Jatuporn, Redshirts promise uprising against coup, appointed PM

[siampolee]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

Edited March 22, 2014 by siampolee

[mikemac]

Redshirt mouthpiece, undemocratic & crass ? That sounds about right.

[HonestQuietBob]

Flames and sneers aside, if I accept your logic that the party-list for MPs is actually a vote for who should be PM (which I don't), then shouldn't Samak's replacement logically have been whoever was number-2 on PPP's party-list ?

And how to justify MPs who vote for someone from another party, as PM, as often happens with a coalition ?

My point was, and remains, that there is no such thing as a "list for PM", merely a party-list for MPs.

Nobody is claiming that there is a list for PM - there isn't.

ChrisY1 obviously meant that Yingluck was number 1 on the party list and as such the parties nominee for PM and everyone knew that.

Anyone not hell bent on pushing a cause can see what he meant and wouldn't bother dishonestly veering off on a disingenuous tangent, at most they would politely correct him.

This forum is not a place for pedants, there are too many non native English speakers here to be holding everyone to too high a grammatical and spelling standard.

In a parliamentary system, the party with the majority in the lower house (the people's house) elect a PM from within their own ranks. If they so desire the can elect a new PM every week (although this would probably annoy the King as he has to sign off on a new PM).

The OP is claiming that as there are no longer any MP's it is perfectly fine for the senators to select a new PM when YL gets impeached - it's not.

Senators are not lower house MP's and unelected senators are not representative of the people, therefore under normal circumstances they have no right to elect a PM.

The anti-democratic forces have twisted and contorted the system into something unrecognisable to try and illegitimately get their way.

Their actions should be opposed by all right minded and honest individuals.

"Nobody is claiming that there is a list for PM - there isn't."

Thank you for agreeing with the point I made.

Hopefully all "right minded and honest individuals" will also see Jatuporn's threats, promising an uprising, as being equally undemocratic & crass ?

Facts are facts whether I agree or not.

Jutporn and the Reds are going to do what is necessary to defeat an unfair and corrupted system and all those propping it up.

The other sides took this fight to the streets, despite months of admirable restraint, it appears that they too shall have to take to the streets in order to end this nonsense.

[siampolee]

HonestQuitBob post # 123

Jutporn and the Reds are going to do what is necessary to defeat an unfair and corrupted system and all those propping it up.

The other sides took this fight to the streets, despite months of admirable restraint, it appears that they too shall have to take to the streets in order to end this nonsense.

Hurrah.

At last they Jutuporn and the Red Shirts are coming to their senses and are coming too realise that the problem is Thaksin Shinwatra and his cronies

[Bocking]

The Reds wouldn't know Democracy if it bit them in the arse...........hence the headline of this post..........

On the contrary, Every single Red shirt could quite easily give you 6 examples of democracy by citing their last 6 outings at elections.

An uprising against a coup and non-elected government is a pro-democracy action.

Back to school for you sunshine.

Democracy is far greater and deeper than simply 'one man one vote'. I have no doubt that despite vote buying by ALL parties, (though my wife is still waiting for her free cow), PTP in their various guises have clearly won every completed election since 2001. But, the election of MP’s is simply stage one of the democratic process. It’s what happens after the election that matters, what the elected MP’s who form the Government actually do with their power, how they world within the legal and constitutional framework to serve all of the people to the best of their ability, that’s what really defines Democracy.

Ideologically I fully support the principles of the Pheu Thai Party, but, once elected they abandoned the other essential elements of Democracy in favour of self-serving Government. The results of the PTP’s actions is what we have now in Thailand, a political Cluster***K. Their actions have resulted in a reaction that goes well beyond just 'Dems' or 'Yellows'.

The PTP’s abandonment of democracy had nothing to do with ‘Thainess’, as some here have suggested, but had everything to do with personal Greed and Hubris. PTP have defecated where they dine and with the disruptive affect of social media, the majority of voters are better informed than they ever were before.

This is only my personal opinion: Had the February 2^nd elections not been obstructed by the PDRC in their various guises, an action that I wholeheartedly disagreed with, then I’m sure that PTP would have won the election, albeit with a vastly reduced majority. With the various courts now pursuing various prosecutions, the longer the delay before the next general election the worse the results will be for PTP. Support for PTP is slipping, in many areas perhaps silently, and the voices being heard from various stages is only adding to that demise. Again, in my opinion, the PTP’s only saving grace, electorally speaking, is that many former PTP supporters would NEVER vote for Abhasit or The Democrats. That’s not so much that they don’t trust the Democrat Party or disagree with their policies, but more along the lines that a Manchester City fan would never support their arch rivals across the city at Old Trafford.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Bocking

[HonestQuietBob]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

1. Thailands Press Freedom Rankings

Green = Thaksin backed Administration

Red = Non Thaksin Administration

2002 - 65 (Thaksin)

2003 - 82 (Thaksin)

2004 - 59 (Thaksin)

2005 - 107 (The yellow nonsense kicked off about here)

2006 - 122 (coup admin)

2007 - 135 (coup admin)

2008 - 124 (Samak and Somchai and a lot of yellow nonsense)

2009 - 130 (Abhisit)

2010 - 153 (Abhisit)

2011 - 137 (Abhisit)

2012 - 135 (Yingluck)

Pretty clear that non-Thaksin backed administrations reduce freedom of speech to a greater extent than Thaksin backed governments.

Unelected authoritarian regimes don't like their crimes to be talked about.

(my guess is if you muzzle the media corruption is a hell of a lot more lucrative to)

[Bocking]

With regards to 'Press Freedom Rankings' quoted above, I couldn't say if the freedom of the press was better or worse under any administration. However, although I'd like to think that under Thaksin it was better than under a military or appointed government, I fear that the figures used above simply show what happened around the world post 9/11 and reflect the clampdown on freedom in other nations more than any change within Thailand.

[dickyknee]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

1. Thailands Press Freedom Rankings

Green = Thaksin backed Administration

Red = Non Thaksin Administration

2002 - 65 (Thaksin)

2003 - 82 (Thaksin)

2004 - 59 (Thaksin)

2005 - 107 (The yellow nonsense kicked off about here)

2006 - 122 (coup admin)

2007 - 135 (coup admin)

2008 - 124 (Samak and Somchai and a lot of yellow nonsense)

2009 - 130 (Abhisit)

2010 - 153 (Abhisit)

2011 - 137 (Abhisit)

2012 - 135 (Yingluck)

Pretty clear that non-Thaksin backed administrations reduce freedom of speech to a greater extent than Thaksin backed governments.

Unelected authoritarian regimes don't like their crimes to be talked about.

(my guess is if you muzzle the media corruption is a hell of a lot more lucrative to)

you missed 2013.

[khunken]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

1. Thailands Press Freedom Rankings

Green = Thaksin backed Administration

Red = Non Thaksin Administration

2002 - 65 (Thaksin)

2003 - 82 (Thaksin)

2004 - 59 (Thaksin)

2005 - 107 (The yellow nonsense kicked off about here)

2006 - 122 (coup admin)

2007 - 135 (coup admin)

2008 - 124 (Samak and Somchai and a lot of yellow nonsense)

2009 - 130 (Abhisit)

2010 - 153 (Abhisit)

2011 - 137 (Abhisit)

2012 - 135 (Yingluck)

Pretty clear that non-Thaksin backed administrations reduce freedom of speech to a greater extent than Thaksin backed governments.

Unelected authoritarian regimes don't like their crimes to be talked about.

(my guess is if you muzzle the media corruption is a hell of a lot more lucrative to)

It's a pity you can't live up to your name - the honest bit that is.

Press freedom & freedom of speech got steadily worse under Thaksin - so bad that he was admonished by a higher person to stop using the courts to shut people up. Did you make those figures up? No source and additional stupid comments don't actually help.

You should try the transparency figures which has Thailand continuing to drop:

Odd that it was highest in 2006.

It's a pity that the UDD has apparently appointed (why no election?) a mercenary with a very poor violent and dishonest reputation. At least Thida has an ideology albeit a bit extreme. Jatuporn will no doubt welcome the input of Ko Tee into the red shirt version of democracy given his murderous credentials. Kwanchai in Udon will fit in too when he fully recovers and can terrorise any foolish locals who might protest for the other side.

If they attempt another invasion of Bangkok the army may well be forced to take action - possibly of the Seh Daeng sort.

[cnxdefyer]

It's becoming more and more apparent that Jatuporn, Thida, and the UDD are a spent force. After their last rally only drew 6,000 attendees, when it was touted to be 100,000 plus, and their poorly attended 'leaders' meeting (which gloried over the killing of children) it is obvious they no longer have broad support. People are disillusioned with the current government and no longer consider them as representing their interests, as evidenced by the very low turnout in Red districts for the February 2 elections. Jatuporn can shout all he wants but nobody is listening except the news media, those on the payroll, and a hand full of fanatics. All these grand pronouncements he makes and veiled threats are just so much hot air. He is like a barking soi dog; annoying but of no consequence. If it weren't for Dr. Thaksin's continued funding, this organization would have dissipated and vanished already. It only exists now to be used as a stick by Thaksin. So sad that beautiful Thailand is marred my this soi dog's incessant barking.

The acts he is proposing do not require many people. It's sad to use these tactics against other citizens, obviously we cannot depend on the police for protection. People sum up groups and events occurring when actually they should be separated. I believe they're some good red shirt as well as yellow shirts, the question is those supporting their groups, are they really ready to shed blood over a disagreement like this? Are they defending democracy or just one group in power? Can't they find a middle ground? Obviously they can't but doesn't any red shirts wonder why? It's because you're defending one group. That group doesn't want to loose it's power. By standing by agreeing or arguing with that group you're condoning what a small number will do, civil war. What will the death toll be? People screaming "respect my vote", my question is what about the Law. Do we not need to obey the law first? It's a sad day when the world revolves around "I", "ME" or "My". Think about the country first please. I don't see Jatuporn as a soi dog barking. I don't see Thaksin as being out maneuvered, it worries me that the protester think they've won, when it's obvious that the government is setting up to disobey the laws and using innocent people as hostages of what is to come. Already placing the blame if something happens. All for one group that would rather see everything not theirs burned and destroyed. We've all lost our way. Remember our flag and what it stands for. Find a way to make amends, when death strikes near home no amount of remorse will bring those back. I am in awe of those who have already lost loved ones to these conflicts.

[HonestQuietBob]

With regards to 'Press Freedom Rankings' quoted above, I couldn't say if the freedom of the press was better or worse under any administration. However, although I'd like to think that under Thaksin it was better than under a military or appointed government, I fear that the figures used above simply show what happened around the world post 9/11 and reflect the clampdown on freedom in other nations more than any change within Thailand.

The ratings pretty much doubled not in 2001 when 9/11 occurred, but in 2005/2006 when Thaksin was tossed out.

Unless you think Thailand's' media is operating on a 5 year lag to the rest of the world, you're flat out wrong.

[dickyknee]

With regards to 'Press Freedom Rankings' quoted above, I couldn't say if the freedom of the press was better or worse under any administration. However, although I'd like to think that under Thaksin it was better than under a military or appointed government, I fear that the figures used above simply show what happened around the world post 9/11 and reflect the clampdown on freedom in other nations more than any change within Thailand.

The ratings pretty much doubled not in 2001 when 9/11 occurred, but in 2005/2006 when Thaksin was tossed out.

Unless you think Thailand's' media is operating on a 5 year lag to the rest of the world, you're flat out wrong.

what about 2013?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Fryslan boppe]

"Redshirts Promise Uprising Against Coup, Appointed PM"

And a massive rally in Bangkok April 5.

[HonestQuietBob]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

1. Thailands Press Freedom Rankings

Green = Thaksin backed Administration

Red = Non Thaksin Administration

2002 - 65 (Thaksin)

2003 - 82 (Thaksin)

2004 - 59 (Thaksin)

2005 - 107 (The yellow nonsense kicked off about here)

2006 - 122 (coup admin)

2007 - 135 (coup admin)

2008 - 124 (Samak and Somchai and a lot of yellow nonsense)

2009 - 130 (Abhisit)

2010 - 153 (Abhisit)

2011 - 137 (Abhisit)

2012 - 135 (Yingluck)

Pretty clear that non-Thaksin backed administrations reduce freedom of speech to a greater extent than Thaksin backed governments.

Unelected authoritarian regimes don't like their crimes to be talked about.

(my guess is if you muzzle the media corruption is a hell of a lot more lucrative to)

It's a pity you can't live up to your name - the honest bit that is.

Press freedom & freedom of speech got steadily worse under Thaksin - so bad that he was admonished by a higher person to stop using the courts to shut people up. Did you make those figures up? No source and additional stupid comments don't actually help.

You should try the transparency figures which has Thailand continuing to drop:

Odd that it was highest in 2006.

It's a pity that the UDD has apparently appointed (why no election?) a mercenary with a very poor violent and dishonest reputation. At least Thida has an ideology albeit a bit extreme. Jatuporn will no doubt welcome the input of Ko Tee into the red shirt version of democracy given his murderous credentials. Kwanchai in Udon will fit in too when he fully recovers and can terrorise any foolish locals who might protest for the other side.

If they attempt another invasion of Bangkok the army may well be forced to take action - possibly of the Seh Daeng sort.

Where's the huge spike in your graph?

I thought Thailand always had a moderate amount of corruption until Thaksin came along took corruption to a level unimagined by even the most crooked of the old generals and appointed premiers?

Shins this, Shins that.

Why are the years of 2001 - 2005 not fantastically different from the non Thaksin years?

Could it be that the demonisation of Thaksin as some sort of mega corrupt super villain is based upon fallacies and exaggerations from disreputable sources?

Your graph certainly shows this to be the case.

As for the comments on Thaksin being admonished you seem to think support your argument, well, you've strayed into a no go area that cannot be freely debated by those that respect the laws of the land - so I won't touch it.

[HerIndoors]

I do so love the one eyed views of so many expats... as if you can even vote for chrissake... it's their country, they stuffed it up, let them dig their way out of this mess of their own making. Some posters here are as bad as the yellow / red divide. Grow up guys...it's all about who has power when that which cannot be mentioned happens.

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

1. Thailands Press Freedom Rankings

Green = Thaksin backed Administration

Red = Non Thaksin Administration

2002 - 65 (Thaksin)

2003 - 82 (Thaksin)

2004 - 59 (Thaksin)

2005 - 107 (The yellow nonsense kicked off about here)

2006 - 122 (coup admin)

2007 - 135 (coup admin)

2008 - 124 (Samak and Somchai and a lot of yellow nonsense)

2009 - 130 (Abhisit)

2010 - 153 (Abhisit)

2011 - 137 (Abhisit)

2012 - 135 (Yingluck)

Pretty clear that non-Thaksin backed administrations reduce freedom of speech to a greater extent than Thaksin backed governments.

Unelected authoritarian regimes don't like their crimes to be talked about.

(my guess is if you muzzle the media corruption is a hell of a lot more lucrative to)

It's a pity you can't live up to your name - the honest bit that is.

Press freedom & freedom of speech got steadily worse under Thaksin - so bad that he was admonished by a higher person to stop using the courts to shut people up. Did you make those figures up? No source and additional stupid comments don't actually help.

You should try the transparency figures which has Thailand continuing to drop:

Odd that it was highest in 2006.

It's a pity that the UDD has apparently appointed (why no election?) a mercenary with a very poor violent and dishonest reputation. At least Thida has an ideology albeit a bit extreme. Jatuporn will no doubt welcome the input of Ko Tee into the red shirt version of democracy given his murderous credentials. Kwanchai in Udon will fit in too when he fully recovers and can terrorise any foolish locals who might protest for the other side.

If they attempt another invasion of Bangkok the army may well be forced to take action - possibly of the Seh Daeng sort.

Where's the huge spike in your graph?

I thought Thailand always had a moderate amount of corruption until Thaksin came along took corruption to a level unimagined by even the most crooked of the old generals and appointed premiers?

Shins this, Shins that.

Why are the years of 2001 - 2005 not fantastically different from the non Thaksin years?

Could it be that the demonisation of Thaksin as some sort of mega corrupt super villain is based upon fallacies and exaggerations from disreputable sources?

Your graph certainly shows this to be the case.

As for the comments on Thaksin being admonished you seem to think support your argument, well, you've strayed into a no go area that cannot be freely debated by those that respect the laws of the land - so I won't touch it.

"Could it be that the demonisation of Thaksin as some sort of mega corrupt super villain is based upon fallacies and exaggerations from disreputable sources?"

No comment needed.

[winstonc]

Neither do the yellows, So who is left?

at some point you're going to tell us all what a yellow is - right ? is this a footy forum am I in the wrong place

A Yellow shirt is a supporter of the Democrat party, you know , the ones who are always in a minority, never able to gain power legally, never able to win an election. Always upset about it and ready to throw their dummys out of the pram. What they really need to do is to Reform themselves before they consider reforming the country.

you as usual are wrong..yellow shirts are dems utter &lt;deleted&gt; as we all know get your facts right before you even attempt to post....back to your bar boy..

[ginjag]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

1. Thailands Press Freedom Rankings

Green = Thaksin backed Administration

Red = Non Thaksin Administration

2002 - 65 (Thaksin)

2003 - 82 (Thaksin)

2004 - 59 (Thaksin)

2005 - 107 (The yellow nonsense kicked off about here)

2006 - 122 (coup admin)

2007 - 135 (coup admin)

2008 - 124 (Samak and Somchai and a lot of yellow nonsense)

2009 - 130 (Abhisit)

2010 - 153 (Abhisit)

2011 - 137 (Abhisit)

2012 - 135 (Yingluck)

Pretty clear that non-Thaksin backed administrations reduce freedom of speech to a greater extent than Thaksin backed governments.

Unelected authoritarian regimes don't like their crimes to be talked about.

(my guess is if you muzzle the media corruption is a hell of a lot more lucrative to)

It's a pity you can't live up to your name - the honest bit that is.

Press freedom & freedom of speech got steadily worse under Thaksin - so bad that he was admonished by a higher person to stop using the courts to shut people up. Did you make those figures up? No source and additional stupid comments don't actually help.

You should try the transparency figures which has Thailand continuing to drop:

Odd that it was highest in 2006.

It's a pity that the UDD has apparently appointed (why no election?) a mercenary with a very poor violent and dishonest reputation. At least Thida has an ideology albeit a bit extreme. Jatuporn will no doubt welcome the input of Ko Tee into the red shirt version of democracy given his murderous credentials. Kwanchai in Udon will fit in too when he fully recovers and can terrorise any foolish locals who might protest for the other side.

If they attempt another invasion of Bangkok the army may well be forced to take action - possibly of the Seh Daeng sort.

Where's the huge spike in your graph?

I thought Thailand always had a moderate amount of corruption until Thaksin came along took corruption to a level unimagined by even the most crooked of the old generals and appointed premiers?

Shins this, Shins that.

Why are the years of 2001 - 2005 not fantastically different from the non Thaksin years?

Could it be that the demonisation of Thaksin as some sort of mega corrupt super villain is based upon fallacies and exaggerations from disreputable sources?

Your graph certainly shows this to be the case.

As for the comments on Thaksin being admonished you seem to think support your argument, well, you've strayed into a no go area that cannot be freely debated by those that respect the laws of the land - so I won't touch it.

AND for 2013 ??? and the start of 2014, My guess is YOUR figures would be a further drop, exactly opposite to government record corruption, and the missing billion +----the problems NOW bob the problems now -----of course it is Sutheps fault for the missing money and the rest.

[khunken]

"Redshirts Promise Uprising Against Coup, Appointed PM"

And a massive rally in Bangkok April 5.

Well done - first jargon-free post of the day.

However as there has not been a coup or non-Thaksin-appointed PM yet - rather a straw man demo if it takes place.

Given that the last time the red shirts (apart from Ko Tee's little mob) descended on Bangkok in an numbers, they rather met their match in Ramkamheng and Thaksin's call to Kwanchai wasn't quick enough to have more armed 'protection' for them, prompting their rapid return to where they came from.

Unless they have access to considerable Shin resources, they won't have the cannon-fodder to make up the numbers this time. Massive can only refer to their leader's heads.

[BigMountain]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

1. Thailands Press Freedom Rankings

Green = Thaksin backed Administration

Red = Non Thaksin Administration

2002 - 65 (Thaksin)

2003 - 82 (Thaksin)

2004 - 59 (Thaksin)

2005 - 107 (The yellow nonsense kicked off about here)

2006 - 122 (coup admin)

2007 - 135 (coup admin)

2008 - 124 (Samak and Somchai and a lot of yellow nonsense)

2009 - 130 (Abhisit)

2010 - 153 (Abhisit)

2011 - 137 (Abhisit)

2012 - 135 (Yingluck)

Pretty clear that non-Thaksin backed administrations reduce freedom of speech to a greater extent than Thaksin backed governments.

Unelected authoritarian regimes don't like their crimes to be talked about.

(my guess is if you muzzle the media corruption is a hell of a lot more lucrative to)

It's a pity you can't live up to your name - the honest bit that is.

Press freedom & freedom of speech got steadily worse under Thaksin - so bad that he was admonished by a higher person to stop using the courts to shut people up. Did you make those figures up? No source and additional stupid comments don't actually help.

You should try the transparency figures which has Thailand continuing to drop:

Odd that it was highest in 2006.

It's a pity that the UDD has apparently appointed (why no election?) a mercenary with a very poor violent and dishonest reputation. At least Thida has an ideology albeit a bit extreme. Jatuporn will no doubt welcome the input of Ko Tee into the red shirt version of democracy given his murderous credentials. Kwanchai in Udon will fit in too when he fully recovers and can terrorise any foolish locals who might protest for the other side.

If they attempt another invasion of Bangkok the army may well be forced to take action - possibly of the Seh Daeng sort.

Where's the huge spike in your graph?

I thought Thailand always had a moderate amount of corruption until Thaksin came along took corruption to a level unimagined by even the most crooked of the old generals and appointed premiers?

Shins this, Shins that.

Why are the years of 2001 - 2005 not fantastically different from the non Thaksin years?

Could it be that the demonisation of Thaksin as some sort of mega corrupt super villain is based upon fallacies and exaggerations from disreputable sources?

Your graph certainly shows this to be the case.

As for the comments on Thaksin being admonished you seem to think support your argument, well, you've strayed into a no go area that cannot be freely debated by those that respect the laws of the land - so I won't touch it.

"Could it be that the demonisation of Thaksin as some sort of mega corrupt super villain is based upon fallacies and exaggerations from disreputable sources?"

No comment needed.

I am also failing to see the drastic spike in 2006. It all looks equally bad. So yeah, a comment is needed. I don't see how this graph supports anyone's claims that thaksin is any more corrupt than the others

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[dickyknee]

Since he refuses to answer my repeated question, I'll point out the mistake he made.

Bob has actually misquoted the figures. They match the wiki, except the wiki is missing 2011, so his 2011 is actually 2012 and his 2012 is actually 2013.

Press freedom for 2014 stands at 130.

https://rsf.org/index2014/data/index2.csv

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[Publicus]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

It wasn't the Shinawatras or the reds that enacted the most severe censorship laws. It are these most severe censorship laws that define the limited democracy of Thailand.

[khunken]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

1. Thailands Press Freedom Rankings

Green = Thaksin backed Administration

Red = Non Thaksin Administration

2002 - 65 (Thaksin)

2003 - 82 (Thaksin)

2004 - 59 (Thaksin)

2005 - 107 (The yellow nonsense kicked off about here)

2006 - 122 (coup admin)

2007 - 135 (coup admin)

2008 - 124 (Samak and Somchai and a lot of yellow nonsense)

2009 - 130 (Abhisit)

2010 - 153 (Abhisit)

2011 - 137 (Abhisit)

2012 - 135 (Yingluck)

Pretty clear that non-Thaksin backed administrations reduce freedom of speech to a greater extent than Thaksin backed governments.

Unelected authoritarian regimes don't like their crimes to be talked about.

(my guess is if you muzzle the media corruption is a hell of a lot more lucrative to)

It's a pity you can't live up to your name - the honest bit that is.

Press freedom & freedom of speech got steadily worse under Thaksin - so bad that he was admonished by a higher person to stop using the courts to shut people up. Did you make those figures up? No source and additional stupid comments don't actually help.

You should try the transparency figures which has Thailand continuing to drop:

Odd that it was highest in 2006.

It's a pity that the UDD has apparently appointed (why no election?) a mercenary with a very poor violent and dishonest reputation. At least Thida has an ideology albeit a bit extreme. Jatuporn will no doubt welcome the input of Ko Tee into the red shirt version of democracy given his murderous credentials. Kwanchai in Udon will fit in too when he fully recovers and can terrorise any foolish locals who might protest for the other side.

If they attempt another invasion of Bangkok the army may well be forced to take action - possibly of the Seh Daeng sort.

Where's the huge spike in your graph?

I thought Thailand always had a moderate amount of corruption until Thaksin came along took corruption to a level unimagined by even the most crooked of the old generals and appointed premiers?

Shins this, Shins that.

Why are the years of 2001 - 2005 not fantastically different from the non Thaksin years?

Could it be that the demonisation of Thaksin as some sort of mega corrupt super villain is based upon fallacies and exaggerations from disreputable sources?

Your graph certainly shows this to be the case.

As for the comments on Thaksin being admonished you seem to think support your argument, well, you've strayed into a no go area that cannot be freely debated by those that respect the laws of the land - so I won't touch it.

Yet again a less than honest post.

No one said there was a huge spike. It's pretty obvious to anyone that transparency (corruption in other words) has been progressively going downhill since 2001.

Your attempt to defend Thaksin is laughable given the number of serious fraudulent cases outstanding that he ran away from. All you seem to propagate is that he's a victim and all the charges are demonisation - showing abject ignorance (or bias).

AS for the king admonishing Thaksin - that's been openly discussed in the Bangkok Post and Nation on numerous occasions.

[lovetotravel]

Neither do the yellows, So who is left?

who are the yellows?

My Thai wife from Issan was in the protest

and you would have a very sore face if you say to her face she is a Yellow Shirt

They went out of style years ago

This protest was about thai upset "Thai people"

of I see that does not suit your argument

"This protest was about thai upset "Thai people"

This thing is not a "protest"

It is a power-move by unelectables to force their way into governance via non-electoral means.

A power-play exactly like the one in 2006, with many of the same players.

A power-play they are trying to obscure by phony self-righteous and indignant huffing and puffing about Political issues...Issues that in a normal, non-coup-intentioned circumstance, would be 'huffed and puffed' about in Parliament by the Opposition.

Unlike 2006, there is some apprehension I notice...They haven't barged in this time, with all military guns ablaze..They are still trying to make a coup not appear to be a coup, by using their Independent organization and judicial tools..... But this time the political landscape is different.

Their 2006 caper had the unintended consequence of spawning a huge uprising of a Pro-Democracy Movement, which has used the intervening period to politicize millions. They are walking gingerly to a confrontation with this Movement but somewhat concerned about the consequences.

We will soon see if they take the plunge, Pro-democracy Movement be damned.

methinks you forgot what started these grass root protests. An attempt by the PM to ram through an amnesty bill for her brother and the bill to change how the senate is elected. Do some research.

[khunken]

One cannot cease to be amazed at the comments of the Shinwatra clan and Red Shirt supporters. We can all clearly see that the political dogma of both the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirt leaders is founded upon the total stifling and oppression of free speech and that which currently passes for democracy here in Thailand.

Rabid screaming and rants concerning the actions of the P.R.D.C. which have and are even now far more peaceful, less destructive and far less disruptive than the action we witnessed and indeed suffered from during the 2010 Red Shirts Shinwatra sponsored attempt to overthrow a government and replace it with a known criminal administered administration which of course we later saw assume power to the detriment of Thailand and its peoples.

Can any of these supporters really in what may pass for their minds actually believe that Thaksin, Jutuporn, Thida, Ko-Tee etc are benevolent political leaders with only the best interest of Thailand and its people at heart?

Going by the yardstick the supporters of the aforementioned group employ we can but only assume that Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler and Ghengis Khan to name but a few were indeed very misunderstood and historically maligned concerning their merciful acts and deeds.

It would certainly seem as if those current supporters and proponents of their proposed actions of the Shinwatra clan and the Red Shirts have learnt nothing from history.

It wasn't the Shinawatras or the reds that enacted the most severe censorship laws. It are these most severe censorship laws that define the limited democracy of Thailand.

I don't think he said that they did.

The most severe censorship law is the Lese Majeste law which has been around for donkey's years. No government, Thaksin's, Abhisit's, Banharn's or Chavalit's (to mention the most recent) have had the guts to change it. However it doesn't 'define' democracy - it's just one of the many deficiencies in democracy here, the worst being a lack of the rule of law.

[Wombat6]

The question now, is Jatuporn inciting violence, if so, he should be charged , excellent statesmen these people , they sure know how to address the people and the problems.

If you charged Jutaporn on those grounds, you would have to shoot Suthep for what he has done to the nation.

Sounds like a fair deal, where do we sign up?

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What a foolish remark.....I suggest you read what you write before posting on this forum

[Fryslan boppe]

Neither do the yellows, So who is left?

who are the yellows?

My Thai wife from Issan was in the protest

and you would have a very sore face if you say to her face she is a Yellow Shirt

They went out of style years ago

This protest was about thai upset "Thai people"

of I see that does not suit your argument

"This protest was about thai upset "Thai people"

This thing is not a "protest"

It is a power-move by unelectables to force their way into governance via non-electoral means.

A power-play exactly like the one in 2006, with many of the same players.

A power-play they are trying to obscure by phony self-righteous and indignant huffing and puffing about Political issues...Issues that in a normal, non-coup-intentioned circumstance, would be 'huffed and puffed' about in Parliament by the Opposition.

Unlike 2006, there is some apprehension I notice...They haven't barged in this time, with all military guns ablaze..They are still trying to make a coup not appear to be a coup, by using their Independent organization and judicial tools..... But this time the political landscape is different.

Their 2006 caper had the unintended consequence of spawning a huge uprising of a Pro-Democracy Movement, which has used the intervening period to politicize millions. They are walking gingerly to a confrontation with this Movement but somewhat concerned about the consequences.

We will soon see if they take the plunge, Pro-democracy Movement be damned.

methinks you forgot what started these grass root protests. An attempt by the PM to ram through an amnesty bill for her brother and the bill to change how the senate is elected. Do some research.

"methinks you forgot what started these grass root protests. An attempt by the PM to ram through an amnesty bill........ Do some research."

One must be aware that the coup-mongers need to hide their true intentions...They could not come out and shout-from-the-rooftops:

"we are tired of being a minority both electorally and in Parliament. We will not adapt ourselves to the point of being electorally competitive, because we know that we are a political-gift to Thailand as is. The voters are just too dumb to understand that. Instead we will conduct another non-electoral power-grab as we did in 2006, using all the tools at our disposal. That being street stuff plus calling on our friends in so-called independent organizations and the judiciary to assist us. We hope to incite military assistance also with explosions all over the place, demonstrating maximum public disorder.

We will couch these intentions under cover of "political issues" so we will be seen as righteously concerned....We will start with the amnesty thing, and if that doesn't work, we will conjure up and magnify other issues.

There is nothing grass-roots about that, and has everything to do with disgruntled arrogant unelectables deciding to ram their way into power, elections be damned.

If anyone thinks the amnesty thing was a trigger for the coup-mongers, look no further than their 'full speed ahead" reaction, even after it was withdrawn. I'm sure withdrawing of the amnesty thing dissapointed them...All of a sudden, they needed to move to other issues as cover.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Fryslan boppe

[pmugghc]

I do so love the one eyed views of so many expats... as if you can even vote for chrissake... it's their country, they stuffed it up, let them dig their way out of this mess of their own making. Some posters here are as bad as the yellow / red divide. Grow up guys...it's all about who has power when that which cannot be mentioned happens.

Some of us have families here, with children. Isn't it normal to worry about where your children should live? I've made my decision.

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[HonestQuietBob]

Yet again a less than honest post.

No one said there was a huge spike. It's pretty obvious to anyone that transparency (corruption in other words) has been progressively going downhill since 2001.

Your attempt to defend Thaksin is laughable given the number of serious fraudulent cases outstanding that he ran away from. All you seem to propagate is that he's a victim and all the charges are demonisation - showing abject ignorance (or bias).

AS for the king admonishing Thaksin - that's been openly discussed in the Bangkok Post and Nation on numerous occasions.

The point is that Thaksin is no better and no worse than what Thailand has experienced throughout its sordid and corrupt history.

The anti democracy movement makes Thaksin out to be extraordinarily over the top when it comes to corruption when he plainly is not.

Every international rating, ranking, poll, survey, investigation or report is identical in their lack of extreme aberrations in whatever metric they're using indicating Thaksins' is guilty of a monstrous, unheard of, level of corruption.

When it comes to corruption he is the equal of those opposed to him, no more and no less.

Take away the Thaksin is super corrupt argument from the anti democrats and what have they got left to justify their actions.

Nothing.

Thailand has had 18 coups, do a little research and you will see the same two false justifications given for just about all of them.

Corruption and a threat to the monarchy.

The Thais masses aren't falling for the same claptrap again, the jig is up.

Tell me, if Thaksin is in fact equally or less corrupt than what preceded him and those who currently oppose him, what justification is their for this ongoing attempted coup.

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/thailand

As for the other bit, the admonishing, I'm not denying it occurred because it did. I am simply stating that no robust discussion or debate can take place on such a subject matter. Which is unfortunate, but it's the law, so I obey.

Edited March 22, 2014 by HonestQuietBob

[pmugghc]

Yet again a less than honest post.

No one said there was a huge spike. It's pretty obvious to anyone that transparency (corruption in other words) has been progressively going downhill since 2001.

Your attempt to defend Thaksin is laughable given the number of serious fraudulent cases outstanding that he ran away from. All you seem to propagate is that he's a victim and all the charges are demonisation - showing abject ignorance (or bias).

AS for the king admonishing Thaksin - that's been openly discussed in the Bangkok Post and Nation on numerous occasions.

The point is that Thaksin is no better and no worse than what Thailand has experienced throughout its sordid and corrupt history.

The anti democracy movement makes Thaksin out to be extraordinarily over the top when it comes to corruption when he plainly is not.

Every international rating, ranking, poll, survey, investigation or report is identical in their lack of extreme aberrations in whatever metric they're using indicating Thaksins' is guilty of a monstrous, unheard of, level of corruption.

When it comes to corruption he is the equal of those opposed to him, no more and no less.

Take away the Thaksin is super corrupt argument from the anti democrats and what have they got left to justify their actions.

Nothing.

Thailand has had 18 coups, do a little research and you will see the same two false justifications given for just about all of them.

Corruption and a threat to the monarchy.

The Thais masses aren't falling for the same claptrap again, the jig is up.

Tell me, if Thaksin is in fact equally or less corrupt than what preceded him and those who currently oppose him, what justification is their for this ongoing attempted coup.

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/thailand

As for the other bit, the admonishing, I'm not denying it occurred because it did. I am simply stating that no robust discussion or debate can take place on such a subject matter. Which is unfortunate, but it's the law, so I obey.

I don't have any statistics, but many business people are complaining the corruption has gotten worse, now the rate is some 30%+ on government contracts. Other things: the populist policies (rice scheme, first car program etc) and the aborted 2TB infrastructure loan is putting enormous burdens on the Thai economy.

Yes, there was corruption and mismanagement before, but it seems it's been taken to a new level.

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