Waterproofing around a tub/shower: more than caulk?

[cheeryble]

Remember rust is itself a protective coating.

My experience is USUALLY even very rusty looking rebar if you cut into the rust you will find good shiny metal underneath.

You're joking, right ?

Rust is a corrosion and you will find shiny metal underneath until the point that the rust has eaten it all, and there isn't anything to cut in anymore.

Not joking....rust tends to somewhat limit further corrosion.....albeit imperfectly.

Should you be worried about the hole above Sheryl?

Not at all.

Agree with Lopburi rubber ring at bath outlet is first candidate.

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Edited March 21, 2014 by cheeryble

[harrry]

Remember rust is itself a protective coating.

My experience is USUALLY even very rusty looking rebar if you cut into the rust you will find good shiny metal underneath.

You're joking, right ?

Rust is a corrosion and you will find shiny metal underneath until the point that the rust has eaten it all, and there isn't anything to cut in anymore.

Not joking....rust tends to somewhat limit further corrosion.....albeit imperfectly.

Should you be worried about the hole above Sheryl?

Not at all.

Agree with Lopburi rubber ring at bath outlet is first candidate.

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Rust does not limit corrosion it continues it. What may be confusing is that you do not clean rust off when you apply anticorrosion products as they actually act on the iron ocise to produce a black non corrosive protection to the metal. They do not work on shiny metal.

[cheeryble]

Always been under the impression rust limits access of further oxygen to feed the corroding surface.

In any case if Sheryl's ceiling falls down I'll eat the rebar off the floor. Yumm...

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Edited March 22, 2014 by cheeryble

[bankruatsteve]

Iron rust is an active oxidation = it expands and sloughs off leaving 'fresh' iron to continue oxidizing. Metals like Al and Ti and many alloys like stainless steel will oxidize immediately and which forms a passive coating which does protect the metal from further oxidation.

[krisb]

I had a similar problem and it turned out the geniuses used non-waterproof grout !!

Indeed something to check out first.

Hmm, after 20 something years of building, never heard of waterproof grout before. I'd like to see a pic of the bag if you can. Grout is porous.

[krisb]

Llike the others say, it's probably either the drain or the tap. Something you can't see. I assume it's a western style bath tub?

Sure it's not the shower leaking?

[krisb]

Here's th pix, should I be worried?

21032014184.JPG

No don't worry. Water has a way of finding it's way out. You mention the bath being on sand? It should be bedded level on a concrete bed.

Wouldn't hurt to get a bit of anti rust spraypaint on that exposed metal reo bar. I think the issue is cheap Thai pipe glue. I've used it and ended up buying the better stuff. I noticed their pipe glue is more like superglue where in the west we use 2 glues that react when used together form a better seal. Usually these glues are red and blue. Ask your plumber to use the better Thai glue for a few extra baht.

[manarak]

I had a similar problem and it turned out the geniuses used non-waterproof grout !!

Indeed something to check out first.

Hmm, after 20 something years of building, never heard of waterproof grout before. I'd like to see a pic of the bag if you can. Grout is porous.

Sorry, English is not my first language, I meant the grout they used deteriorated over time in contact with water, the grout was not resistant to water.

In addition to that, they didn't use any epoxy and didn't otherwise proof the shower against leaks, which is poor practice in my opinion.

[cheeryble]

High quality epoxy is overkill, but there is a two parter available here at modest price which, if you're ripping everything out of a bathroom and starting again, can be brushed heavily across the whole floor before new tiling and up the walls a couple of inches to form a waterproof "tray".

Very useful in a condo where you may damage floors below with leaks, and especially if you're making a "wet" bathroom.

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Edited March 23, 2014 by cheeryble

[Mrjlh]

Use a "Grout Sealer". Not sure what's available as the brand goes in Thailand but I know it exists. Check this link to see how to do it.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/reseal-grout-shower-tiles-47753.html

Or you could use a "Bathroom Silicone Sealant" at the edges. Choice is yours.

[lopburi3]

Cooking oil has been used here as sealer (at least up to a decade ago).

[Sheryl]

High quality epoxy is overkill, but there is a two parter available here at modest price which, if you're ripping everything out of a bathroom and starting again, can be brushed heavily across the whole floor before new tiling and up the walls a couple of inches to form a waterproof "tray".

Very useful in a condo where you may damage floors below with leaks, and especially if you're making a "wet" bathroom.

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Name of it?

[Sheryl]

Here's th pix, should I be worried?

21032014184.JPG

No don't worry. Water has a way of finding it's way out. You mention the bath being on sand? It should be bedded level on a concrete bed.

Indeed it was with 2 rather rickety tin support things under the tub but atop sand so not well fixed. So it would have been shifting and moving about which easily would have contributed to water getting around the drain seal or other spots.

[harrry]

http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/11784/how-should-i-waterproof-an-upstairs-bathroom-floor

may help a bit.

[cheeryble]

High quality epoxy is overkill, but there is a two parter available here at modest price which, if you're ripping everything out of a bathroom and starting again, can be brushed heavily across the whole floor before new tiling and up the walls a couple of inches to form a waterproof "tray".

Very useful in a condo where you may damage floors below with leaks, and especially if you're making a "wet" bathroom.

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Name of it?

I shall check elsewhere as I may have a couple of the old half full cans Sheryl, but it came from one of the regular suspects like Homepro, Global House or Home Mart, you get two smallish perhaps 500ml cans the same size (which is why I think it's a different animal from the top grade of epoxy which is more like 4:1.)

The cans are basically white with an A and a B stamped large in red.

I left the contractor to do it but I think basically they rip out the old then try to make a moderately smooth mortar bed first, let dry, do the epoxy including a little up the walls, wait for set then top mortar and tiling. Bear in mind any floor outlets or pipes through floor will need to be set solidly in the epoxy and the bath/etc must be solidly mounted so it's pipe is stationary. Hopefully then the bathroom will be a bit like a thin skinned boat or coracle.

I will add that this may be overkill for a regular house unless you have a wet bathroom..... houses did well for many years without, but for condos with many floors below belonging to others it's well worth considering.

I remember the price as reasonable it's a cheap epoxy think less than a thousand for a small condo bathroom about 5sqm.

Just thought

You must of course have a threshold on the bathroom to run the epoxy up and make the "tray".....I think this is normal here, perhaps not back home.

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Edited March 24, 2014 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

Hi Sheryl as it was you I went exploring.

No epoxy at Global or Homepro. Suspect it was one of the more commercial suppliers or Homemart down the Superhwy, and will look in if I can get the time but no plans to go that way yet.

What I did find in Homepro was a choice of polymer brands which are also designed as a seal beneath the tiles. (You can see this pictured on the label of the right can). Assuming it's up to the job the larger 4kg can is under 1000 as shown.

I'm an epoxy lover have done a lot of epoxy work in my ex-wooden-yacht it's fantastic stuff, but hey Lanko and TOA are very reputable companies.

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Edited March 24, 2014 by cheeryble

[harrry]

Hi Sheryl as it was you I went exploring.

No epoxy at Global or Homepro. Suspect it was one of the more commercial suppliers or Homemart down the Superhwy, and will look in if I can get the time but no plans to go that way yet.

What I did find in Homepro was a choice of polymer brands which are also designed as a seal beneath the tiles. (You can see this pictured on the label of the right can). Assuming it's up to the job the larger 4kg can is under 1000 as shown.

I'm an epoxy lover have done a lot of epoxy work in my ex-wooden-yacht it's fantastic stuff, but hey Lanko and TOA are very reputable companies.

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1395647025.183466.jpg

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That TOA Waterblock is the stuff the painter used on the area of mine that was seeping through the cement on the upstairs verandah.

[Sheryl]

Many thanks - Cherryble especially! -- I have bought the TOA Waterblock and will apply it tomorrow.

This discussion has gotten me thinking re the shower floor in the guest bedroom as well. Over the years it has leaked through to the floor below 3 times, in all cases resolved with re-caulking of the tiles (and of course repair of the downstairs ceiling) but now that I understand that the floor under the tiling should have been (and clearly was not) waterproofed I understand what's going on and am thinking it would be good to correct this before the next leak.

I do not want to tear up the floor tiles, though, that's a huge hassle and invariable damages the wall tiles in the process. So I am wondering about putting down a layer of cement over the tiles, then the waterblock, then laying down a second layer of tiling. Is there any reason why that wouldn't work/be a good idea? It will make the floor a bit higher than the drain of course but can't see a down side to that as long as I silicone well around it.

[JesseFrank]

Hi Sheryl as it was you I went exploring.

No epoxy at Global or Homepro. Suspect it was one of the more commercial suppliers or Homemart down the Superhwy, and will look in if I can get the time but no plans to go that way yet.

What I did find in Homepro was a choice of polymer brands which are also designed as a seal beneath the tiles. (You can see this pictured on the label of the right can). Assuming it's up to the job the larger 4kg can is under 1000 as shown.

I'm an epoxy lover have done a lot of epoxy work in my ex-wooden-yacht it's fantastic stuff, but hey Lanko and TOA are very reputable companies.

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1395647025.183466.jpg

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Homemart has the epoxy from Weber, and I think also from that brand with the crocodile logo.

@Sheryl. If you gonna put new tiles anyway, why you not put a bitumen sheet under the cement, with the edges upwards.

[cheeryble]

Sheryl,

Briefly as I fly through my home....

Won't bother posting the photos of the A and B I mentioned I found them today.

For your shower there may be a much simpler option IF you don't need the tiles to look hunky dory.

That is to apply top quality epoxy gloss paint OVER your existing leaking tiles, again coming up the sides a little for a "tray".

The paint would be expensive and a gallon plus part B will be in the low thousands guessing 2500....it's a question of if they sell in one litre sizes or 750ml sizes or not that would be enough I think.

However you can balance that against the hassle and expense of tiling.

It comes in colours and is a high gloss. The Suzuki garage on the Doi Saket road has it on the large workshop floor.

Just a thought if you're interested I can point you to more info maybe.

If there are only small leaks between the grout lines the paint will fill them and you will finish with a truly waterproof coat.

You may want to sprinkle a touch of sand in for grip, in fact they make two part epoxy deck paint whcih already has grip and is not shiny but matt.....but the shiny one will clean better looking.

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Edited March 24, 2014 by cheeryble

[Sheryl]

Alas I am what the Brits call "house proud" so I do want the tiles to look nice.

Any reason not to have 2 tiers of tiles (with waterproofed cement in between them)?

[cheeryble]

Edit....answer on way

Edited March 25, 2014 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

No reason Sheryl though as the new tile bed will not be deep I'd use a stronger tile cement or glue rather than just a mortar (sand and cement) bed for the new tiles......plus also your waterproof barrier whatever it be.

God luck with that don't hesitate if you need more help.

I looked for my old floor epoxy I know you're not using it Sheryl but may as well show others for their reference

Te B seems to have flown away reminds me of the touching Vonnegut cartoon drawn before his death

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[Sheryl]

Thanks. This will be on the back burner for a while as I still need to repair the master bathroom, but good to know. I've learned a lot on this thread!

[krisb]

Alas I am what the Brits call "house proud" so I do want the tiles to look nice.

Any reason not to have 2 tiers of tiles (with waterproofed cement in between them)?

Yes, it's just not done this way, it's dodgy. Take the time and start fresh rather than lay another lot of tile on top. Starters your bathroom door may not close, your floor trap will be too low also.

[harrry]

I would think that if you were willing to have someone put on tiles which does need a degree of skill it would not cost here a lot more ( maybe half a days work or say 1000baht to do the job properly and remolve the tiloes which does not need a lot of skill. This would let you then properly treat the area with the waterproofing compound and maybe though I do not know about this a layer of black plastic or something too as a barrier. (check on this I am not a builder).

I would probably lay my tiles on top of others if I am in the west because of cost but a days labor which does not have to be the tilers is not that expensive here.

[krisb]

Alas I am what the Brits call "house proud" so I do want the tiles to look nice.

Any reason not to have 2 tiers of tiles (with waterproofed cement in between them)?

Yes, it's just not done this way, it's dodgy. Take the time and start fresh rather than lay another lot of tile on top. Starters your bathroom door may not close, your floor trap will be too low also.

I eat my words...I spoke to my bil who is a tiler here in Australia, and he says yes you can lay tiles over the top of each other. There's a couple ways, but the best and easiest without finding the chemical stick compound somewhere in Thailand is grind the tiles in a crossover type pattern down a few mm, then vacuum then mop them to get the dust out. Ready to overlay a new lot of tiles.

Still a little dodgy imo.

[cheeryble]

Correct but as I said normal mortar is not at all strong in thin layers, so use a better sticking compound.

By all means grind the old tiles a bit and wipe with detergent or alcohol to remove all grease.

Naturally you would need enough threshold on the shower to be able to come upwards a bit and still leave a step.

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Edited March 26, 2014 by cheeryble

[Sheryl]

The shower is set down lower than the floor (and is nowhere near the door) so this is not an issue, I can build up the floor a bit and still be OK.

Alternatively is there anything clear in color I can put over the tiles? All kinds of liquid "water resistant "stuff on the shelves at Home Pro, just no idea what they would do (and how it would look) on tiles...

[cheeryble]

Only clear epoxy but that may discolour yellow slightly with time if sun gets in.

A coloured version might look a lot better than you think however.....that's IF you can get less than an (expensive) large can.

Check the colour chart if you like

http://www.smlprotectivecoatings.co.uk/flooring/jotafloor_topcoat

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Edited March 26, 2014 by cheeryble