was given to France in 1902 by Siam Empire, and got its independence in 53

Again you've misread my reply. The whole thread is me asking what if Isaan was a French colony in addition to French Indochina. Basically present day Thailand further carved out, which would've halved Thailand's population.

But that's a rhetorical question: If it had been a colony like Laos it would have had 2 choices:

1/ Stay part of France and become fully French with all the perks like I described earlier

2/ Become independent and be a separate entity.

Nope. If it had been a colony it would've remained a part of Laos. Isaan is a term assigned by the Thai bureau census to distinguish southern Mekong Laotians (non-commies) and northern Mekong Laotians (Laos proper).

[90dayz]

if so, then they had to import the bargirls.

Naw, I think Laos would've kept the extra source of income.

[ultimate weapon]

france????

Half of france went with the germans in 40-45 .

Following the defeat in June 1940, President Albert Lebrun appointed Marshal Pétain as premier.

Marshal Pétain " collaborated" with the German occupying forces in exchange for an agreement not to divide France between the Axis powers(Germany,Italyand Japan)

It would have been a good idea to devide France between germany and Italy,because the population would have spoken now at least 2 languages ! Now the poor french

have to go on holliday in theier ex-colonies to make themselves understandable OR learn english or spanish or portugese ...........

Am i right or not ?

aux armes citoyens !

alt=coffee1.gif>

Well, actually you are not right or even close to being right!

Had a Beautiful French Girlfriend once, which sadly Life & Circumstances prevented us from marriage, but still friends today. I used to call her "My Cameleon" because she could speak 5 Languages Fluently and could switch to any of them at the drop of a hat. They were, French, German, English, Italian, and Spanish, in that order. Can't tell you how great that was going to go to a Restaurant with her and her talking to the Owners in his Lingo. Always got us the Best Table, and sometimes a free drink.

.

ROFL at speaking 5 langhuages and all of them are european languages. If you used the thai equavilent it would be like speaking thai, lao, issan thai, cambodian etc. French, italian and spanish are mostly the same and german and english are the same. You;re lucky that these languages are all sovereign countries and not a single country which is the case for many other countries. In fact i am willing to bet the issan thai spoke is more different to standard thai compared to italian and spanish but an issan person who can speak standard and issan thai gets zero props but someone that speaks both these languages gets praised to the skies.

[Kitsune]

But that's a rhetorical question: If it had been a colony like Laos it would have had 2 choices:

1/ Stay part of France and become fully French with all the perks like I described earlier

2/ Become independent and be a separate entity.

Nope. If it had been a colony it would've remained a part of Laos. Isaan is a term assigned by the Thai bureau census to distinguish southern Mekong Laotians (non-commies) and northern Mekong Laotians (Laos proper).

Why would had it been necessarily a part of Laos ?

And more importantly what does it matter or has any relevance today anyway?

[louse1953]

The Laos and Isaan people would live in a french speaking country split in half by the Mekong. The culture would be with a French flavour and the roads would be frequently blocked by disgruntled farmers.

Similiar to what it is today then.

[90dayz]

But that's a rhetorical question: If it had been a colony like Laos it would have had 2 choices:

1/ Stay part of France and become fully French with all the perks like I described earlier

2/ Become independent and be a separate entity.

Nope. If it had been a colony it would've remained a part of Laos. Isaan is a term assigned by the Thai bureau census to distinguish southern Mekong Laotians (non-commies) and northern Mekong Laotians (Laos proper).

Why would had it been necessarily a part of Laos ?

And more importantly what does it matter or has any relevance today anyway?

Again, you're not reading a damn thing before replying. Isaan was always a part of Laos, merely split off due to colonialism and later communism. And it would definitely have relevance since they make the other half of the red shirt population (aka rural people). Someone here clarified that land in Isaan isn't really arable for harvesting rice and crops. I think I'm pretty much done here.

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post.

[MrHammer]

The french have made their mark on Indo-China more than brits probably like to acknowledge. Vientienne, Pnom Penh and in particularly Saigon/HCM are architectually on another level than any Thai city. Long wide boulevards, proper city planning, fantastic parks with tall old trees. Baguettes and real coffee. Saigon center is like a small version of asian Paris, infinitely more pleasent and aestically pleasing than the generic and ugly modern Thai architecture. Saigon was for a time the capital of Indo-China and with good reason.

As always, the socialists and communists in Laos, Cambodja and Vietnam managed to set the countries back to stone age agrarian society, but the infastructure left by the french will allow these countries to blow by Thailand as their wealth grows. After all, when it comes to quality of life, it is not only about being bombarded with commercials everywhere (as is the case in Thailand), but also about having access to a nice cooling park with old trees, nice architecture and gastronomy that is above sugar and chili.

The reason that Laos, Cambodja and Vietnam is behind is due to marxism and socialism, just like Cuba and as always, the marxists managed to get support for their case by disguising themselves as nationalists who would drive the foreigners out.

It's a damn shame, but to conclude on the question, I believe Isaan would have been much, much better off if the french had been there and lifted them into the modern age. Unfortunately, the Isaanites now seem to fall under sway of semi-socialist populists like Taksin.