Thailand at crossroads: Leaving Thaksin behind in his Dubai sandcastle

[The Deerhunter]

I have no patience to go through all this anti-democratic stuff, so just let me vent about two quotes that jumped out at me:

>"Thailand at crossroads: Leaving Thaksin behind in his Dubai sandcastle"

How about leaving the coup-makers of 2006 and mostly the same coup-mongers of 2013/14 behind.....Voicing support for coup-mongers and against those with electoral roots is just so much folderol.

And before PAD-Dem's launch into trying to normalize the abnormal judiciary with respect to Thaksin, suffice it to say that only they buy into the program of coupists trying to justify their power grab with a judicial veneer, by demonizing those they coup'ed.

"...a new challenge to Thailand's cultural integrity has emerged in the form of the dominance of money and business over politics."

Nope.....The new dominance that has emerged is the politicization of the masses, and the electoral strength that has accompanied it.

Misleadingly intellectualizing about historical references to money and business over politics, and ignoring the realities of Electoral democracy, is self-serving agenda's of the unelectables....'er anti-democrats.

so what would you suggest thailand does with a government that breaks the law - cheats - lies - steals - ignores the courts - ignores parts of the constitution it doesn't like, tell me how any country deals with this, I'm sorry but IMO the army has saved Thailand from utter destruction many many times, I think a coup is the wrong word to describe what the army has done in recent years - it's more like having an extra arm of the law to step in when it all comes apart - most people associate a coup with a military dictator type of insurrection but in Thailand power is always given back to the people and elections/referendums follow very quickly - what they don't seem to be able to do each time is get a constitution that is rigid enough to avoid the constant abuse - as I've said before we keep seeing the recycle of the same corrupt MP's every 5 years - they should be banned for life, flush the system clean of this scourge.

The problem with the coups, even if the army are relatively harmless/incompetent is that it just resets the cycle over and over again. Governments are continually looking over their shoulder and any attempt to bring people in the army to book for anything is a no no. Say PDRC got their way and a neutral PM was appointed to undertake reform, do you really believe that person would dare try and deal with corruption/accountability in the army? No way in hell!

You don't need to be a rocket scientist as well to see that corruption/patronage etc runs right through the army from top to bottom- i believe the only reason they are happy to give power back fairly quickly is because they would prefer to keep their noses clean and continue their 'works' unhindered. If someone attempted to curb their gravy train, they would meet a grisly and speedy exit!

So whilst i agree that the army could be a lot worse, i believe not only are part of the problem, but their apparent benevolence is anchored much more in the need to keep a stable ship and their position at the top of the tree, rather than genuine desire to see success for the country. If they really had the best interests in mind, they would have done what you say banning, behind close doors warnings/ultimatums a long time ago- the army, political, rule of law, judiciary, big business etc is so closely linked through personal linkages like marriage, family etc it would be near impossible for anyone to carry out the required changes without stepping on buddies/family toes!

The army has been very restrained tis time. It knows it will be better for Thailand if they can :"grow up" and work it out peacefully without another coup which always temporarily arrests the cycle. This time is not a coup militarily, judicially or administratively. And we won't see one unless the reds force one by "going postal" again. The army has lots of structural problems and too many staff being paid full time who barely attend to work for their salaries between private projects. The army should not be involved in domestic internal crime/security issues, except for protection, ceremonial and otherwise, for the king. They are trying not to interfere. They are bending over backwards not to interefere. They request the police to act over the secession & private army threats, again & again. But what do you do when the police and public prosecutors have been "bought" and/or "won't" do their jobs? Rhetorical question?

[The Deerhunter]

I have no patience to go through all this anti-democratic stuff, so just let me vent about two quotes that jumped out at me:

>"Thailand at crossroads: Leaving Thaksin behind in his Dubai sandcastle"

How about leaving the coup-makers of 2006 and mostly the same coup-mongers of 2013/14 behind.....Voicing support for coup-mongers and against those with electoral roots is just so much folderol.

And before PAD-Dem's launch into trying to normalize the abnormal judiciary with respect to Thaksin, suffice it to say that only they buy into the program of coupists trying to justify their power grab with a judicial veneer, by demonizing those they coup'ed.

"...a new challenge to Thailand's cultural integrity has emerged in the form of the dominance of money and business over politics."

Nope.....The new dominance that has emerged is the politicization of the masses, and the electoral strength that has accompanied it.

Misleadingly intellectualizing about historical references to money and business over politics, and ignoring the realities of Electoral democracy, is self-serving agenda's of the unelectables....'er anti-democrats.

so what would you suggest thailand does with a government that breaks the law - cheats - lies - steals - ignores the courts - ignores parts of the constitution it doesn't like, tell me how any country deals with this, I'm sorry but IMO the army has saved Thailand from utter destruction many many times, I think a coup is the wrong word to describe what the army has done in recent years - it's more like having an extra arm of the law to step in when it all comes apart - most people associate a coup with a military dictator type of insurrection but in Thailand power is always given back to the people and elections/referendums follow very quickly - what they don't seem to be able to do each time is get a constitution that is rigid enough to avoid the constant abuse - as I've said before we keep seeing the recycle of the same corrupt MP's every 5 years - they should be banned for life, flush the system clean of this scourge.

I agree. The sad thing is Thailand will continue in this vicious cycle of vote-corruption-protest-coup unless we can change the mindset of the average Thai person that voting for politicians who promise you populist freebies will result in those same people taking your tax money to fund it and then some more for themselves with the results hardly benefiting the country as a whole.

In a way Thai's are a bit selfish. They think of themselves first and public interest second but this is natural when most are just trying to get by.

Poverty does not seem to provide the luxury for us to put the interest of the country before oneself.

Thailand needs to seriously address the issue of income disparity, good governance and education.

The most democratically mature countries are those with the highest standards of living.

Those left behind will always vote for populist policies which economically have often been proven to be unsustainable and of little benefit to the country.

This is the chink in the armor greedy politicians manipulate to their benefit.

Agree. Agree. Agree. Thais think they understand democracy. All most of them understand is voting and how to cheat at it. They have no concept of them, the voter having a personal commitment and a personal responsibility to maintaining democracy. As long as teachers get fired because incompetent lazy kids faill exams then we have 2 generations at least (the kids & their parents) actively supporting corruption. What is a good definition of corruption? How about cheating, but on a grand scale. Everytime a policeman takes teamoney, a local authority councillor or government employee "counts the money in the brown paper bag" corruption is alive & well. Thailand's attitude to cheating ( and therefore corruption) is dreadful. It stinks. Someone said we get the government we deserve. Well Thailand had better do something about it's attitude to corruption at all levels and it's national pride or this time it won't work either. God I hope they do. I love Thailand. Just fix the damn corruption. Say. " No to corruption. It's not Ok to cheat" & 90% of the problems will self-resolve.

[cnxdefyer]

Thailand at crossroads: Leaving Thaksin behind in his Dubai sandcastle

Kasit Piromya

Special to the Nation

BANGKOK: -- For centuries, Thailand has successfully warded off threats to its sovereignty and territorial integrity as well as to its monarchy. These threats came from afar in the form of Western colonial expansion and ideologies such as Communism, and from within in the form of militarism and security-obsessed nationalism.

Over the past few decades a new challenge to Thailand's cultural integrity has emerged in the form of the dominance of money and business over politics. This new threat has grown into the corporatism of a one-party authoritarianism flying populist colours in a democratic setting and striving by any means to gain electoral majorities.

But since the end of absolute monarchy in 1932, the goal and aspiration of the Thai people has always been to uphold the national ideals of nation, religion and monarchy within a representative democracy. Time and again the Thai people have shown this determination and have been willing to fight for their beliefs and their aspirations with rallies and marches, and even with their lives.

Thais have also become averse to military intervention and coups d'etat, in fact to all abuses of authority by self-interest and money-dominated politics.

Today, the Thai people have finally and firmly rejected the politics of the past, the politics of sweet temptations, of lies and spin, the politics of systemic corruption, the politics of a small clique of the powerful.

The Thai people want to start their national politics anew. They want a politics in which power is shared, participation is more direct, their empowerment is prevalent, and resources and budget are more fairly distributed and balanced. The people now want to take national affairs more firmly into their own hands. They want more mastery over their destinies. They want to see their politicians and bureaucrats serve rather than abusing their power or turning to corruption.

Thailand thus stands at a very important juncture in its modern history. We are at a crossroads, poised to turn away from the old politics towards a politics of transparency, accountability and good governance; a politics of extensive participation and empowerment; a politics under the rule of law with moral and ethical standards as a way of life.

Thaksin with his cohorts and his Thaksinism - a political system of one-party dominance through autocratic authoritarian majority rule - are now things of the past. For them to cling to their presumptuous hierarchy is nothing more than holding on to a failed status quo. Their stubborn self-promotion is reactionary and contrary to the progressive minds and contemporary political aspirations of Thailand. It is anachronistic: out of tune, out of touch and out of place.

Thaksin and his proxy government have lost the trust of the Thai populace. They are now considered illegitimate pretenders to power. They have politely been asked to leave Thailand's political stage.

In their last desperate attempts to continue in power, Thaksin and his proxy regime are cooking up more divisiveness within Thai society. They are falling back on the destructive tactic of promoting regional separation and even secession. This is a resort to treason. It is also belittling the intelligence of Thais and their love for one, unified country - Thailand. This is a shameless act and, indeed, even a stupid one. It also reflects the fact that Thaksin's personal dominance over politics and Thaksinism are over and done with in Thai history. Such desperation implies acknowledgement of defeat. It means the end of the status quo, of vested-interest politics.

Progressive forces are taking over. Thailand is not dithering at the crossroads but has decided determinedly to go the way of open, accountable and participatory politics.

After some 80 years of ups and downs, our democracy is about to come of age. Thailand can soon take pride in becoming a modern society at last. And Thaksin, with his passion for autocracy and authoritarian majority pretensions, can remain in his Dubai sandcastle.

Kasit Piromya is a former foreign minister of Thailand.

-- The Nation 2014-03-19

Wow! This is the best acticle on this topic ever. I hope it is the end and I hope we can move forward as a country.

[cnxdefyer]

Thailand at crossroads: Leaving Thaksin behind in his Dubai sandcastle

Kasit Piromya

Special to the Nation

BANGKOK: -- For centuries, Thailand has successfully warded off threats to its sovereignty and territorial integrity as well as to its monarchy. These threats came from afar in the form of Western colonial expansion and ideologies such as Communism, and from within in the form of militarism and security-obsessed nationalism.

Over the past few decades a new challenge to Thailand's cultural integrity has emerged in the form of the dominance of money and business over politics. This new threat has grown into the corporatism of a one-party authoritarianism flying populist colours in a democratic setting and striving by any means to gain electoral majorities.

But since the end of absolute monarchy in 1932, the goal and aspiration of the Thai people has always been to uphold the national ideals of nation, religion and monarchy within a representative democracy. Time and again the Thai people have shown this determination and have been willing to fight for their beliefs and their aspirations with rallies and marches, and even with their lives.

Thais have also become averse to military intervention and coups d'etat, in fact to all abuses of authority by self-interest and money-dominated politics.

Today, the Thai people have finally and firmly rejected the politics of the past, the politics of sweet temptations, of lies and spin, the politics of systemic corruption, the politics of a small clique of the powerful.

The Thai people want to start their national politics anew. They want a politics in which power is shared, participation is more direct, their empowerment is prevalent, and resources and budget are more fairly distributed and balanced. The people now want to take national affairs more firmly into their own hands. They want more mastery over their destinies. They want to see their politicians and bureaucrats serve rather than abusing their power or turning to corruption.

Thailand thus stands at a very important juncture in its modern history. We are at a crossroads, poised to turn away from the old politics towards a politics of transparency, accountability and good governance; a politics of extensive participation and empowerment; a politics under the rule of law with moral and ethical standards as a way of life.

Thaksin with his cohorts and his Thaksinism - a political system of one-party dominance through autocratic authoritarian majority rule - are now things of the past. For them to cling to their presumptuous hierarchy is nothing more than holding on to a failed status quo. Their stubborn self-promotion is reactionary and contrary to the progressive minds and contemporary political aspirations of Thailand. It is anachronistic: out of tune, out of touch and out of place.

Thaksin and his proxy government have lost the trust of the Thai populace. They are now considered illegitimate pretenders to power. They have politely been asked to leave Thailand's political stage.

In their last desperate attempts to continue in power, Thaksin and his proxy regime are cooking up more divisiveness within Thai society. They are falling back on the destructive tactic of promoting regional separation and even secession. This is a resort to treason. It is also belittling the intelligence of Thais and their love for one, unified country - Thailand. This is a shameless act and, indeed, even a stupid one. It also reflects the fact that Thaksin's personal dominance over politics and Thaksinism are over and done with in Thai history. Such desperation implies acknowledgement of defeat. It means the end of the status quo, of vested-interest politics.

Progressive forces are taking over. Thailand is not dithering at the crossroads but has decided determinedly to go the way of open, accountable and participatory politics.

After some 80 years of ups and downs, our democracy is about to come of age. Thailand can soon take pride in becoming a modern society at last. And Thaksin, with his passion for autocracy and authoritarian majority pretensions, can remain in his Dubai sandcastle.

Kasit Piromya is a former foreign minister of Thailand.

-- The Nation 2014-03-19

Wow! This is the best acticle on this topic ever. I hope it is the end and I hope we can move forward as a country.

[daboyz1]

I have no patience to go through all this anti-democratic stuff, so just let me vent about two quotes that jumped out at me:

>"Thailand at crossroads: Leaving Thaksin behind in his Dubai sandcastle"

How about leaving the coup-makers of 2006 and mostly the same coup-mongers of 2013/14 behind.....Voicing support for coup-mongers and against those with electoral roots is just so much folderol.

And before PAD-Dem's launch into trying to normalize the abnormal judiciary with respect to Thaksin, suffice it to say that only they buy into the program of coupists trying to justify their power grab with a judicial veneer, by demonizing those they coup'ed.

"...a new challenge to Thailand's cultural integrity has emerged in the form of the dominance of money and business over politics."

Nope.....The new dominance that has emerged is the politicization of the masses, and the electoral strength that has accompanied it.

Misleadingly intellectualizing about historical references to money and business over politics, and ignoring the realities of Electoral democracy, is self-serving agenda's of the unelectables....'er anti-democrats.

so what would you suggest thailand does with a government that breaks the law - cheats - lies - steals - ignores the courts - ignores parts of the constitution it doesn't like, tell me how any country deals with this, I'm sorry but IMO the army has saved Thailand from utter destruction many many times, I think a coup is the wrong word to describe what the army has done in recent years - it's more like having an extra arm of the law to step in when it all comes apart - most people associate a coup with a military dictator type of insurrection but in Thailand power is always given back to the people and elections/referendums follow very quickly - what they don't seem to be able to do each time is get a constitution that is rigid enough to avoid the constant abuse - as I've said before we keep seeing the recycle of the same corrupt MP's every 5 years - they should be banned for life, flush the system clean of this scourge.

+1000

[marcusd]

I am afraid it is his belief Thais. Are willing to enforce change. They ate mostly too busy

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[fab4]

why they keep pounding on: never been colonized? remember the japs in WW 2

and thailand was nearly a buffer for english & french imperialists, that fought many wars, on land and sea

Good job Belgium never colonized them, judging on their performance in the Congo.

Thailand evolved its own unique culture, and its language, social, political, economic and educational development has not been shackled or restricted by the imposition of foreign views.

So, what you see is pure Thai. No one else to blame.

Really? You've never heard of Field Marshal Plaek Phibunsongkhram, Prime Minister/Dictator, 1938-44, 1948-57?

[Mrgk]

"Thaksin and his proxy government have lost the trust of the Thai populace. They are now considered illegitimate pretenders to power. They have politely been asked to leave Thailand's political stage."

By whom? By the military? By the PDRC? By the "independent bodies"? By the courts? Because it´s certainly not by the "Thai People".

[Mrgk]

so what would you suggest thailand does with a government that breaks the law - cheats - lies - steals - ignores the courts - ignores parts of the constitution it doesn't like, tell me how any country deals with this

In most civilized nations, those who believe the government to be a bunch of cheating, lying, law-breaking bastards.... wait for it... vote for the opposition. In the elections.

An even more pressing issue though, is what to do when the courts themselves turn the law into a joke.

[ianf]

I have no patience to go through all this anti-democratic stuff, so just let me vent about two quotes that jumped out at me:

>"Thailand at crossroads: Leaving Thaksin behind in his Dubai sandcastle"

How about leaving the coup-makers of 2006 and mostly the same coup-mongers of 2013/14 behind.....Voicing support for coup-mongers and against those with electoral roots is just so much folderol.

And before PAD-Dem's launch into trying to normalize the abnormal judiciary with respect to Thaksin, suffice it to say that only they buy into the program of coupists trying to justify their power grab with a judicial veneer, by demonizing those they coup'ed.

"...a new challenge to Thailand's cultural integrity has emerged in the form of the dominance of money and business over politics."

Nope.....The new dominance that has emerged is the politicization of the masses, and the electoral strength that has accompanied it.

Misleadingly intellectualizing about historical references to money and business over politics, and ignoring the realities of Electoral democracy, is self-serving agenda's of the unelectables....'er anti-democrats.

What, more nonsense? What on earth are coup-makers or coupists? Eh? Explain yourself.

In the most transparent view, the last coup was not a traditional coup d'etat as per Thaksin's mate's model in Cambodia (Hun Sen). The army stepped in to stop Thaksin turning this country into his personal fiefdom. Even a 3-year old can understand this. The military stepped back very quickly. If you want to talk about an 'undemocratic' coup you only have to look at what Pinochet did in Chile in 1976 when he overturned the democratically elected Allende. What you have had here in the Thaksin era is a man obsessed with power and trying every means he can to achieve total power. That includes corrupting the concept of Democracy in the minds of his followers. Go on, ask the average Red what democracy is. You won't get a coherent answer. I've done this a number of times and actually, these people stare back and are unable to answer. They mumble something about elections. Are elections in the themselves democratic? Off course not. Democracy comes from the rule of law which is paramount and the party or grouping that wins overall power are not entitled, under democratic principles, to run roughshod over the law, opposition nor should they use the country's finances to cushion their own bank accounts. What we have seen under Yingluck, or Thaksin before her, is anything but Democratic. So FB, just understand that some of us here who understand this stuff, who have been involved in human rights at an international level, who have opposed regimes of both right and left find your words supremely offensive. Folderol certainly applies to your posts. Mrgk, yet another new poster weighing in here, could well read and inwardly digest my post.

Edited March 23, 2014 by ianf

[larsjohnsson]

Holy Moley!.......Now I've read everything! Sheeshhh........? Progressive forces? Did I miss something taking place in Thailand over the last 4 Months? Could it be that this has-been is implying that Kuhn Suthep and his cohorts are the Progressive Force that will bring the Kingdom to the Crossroads or perhaps the Abyss? If so, why stop there Kuhn Kasit Piromya? Just say he is the NEW Moral Compass of Thailand! A genuine beacon of light in the darkness of Thai Politics. These so called progressive forces must man up and earn that title with a WIN at the ballot box! Let all eligible voters have an unobstructed opportunity to cast their vote in order to decide any future Path for the Kingdom to take.

he is referring to the Thai people in general I don't believe he mentioned Suthep

I believe Thailand has turned a page for the good of the people or could be called a new positive chapter - lets hope so

I also believe that social media has helped considerably - it's not so easy to fool people anymore

We see what Thai people in general belive in, every time they vote

[Publicus]

one of the best and most accurate pieces I ever read - this extract describes PTP perfectly.....

This new threat has grown into the corporatism of a one-party authoritarianism flying populist colours in a democratic setting and striving by any means to gain electoral majorities.

That article is so good I read it twice - first time ever

I see you and the usual suspects adore good fiction, and the OP is great fiction - pulp fiction.

The OP says "progressive forces are taking over" which he conveniently passes up identifying. That's because the OP cannot possibly identify anything progressive on his side of the tracks. I'm pretty sure however he basks in your adulation and joy.

Suthep is "progressive"? Abhisit is progressive? The narrowly based and exclusionary Bangkok middle class are progressive? The military are progressive? The not independent agencies are progressive? The coup written 2007 constitution is progressive?

The OP has declared victory over democracy in Thailand, congratulates his unidentified "progressives" for it and has popped a bottle of champagne - five or six of 'em. The usual suspects are also full of - the bubbly.

Democracy in Retreat: The Revolt of the Middle Class and the Worldwide Decline of Representative Government

Council on Foreign Relations Fellow for Southeast Asia Joshua Kurlantzick identifies forces that threaten democracy and shows that conventional wisdom has blinded world leaders to a real crisis. "Today a constellation of factors, from the rise of China to the lack of economic growth in new democracies to the West's financial crisis, has come together to hinder democracy throughout the developing world," he writes. "Absent radical and unlikely changes in the international system, that combination of antidemocratic factors will have serious staying power."

http://www.cfr.org/democratization/democracy-retreat/p29458

It's an interesting turn of events. The book cited includes discussion of Thailand, focusing on its military mutiny coups d'état and on its judicial coups. The real turn however is that during the 20th century insurgencies fought (largely unsuccessfully) for communism and totalitarianism, but that now in the 21st century, insurgencies fight for democracy, egalitarianism, justice. The instance of Thailand is no different from the current trend.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Publicus