Missing Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 239 triggers Southeast Asia search

[soihok]

Imagine running out of fuel in the air? All silent (apart from screaming and panic) and dark.

Terrible.

RIP

[MrWorldwide]

The only climb down is for the nutty types claiming plane was high jacked to Pakistan or China for gold or for mad scientist on board, but they will now make even nuttier claims that debris was planted where ever it is found.

Trust me, you will get no such 'climb down' from either of the following members : neversure and speedtripler.

Gentlemen, I threw the line in about Bin Laden to see what reaction it would elicit - my apologies to draftvader for inadvertently dragging him into it - but we are now in a situation where the Malaysian government is prepared to state publicly that the plane crashed with no survivors : you simply don't do that when you have any reason to believe it's not the case. For all their drip-fed mismanagement of this incident, the Malaysians have displayed a notable lack of willingness to admit that the most obvious outcome was that the plane had crashed, killing everyone onboard. They know exactly what impact this will have on the relatives - especially the relatives from China who already want their heads on a stick - to my mind, this is the point of no return.

I accept that my assertion re the US using satellites to find Bin Laden was way OTT, but at no stage did I speculate that a terrorist group was holding a 200-ton aircraft, and 'x' passengers and crew, hostage - I'd like the people who did so to fess up and admit that they have read one too many Tom Clancy novels. In my case, I may have to stop watching 'Enemy of the State' on an endless loop

For those who want to read a less outrageous account of the use of satellite technology in the hunt for Bin Laden:

http://web.mit.edu/mitir/2009/online/finding-bin-laden.pdf

[MrWorldwide]

Imagine running out of fuel in the air? All silent (apart from screaming and panic) and dark.

Terrible.

RIP

True, but would it be any worse than the events which must have preceeded it, from the sharp turn off the Malaysia's east coast to the point where the engines stopped ? Until they find the black box, assuming it contains the missing pieces of this puzzle, the media will continue to speculate about what actually happened. 'If it was pilot suicide, I doubt the other pilot accepted his fate meekly' and so on. Still plenty of ink in this story.

[draftvader]

The only climb down is for the nutty types claiming plane was high jacked to Pakistan or China for gold or for mad scientist on board, but they will now make even nuttier claims that debris was planted where ever it is found.

Trust me, you will get no such 'climb down' from either of the following members : neversure and speedtripler.

Gentlemen, I threw the line in about Bin Laden to see what reaction it would elicit - my apologies to draftvader for inadvertently dragging him into it - but we are now in a situation where the Malaysian government is prepared to state publicly that the plane crashed with no survivors : you simply don't do that when you have any reason to believe it's not the case. For all their drip-fed mismanagement of this incident, the Malaysians have displayed a notable lack of willingness to admit that the most obvious outcome was that the plane had crashed, killing everyone onboard. They know exactly what impact this will have on the relatives - especially the relatives from China who already want their heads on a stick - to my mind, this is the point of no return.

I accept that my assertion re the US using satellites to find Bin Laden was way OTT, but at no stage did I speculate that a terrorist group was holding a 200-ton aircraft, and 'x' passengers and crew, hostage - I'd like the people who did so to fess up and admit that they have read one too many Tom Clancy novels. In my case, I may have to stop watching 'Enemy of the State' on an endless loop

For those who want to read a less outrageous account of the use of satellite technology in the hunt for Bin Laden:

http://web.mit.edu/mitir/2009/online/finding-bin-laden.pdf

That doc makes perfect sense. I can see how they would utilise that data to narrow down their possibilities. The ID is impossible from sat imagery and it is important for people to understand that BB is NOT always watching them. The evidence is always around us in the amount of CCTV cameras our governments put up. Funnily enough they can't cope with all the data from these either! The same can be said of google snooping on your e-mail. 99.99999% of us just aren't important enough to warrant their attention. Anybody planning anything untoward through this medium is akin to a WW2 spy chatting openly in the pub....they just wouldn't do it.

If anything positive is to be taken from this incident it is that the public (particularly the tin-foil hat brigade) can now know how little the world's governments can actually see of their activities.

Want to know who's really spying on you and your habits? "Club card, sir?"

[Scott]

Off-topic post deleted.

[NeverSure]

The only climb down is for the nutty types claiming plane was high jacked to Pakistan or China for gold or for mad scientist on board, but they will now make even nuttier claims that debris was planted where ever it is found.

Trust me, you will get no such 'climb down' from either of the following members : neversure and speedtripler.

Gentlemen, I threw the line in about Bin Laden to see what reaction it would elicit - my apologies to draftvader for inadvertently dragging him into it - but we are now in a situation where the Malaysian government is prepared to state publicly that the plane crashed with no survivors : you simply don't do that when you have any reason to believe it's not the case. For all their drip-fed mismanagement of this incident, the Malaysians have displayed a notable lack of willingness to admit that the most obvious outcome was that the plane had crashed, killing everyone onboard. They know exactly what impact this will have on the relatives - especially the relatives from China who already want their heads on a stick - to my mind, this is the point of no return.

I accept that my assertion re the US using satellites to find Bin Laden was way OTT, but at no stage did I speculate that a terrorist group was holding a 200-ton aircraft, and 'x' passengers and crew, hostage - I'd like the people who did so to fess up and admit that they have read one too many Tom Clancy novels. In my case, I may have to stop watching 'Enemy of the State' on an endless loop

For those who want to read a less outrageous account of the use of satellite technology in the hunt for Bin Laden:

http://web.mit.edu/mitir/2009/online/finding-bin-laden.pdf

Where's the debris field? Seat cushions etc would still be floating along with a lot of other things including things from the baggage hold.

ALL Malaysia has said is "we must assume."

No, you don't get a "climb down" from me when all they have again is assumptions. I want them to show that they know where the plane is, and they don't, MrWorldwide.

(you put my name in bold above in an insulting way so I guess it's fair play.)

Edited March 24, 2014 by NeverSure

[Mosha]

Imagine running out of fuel in the air? All silent (apart from screaming and panic) and dark.

Terrible.

RIP

True, but would it be any worse than the events which must have preceeded it, from the sharp turn off the Malaysia's east coast to the point where the engines stopped ? Until they find the black box, assuming it contains the missing pieces of this puzzle, the media will continue to speculate about what actually happened. 'If it was pilot suicide, I doubt the other pilot accepted his fate meekly' and so on. Still plenty of ink in this story.

One thing we won't know is why.

[OZEMADE]

The search for items that were spotted in the ocean has been called off/suspended due to a category 5 cyclone in the area. All aircraft have been grounded, all shipping has moved to safe areas. It is reported 80 kph winds and 4 metre seas at present.

[MrWorldwide]

Depending on what went down, we may eventually find out 'why'. Not sure how likely it is that they will find the cockpit voice recorder - I'll leave that to TV's resident experts.

http://natgeotv.com/uk/air-crash-investigation/black-box

Any commercial aeroplane or corporate jet is required to be equipped with a cockpit voice recorder and a flight data recorder. It is these two items of separate equipment which we commonly refer to as a ‘Black Box.’ While they do nothing to help the plane when it is in the air, both these pieces of equipment are vitally important should the plane crash, as they help crash investigators find out what happened just before the crash.

THE COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER
The main purpose of the Cockpit Voice Recorder is, unsurprisingly, to record what the crew say and monitor any sounds that occur within the cockpit. While investigators might be interested in any witty banter between pilots that went on just before an explosion or plane malfunction, trained investigators are keen to pick up on sounds such as engine noise, stall warnings or emergency pings and pops. Investigators are so skilled that they are then able to work out crucial flight information such as the speed the plane was travelling and engine rpm and can sometimes pinpoint the cause of a crash from the very sounds the plane was making before it crashed. The Cockpit Voice Recorder is also extremely important for determining the timing of events as it contains information such as communication between the crew and ground control and other aircraft. The Cockpit Voice Recorder is usually located in the tail of a plane.

THE FLIGHT DATA RECORDER

Of equal, if not more significance to the Cockpit Voice Recorder, is the Flight Data Recorder. This piece of equipment is essential to the work of Air Crash Investigators as it records the many different operating functions of a plane all at once, such as the time, altitude, airspeed and direction the plane is heading. But these are just the primary functions of the recorder, in fact, modern Flight Data Recorders are able to monitor countless other actions undertaken by the plane, such as the movement of individual flaps on the wings, auto-pilot and fuel gauge. Information stored in the Flight Data Recorder of a plane that has crashed is invaluable for investigators in their search for determining what caused a specific crash. The data stored on the recorders helps Air Crash Investigators generate computer video reconstructions of a flight, so that they can visualise how a plane was handling shortly before a crash.

The Flight Data Recorder and the Cockpit Voice Recorder are invaluable tools for Air Crash Investigators worldwide and will continue to play a major role in finding out the causes of aviation accidents, as well as offering plane manufacturers and government’s considerable ideas to help make air travel as safe as possible.

[NanLaew]

Imagine running out of fuel in the air? All silent (apart from screaming and panic) and dark.

Terrible.

RIP

True, but would it be any worse than the events which must have preceeded it, from the sharp turn off the Malaysia's east coast to the point where the engines stopped ? Until they find the black box, assuming it contains the missing pieces of this puzzle, the media will continue to speculate about what actually happened. 'If it was pilot suicide, I doubt the other pilot accepted his fate meekly' and so on. Still plenty of ink in this story.

One thing we won't know is why.

Unless the pilot, flying alone was muttering to himself in the way that they do on Asian soaps..... and he left the CVR on. If it was him I mean.

Reading the first BBC news article about the amount of what appears to be some intense form of number crunching by the engineers and analysts at Inmarsat and AAIB, quite a feat by all accounts.

A few days ago, the BBC also interviewed the lady that led the US team of mathematicians that finally solved the location of the downed AF plane off Brazil. Their first attempt was a bust but by changing their mathematical model slightly, they came up with the right location and the wreckage was located and the black box and CVR recovered. However, she commented that they had ACARS and all the other data right up to splashdown so had a fairly tight start grid to work from. Her opinion as one who has truly and uniquely been there and done that was whoever leads the search for the Malaysian plane won't have such a well defined 'aim point' to start with and despairs that the aircraft, victims, voice and data recorders may never be found.

[MrWorldwide]

@NanLaew, your assumption is that the remaining pilot (there were two - the Pilot and his First Officer) has barricaded himself inside the flight deck for hours, completely ignoring any attempts by the crew or passengers to gain access. A completely silent, 7000km+ flight with close to 300 people in the rear of the aircraft, and your scenario has a lone pilot in the cockpit waiting for the plane to run out of fuel. I agree that mental illness is definitely a potential issue here

[Mosha]

Depending on what went down, we may eventually find out 'why'. Not sure how likely it is that they will find the cockpit voice recorder - I'll leave that to TV's resident experts.

http://natgeotv.com/uk/air-crash-investigation/black-box

Any commercial aeroplane or corporate jet is required to be equipped with a cockpit voice recorder and a flight data recorder. It is these two items of separate equipment which we commonly refer to as a ‘Black Box.’ While they do nothing to help the plane when it is in the air, both these pieces of equipment are vitally important should the plane crash, as they help crash investigators find out what happened just before the crash.

THE COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER

The main purpose of the Cockpit Voice Recorder is, unsurprisingly, to record what the crew say and monitor any sounds that occur within the cockpit. While investigators might be interested in any witty banter between pilots that went on just before an explosion or plane malfunction, trained investigators are keen to pick up on sounds such as engine noise, stall warnings or emergency pings and pops. Investigators are so skilled that they are then able to work out crucial flight information such as the speed the plane was travelling and engine rpm and can sometimes pinpoint the cause of a crash from the very sounds the plane was making before it crashed. The Cockpit Voice Recorder is also extremely important for determining the timing of events as it contains information such as communication between the crew and ground control and other aircraft. The Cockpit Voice Recorder is usually located in the tail of a plane.

THE FLIGHT DATA RECORDER

Of equal, if not more significance to the Cockpit Voice Recorder, is the Flight Data Recorder. This piece of equipment is essential to the work of Air Crash Investigators as it records the many different operating functions of a plane all at once, such as the time, altitude, airspeed and direction the plane is heading. But these are just the primary functions of the recorder, in fact, modern Flight Data Recorders are able to monitor countless other actions undertaken by the plane, such as the movement of individual flaps on the wings, auto-pilot and fuel gauge. Information stored in the Flight Data Recorder of a plane that has crashed is invaluable for investigators in their search for determining what caused a specific crash. The data stored on the recorders helps Air Crash Investigators generate computer video reconstructions of a flight, so that they can visualise how a plane was handling shortly before a crash.

The Flight Data Recorder and the Cockpit Voice Recorder are invaluable tools for Air Crash Investigators worldwide and will continue to play a major role in finding out the causes of aviation accidents, as well as offering plane manufacturers and government’s considerable ideas to help make air travel as safe as possible.

Trouble with the voice recorder is, it is a loop, so it records over "old" recordings.

[boomerangutang]

As sad as it is - to have a plane full of people die - that's about how many people die on Thai roads in any 12 day period, or during a few days during Songkran or any New Year's weekend.

Songkran 2013? .....321 killed source

Edited March 25, 2014 by boomerangutang

[Tywais]

Trouble with the voice recorder is, it is a loop, so it records over "old" recordings.

Requirements is that it must be able to loop and record for 30 minutes but NTSB has recommended 2 hours. Either case,at the original loss of contact with the aircraft, the voice data for that time is gone.

[canuckamuck]

The press seems to be going with a hypoxia theory, which does answer some questions about why it kept flying. But we still have some strange maneuvers to explain, the lack of communication, no transponders, we still have no wreckage, and we still do not know if the problem was mechanical, pilot error, hijack, or mass murder suicide.

[canuckamuck]

Trouble with the voice recorder is, it is a loop, so it records over "old" recordings.

Requirements is that it must be able to loop and record for 30 minutes but NTSB has recommended 2 hours. Either case,at the original loss of contact with the aircraft, the voice data for that time is gone.

They must be using some pretty old tech to have that kind of time limitation. I can't imagine why they couldn't have the last several flights saved up as mp3 files in a bank of flash drives.

[Tywais]

Trouble with the voice recorder is, it is a loop, so it records over "old" recordings.

Requirements is that it must be able to loop and record for 30 minutes but NTSB has recommended 2 hours. Either case,at the original loss of contact with the aircraft, the voice data for that time is gone.

They must be using some pretty old tech to have that kind of time limitation. I can't imagine why they couldn't have the last several flights saved up as mp3 files in a bank of flash drives.

Some other flight forums ask the same question, why tape and not solid state mp3. My guess is it is a long tried and true technology that just works and is reliable. Or expense?

[NanLaew]

@NanLaew, your assumption is that the remaining pilot (there were two - the Pilot and his First Officer) has barricaded himself inside the flight deck for hours, completely ignoring any attempts by the crew or passengers to gain access. A completely silent, 7000km+ flight with close to 300 people in the rear of the aircraft, and your scenario has a lone pilot in the cockpit waiting for the plane to run out of fuel. I agree that mental illness is definitely a potential issue here

And what part of "... If it was him I mean." was so <deleted>' easy for you (and them what like you) to overlook?

So sharp you'll cut yourself.

[JDGRUEN]

When a relatively small area of Indian Ocean is determined to be the probable crash site ... this will be the way that the actual wreckage will be found ... robotic side scan device - basically an underwater drone that plies the search area in a grid pattern making scans that covers a wide swath and depth....

The device is supplied by the Woods Hole Oceanic Research group and is the one that found the infamous French Airliner crash off Brazil

http://www.underwatertimes.com/news.php?article_id=60835910217

[ABCer]

From the very start of information appearing in world media about the 'mysterious' disappearance of MH370 I posted numerous statements here on TV that the key to solving 'mystery' lies on the ground, namely with Malaysian Gov't, Malaysian Military and the Management of Malaysian Airlines.

No matter what exactly happened with the Boeing 777 after about 1 hr after take off when the communication with the flight ended it must have been treated as a 'suspect' flight. Drastic change of flight path should make it more 'suspect'.

I cannot possibly know the capability of Malaysia of keeping an eye on the flight by civilian, military or satellite means but Malaysians are guilty of cover up, nondisclosure and not alerting the world to the facts.

For whatever reasons. It is this nondisclosure which has caused the further events to become a 'mystery'.

I am hoping and waiting for the world countries to take actions against Malaysia on these grounds. Whether the loss of lives and aircraft were the consequence of malaysian inaction I cannot say. But the 'mystery' is their responsibility, both factually and morally. A group legal action in an International Court must be in order. Perhaps a revision of existing rules and procedures by an International Aviation Authority is in order.

The costs involved in the search by many countries (Chinese, Australians, USA, and many others) should be reimbursed. The damages to victims and their families should be reimbursed. The future of Malaysian Airlines as a member of IATA is under question pending a full investigation of the facts that happened not in a remote area of South Indian ocean, but on the Malaysian territory.

In the meantime I will be thinking twice about flying with Malaysian Airlines.

[MrWorldwide]

I'd fly with MAS tomorrow - statistically, the passengers on that flight won Powerball : just not the Powerball they were hoping for. The cretin who inferred that Asian pilots were sub-standard earlier in this thread seems to have conveniently forgotten that Asian crews fly in and out of airports all over the world and don't just do routes within Asia - a good pilot is a good pilot, simple as that. Whatever happened in this instance was an aberration - how it was handled by the management of MAS and their backers in the Malaysian govt is a much bigger issue than any alleged failing on the part of the crew of this single flight. Until hypoxia or a fire in the cockpit are completely ruled out, I'm not going to assume anything.

[NanLaew]

When a relatively small area of Indian Ocean is determined to be the probable crash site ... this will be the way that the actual wreckage will be found ... robotic side scan device - basically an underwater drone that plies the search area in a grid pattern making scans that covers a wide swath and depth....

The device is supplied by the Woods Hole Oceanic Research group and is the one that found the infamous French Airliner crash off Brazil

http://www.underwatertimes.com/news.php?article_id=60835910217

Indeed a very specialised piece of equipment but where to start? With reference in particular to the Air France loss offshore Brazil (article here), their task was comparatively easier due to all the stricken aircraft's navigational aids, transmissions and pings being functional and recorded right up to the point of impact with the result that the mathematics specialists from Metron Inc had the following benefits, "In the case of the Air France plane, they could be sure that the plane had come down within a 40-mile radius of the last location pinged out by its on-board computer system."

The only pings that came from the Malaysian aircraft were from the engine systems and the frequency of the pinging was lower than in the Air France crash which was comparably continuous. There's the possibility that the Malaysian aircraft crashed immediately after the last received ping or just before the next, untransmitted ping was due to be acknowledged. Assuming the plane was on maximum cruising speed up until it crashed, this gives a much bigger footprint of probability where the plane may have went down and even with the mathematics used to find the French plane, this one is much, much more challenging.

I have faith in our ability to improve existing technologies and develop better ones that will eventually yield the location of the wreckage and maybe some small clues as to why this tragedy happened. The high-tech but conventional search methods employed in the initial unsuccessful search for the French aircraft were trumped several years later by outside-the-box thinking AND newer and more capable hardware. I trust the same will prevail for this disaster.

[car720]

Hi, can someone help out a poor simple minded person like me?

I am having trouble understanding something about this.

It appears verified that the plane dropped to 12,000 feet, after whatever occurred, presumably to save lives. This would indicate to me that the skipper was flying the plane.

So what I want to know is, at this point why would he place the plane in auto pilot on a heading into the Indian ocean and I must presume that this was done at the same altitude to maintain life.

[GentlemanJim]

Hi, can someone help out a poor simple minded person like me?

I am having trouble understanding something about this.

It appears verified that the plane dropped to 12,000 feet, after whatever occurred, presumably to save lives. This would indicate to me that the skipper was flying the plane.

So what I want to know is, at this point why would he place the plane in auto pilot on a heading into the Indian ocean and I must presume that this was done at the same altitude to maintain life.

The UK AAIB and the people at Inmarsat are saying that the data shows that the aircraft remained at cruising altitude throughout. So 30 000 ft+. Curious eh!

[Carmine6]

Hi, can someone help out a poor simple minded person like me?

I am having trouble understanding something about this.

It appears verified that the plane dropped to 12,000 feet, after whatever occurred, presumably to save lives. This would indicate to me that the skipper was flying the plane.

So what I want to know is, at this point why would he place the plane in auto pilot on a heading into the Indian ocean and I must presume that this was done at the same altitude to maintain life.

The UK AAIB and the people at Inmarsat are saying that the data shows that the aircraft remained at cruising altitude throughout. So 30 000 ft+. Curious eh!

Though the pings are an hour apart so the altitude changes that the Malaysian radar implied could have happened in between. It was said to have been a quick sequence of events, though I'm not sure that was ever confirmed by anyone. Some people questioned it due to how fast the altitude was said to have changed.

[GentlemanJim]

Hi, can someone help out a poor simple minded person like me?

I am having trouble understanding something about this.

It appears verified that the plane dropped to 12,000 feet, after whatever occurred, presumably to save lives. This would indicate to me that the skipper was flying the plane.

So what I want to know is, at this point why would he place the plane in auto pilot on a heading into the Indian ocean and I must presume that this was done at the same altitude to maintain life.

The UK AAIB and the people at Inmarsat are saying that the data shows that the aircraft remained at cruising altitude throughout. So 30 000 ft+. Curious eh!

Though the pings are an hour apart so the altitude changes that the Malaysian radar implied could have happened in between. It was said to have been a quick sequence of events, though I'm not sure that was ever confirmed by anyone. Some people questioned it due to how fast the altitude was said to have changed.

I am not drawing any conclusions or speculating on what and why, I have just said what information, which now contradicts everything else, is being pushed out by UK AAIB and Inmarsat

[webfact]

Tracking down MH370 black boxes a Herculean challenge
Delphine TOUITOU
Agence France-Presse
PARIS

PARIS: -- Recovering the black boxes from the Malaysia Airlines jet that crashed into the southern Indian Ocean is a Herculean task, even with the wealth of sophisticated equipment being deployed.

Any hope of finding survivors from the missing plane was extinguished on Monday when Malaysia’s prime minister announced satellite data showed MH370’s journey had "ended in the southern Indian Ocean" off the west coast of Australia.

Seventeen days after the Boeing 777 disappeared, distraught relatives were forced to accept what they had long feared -- that the 239 passengers and crew on board were never coming home.

The plane’s two black boxes are key to solving the mystery of why the plane veered so far off course and its final fate, but experts say that the search for them will be long and difficult.

In theory, the black boxes containing flight data and cockpit voice recordings will continue emitting tracking signals for about another two weeks, with an average audible range of two to three kilometres (nearly two miles).

But with no debris in the remote search area confirmed as linked to the plane, it is still a case of looking for a needle in a haystack.

"Picking up a signal from the beacon seems an outside chance," said a member of the team that hunted the black boxes from Air France flight AF447 that crashed in the Atlantic in 2009.

- Vast search zone -

====================

The investigator, who asked to remain anonymous, noted that in the Air France case the signals were not heard at all. One transmitter had failed and the other had fallen off on impact and was never found, he said.

"So I’m fairly pessimistic about this approach," he said, recommending that the immediate priority should be to catalogue every piece of debris that is discovered.

"Then, ideally, data buoys should be deployed," he said. These instruments, commonly used for meteorological data, are tracked by satellite and give an idea of ocean currents in the area to help confirm mathematical models.

But he warned that the 17 days that have elapsed since the crash and the "uncertainty associated with these models will combine to make the search zone quite vast".

Commercial airliners are obliged to carry two black boxes -- the Digital Flight Data Recorder which logs the speed, altitude and direction, while the Cockpit Voice Recorder keeps track of cockpit conversations and other sounds and announcements.

Even before the official announcement that the plane had crashed, the US navy said it was flying a black box locator to Perth. The Pinger Locator, weighing 35 kilogrammes (80 pounds), is attached to a cable and towed by a ship.

It is equipped with a listening device that can detect the signals of a black box at a depth of up to 6,000 metres (20,000 feet).

- Scouring the sea floor -

==========================

If a signal is not picked up, the next stage would be to deploy lateral scanning sonars after determining the variations of the sea floor to pick up any anomalies.

All the experts who spoke to AFP believed the search operation could last a very long time -- months or more.

In the Air France crash it took 23 months to locate the main wreckage and retrieve the black boxes at a depth of 3,900 metres.

"An underwater phase to try to locate the plane from flight MH370 can only be started if the activity under way allows us to define a search zone more limited than the current search zone," France’s air accident investigation bureau (BEA) said Monday.

Once such a zone is set, if it is over a flat and sedimentary seabed, investigators can use "towed sonars and get a good coverage".

If, however, the zone is over a broken, irregular seabed, they could call in the Remus submarine drones used for the Air France search plane.

Remote operating vehicles (ROVs) could also be used in a later stage to check topographical anomalies with high-definition cameras.

"These remote-controlled robots, which have a cable linking them to the surface, move forward slowly and thus have a more reliable coverage," said the investigator, who was formerly with the BEA.

"But there as well, a very precise position is needed to use them at depth."

And even if the black boxes are found, there are no guarantees they will be in a state to give up their data.

The Malaysian authorities have said a deliberate act made MH370 disappear from civilian air control radars -- and the big question is whether the Cockpit Voice Recorder was immobilised.

"You only need to pull the breaker that is by the pilot’s seat and it is taken off-line eectrically," explained one aviation expert.

MH370’s disappearance has prompted a major debate over inflight communications, including the benefits of live streaming black box data.


-- The Nation 2014-03-25

[Carmine6]

Sorry if this has been here before.

UK satellite operator used 19th century physics to trace missing plane

(Reuters) - Britain's Inmarsat used a wave phenomenon discovered in the 19th century to analyze the seven pings its satellite picked up from Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 to determine its final destination.

---8<---

From the time the signals took to reach the satellite and the angle of elevation, Inmarsat was able to provide two arcs, one north and one south that the aircraft could have taken.

Inmarsat's scientists then interrogated the faint pings using a technique based on the Doppler effect, which describes how a wave changes frequency relative to the movement of an observer, in this case the satellite, a spokesman said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/us-malaysia-airlines-inmarsat-pings-idUSBREA2N1OJ20140324

Can any physicist or anyone else figure out what they did?

The series of pings gave a certain distance, which could have only happened on two sets of arcs. Or I assume 4 sets of arcs, but the west side of the satellite was not in play.

How would the Doppler effect be different on the southern track versus the northern track? The shapes of the tracks did not appear to be symmetrical on a map, so I assume their satellites are not quite over the equator. Would that have anything to do with it? Is is related to the fact that the earth is not a perfect sphere and the satellite is slightly off the equator?

[Asiantravel]

The only climb down is for the nutty types claiming plane was high jacked to Pakistan or China for gold or for mad scientist on board, but they will now make even nuttier claims that debris was planted where ever it is found.

Trust me, you will get no such 'climb down' from either of the following members : neversure and speedtripler.

Gentlemen, I threw the line in about Bin Laden to see what reaction it would elicit - my apologies to draftvader for inadvertently dragging him into it - but we are now in a situation where the Malaysian government is prepared to state publicly that the plane crashed with no survivors : you simply don't do that when you have any reason to believe it's not the case. For all their drip-fed mismanagement of this incident, the Malaysians have displayed a notable lack of willingness to admit that the most obvious outcome was that the plane had crashed, killing everyone onboard. They know exactly what impact this will have on the relatives - especially the relatives from China who already want their heads on a stick - to my mind, this is the point of no return.

I accept that my assertion re the US using satellites to find Bin Laden was way OTT, but at no stage did I speculate that a terrorist group was holding a 200-ton aircraft, and 'x' passengers and crew, hostage - I'd like the people who did so to fess up and admit that they have read one too many Tom Clancy novels. In my case, I may have to stop watching 'Enemy of the State' on an endless loop

For those who want to read a less outrageous account of the use of satellite technology in the hunt for Bin Laden:

http://web.mit.edu/mitir/2009/online/finding-bin-laden.pdf

Where's the debris field? Seat cushions etc would still be floating along with a lot of other things including things from the baggage hold.

ALL Malaysia has said is "we must assume."

No, you don't get a "climb down" from me when all they have again is assumptions. I want them to show that they know where the plane is, and they don't, MrWorldwide.

(you put my name in bold above in an insulting way so I guess it's fair play.)

I would think many of the passengers relatives had probably accepted one or two weeks ago those on board had already died. But I listened to their comments on BBC world carefully last night and what is making them angry is the lack of any tangible evidence whatsoever.

On the one hand, as you say Malaysia airlines say "we must assume." but on the other hand they say “it's beyond reasonable doubt “.

How can they possibly reach “beyond reasonable doubt “when the only evidence is the interpretation of satellite imagery?

[Carmine6]

Hi, can someone help out a poor simple minded person like me?

I am having trouble understanding something about this.

It appears verified that the plane dropped to 12,000 feet, after whatever occurred, presumably to save lives. This would indicate to me that the skipper was flying the plane.

So what I want to know is, at this point why would he place the plane in auto pilot on a heading into the Indian ocean and I must presume that this was done at the same altitude to maintain life.

The UK AAIB and the people at Inmarsat are saying that the data shows that the aircraft remained at cruising altitude throughout. So 30 000 ft+. Curious eh!

Though the pings are an hour apart so the altitude changes that the Malaysian radar implied could have happened in between. It was said to have been a quick sequence of events, though I'm not sure that was ever confirmed by anyone. Some people questioned it due to how fast the altitude was said to have changed.

I am not drawing any conclusions or speculating on what and why, I have just said what information, which now contradicts everything else, is being pushed out by UK AAIB and Inmarsat

I don't believe there's any contradiction unless one of the satellite pings happened at the same time the Malaysian radar reported something different. If a jailer checks on an inmate every hour, he knows where that inmate was at those times. But that doesn't guarantee that inmate wasn't digging a tunnel in the time in between the checks.