Kasikorn ATM error - double charge

[draftvader]

Straight away I am not looking for advice on this one. This is more my opportunity to give an impartial view on how K-Bank deals with a banking error. I have no idea how this will pan out but I will post each contact and change so that people can see how (without bias....yet!) K-Bank helps a customer with a genuine error.

Friday 28th - 06:30

I went to my nearby K-Bank branch (not my account branch) on Chaeng Wattana to withdraw B8,900 (always withdraw a X,900 figure to get smaller denominations). As soon as I had requested the specific amount the machine stated for me to wait (normal process). After 20 seconds or so I realised that the machine had not started counting the notes yet and nothing had changed on the machine. I waited a little longer (probably another 20 seconds) then pressed "Cancel". Nothing changed. Thinking I was going to have to wait with the machine until the bank opened I started to curse a little and began to think about what to do. Finally, about 2 minutes after it started the transaction, the machine gave me my money, showed my debited balance, offered me a receipt (declined) and gave me back my card. I went home and got on with my day.

Friday 28th - 16:00

Being the end of the month I was closing out my personal accounts for the month and moving money between banks to pay all my bills on the 1st. I noticed that none of my transactions were having any effect on the account balance and I also noticed that my transaction in the morning was showing 2 entries, 1 out and 1 in (an ATM reversal). The, usually instant, account online transaction confirmation e-mails didn't arrive in my e-mail until nearly 20:00. I guessed that there were some problems with their banking systems and they would update the records by the morning.

Saturday 1st - 06:30

Upon checking my account this morning I found that all the records had updated but the 2nd ATM transaction (previously showing a reversal) now showed a 2nd identical withdrawal at the same moment from the same ATM. I have called K-Bank's call center and explained everything. They have confirmed that they will process this issue on the next business day (Monday) and let me know their next account within 72 hours. The have said that they will check the ATM records and money for a discrepancy. I have inquired as to whether they have a camera in the machine and they have confirmed that they do but they don't check these as a routine but the data is there if needed (to confirm I made 1 transaction then left the machine in case the machine somehow made a 2nd transaction without a card...after all these machines are based on Win XP).

So I thought it would be an interesting, neutral (for now), exercise to let people know how K-Bank react to this unfortunate circumstance. This probably won't be of interest to many but might serve as a usual reference in the future. More soon....

[Dork]

For some reason I had thought most ATM's ran a special version of Windows CE but I just googled it and you're right, apparently XP is indeed the most common operating system. I've seen the odd machine displaying one of those old inane windows error messages like "Remove the illegal object name character" and wondered how (say) a Chinese tourist might interpret when that trying to use the ATM.

Anyway I really doubt you will have any problem. I've banked with Thai Farmers/Kasikorn for almost 20 years and had the odd glitch in that time but it has always been resolved quickly and professionally. I have to say I feel very secure using their electronic banking systems.

Look forward to hearing the resolution. Good luck!

[technologybytes]

The ATM has a number of fail-safe protocols to prevent double charge or charge where no cash is dispensed. The OS that controls the user interface (ie the screen in front of you) is often based on Windows XP Professional, but the actual OS that deals with the bank transaction protocols is certainly not Windows XP..

The ATM correctly identified a failed transaction and created a credit and a corresponding debit on the account, my guess is that a human at the bank intervened somewhere along the line and created an error.

Some people think that a ATM charges your account when you request money, it does not. It charges your account only when the cash is dispensed. If you ask for 10,000 baht and it dispenses 9,000 baht then you are charged 9,000 baht but a hold will be placed on your account for the 10,000 a little like a credit card authorisation. That hold may last hours or days in the event of a real catastrophic system error but should always expire without a charge. In the meantime in the worst case scenario a balance enquiry may appear to show that as a deduction for the period of the hold.

Of course the ATM and systems have fail safe protocols but humans do not, so god only knows how the bank staff may interpret this, it's likely they would not have the training or the experience to recognise the sequence and may try and "correct" the entry.

By the way, Kasikorn Bank staff appear to me to be the worst trained bank staff in Thailand, they often give customers blatant untrue information and incorrect advice.

Edited March 2, 2014 by technologybytes

[NoshowJones]

For some reason I had thought most ATM's ran a special version of Windows CE but I just googled it and you're right, apparently XP is indeed the most common operating system. I've seen the odd machine displaying one of those old inane windows error messages like "Remove the illegal object name character" and wondered how (say) a Chinese tourist might interpret when that trying to use the ATM.

Anyway I really doubt you will have any problem. I've banked with Thai Farmers/Kasikorn for almost 20 years and had the odd glitch in that time but it has always been resolved quickly and professionally. I have to say I feel very secure using their electronic banking systems.

Look forward to hearing the resolution. Good luck!

Kasikorns debit card K web or something like that is a disgrace, I am on the verge of handing back my debit card, and only keeping a deposit account. Bangkok Bank is the only debit card I will use now. I have just used it to book a hotel in the UK. No hassle at all.

I think all the branches of all the banks in Thailand allow their managers to run the banks as they please. The some will do this and some will do that mentality, some of the stall are competent and some are not.

I think everything involving banks is down to an individuals luck, as is many organisations in this country. Too many people have too much power, and this being Thailand, very little common sense.

[NoshowJones]

The ATM has a number of fail-safe protocols to prevent double charge or charge where no cash is dispensed. The OS that controls the user interface (ie the screen in front of you) is often based on Windows XP Professional, but the actual OS that deals with the bank transaction protocols is certainly not Windows XP..

The ATM correctly identified a failed transaction and created a credit and a corresponding debit on the account, my guess is that a human at the bank intervened somewhere along the line and created an error.

Some people think that a ATM charges your account when you request money, it does not. It charges your account only when the cash is dispensed. If you ask for 10,000 baht and it dispenses 9,000 baht then you are charged 9,000 baht but a hold will be placed on your account for the 10,000 a little like a credit card authorisation. That hold may last hours or days in the event of a real catastrophic system error but should always expire without a charge. In the meantime in the worst case scenario a balance enquiry may appear to show that as a deduction for the period of the hold.

Of course the ATM and systems have fail safe protocols but humans do not, so god only knows how the bank staff may interpret this, it's likely they would not have the training or the experience to recognise the sequence and may try and "correct" the entry.

By the way, Kasikorn Bank staff appear to me to be the worst trained bank staff in Thailand, they often give customers blatant untrue information and incorrect advice.

Your last paragraph is so true.

[CharlieH]

"By the way, Kasikorn Bank staff appear to me to be the worst trained bank staff in Thailand, they often give customers blatant untrue information and incorrect advice"

In my experience this is 100% correct.

[rotary]

Any computer running Windows could be sad news I am afraid.

[luis888]

"By the way, Kasikorn Bank staff appear to me to be the worst trained bank staff in Thailand, they often give customers blatant untrue information and incorrect advice"

In my experience this is 100% correct.

Damn, I was planning to open an account in K bank Patts in April when I go there, it may be off topic but can you advise which is better bank

[Pormax]

I have banked with Kasikorn for over 8 years and although agree that customer service could and should be improved I have had no real problems with one exception.

This was sitting with a number waiting for my turn to get a letter for immigration and another time a passbook renewal. Thai people would just come in not take a ticket and go straight to the teller they knew, standing beside or behind the customer being served, and when that customer was finished just sat down and got served.

This I find typical of Thai people trying to jump the queue whether in a supermaket, 7/11 or at a pharmacy, they will not wait their turn.

I suspect this happens in all banks so for me Kasikorn Bank is ok.

[KIWIBATCH]

I dont think you need worry about the double withdrawal problem.I had a similar issue a while back...withdrawing from my KK a/c via a Bangkok Bank ATM 6000b.....machine whirred and clicked no money dispensed..... but got my card back....then shock horror got an sms on my phone from KK indicating a 6000b withdrawal (KK provide this sms service - darn good idea to have)

...called the KK call centre..explained the problem...they were able to track the transaction back to the BKK Bank machine while I was on hold.....they "froze" the withdrawal in their KK system...told me I would have to wait 72 hours and they would call me back

....they called back 68 hours later....confirmed I had not in fact been dispensed the 6k....I asked them (out of interest) how they were able to determine that........and they told me that within all ATM machines is a computer programme that reconciles the money originally loaded into the machine versus the withdrawals...versus the transactions made (by folk withdrawing money).......as well as a camera..

( I have watched the chaps loading the machines with money.....out with one steel case (empty of cash) and in with a new one loaded with cash...the new case is then replugged into the ATM's computer system etc)

Seems pretty well fail safe to me.

[khrab]

I had a similar issue some years ago with Kasikorn. Paid at Tops and the 1st time payment was not approved. Clerk swapped the card again and it worked out.

Later in the day I found two debits on my account (online) BUT all debits go first into RECENT TRANSACTIONS before finally debited.

One (or some) day(s) later only one was posted.

[jacko45k]

For some reason I had thought most ATM's ran a special version of Windows CE but I just googled it and you're right, apparently XP is indeed the most common operating system. I've seen the odd machine displaying one of those old inane windows error messages like "Remove the illegal object name character" and wondered how (say) a Chinese tourist might interpret when that trying to use the ATM.

Anyway I really doubt you will have any problem. I've banked with Thai Farmers/Kasikorn for almost 20 years and had the odd glitch in that time but it has always been resolved quickly and professionally. I have to say I feel very secure using their electronic banking systems.

Look forward to hearing the resolution. Good luck!

Kasikorns debit card K web or something like that is a disgrace, I am on the verge of handing back my debit card, and only keeping a deposit account. Bangkok Bank is the only debit card I will use now. I have just used it to book a hotel in the UK. No hassle at all.

I think all the branches of all the banks in Thailand allow their managers to run the banks as they please. The some will do this and some will do that mentality, some of the stall are competent and some are not.

I think everything involving banks is down to an individuals luck, as is many organisations in this country. Too many people have too much power, and this being Thailand, very little common sense.

Haha, a bit of a coincidence but my new 'smart' (with chip) card with Bangkok Bank had a hiccough yesterday. Kept telling me all sorts of erroneous messages about how much was available and I kept adjusting the withdrawal amount to get it to work. It eventually got into a counting cycle which went on and on, a SMS arrived at my phone saying I had made a withdrawal, and reduced balance, no money came out and I was left confused on a Sunday morning skint! Fortunately I did manage to get the card back.

I believe the machine was low on various notes, as it was a new month. The English messages were confusing.

No sign of the withdrawal when I checked the internet and I hope it stays that way!

Edited March 2, 2014 by jacko45k

[Bkungbank]

Kasikorn ATM change language that causing me a problems when you used certain machine press change language it became choose change password and then follow by cancel transaction as they just add extra languages into ATM.

One more thing to remind user not to used on line banking in public wifi which has not secure as you transaction might be hack

Edited March 2, 2014 by Bkungbank

[NoshowJones]

For some reason I had thought most ATM's ran a special version of Windows CE but I just googled it and you're right, apparently XP is indeed the most common operating system. I've seen the odd machine displaying one of those old inane windows error messages like "Remove the illegal object name character" and wondered how (say) a Chinese tourist might interpret when that trying to use the ATM.

Anyway I really doubt you will have any problem. I've banked with Thai Farmers/Kasikorn for almost 20 years and had the odd glitch in that time but it has always been resolved quickly and professionally. I have to say I feel very secure using their electronic banking systems.

Look forward to hearing the resolution. Good luck!

Kasikorns debit card K web or something like that is a disgrace, I am on the verge of handing back my debit card, and only keeping a deposit account. Bangkok Bank is the only debit card I will use now. I have just used it to book a hotel in the UK. No hassle at all.

I think all the branches of all the banks in Thailand allow their managers to run the banks as they please. The some will do this and some will do that mentality, some of the stall are competent and some are not.

I think everything involving banks is down to an individuals luck, as is many organisations in this country. Too many people have too much power, and this being Thailand, very little common sense.

Haha, a bit of a coincidence but my new 'smart' (with chip) card with Bangkok Bank had a hiccough yesterday. Kept telling me all sorts of erroneous messages about how much was available and I kept adjusting the withdrawal amount to get it to work. It eventually got into a counting cycle which went on and on, a SMS arrived at my phone saying I had made a withdrawal, and reduced balance, no money came out and I was left confused on a Sunday morning skint! Fortunately I did manage to get the card back.

I believe the machine was low on various notes, as it was a new month. The English messages were confusing.

No sign of the withdrawal when I checked the internet and I hope it stays that way!

Yes, you are dealing with banks in Thailand. Hope everything is OK for you.

[NoshowJones]

I have banked with Kasikorn for over 8 years and although agree that customer service could and should be improved I have had no real problems with one exception.

This was sitting with a number waiting for my turn to get a letter for immigration and another time a passbook renewal. Thai people would just come in not take a ticket and go straight to the teller they knew, standing beside or behind the customer being served, and when that customer was finished just sat down and got served.

This I find typical of Thai people trying to jump the queue whether in a supermaket, 7/11 or at a pharmacy, they will not wait their turn.

I suspect this happens in all banks so for me Kasikorn Bank is ok.

If you sit back and allow this to happen you are off your head. No one but no one jumps in front of me in any queue and gets away with it.

[Briggsy]

60% chance you get the 8900 Baht credited back to your a/c. 40% chance you lose it. If you get an official refusal, your chances drop from 40% to 10%.

Great idea to post nothing but the events as they unfold. Don't get sucked into the vortex of comments.

[Dork]

60% chance you get the 8900 Baht credited back to your a/c. 40% chance you lose it. If you get an official refusal, your chances drop from 40% to 10%.

Great idea to post nothing but the events as they unfold. Don't get sucked into the vortex of comments.

99.9% chance the op gets the money credited back.

We'll see when the op reports back. My guess is that will be today.

[sprq]

Interesting to hear all the info in the thread, but why the OP declined a receipt is a mystery to me. The only sensible option to me is to take a receipt for each and every ATM withdrawal, and keep it for checking against my passbook and/or online banking records. In a case like this, it seems madness to decline one.

[Jonmarleesco]

Should be interesting. One branch has, for several weeks, had issues with its CDMs, which are always full. Meanwhile, they have converted their ATMs to ATM/ADMs but have yet to replace the official signs and have stuck handwritten signs on the wall above each machine, predictably only in Thai. Equally predictably, the machine offers several language options for the ATM function, but only Thai for the ADM function.

And last year, I had a few issues with incorrect/duplicate debit card transactions. One, for all of B450, involved an hour on the phone and when it proved irresolvable, I needed to complete a claim form and wait a few weeks for the credit. Another, where the outlet reversed the debit, didn't appear as a credit for several weeks and needed to be chased. Yet another was reversed and credited immediately. Those issues seem to depend on the competence, or not, of the merchant more than on that of Kasikorn.

[loong]

What is an ADM?

[draftvader]

UPDATE

Checked my account this morning...nothing. Just decided to check again and found that it was very difficult to login. After a few attempts I got in and found the following entry.

03/03/14
09:32:51 Branch Adjustment no book 8,900.00 0.00 ATM XXXXXX

So it looks to me like the error was flagged to the branch by the call centre and they reviewed their records first thing on the 1st working day. I will hold my breath a little longer as I won't believe that it is committed until I see it still there tomorrow morning.

Interestingly, to back up the claims of poor customer service, they haven't called me as they said they would. However, I'll give them a day before I declare them useless.

More tomorrow.

[khrab]

UPDATE

Checked my account this morning...nothing. Just decided to check again and found that it was very difficult to login. After a few attempts I got in and found the following entry.

03/03/14

09:32:51 Branch Adjustment no book 8,900.00 0.00 ATM XXXXXX

So it looks to me like the error was flagged to the branch by the call centre and they reviewed their records first thing on the 1st working day. I will hold my breath a little longer as I won't believe that it is committed until I see it still there tomorrow morning.

Interestingly, to back up the claims of poor customer service, they haven't called me as they said they would. However, I'll give them a day before I declare them useless.

More tomorrow.

Did you read my post #11 ??

No flagging or whatsoever. Their systems checks automaticlly the charges under "recent" before they post on your accout!

[Pib]

UPDATE

Checked my account this morning...nothing. Just decided to check again and found that it was very difficult to login. After a few attempts I got in and found the following entry.

03/03/14

09:32:51 Branch Adjustment no book 8,900.00 0.00 ATM XXXXXX

So it looks to me like the error was flagged to the branch by the call centre and they reviewed their records first thing on the 1st working day. I will hold my breath a little longer as I won't believe that it is committed until I see it still there tomorrow morning.

Interestingly, to back up the claims of poor customer service, they haven't called me as they said they would. However, I'll give them a day before I declare them useless.

More tomorrow.

The funds will still be there tomorrow since the adjustment has posted to your account. Just as FYI, the "...no book..." part means the adjustment was made without having your passbook available. In my years of being in Thailand and when ever I had a problem with a bank account, internet account, and just any problem where you were working with the product/service provider and they promised a phone call back, I would say only around 10% of the time did they call back. Just a Thai customer service rule of thumb thing I guess...that is, you call them; they don't call you.

[Briggsy]

Don't get sucked into the vortex. Factual updates only. Hold firm.

[draftvader]

Money still there but no attempt from K-Bank to contact me as stated by them. I really didn't think they would and this is a global phenomena. If I owed them money they would make sure I knew they were there!

Anyway, all over. Would seem that the process worked (however that is....not that bothered about the technicalities of ATM transaction accounting) but their "business voice" is silent. I remember in the UK never hearing from my bank until the sale of my house went through and £170,000 turned up in my account. That call happened almost instantly! No surprise. I took great joy in explaining how I was going to cancel all my debt (felt amazing), invest some and then spend the rest travelling around the world for a couple of years. Couldn't have spent it better The joy I took from the silence as my bank manager realised I would not invest a penny with him was priceless.

[draftvader]

I spoke too soon and I owe Kasikorn and apology. They called me this morning at 09:30 to confirm that I knew the payment had been reversed.

Kudos to K-Bank. Thumbs up.