Racism or Am I Just too Sensitive.

[GOLDBUGGY]

First off, I am White, not racist at all, and also born and raised in Canada. Racism certainly exist in this world and in some places at a much greater extent than in Thailand. I have worked in many countries in the world and have seen this many times. If I talk to a Nigerian in Nigeria, pretty well anywhere I go, I am always answered with the words "Yes Boss" "No Boss" no matter who they are or where they work. So in Nigeria White Skin means you are to be respected, a Boss, and Finish!

I don't think your problems here are related to you, even your skin color, or where you were born and raised. Having wealth has nothing to do with this either. It has much more to do with the Indians that come here from India, who must be quite wealthy to do that, but who sadly give you a bad name here. They really have a bad reputation here from Bar Girls, to Waitresses, to Hotel Managers and Clerks, and unfortunately for you, in many cases it is well deserved.

It is sad for me to hear you have to take the brunt of that here. But it is what it is and you really can't change that. There is no law or place here you can log a complaint against racism. They may listen, but in the end they would just tell you that if you don't like it you should go home. So ignore it if you can. If you can't best not to come here or work here, and go to Europe or India instead. Where I think this is not as much of a problem. Just so you know, I worked in India for 2 years and thus know their culture a little bit. But I thought it was okay their and better than most of my past jobs.

[HardenedSoul]

we westerners are considered racist but we take the whole f***** world into our countries people with no skills and pay them social security and a council house.

Yes after we bowled into 25% of the known world, built the British Empire and simply stole other people's wealth.

Payback's a bitch, ain't it?

[GrantSmith]

we westerners are considered racist but we take the whole f***** world into our countries people with no skills and pay them social security and a council house.

Yes after we bowled into 25% of the known world, built the British Empire and simply stole other people's wealth.

Payback's a bitch, ain't it?

Or just a vicious cycle?

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[wym]

Well if you actually care to notice you always hear ppl stereotyping all chinese negatively

you do keep going on about this, but I personally just don't hear it much

And the only complaints are about the fact that they travel in large groups and seem to want to spend their money at the local supermarkets rather than travel industry properties, take the "all inclusive" malarkey too seriously.

I hear much more frequent and serious complaints about how "khaek" tourist behave, and Russians as well, than I do about Chinese.

Maybe just because they're relatively new - next it will be the Brazilians. . .

[RubberBroke]

It has much more to do with the Indians that come here from India, who must be quite wealthy to do that, but who sadly give you a bad name here. They really have a bad reputation here from Bar Girls, to Waitresses, to Hotel Managers and Clerks, and unfortunately for you, in many cases it is well deserved.

The Indians who come here are not quite wealthy, they are people who have modest means and benefit from a currency conversion of only 2:1 as well as some of the nouveau rich. Most of the wealthy Indians are heading off to Europe, the U.K. and the States. Most of the demographic who come here tend to behave like they do back home as they don't know better or they just think that by visiting abroad they are somewhat superior and don't care, and so have earned their reputation.

Sadly stereotypes are more common and hence all are painted with the same brush. I try to avoid the "specimens" as much as I can.

[GrantSmith]

Well if you actually care to notice you always hear ppl stereotyping all chinese negatively

you do keep going on about this, but I personally just don't hear it much

And the only complaints are about the fact that they travel in large groups and seem to want to spend their money at the local supermarkets rather than travel industry properties, take the "all inclusive" malarkey too seriously.

I hear much more frequent and serious complaints about how "khaek" tourist behave, and Russians as well, than I do about Chinese.

Maybe just because they're relatively new - next it will be the Brazilians. . .

Is there an Indian mafia?

Could explain a few things...

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[wym]

Definitely in the jewelry business, not sure to what extent in tailoring. AFAIK not necessarily systematically violent though, more like trying scam technology, fixing prices.

Nothing to do with those that come here as tourists though, what did you mean?

[GrantSmith]

Definitely in the jewelry business, not sure to what extent in tailoring. AFAIK not necessarily systematically violent though, more like trying scam technology, fixing prices.

Nothing to do with those that come here as tourists though, what did you mean?

Well... If they're of a similar ilk of their Chinese and Russian brethren, it could explain a thing or two, no?

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[wym]

I think the behaviours people complain about between these three groups as tourists don't have much in common, so I have no idea what you'd be talking about.

Every country and culture has its mafias.

Easy enough to use that word to describe those that run each country behind the scenes.

Those in the western world are perhaps a bit more careful to cover their tracks.

[sam sen]

You cry racism yet refer to others as farangs. tut tut.

farang means foreigner in thai... how is referring to someone as a foreigner being racist?

[wym]

You cry racism yet refer to others as farangs. tut tut.

farang means foreigner in thai... how is referring to someone as a foreigner being racist?

OMG I can't believe someone didn't get the memo.

It doesn't mean foreigner at all, it means white person of European descent, as in Caucasian.

Which is a term that refers to "race" which actually doesn't exist objectively.

But isn't racist, that is, in itself derogatory.

Please go find the thread that discussed this ad nauseum very recently.

Edit - here you go:

Yes I REALLY think we should have the whole "farang" discussion again.

But let's continue it here where it belongs, certainly nothing to do with racism:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/697759-what-does-being-called-a-farang-mean-to-you-good-or-bad/?p=7314848

Edited February 21, 2014 by wym

[GrantSmith]

I think the behaviours people complain about between these three groups as tourists don't have much in common, so I have no idea what you'd be talking about.

Every country and culture has its mafias.

Easy enough to use that word to describe those that run each country behind the scenes.

Those in the western world are perhaps a bit more careful to cover their tracks.

Well.. The Eastern European mafias aren't known for their subtle messages are they...

Traditional mafias - Italian and therefore Americans - are a little bit more "careful" in the way they carry themselves.

OMG did I just tar peoples with the same brush? Does that make me a racist?

Oh dear...

For shame..

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[wym]

Definitely in the jewelry business, not sure to what extent in tailoring. AFAIK not necessarily systematically violent though, more like trying scam technology, fixing prices.

Nothing to do with those that come here as tourists though, what did you mean?

Well... If they're of a similar ilk of their Chinese and Russian brethren, it could explain a thing or two, no?

Third time asking now, still waiting for an explanation of what you meant by this?

[GrantSmith]

Definitely in the jewelry business, not sure to what extent in tailoring. AFAIK not necessarily systematically violent though, more like trying scam technology, fixing prices.

Nothing to do with those that come here as tourists though, what did you mean?

Well... If they're of a similar ilk of their Chinese and Russian brethren, it could explain a thing or two, no?

Third time asking now, still waiting for an explanation of what you meant by this?

Something along the lines of not caring about how they're perceived, they've got money, can spend it however they like on whatever they like... tangible assets or otherwise...

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[wym]

No the Indian tourists causing/reinforcing the negative stereotypes are NOT at all wealthy except compared to "most Indians" back home which of course are very poor.

It's very common for them to try to save money by putting many per hotel room and many per session with the girls, assume that absolutely everything is open for bargaining in completely inappropriate circumstances.

I think their total lack of caring what people think of them isn't arrogance so much as ignorance, just being new to the outside world, combined with the fact that they're soon on their way home just don't give a stuff what outsiders think compared to saving a few rupees.

Above of course gross over-generalization, I'm sure offensive to most, but not based on their RACE but their geographical and cultural and economic background.

Absolutely nothing to do with someone of subcontinental ethnic background who grew up in Montreal for example.

Racism ("lite" IMO) is when the latter is treated badly because of the hospitality industry staff has had so many bad experiences with the former. But that's reality I'm afraid.

[aveabeeror2]

Your rambling wym.

[mandee]

Saw well dressed Indian and son maybe 6-7 yo near Nana Plaza.

Father was coaching the boy how to bargain with a squatting vendor over a stick of pineapple pieces.

It was some time ago and i think the price was 5 baht

I watched with a mixture of amusement and pity, then approached the boy and said," I will buy it for you", and proffered 5 baht.

The father rushed in."No No NO, he has to learn"..NUff said.

[oiboy]

Sketchy internet in ATH.

Edited February 21, 2014 by oiboy

[oiboy]

In Athens now after spending a day in Rome. Experienced none of the issues I faced in Thailand here, though I'm aware of the golden dawn group here. Guess when economic times are tough people look for a scapegoat. Had a very interesting conversation on my ride to BKK from Pattaya with my colleague for a week at Bangkok Hospital. He was like "your very different then most Indians here." I asked him how so. He said Indians here are very rude and dirty dark people. This is a doctor I was speaking to and not a doorman, hostess or waiter. I explained to him most tourists Thailand gets from India among other countries are usually the LCD (lowest common denominator) Either the first time tourist, or sex tourists. I explained to him that I may think twice before excepting a role in any other projects set forth due to the way I was treated. It's a shame as I actually like Thailand's natural beauty and food. I told him I wish people treated me the way I treated them. India is a huge country made up of many many different cultural groups languages and religions. What Canada, Thailand, and just about any other country sees are a small portion of people. For me I really have very little in common with the average Bangladeshi or Indian coming to Thailand on a holiday. I don't dance Bhangra watch Bollywood movies or really eat much Indian food. Does that make me less Indian? Not really. I would rather eat Chinese food listen to NIN and watch low budget indie films..It's all about being a individual and not generalizing people. The last few lines of my OP was poking fun at stereotypes of different races. I'm not at all PC and will make jokes about even my race, but when it moves from harmless fun to venom it p*sses me off. I will say if I acted I appropriately in the situations I mentioned in my original post I would understand if I was treated badly. I was polite respectful, more than patient and soft spoken. Maybe I should have been like the Indians they are "used to". And about the colour of my skin, I'm pretty white as I cannot handle too much sun as I burn in minutes, so I don't think it was based on colour as much as race.

I'm still trying to figure out how the farang thing is offensive. Doesn't it just pretty much mean white? If so then labelling yourself as white would also be offensive wouldn't it? White is a generalization as people who have fair skin can be from many countries. And some in Asia. Have seen many people who are Chinese and are pretty fair skinned too, some are actually whiter than Caucasian people.

[wym]

I'm still trying to figure out how the farang thing is offensive. Doesn't it just pretty much mean white? If so then labeling yourself as white would also be offensive wouldn't it? White is a generalization as people who have fair skin can be from many countries. And some in Asia. Have seen many people who are Chinese and are pretty fair skinned too, some are actually whiter than Caucasian people.

It isn't offensive at all, just some hyper-sensitive ones (and probably racist themselves) choose to interpret as if it were.

It can of course be used in a derogatory way just like Occupy use "the 1%" or religious fundamentalist might use "prostitute", easy to spot from the context, tone, facial expressions.

But just like the term Caucasian, it's just a neutral indicator of race. BTW "white" is usually in English a synonym for Caucasian, one would say "light-skinned Asian" if you were purely talking about skin color for some reason.

And race itself of course doesn't exist from an objective scientific POV, just an arbitrary socially created classification, the human mind needs pigeonholes for things.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Tywais
Non English language removed

[wym]

Whoops sorry, crossed wires there, thought you were Costas, sorry for the Greek (good morning, and Yankee)

Edited February 22, 2014 by wym

[ford8]

quote "LCD (lowest common denominator)"

I find it arrogant that you think we are so dumb you need to spell out a common acronym, in the context you use, to forestall you

doing a google search.

BTW (By The Way)..You might like to see Border Securiy, Canada series, most of the people trying to bypass declaring items, generally the most

weird foods, are Indians, who then throw a wobbler when asked to pay a trivial fine, even when their stuff is not confiscated.

Are they also LCD Indians, having paid the airfare frequently back and forth to India ?

Edited February 22, 2014 by ford8

[ford8]

quote "I explained to him that I may think twice before excepting a role in any other projects set forth due to the way I was treated."

You could always except roles/invest in India, but probably won't.

[oiboy]

ford8 said:

I find it arrogant that you think we are so dumb you need to spell out a common acronym, in the context you use, to forestall you

doing a google search.

Reply:

I know this is feeding a douche troll but....how exactly is that arrogant?

ford8 said:

BTW (By The Way)..You might like to see Border Securiy, Canada series, most of the people trying to bypass declaring items, generally the most[/font][/color]

weird foods, are Indians, who then throw a wobbler when asked to pay a trivial fine, even when their stuff is not confiscated.

Reply:

Weird food is subjective. It shows how much of an immature bigot you are. Just because I don't eat something does not make it weird for someone else. In fact indians are not really known to eat what is considered by western ideals really weird. There are exemptions to this but it's not really the case. In my travels I've seen some pretty unusual foods in my eyes: guinea pig in Peru, fried bugs in Thailand and Mexico, boiled ant eggs in Laos, dog hotpot in China, rotting fish in Norway, cheese with maggots in Italy (Casu Marzu) fried whole baby birds in France, Vegemite and beetroot burgers in Australia, jellied eels haggis and stargazy pie in the UK to name a few of the local delicacies that would in your eyes be considered "weird". Your lack of understanding and ability to label indigenous food as weird makes it clear that you are a bigot.

Yes, I have watched that show. Smuggling as it appears on the show is not inherent to indians. I think I've seen a Indian on that show smuggling 3 times. Along with many Chinese, a few Eastern Europeans, drug smugglers from every which way. Pedophiles, people from the Just about every western country trying to invade my country and work illegally, people with felonies trying to enter Canada.

ford8 said:

Are they also LCD Indians, having paid the airfare frequently back and forth to India ?[/color]

Reply:

I do not understand what you mean? I know being Indian and all my English language ability may not be up there with yours. Can you please elaborate?

Edited February 22, 2014 by oiboy

[oiboy]

quote "I explained to him that I may think twice before excepting a role in any other projects set forth due to the way I was treated."

You could always except roles/invest in India, but probably won't.

I could except roles anywhere. I don't know where you conjured up in your brain I invested anywhere as I never have. I have spent several months in rural. India right after my residency. What nationality are you ford8?

[oiboy]

we westerners are considered racist but we take the whole f***** world into our countries people with no skills and pay them social security and a council house.

Yes after we bowled into 25% of the known world, built the British Empire and simply stole other people's wealth.

Payback's a bitch, ain't it?

The whole notion of most immigrants are the ones sitting on social security and welfare is a crock of sh*t really. If you look at statistics the majority of welfare recipients in Canada at least are citizens. In fact without citizenship one cannot get welfare. I know this as when I sponsored my Chinese wife I had to sign a legal undertaking to financially support her for 10 years. I actually see a lot of immigrants willing to take the low paying jobs most citizens will not take. Have a look at food courts, nannies, housekeeping at hospitals, delivery drivers, convenience store clerks. Most immigrants I know are generally hard working not like some citizens I see sitting around collecting a welfare check and are a burden on our social system with drug and alcohol abuse, crime and the social ills that come with that. I for one would like to see welfare being completely eliminated in Canada. I want my tax dollars going into education and programs for the elderly. In Vancouver many of the people who live in flop-houses on the lower east side lobbied that the government provide them newly social housing there, while hard working middle class people can only dream of affording housing in the city and face a 1 hour plus commute to work from their suburban locals. Edited February 22, 2014 by oiboy

[oiboy]

Well written op. Thailand is a racist and xenophobic culture, there is no getting around it. You mentioned the pecking order in Thailand and unfortunately for you, Indian tourists tend to be placed at the bottom of this order.

I'll echo what others have said above and give you credit for keeping a cool head.

DO you feel that indian tourists are below due to their own behavior or just simply due to thai biasness?

Let's change it to chinese tourists. Now we see a 180 degree change. It's suddenly justified to treat chinese tourists badly and ignore the bad behavior of tourists of other nationalities.

I suspect that the Thai attitude is a bit of both. I certainly would not claim to know the Thai mind intimately nor have I taken a survey so of course we are speaking in generalities here. My point of view is formed of my own observations and comments made to me by Thai's while living in Thailand.

Not sure what your point is about the Chinese and don't know who thinks it is justified to treat Chinese tourists badly. India, China and Russia all have a new booming middle class who suddenly find themselves with the means to take a holiday overseas. These same people it might be said have yet to learn the etiquette of behaviour when travelling overseas. I see plenty of comments on this fourm disparaging tourists from all nations and so would not agree that the Chinese are being singled out.

Well if you actually care to notice you always hear ppl stereotyping all chinese negatively and it affects non china ppl of chinese descent but you don't see them starting threads like this.

You will hear comments like more chinese are coming to chiang mai = a bad thing cos you know somehow the presence of chinese ppl themselves is a bad thing but you won't hear it about ppl from other nationalities.

I also observed that ppl tolerate the bad behavior of indians more compared to chinese. Like this thread. Someone will come in oh there are many rich indians you know you see how superior they are and curse the thais. Many rich chinese and most hi so thais are chinese or have chinese ancestry nope you don't see the same reaction but it's more like so what it's ok to be racist to chinese.

I have lived in China for several years and found that at times I was really annoyed at the cultural differences. Stuff like not lining up, horking up phlegm everywhere, taking at the top of ones lungs to the person sitting next to them, lack of care about the environment to name a few. My spouse and I recently went back to China for a holiday and even she was getting angry about the this stuff too. I remember when my in-laws came to visit they were not even willing to eat anything other than Chinese food.

[oiboy]

Thank you all for your input. I think this conversation has run its course. I hope what we can all take from this is judge people as individuals and not based on stereotypes, or generalizations made about their race.

Ciao

[wilcopops]

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

• prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

  None of this has any solid scientific basis. hover it is quite hard to be racist if you are of an ethnic or religious group that is typically stereotyped by the dominant group - White caucasians.

  A characteristic of racists is they like to accuse people who are normally discriminated against of discriminating against their discriminators. Statements like "Well THEY"RE racist too" and questions ljke "is it racist?" - are not in themselves racist but they ARE the sort of things that racisits say.

  PS - They also like to use the word "culture" a lot as it has little or no real meaning but allows them to voice racist opinions under a veil of political correctness

Edited February 22, 2014 by wilcopops

[ultimate weapon]

In Athens now after spending a day in Rome. Experienced none of the issues I faced in Thailand here, though I'm aware of the golden dawn group here. Guess when economic times are tough people look for a scapegoat. Had a very interesting conversation on my ride to BKK from Pattaya with my colleague for a week at Bangkok Hospital. He was like "your very different then most Indians here." I asked him how so. He said Indians here are very rude and dirty dark people. This is a doctor I was speaking to and not a doorman, hostess or waiter. I explained to him most tourists Thailand gets from India among other countries are usually the LCD (lowest common denominator) Either the first time tourist, or sex tourists. I explained to him that I may think twice before excepting a role in any other projects set forth due to the way I was treated. It's a shame as I actually like Thailand's natural beauty and food. I told him I wish people treated me the way I treated them. India is a huge country made up of many many different cultural groups languages and religions. What Canada, Thailand, and just about any other country sees are a small portion of people. For me I really have very little in common with the average Bangladeshi or Indian coming to Thailand on a holiday. I don't dance Bhangra watch Bollywood movies or really eat much Indian food. Does that make me less Indian? Not really. I would rather eat Chinese food listen to NIN and watch low budget indie films..It's all about being a individual and not generalizing people. The last few lines of my OP was poking fun at stereotypes of different races. I'm not at all PC and will make jokes about even my race, but when it moves from harmless fun to venom it p*sses me off. I will say if I acted I appropriately in the situations I mentioned in my original post I would understand if I was treated badly. I was polite respectful, more than patient and soft spoken. Maybe I should have been like the Indians they are "used to". And about the colour of my skin, I'm pretty white as I cannot handle too much sun as I burn in minutes, so I don't think it was based on colour as much as race.

I'm still trying to figure out how the farang thing is offensive. Doesn't it just pretty much mean white? If so then labelling yourself as white would also be offensive wouldn't it? White is a generalization as people who have fair skin can be from many countries. And some in Asia. Have seen many people who are Chinese and are pretty fair skinned too, some are actually whiter than Caucasian people.

Oh look whine whine whine. Hey you're actually stating the obvious. Not all of us are the same. We all stereotype. Thai ppl have it bad in this forum and overseas. How would you like to be thai and thought of as some lazy good for nothing that only dares fight in packs or that your sister, mum etc are whores/hookers because that is how some ppl view all thais.

Of course a thai person would be surprised when he met the likes of you who wasn't even born in india. What do you think an american born chinese would feel like if he was grouped together with say ppl from china.

Ok yes your last paragraph in post #1 was just a joke let's just get it over with.

Did you read my post to you where i went through it point for point. You are just being overly sensitive. You dislike someone calling you an indian which is what khek means so how should a thai person refer to you? Also do you think it is offensive to call a japanese person nippon a chinese chin?

Your other situations didn't actually show it was your race that made you discriminated. Like the old farang and the young thai girl being served ahead of you. A young farang would probably have been discriminated too.

Try speaking some thai it actually helps.

Don't whine too much. What do you think about russian americans, overseas chinese, polite farangs who might get mistaken for the rowdy russians, chinese, farangs? What do you think about the decent thai ladies and guys that are going to be stereotyped as whores or lazy layabouts?

One last thing i always noticed when it comes to whining about small racist incidents more often than not they tend to be indians like you just won't see chinese people starting such threads.