Jingthing Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Some musings on Putin and Ukraine: http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2014/03/17/140317taco_talk_remnick PUTIN’S PIQUEThe invasion demands condemnation: Ukraine is a sovereign state; it has been for a generation. Its cultural, linguistic, and historical affinities with Russia do not make it a Russian vassal. Putin’s pretext—that frightened masses of Russian-speakers in Crimea and eastern Ukraine were under physical threat from “fascists,” and were crying out for “fraternal assistance” from Russia—is a fiction generated by his intelligence services and propagated by Russian state television. (Pro-Russian Cossacks in Crimea are no less anti-Semitic than the racists among the Ukrainian nationalists—something you are not likely to learn on Channel One, in Moscow.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Right Sector leader Dmitry Yarosh is unapologetically fascist. “I’ll be fighting Jews and Russians til I die,” he said. This guy could actually get elected PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Right Sector leader Dmitry Yarosh is unapologetically fascist. “I’ll be fighting Jews and Russians til I die,” he said. This guy could actually get elected PM That would be very bad, but this is a red herring. Ukraine has been and is a very anti-semitic region ... PERIOD. Putin didn't invade and occupy Crimea and threaten other parts of Ukraine to help the Jews. Trying to defend Putin based on this issue is odious trickery. It's as false as believing Putin invading to protect the Russian population there. In any case, my research shows perhaps 80,000 Jews in Ukraine, 80 percent marrying out, and historic annual migration to Israel significant. The Zionist state of Israel will continue to welcome Ukrainian Jews who want to migrate there, whether Ukraine is independent or Russian. Cheers. http://clarissasblog.com/2014/03/05/jews-in-ukraine/ Edited March 11, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayboy Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Simon Jenkins of The Guardian gets it. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/12/ukraine-crisis-west-do-nothing-russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABCer Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Some musings on Putin and Ukraine: http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2014/03/17/140317taco_talk_remnick PUTIN’S PIQUE The invasion demands condemnation: Ukraine is a sovereign state; it has been for a generation. Its cultural, linguistic, and historical affinities with Russia do not make it a Russian vassal. Putin’s pretext—that frightened masses of Russian-speakers in Crimea and eastern Ukraine were under physical threat from “fascists,” and were crying out for “fraternal assistance” from Russia—is a fiction generated by his intelligence services and propagated by Russian state television. (Pro-Russian Cossacks in Crimea are no less anti-Semitic than the racists among the Ukrainian nationalists—something you are not likely to learn on Channel One, in Moscow.) Not really amused by your musings. First, about antisemitism: Cossacks, Russians, Ukrainians and many others are equally deeply antisemitic. This is a fact and let's not address the reasons. Second, Putin's dreams about gathering back the lands and nations of former USSR are not feasible. This is never going to happen. The loss of Asian Muslims, Caucasians, Baltic states is irreversible. But! Ignoring the cultural, religious and economic differences and similarities one must NEVER forget the realities. Moscow is and always was a menacing neighbor to all people in its North, South, West and East. The reality is that far too many Russians do live in all neighboring countries. The hateful memories run deep. But political and economic prudence must prevail. And where would a mixed bunch of Ukrainian politicians with little history, poor education and tarnished past learn this? They are too busy hating and thieving. Hating Jews, Russians, Poles, Tartars etc. Net result - Crimea. Next may be East and West. Russification was wrong but that cannot be remedied by Ukrainiasation. Both policies are and always will be resented by huge proportion of population. I hope nobody sees in this post any sympathy to Putin. But once again remember the realities! Europe will never take Ukraine into EU. They have already too many 'members' to support. And if they did, Moscow will never have Ukraine a NATO member. Remember the Cuban crisis? The only solution for Ukraine to stay independent and prosper is in treading a fine line on the fence without falling on either side. And forget about Crimea! It was never theirs anyway. P.S. There is no military solution to any of the problems discussed above. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StasD Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 First, about antisemitism: Cossacks, Russians, Ukrainians and many others are equally deeply antisemitic. This is a fact and let's not address the reasons. I think this is not according to the Thaivisa rules!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) Right Sector leader Dmitry Yarosh is unapologetically fascist. “I’ll be fighting Jews and Russians til I die,” he said. This guy could actually get elected PM That would be very bad, but this is a red herring. Ukraine has been and is a very anti-semitic region ... PERIOD. Putin didn't invade and occupy Crimea and threaten other parts of Ukraine to help the Jews. Trying to defend Putin based on this issue is odious trickery. It's as false as believing Putin invading to protect the Russian population there. In any case, my research shows perhaps 80,000 Jews in Ukraine, 80 percent marrying out, and historic annual migration to Israel significant. The Zionist state of Israel will continue to welcome Ukrainian Jews who want to migrate there, whether Ukraine is independent or Russian. Cheers. http://clarissasblog.com/2014/03/05/jews-in-ukraine/ Not trying to defend Putin's position on any of this. I mentioned earlier that he has instituted his own version of the Nurnberg Laws. IMO, Putin is very anti-semetic but IMO he is a bit more covert than most. Putin has no interest in recreating the Soviet Union. He found the whole Bolshevik revolution to be Jewish led and he is not really a Soviet in spite of the fact that he was a KGB operative. It was a job he was good at and had nothing do with his belief in communism or the Bolshevik movement. Many Ukrainians have grown up with that idea as well and is the basic reason, for example, that Yarosh lumps Russians and Jews together as his lifelong enemy. I think Yarosh incorrectly assumes Putin still has Soviet interests. An easy mistake to make IMO, several on this thread have posted similar thoughts. I see Putin as a fascist but, he is always creating a clever cover as he works his plan. Edited March 13, 2014 by Pakboong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 (edited) This is ridiculous, What difference does it make why people are antisemitic? The question in this context is obnoxious. Why are people racist? Jewish people have a wide spectrum of political POVs like any other ethnicity. The ethnicity that is actually under more immediate threat in Ukraine is TATARS, not Jews. About Jews, don't kid yourself. This Jewish thing is being used by pro Russian propagandists to defend Putin's aggression in Ukraine. Labeling the entire Ukrainian independence sentiment as fascist is a lie. Some of it is fascist, too much of it, of course. The part that the west can get behind is national self determination including the ethnic Russians there. I agree it doesn't need to mean joining the E.U./Nato, etc. BTW, my understanding that the minority group in Russia being used by Putin to politically scapegoat there like the Jews used to be scapegoated are GAY PEOPLE. Reports are Putin refuses to scapegoat Jews as he had good personal experiences with Jews growing up. Edited March 13, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 This is ridiculous, What difference does it make why people are antisemitic? The question in this context is obnoxious. Why are people racist? Jewish people have a wide spectrum of political POVs like any other ethnicity. The ethnicity that is actually under more immediate threat in Ukraine is TATARS, not Jews. About Jews, don't kid yourself. This Jewish thing is being used by pro Russian propagandists to defend Putin's aggression in Ukraine. Labeling the entire Ukrainian independence sentiment as fascist is a lie. Some of it is fascist, too much of it, of course. The part that the west can get behind is national self determination including the ethnic Russians there. I agree it doesn't need to mean joining the E.U./Nato, etc. BTW, my understanding that the minority group in Russia being used by Putin to politically scapegoat there like the Jews used to be scapegoated are GAY PEOPLE. Reports are Putin refuses to scapegoat Jews as he had good personal experiences with Jews growing up. Merely an opinion. Such extreme beliefs usually have common considerations if not common conclusions. I am interested in Putin's motives and how he manages and maneuvers. I simply find no fault in Hilary's comments on comparing him to Hitler. There are more similarities than many might think. Whether I approve of Putin is not really that relevant, I do however, want to know what makes him tick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midas Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Right Sector leader Dmitry Yarosh is unapologetically fascist. “I’ll be fighting Jews and Russians til I die,” he said. This guy could actually get elected PM That would be very bad, but this is a red herring. Ukraine has been and is a very anti-semitic region ... PERIOD. Putin didn't invade and occupy Crimea and threaten other parts of Ukraine to help the Jews. Trying to defend Putin based on this issue is odious trickery. It's as false as believing Putin invading to protect the Russian population there. In any case, my research shows perhaps 80,000 Jews in Ukraine, 80 percent marrying out, and historic annual migration to Israel significant. The Zionist state of Israel will continue to welcome Ukrainian Jews who want to migrate there, whether Ukraine is independent or Russian. Cheers. http://clarissasblog.com/2014/03/05/jews-in-ukraine/ Not trying to defend Putin's position on any of this. I mentioned earlier that he has instituted his own version of the Nurnberg Laws. IMO, Putin is very anti-semetic but IMO he is a bit more covert than most. Putin has no interest in recreating the Soviet Union. He found the whole Bolshevik revolution to be Jewish led and he is not really a Soviet in spite of the fact that he was a KGB operative. It was a job he was good at and had nothing do with his belief in communism or the Bolshevik movement. Many Ukrainians have grown up with that idea as well and is the basic reason, for example, that Yarosh lumps Russians and Jews together as his lifelong enemy. I think Yarosh incorrectly assumes Putin still has Soviet interests. An easy mistake to make IMO, several on this thread have posted similar thoughts. I see Putin as a fascist but, he is always creating a clever cover as he works his plan. Pakboong are you sure you explicitly mean anti-semetic? Or is he simply very anti supporters of " new world order " ? I think there is a significant difference between the two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 I think it's clear Putin wants to be a great strong leader Russian icon. You're looking for more nuances than are really there. He's not as smart as he is bluffing and his entire game is much more vulnerable than it seems to many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 (edited) Lots of people are very interested in what makes Putin tick. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/putin-on-the-couch-104647_full.html#.UyJZPF5RHUQ I rather like: A genius? No way....It didn’t have to be this way. With Russia’s wealth and power, Putin could by now have made himself into the senior statesman of Europe, the dean of the G-8, an international wise man. I’m reminded of a comment I once heard another post-Soviet leader make—that the KGB was an organization committed to a life-or-death struggle with imaginary enemies. If you work at it, of course, you can usually turn imaginary enemies into real ones. That’s Putin’s achievement. Edited March 14, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted March 14, 2014 Author Share Posted March 14, 2014 An off-topic post has been deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StasD Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Referendum in Crimea: 85% of populationn voted, 93% of them for joining Russia (exit-poll). Good buy mather-in-low Ukraine, I am back to mother Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Referendum in Crimea: 85% of populationn voted, 93% of them for joining Russia (exit-poll). Good buy mather-in-low Ukraine, I am back to mother Russia. Against international law and will not be accepted by much of the world. Enjoy! Hopefully, this is true that although Putin has won Ukraine, he has LOST Ukraine. MOSCOW — Russian President Vladimir Putin wanted Ukraine. He’s getting Crimea. Is that a prize or an encumbrance? If Ukraine had come under the Kremlin’s sway, Russia would have expanded its economic reach, pushed the European Union back and likely gained control of the pipelines feeding Russian natural gas to the West. That’s all lost — for now. Crimea is a different story. ... By sending troops to Crimea, refusing to deal on any substantive level with the new government in Kiev and denouncing it as a nest of Nazi sympathizers who can’t control their own country, the Kremlin has all but ensured Ukraine’s turn to the West. Officials in Kiev said they hope to sign the E.U. agreement as early as next week. President Obama welcomed Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk to the White House on Wednesday. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/crimea-as-consolation-prize-russia-faces-some-big-costs-over-ukrainian-region/2014/03/15/a807ea20-230e-4f08-8d39-a8f090eb3fba_story.html Edited March 16, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paz Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Referendum in Crimea: 85% of populationn voted, 93% of them for joining Russia (exit-poll). Good buy mather-in-low Ukraine, I am back to mother Russia.Against international law and will not be accepted by much of the world. Enjoy! I don't know about international law but I suspect it has nothing to with it. What is sure is that Crimeans have democratically decided what they want for them. Edited March 16, 2014 by paz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 (edited) Referendum in Crimea: 85% of populationn voted, 93% of them for joining Russia (exit-poll). Good buy mather-in-low Ukraine, I am back to mother Russia.Against international law and will not be accepted by much of the world. Enjoy! I don't know about international law but I suspect it has nothing to with it. What is sure is that Crimeans have democratically decided what they want for them. Putin must be pleased that his propaganda is working on some people outside of Russia. Russia has gone rogue. They will be out of the G8, etc. This breaking of international law will have consequences for them and rightly so. If Putin pushes much harder in Ukraine there really could be a bigger war. Hopefully he isn't that dumb. Edited March 16, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F430murci Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 This is a real mess and kind of scarey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Freudian slip, I hope not, but before I meant to say: Putin has won Crimea (not Ukraine!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F430murci Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Referendum in Crimea: 85% of populationn voted, 93% of them for joining Russia (exit-poll). Good buy mather-in-low Ukraine, I am back to mother Russia.Against international law and will not be accepted by much of the world. Enjoy! I don't know about international law but I suspect it has nothing to with it. What is sure is that Crimeans have democratically decided what they want for them. Putin must be pleased that his propaganda is working on some people outside of Russia. Russia has gone rogue. They will be out of the G8, etc. This breaking of international law will have consequences for them and rightly so. If Putin pushes much harder in Ukraine there really could be a bigger war. Hopefully he isn't that dumb. My Russian wife was buying his BS at first? Now she is like what is Putin thinking? Why is he doing this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Referendum in Crimea: 85% of populationn voted, 93% of them for joining Russia (exit-poll). Good buy mather-in-low Ukraine, I am back to mother Russia.Against international law and will not be accepted by much of the world. Enjoy! I don't know about international law but I suspect it has nothing to with it. What is sure is that Crimeans have democratically decided what they want for them. At the United Nations, 13 Security Council members voted for a draft resolution on Saturday saying the Crimea result should not be recognized internationally, but Moscow exercised its veto while China abstained. The resolution to make this a violation of international law did not pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paz Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Seems to me the us and eu are loosing any rationality and going by the minute. Calling a vote in the security council knowing it would have been vetoed. Lets not forget the rigth of peoole to self determination. The U.N. USA and eu should worry about the ongoing many wars and troubles of the world rather than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Seems to me the us and eu are loosing any rationality and going by the minute. Calling a vote in the security council knowing it would have been vetoed. Lets not forget the rigth of peoole to self determination. The U.N. USA and eu should worry about the ongoing many wars and troubles of the world rather than this. Even if the vote would be vetoed, it would give an message to the Russia. The rhetorics start to get harder, which is not a good thing at all. In a way I understand that former superpower wishes to regain its position in the world. This however might lead to a new cold war era. Bringing the nukes in to the discussion is never a good idea. https://mobile.twitter.com/leonidragozin/status/445263849504399360?screen_name=leonidragozin http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/russia-could-still-turn-the-u-s-into-radioactive-dust-news-anchor-in-moscow-reminds-viewers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicog Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 About 93% of Crimean voters have backed joining Russia and seceding from Ukraine, exit polls have suggested. Did I mention that the Polls are being run by North Korea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StasD Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 About 93% of Crimean voters have backed joining Russia and seceding from Ukraine, exit polls have suggested. Did I mention that the Polls are being run by North Korea? I mean only that Crimea does not want to live under Ukranians' Nazi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) About 93% of Crimean voters have backed joining Russia and seceding from Ukraine, exit polls have suggested. Did I mention that the Polls are being run by North Korea? I mean only that Crimea does not want to live under Ukranians' Nazi Russia has Nazis too. The question of staying with Ukraine under the current status quo wasn't even asked in this fake election. The cultural Ukrainians in Crimea (about 25 percent) were afraid to even show their flag during this intimidation election period ... how do you think they and the Tatars feel now? It was all engineered by dictator Putin. Russia has broken a promise with Ukraine not to mess with their borders and that's why the world now sees Putin's Russia as gone rogue and not fit for G8, etc. This is assuming Russia goes ahead with annexing Crimea (and possibly more) which seems highly probable. Putin could stop this craziness now and just take the vote as a propaganda show and not actually annex Crimea, but that's doubtful he will show that level of restraint. Edited March 17, 2014 by Jingthing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dether Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I'm afraid of a third world war, but hopefully will end only on what we know as the "cold war". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I'm afraid of a third world war, but hopefully will end only on what we know as the "cold war". Yeah hopefully not WW3 but countries all over the world will be taking a lesson from Ukraine, give up your nukes or your development program ... get invaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricketnut Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I'm afraid of a third world war, but hopefully will end only on what we know as the "cold war".Yeah hopefully not WW3 but countries all over the world will be taking a lesson from Ukraine, give up your nukes or your development program ... get invaded. No one including the US has the balls to really do ANYTHING about this. Mark these words, gee sanctions against less then 20 people, wow that is going to hurt.Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE 8.2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingthing Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Nothing yet but that doesn't mean there won't be more later. Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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