Racism or Am I Just too Sensitive.

[oiboy]

I apologize if this sounds like a rant, as this post kinda is.

Let me preface this post by saying I'm Canadian of Indian nationality. I was born and grew up in Canada. I have been to Thailand many times in the past few years for work as well as for pleasure. I would consider myself well travelled and have been to every continent with the exception of Antarctica. I have lived in China for 3 years working in Shanghai and in Hunan. I'm not naive to racism or differential treatment, though I really will not tolerate it and call it out if I experience it. On this last trip I felt as if I was treated like a second class citizen. I do speak basic conversational thai as it's necessary for my position at work.

There were several issues I faced:

While I was in Bangkok I decided to go for dinner at the Marriott Cafe in Bangkok. I went there and the hostess at the front desk asked me if I was staying there. (Which I wasn't, I stayed at the Four Seasons) then she told me the price, and what I found weird was asked me how I would be paying. When I sat my waitress was nowhere to be seen. Not for drinks, cutlery not at all. I did see her fawning over another table near mine but could not get her attention. She was rather prompt to plop the bill down on my table sans eye contact. I did ask for coffee at that point. She was begrudgingly served. I paid the bill via card and did tip decently above and beyond the included service charge. When I was leaving the front desk host actually yelled across to the waitress in Thai "did he pay?" I felt a bit embarrassed as other people probably heard what she said. I was going to make an issue of her behaviour at that point, but had other stuff to attend to and really did not want to waste my energy with that.

In another incident I was waiting in line at a restaurant near the Sofitel in Bangkok. The server went right to the older white guy right behind me who was with his young "girlfriend". I did speak up but was ignored by staff at first. Though the British guy did tell me I should learn the "pecking order in Thailand" I would liked to have shown him the pecking order of my fist but decided that was not in my best interest at the time. The hostess did come back saying sorry but I said your loss and went to a different spot a few doors down.

In Pattaya at my hotel I requested late check out at my hotel. Being a top status tier member of their program late check out is one of the benefits. When I checked at the front desk was advised the hotel was full. Sorry. The lady happened to use a certain term for Indian in Thai which I find pretty offensive when speaking with her manager. I went online and saw 6 room types available. I emailed my concierge at my program and cc d the GM and GSM. I got a call 5 minutes later from the GSM and advised it was a misunderstanding. He said my room type was not available tomorrow and he called the guest who was supposed to stay there and they agreed to switch rooms. This is actually a crock of BS as corner rooms are not a room type booked online. It's just standard and deluxe and suites. I did inquire with him why I was been referred by the front desk ladies as khon kheak. He said she probably didn't know you spoke Thai. I explained that is irrelevant and somewhat offensive. I explained that my race had no bearing on my displeasure. He said he will address this in training.

Went to a rock bar on Walking Street solo. Was odd as soon I was joined by a Motley crew of a Brit, a Russian, and a Australian. (Cue a bar joke) . Band was playing requests so I went and threw down 20 baht in their tip box and requested a Radiohead song. The guitarist said no sorry we don't know that. Fair enough. Then the Brit requested the same song and they played it. Weird.

I'm trying to figure out the social eccentricities of Thai culture. I've always been pretty respectful, tip well, not loud, and smile. Yet I feel I'm met with an almost venomous response. I by no means wish to generalize either as there have been some people that have been kind and helpful. Like last night when I got lost. I think maybe it's loss of face? Maybe certain Thais feel being called out by an "Indian" is a great loss of face compared to a farang? I would think it would be better for those involved to judge people as individuals and how they treat you. Perhaps Thai's are more tolerant with poor behaviour of farangs? I enjoyed a relaxing massage while a few stalls over a nice Australian woman who was is patts visiting her father in law was getting a massage. It was nice hearing her full life story while getting my niche massage. Or the British guy who puked all over a fruit vendors mangos. Or all the Russians who are so so friendly and understand what a line up is. Or the Chinese who include everyone on the bus in their conversation and make beautiful throat sounds when clearing out phlegm. (I kid I kid)

[WaywardWind]

I find the conduct you describe as simply outrageous and am pleased that you make it your practice to call it out when it happens.

Very few would have the patience that you have demonstrated.

Sometimes I have to wonder which century we are really lining in...

[jimmybcool]

I thought this thread was going to be a whine about minor shit from some naive westerner not used to travel. But what you describe is total BS. You have a lot more patience than I do. Good on you for not losing the plot.

[sustento]

[LennyW]

You cry racism yet refer to others as farangs. tut tut.

[OMGImInPattaya]

Like what's wrong with checking if someone has paid their check? In a large busy hotel restaurant, I'm sure they get the occasional walkout and your meal would likely add up to a whole days pay for whoever was responsible for the loss. So yeah, the hostess needs to check that you paid, especially as you weren't staying at the hotel. Also, no need to try to cover your apparent racial insecurity by over tipping either When the service charge is included.

As to the bar story, I'm fairly sure it never happened, based on my own experiences in pattaya. What would be the point...and if it did, did you take your tip back?

Edited February 20, 2014 by OMGImInPattaya

[canman]

Well written op. Thailand is a racist and xenophobic culture, there is no getting around it. You mentioned the pecking order in Thailand and unfortunately for you, Indian tourists tend to be placed at the bottom of this order.

I'll echo what others have said above and give you credit for keeping a cool head.

[oiboy]

Let me see if I can address your comments

Like what's wrong with checking if someone has paid their check? In a large busy hotel restaurant, I'm sure they get the occasional walkout and your meal would likely add up to a whole days pay for whoever was responsible for the loss. So yeah, the hostess needs to check that you paid, especially as you weren't staying at the hotel.

I fully understand they need to cover walk outs. When eating at finer larger establishments one expects a certain level of decorum. They do have systems in place. I really find it ludicrous you would condone yelling across a restaurant as normal behaviour. I for one have not seen it at any other 5 star hotel I've eaten in.

As for mentioning I tipped. It has nothing to do with any insecurity. It was simply stated as the icing on the cake was that even after tipping I felt the hostess at the front desk acted inappropriately. Many people eat at hotels around the city of Bangkok. I for one go occasionally for Sunday brunch at hotels. Not that strange.

As for you not believing me or not I could care less. Form your own opinion. I did not take money back. To be honest I would feel sheepish doing that. As I said it felt as unbelievable to me as it does to you. I'm not used to being treated this way in Canada. That's why it irks me and rubs me the wrong way.

[oiboy]

You cry racism yet refer to others as farangs. tut tut.

Farang has no racist connotation to me. If I have offended you I apologize. In china all foreigners epi non Chinese are referred to as Lowai.

[Spalpeen]

By 'Indian nationality' I assume you mean Indian descent. How did you manage to learn Thai without noticing that the Thais despise Indians? And it's not just Indians. Khaek also includes Arabs and Persians, so you're not alone. Have a guess what they call African Americans. It's just what Asia is like. If you want to see real racism try going to India and tell them you're a Dalit.

So yes, you're being way too sensitive. You're basically an educated rich westerner, so who cares what a bunch of low paid Thai restaurant workers think. Shuffle through a roll of thousand baht notes in front of them and then leave a ten baht tip.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Spalpeen

[oiboy]

Splalpeen

Yes I mean I'm of Indian decent.

I really don't care what the low or high paid restaurant workers think. Not that their socio-economic standing bears any relevance to this topic. What I do care is when it negatively impacts me. I care less if someone is a closet racist. Racism is everywhere in the world. Will I condone it and accept it, no. I'm not trying to change anyone's thinking but when dealing with me I expect to be treated with the same respect I show others. I am not disputing there is racism all over Asia. I guess my feelings is I've never experienced it as much in my face as here. I have actually also experienced racism in India. Not to generalize but many Indians feel subservient to Caucasian people. Perhaps something to do with colonization?

[OMGImInPattaya]

By 'Indian nationality' I assume you mean Indian descent. How did you manage to learn Thai without noticing that the Thais despise Indians? And it's not just Indians. Khaek also includes Arabs and Persians, so you're not alone. Have a guess what they call African Americans. It's just what Asia is like. If you want to see real racism try going to India and tell them you're a Dalit.

So yes, you're being way too sensitive. You're basically an educated rich westerner, so who cares what a bunch of low paid Thai restaurant workers think. Shuffle through a roll of thousand baht notes in front of them and then leave a ten baht tip.

These is lots of discrimination in India but it's based on class and not so much race. Assuming this is not a troll post, I too think the op is a little on the sensitive side. Maybe he should instead stay/eat at one of the many Indian owned hotels and see if it's better.

[oiboy]

I didn't really come to Thailand to eat Indian food. In fact I'm not a huge fan of Indian food with the exception on South Indian food. Perhaps I'm sensitive. I guess it's due to the fact that I haven't been exposed to overt displays of racism in my life. Perhaps I'm lucky for that. I wonder how you would feel if the the shoe was on the other foot?

[Spalpeen]

Racism is always a sign of insecurity. People who feel the need to look down on others are always insecure about their own status. What I find hilarious about Thai attitudes to Indians is that what passes for Thai culture is at least 90% derived from India. The Thais just don't realise that they are basically an Indian sub-culture.

[oiboy]

Maybe he should instead stay/eat at one of the many Indian owned hotels and see if it's better.

Your post kinda reminds me of this YouTube video.

I actually like. Thai food and eating at hotel buffets. Why should I ostracize myself because of other peoples behaviour?

Edited February 20, 2014 by oiboy

[OMGImInPattaya]

I didn't really come to Thailand to eat Indian food. In fact I'm not a huge fan of Indian food with the exception on South Indian food. Perhaps I'm sensitive. I guess it's due to the fact that I haven't been exposed to overt displays of racism in my life. Perhaps I'm lucky for that. I wonder how you would feel if the the shoe was on the other foot?

Yes, people in the West lead pretty sheltered lives. Welcome to how the other 90% of the planet lives. Also, I wasn't suggesting you eat in Indian restaurants, these hotels have a variety of food outlets at their hotels.

[Pattaya28]

In this world, including Thailand, there's always a "pecking order".

Rich get priority over poor.

Educated get priority over uneducated.

1st class passengers get priority over economy passengers.

And whether it right or wrong, which I'm not inferring, a white "customer" will get priority over an Indian "customer".

And the OP should be aware of this passing through his life.

Chinese "think" they are high on the pecking order, therefore they "jump" queues.

Russians, likewise, think the same, therefore they shout alot and are quite rude compared to Europeans.

And another "perception" is that Indians are sneaky and try get the lowest lowest price.

This post IS NOT intended to be a "racist" post IN ANY WAY, but is a response to the OP's comments on the reality of life.

[Ohio]

Very Interesting and well written . I would suggest that you have just experienced some 'normal' behaviour in Thailand.

In China they may refer to you as Lowei but it is the way it is pronounced that adds meaning. Gwai Lo is worse but you're probably not pale skinned like me. Ha ! Ha !

Farang in Thailand are all treated in many differing ways depending on Race and it has been that way for many , many , centuries.

You have a lot of patience and even as an Aussie / American I have had some similar experiences in certain Countries . I don't call it up. BUT , of course I never Tip either . Not even in USA. that leads to some interesting exchanges.

Life is full of experiences , these are some of the Many in LOS.

[oiboy]

I didn't really come to Thailand to eat Indian food. In fact I'm not a huge fan of Indian food with the exception on South Indian food. Perhaps I'm sensitive. I guess it's due to the fact that I haven't been exposed to overt displays of racism in my life. Perhaps I'm lucky for that. I wonder how you would feel if the the shoe was on the other foot?

Yes, people in the West lead pretty sheltered lives. Welcome to how the other 90% of the planet lives. Also, I wasn't suggesting you eat in Indian restaurants, these hotels have a variety of food outlets at their hotels.

I'm sure they do. I do however prefer certain hotels in Bangkok to stay at. I can eat anywhere not strictly at a hotel., whether Indian or otherwise. I do not feel that 90% of the world treat others this way though. I have lived in China for several years. My wife is actually Chinese. Racism does exist there too but it is not as overt as Thailand. I also don't believe racism is a bi-product of socio-economic conditions as I've seen some pretty racist rich Hong Kong Chinese and very open and non judgemental poor farming people there too. In fact that was a similar experience I had in Thailand. In Udon Thani and Issan in general I found people generally friendlier to me. Ate at a restaurant in UT and really liked the sai grok and the woman invited me into the kitchen and watch them make some.

[oiboy]

And whether it right or wrong, which I'm not inferring, a white "customer" will get priority over an Indian "customer".

And the OP should be aware of this passing through his life.

Chinese "think" they are high on the pecking order, therefore they "jump" queues.

Russians, likewise, think the same, therefore they shout alot and are quite rude compared to Europeans.

And another "perception" is that Indians are sneaky and try get the lowest lowest price.

This post IS NOT intended to be a "racist" post IN ANY WAY, but is a response to the OP's comments on the reality of life.

Point taken. If you do witness this sort of behaviour do you just ignore it? Say you were the Caucasian person in line behind me would you say something? They guy in line behind me had some sort of sense of self-entitlement. Just curious... Edited February 20, 2014 by oiboy

[LindsayBKK]

Well yes I knew Thais were racist but didn't know it was that bad, well... The teachers @Thai Language School I go to often make jokes about some groups but "khaek" is more often used especially when the subject of Shopping for clothes, Pratunam etc. Talking about is one thing & is not acceptable but I would not have been able to take those situations if it was me, nor a tip.

A young Burmese student in my class was harassed by a teacher in front of my eyes a few years ago. He didn't return the next day.

Thais have a problem with people who have darker skin period! ,even Thais from the NE are a target of racism.

I often feel more welcome @ 7-eleven buying a loaf of bread than spending ฿1000 @ a restaurant.

Good on you for standing your ground.

Edited February 20, 2014 by LindsayBKK

[Rimmer]

Not really Pattaya specific so best I move to the General Forum for wider input

[mmh8]

every country has its least liked nationalities. americans is well documented so wat are you gonna do

[Berkshire]

You cry racism yet refer to others as farangs. tut tut.

Farang has no racist connotation to me. If I have offended you I apologize. In china all foreigners epi non Chinese are referred to as Lowai.

Don't worry oiboy, there are still a few knobs on this forum who thinks the word farang is offensive. Ignore them.

Your OP is well-written and I feel for your plight. Is this your first time in Thailand? Do you encounter these types of behavior all the time in Thailand? Just wondering if it's isolated to certain areas. Thais--particularly in tourist areas--have a tendency to treat groups of people the same based on past experiences. I have heard that Indian tourists in the past (not sure if still the case today) have a reputation for being cheap-charlies. Regardless, the way you were treated is not right and I hope these incidences are the exception and not the norm during your time here.

[cashpower]

Sounds like Thai bashing to me, considering you're posting the same thing all over the internet
http://www.tripadvisor.com.au/ShowTopic-g293915-i3686-k7219143-Racism_or_Am_I_Too_Sensitive-Thailand.html

A Canadian will sound like an American to most people, and they aren't particularly well liked. Nor, for that matter are Indians. 2 strikes. That's life.

[cashpower]

. Is this your first time in Thailand?

Comprehension obviously isn't your strong point. It's the THIRD SENTENCE in the OP...

"I have been to Thailand many times in the past few years for work as well as for pleasure."

[simon43]

why I was been referred by the front desk ladies as khon kheak

Actually, be a little careful with that word 'khaek'. I know 'khon khaek' is a rather offensive way to refer to Indian people. But the word alone 'khaek' is often used by Thais who work in hotels to refer to guests of any nationality/ethnicity. It is not offensive in that context. It has the same meaning as 'look-ka' (sorry no Thai keyboard here).

wan-ni, mi khaek gi khon? ==> How many guests do we have today?

Simon

Edited February 20, 2014 by simon43

[Ajaan]

You cry racism yet refer to others as farangs. tut tut.

Please do not be a dick. Reply to a thread to which you have something useful to contribute. It would be better for all concerned.

[Berkshire]

. Is this your first time in Thailand?

Comprehension obviously isn't your strong point. It's the THIRD SENTENCE in the OP...

"I have been to Thailand many times in the past few years for work as well as for pleasure."

Ok, smarta*s, there was a reason why I asked that. The question would be if he's been to Thailand that many times, is this the first time where he's experienced overt racism? If so, then clearly it's isolated and not ingrained in the culture.

[cashpower]

there was a reason why I asked that.

I know there is. You fail at comprehension. The rest of your blather is drivel.

Fail