Ranong: Portuguese cannon smashed to build Buddha figure

[Mosha]

However, when the police scaled the scraps, the total weight of the smashed cannon only added up to 399 kilograms, causing the police to suspect that some pieces had been stolen or withheld by temple staff.

They didn't search their Louis Vuitton bags or the Bentley parked out front?

More likely to be a Merc. Never seen a Bentley in my 10 years in Ranong.

[Yunla]

Sorry I would disagree Soutpeel that something can't be art if it has a function other than being art.

A favourite saying from an architect that i admire, Frank Lloyd Wright said "Form plus Function equals Beauty "

This is my "guiding light" so as to speak when i am doing a design.

So under your definition pottery or glass or architecture or furniture or a garden or just plain good design will never reach the state of being art .

You are totally right, in my humble opinion.

Also some mathematicians and scientists have long claimed that some advanced equations are beautiful art, and some endlessly self-propelling scientific processes are so beautiful they can also be called art.

Also being a functional object does not stop something being beautiful and aesthetically pleasing to a person. Industrial machinery, rusty old tugboats, old locomotives etc. have form, structure and meaning which can make them beautiful in some people's eyes. The things are no less valid than some paint splashed on a piece of paper.

And building a cannon is an artform too, if handmade of course. "There's an art to it", the phrase meaning you have to do something right, to produce the desired result. And something made by our ancestors should be admired and treated as part of human cultures gone by, cultures that did the legwork to allow us to sit here with our computers and aircon etc. Come to think of it, my aircon is soon old enough to be art too.

[takkatan in the land]

everywhere in the world simple minds cannot appreciate what art is, yes antique weapons are art too

but in thailand the only art it´s appreciate it´s thai art, they are absolutely unconcerned about any other thing not thai

Otherwise I also think those monks broke the cannon in pieces because they were planing to sell the bronze

Then when the police caught them probably they or the police came with the ridiculous excuse of building a monk statue

<deleted> morons

[wjhall]

No, not an antique

Of course it is an antique!!!

[MGP]

I have no praise for this act, for two reasons.

Number one is that Buddha himself opposed idolatry and rejected the whole concept of statues and other images in the spiritual journey. Essentially he believed they were the opposite of his teachings, which were about the internal voyage and the acts of compassion and balance that you projected outwards to the world, a world in which the trees rocks and birds are as much "you" as the meat and bone your soul carries around. So basically the Buddha would reject all the images of himself, including the one proposed in the OP.

Secondly and obviously, it is utterly shameful to destroy art of any form, especially older pieces. Very sad to see.

You consider a canon to be art?

Is this art?

No, it is design.

no its a cannon, a weapon..

if we consider this art, then we could also consider an ICBM or an AK-47 "art"

I remember reading something one time which said something cant be "art" if it has a function other than being "art"..

therefore as this has another function, its a cannon..it cant be art....its a pretty cannon..

Cannons can be much more than pretty.

Edited March 23, 2014 by MGP

[John1012]

There is so much corruption and law breaking in Thailand, why is so much energy and time being wasted on a 500 year old cannon. How many of these old weapons exist, only this one? There is far too much time, money and effort wasted on preserving antiquities, of which there are multiple occurrences. If this was the only example, there would be justification in the outrage shown by TV pundits, but is it the only one? Get a life, help some poor person or animal. Don't waste your time on some old object that was being converted to a new object that would provide some comfort to people who practice Buddhism..

[zydeco]

There is so much corruption and law breaking in Thailand, why is so much energy and time being wasted on a 500 year old cannon. How many of these old weapons exist, only this one? There is far too much time, money and effort wasted on preserving antiquities, of which there are multiple occurrences. If this was the only example, there would be justification in the outrage shown by TV pundits, but is it the only one? Get a life, help some poor person or animal. Don't waste your time on some old object that was being converted to a new object that would provide some comfort to people who practice Buddhism..

Okay, let's start with bulldozing all those "extra" temples at Ayutthaya. Keeping one ought to be sufficient. Turn the rest into cheap condos for the masses and animal hospitals. How dainty.

[Soutpeel]

no its a cannon, a weapon..

if we consider this art, then we could also consider an ICBM or an AK-47 "art"

I remember reading something one time which said something cant be "art" if it has a function other than being "art"..

therefore as this has another function, its a cannon..it cant be art....its a pretty cannon..

Sorry I would disagree Soutpeel that something can't be art if it has a function other than being art.

A favourite saying from an architect that i admire, Frank Lloyd Wright said "Form plus Function equals Beauty "

This is my "guiding light" so as to speak when i am doing a design.

So under your definition pottery or glass or architecture or furniture or a garden or just plain good design will never reach the state of being art .

I also admire FLW's architecture and have actually visited Falling Water, but actually the original quote form follows function was Louis Sullivan in the 1800's not FLW, but this is by the by, but lets go with your quote

"Form plus Function equals Beauty.....notice it says "beauty" not "art" and I did say it was a pretty cannon...

This argument is simlilar to asking the question are certain "cars" be works of art ?....referencing a Top Gear episode, not to get into other JC debate on TV, but in one of the episodes this question was debated by a panel various art experts and the believe the conclusion was a car cannot be a work of art, irrespective of how "beautiful" it is.

Under the definition I referred to in my first post, a painting on the wall or a sculpture, serve no other purpose than to be art, can considered art, but a pretty cannon or beautiful car cannot be art because they have a function other than being art, this is not my defintion, but I found this defintion very interesting non the less...

One suspects the debate around "what is art ?" has been around since man kind first walked this planet and somehow dont think TV "finest" will bring this debate to conclusion...

To me personally...art is whatever someone believes to be art, IMHO, do I believe a bronze cannon is a work of art ?...No simply because the reason for the creation of the cannon was to shoot a cannon ball, to destroy things and possibly kill people, irrespective of how pretty it is, its primary function is a weapon of war..

Anyway..That concludes Souties philosophical post for day and normal service of being sarcastic and talking the p*ss now resumes..

[The Deerhunter]

the cannon was made out of bronze or copper(look at the color in the picture)

market price today is about 53 milj bht if pure copper ,witch i doubt,prob it's mixed with tin (making it bronse) but still worth some money.

They planned to sell it(that's why it is cut in so many pieces,if it had to be melted you did not have to chop it up in so many pieces) and sold already 38 kg,the rest had to be sold slowly because

nobody wanted to burn his fingers on a large quantity .

The police were thinking the same ,they start immediately weighing and counting !("sh$t ,the monks were more quick than them,lol)

Copper loves copper?

My wife calls our cat "Monk" because he is so good at stealing food from the kitchen table. She say's that as religious counselors they aren't much good but as businessmen they are unbeatable.

If you plan to move to Malaysia or Indonesia at any stage, remember to tell her not to call it Mohammed

[The Deerhunter]

However, when the police scaled the scraps, the total weight of the smashed cannon only added up to 399 kilograms, causing the police to suspect that some pieces had been stolen or withheld by temple staff.

They didn't search their Louis Vuitton bags or the Bentley parked out front?

More likely to be a Merc. Never seen a Bentley in my 10 years in Ranong.

Not even a pink one? I am sure he had a specific Bentley in mind. (Chalerm's one in case you did not know.)

[lotus260]

Oh sure, some will say, but we must respect the ways of Thailand, but it goes both ways. (quote from Geriatrickid)

It is a pretty much one way street here. The Thai way or the Highway.

Just the way it is...

But isn't that what Portuguese did to the rest of the world when they found 2000 year old artifacts at that time?

Is it now a crime when the rest of the world learning from Portuguese do the same to a 500 old instrument which was build to destroy?

Edited March 23, 2014 by lotus260

[Basil B]

The thing is if the cannon had been sold they could have been able to buy a lot more than 450Kg of brass with the proceeds

[Dumu Ali]

WOW Thai monks flying jets , doing the sodomy, doing child sex, dealing drugs and now smashing history Buddha would weep if he saw these fake Thai monks

[SheungWan]

no its a cannon, a weapon..

if we consider this art, then we could also consider an ICBM or an AK-47 "art"

I remember reading something one time which said something cant be "art" if it has a function other than being "art"..

therefore as this has another function, its a cannon..it cant be art....its a pretty cannon..

Sorry I would disagree Soutpeel that something can't be art if it has a function other than being art.

A favourite saying from an architect that i admire, Frank Lloyd Wright said "Form plus Function equals Beauty "

This is my "guiding light" so as to speak when i am doing a design.

So under your definition pottery or glass or architecture or furniture or a garden or just plain good design will never reach the state of being art .

I also admire FLW's architecture and have actually visited Falling Water, but actually the original quote form follows function was Louis Sullivan in the 1800's not FLW, but this is by the by, but lets go with your quote

"Form plus Function equals Beauty.....notice it says "beauty" not "art" and I did say it was a pretty cannon...

This argument is simlilar to asking the question are certain "cars" be works of art ?....referencing a Top Gear episode, not to get into other JC debate on TV, but in one of the episodes this question was debated by a panel various art experts and the believe the conclusion was a car cannot be a work of art, irrespective of how "beautiful" it is.

Under the definition I referred to in my first post, a painting on the wall or a sculpture, serve no other purpose than to be art, can considered art, but a pretty cannon or beautiful car cannot be art because they have a function other than being art, this is not my defintion, but I found this defintion very interesting non the less...

One suspects the debate around "what is art ?" has been around since man kind first walked this planet and somehow dont think TV "finest" will bring this debate to conclusion...

To me personally...art is whatever someone believes to be art, IMHO, do I believe a bronze cannon is a work of art ?...No simply because the reason for the creation of the cannon was to shoot a cannon ball, to destroy things and possibly kill people, irrespective of how pretty it is, its primary function is a weapon of war..

Anyway..That concludes Souties philosophical post for day and normal service of being sarcastic and talking the p*ss now resumes..

I will say it again, the designs on the 3 images of the cannon above have nothing to do with its essential function of firing cannons and if you removed the dragon from the cannon in the centre picture who would deny it was a piece of art? So it is art off the cannon and not on the cannon? Now lets talk about cars. The old 1950s Cadillacs with the amazing fins? Yes, they're art now and quite rightly so. I do not subscribe to the subjectivist view that anything can be considered art (don't start me off on Tracey Emin's bed), but industrial heritage can be. Those monks weren't trying to emulate something the Portugese did a few hundred years ago. What a bogus suggestion. They just saw scrap metal and money. And as for art not relating to form and function have a look at the works of Jean Tingeuly

http://www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=oPzsmzb4bqU

Edited March 23, 2014 by SheungWan

[Credo]

Did it not occur to these people, who should have some form of education, that the whole might be greater than the sum of the parts?

[SheungWan]

Did it not occur to these people, who should have some form of education, that the whole might be greater than the sum of the parts?

Breaking it down and melting it enables monies to be distributed amongst interested parties. If sold as an integral part, then less likely that monies (even if greater) would be so easily distributed. Responsibility to reputation, the temple, artistic heritage, all binned for the returns of a scrap metal merchant. So much for holy orders.

[Credo]

Money is easier to distribute than pieces of a cannon. Do you think either method of distribution will be above board?

[bulekee]

Disregarding all the comments on this subject,why do we bother trying to educate!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thai's about anything,it is not in their genes.The only concept they have about history is what happened yesterday.Before I get lambasted,I have lived here 12 years,have a Thai family and have worked in Thai schools for 7 years.Just to nip the adverse comments in the bud,I am financially self sufficient and came here on a retirement visa.Glad to hear if you can pick holes in this.

[Soutpeel]

Disregarding all the comments on this subject,why do we bother trying to educate!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thai's about anything,it is not in their genes.The only concept they have about history is what happened yesterday.Before I get lambasted,I have lived here 12 years,have a Thai family and have worked in Thai schools for 7 years.Just to nip the adverse comments in the bud,I am financially self sufficient and came here on a retirement visa.Glad to hear if you can pick holes in this.

WOW so much anger, I actually feel sorry for your students, but guess it begs the question why exactly are you teaching then ?

[JesseFrank]

Disregarding all the comments on this subject,why do we bother trying to educate!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thai's about anything,it is not in their genes.The only concept they have about history is what happened yesterday.Before I get lambasted,I have lived here 12 years,have a Thai family and have worked in Thai schools for 7 years.Just to nip the adverse comments in the bud,I am financially self sufficient and came here on a retirement visa.Glad to hear if you can pick holes in this.

Thais understanding of history is at lunchtime still know what they had for breakfast, and the future means dreaming about what they gonna have for dinner.

[kimamey]

... it is utterly shameful to destroy art of any form, especially older pieces. Very sad to see.

it was an antique cannon- not a piece of art..

No, not an antique, but an important part of history. Some Thais seem oblivious to the value and richness of history, particularly if it is not "Thai".

Oh sure, some will say, but we must respect the ways of Thailand, but it goes both ways.

When the Taliban blew up the ancient Buddhas of Afghanistan, the western world rushed in to try and salvage the damage and preserve the history.

And what did these Buddhists do? I doubt they did anything.

What this temple has done and what its abbot permitted was shameful and contrary to all that they espouse.

If these folks wish to build idols and worship before them, that is their personal right. However, it is not their right to seize and destroy an historical artifact that serves to provide a touchstone of Thailand's history. It would have done society more good to have the cannon been on display than to cast another bust of Buddha. How many idols do they need to be holy?

How many idols do they need to be holy?

None.

I'm sure all these Buddha statues and a lot of the additions to temples that I see are acts of vanity. Just showing that theirs is bigger. Very little to do with Buddha and a lot to do with monetisation, power and elitism.

[kimamey]

I have no praise for this act, for two reasons.

Number one is that Buddha himself opposed idolatry and rejected the whole concept of statues and other images in the spiritual journey. Essentially he believed they were the opposite of his teachings, which were about the internal voyage and the acts of compassion and balance that you projected outwards to the world, a world in which the trees rocks and birds are as much "you" as the meat and bone your soul carries around. So basically the Buddha would reject all the images of himself, including the one proposed in the OP.

Secondly and obviously, it is utterly shameful to destroy art of any form, especially older pieces. Very sad to see.

You consider a canon to be art?

Is this art?

No, it is design.

And design can be art. Even if you think it isn't it's still history.

[cooked]

People seem to be confusing nice pictures (probably excluding modern art on their way) with art. The whole art scene these days seems to be pretty perverse, the only art involved is being able to persuade people that your junk is art. I don't know exactly when art as it is understood today, separated itself from artisanship, probably when the renaissance came along. In the 15th century artisans made functional artefacts. A weapon of war for example, refined and improved over many years, was an efficient, but also pleasing to the eye, object. The renaissance put paid to that with all sorts of weird stuff that would break your wrist before you broke your opponent's skull.

If we had the money, and the technology, to design and build buildings according to the strict requirements of engineering know how, many of the concrete monstrosities that have been inflicted on us, willy bloody nilly since the second world war, would have been spared us.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter whether anyone thinks that this cannon is a work of art or not, the fact is that artisans accrued knowledge and experience, laboured hard to make this object, and to put it bluntly, it would have sold on Ebay for a lot more than its scrap value. A lot lot more.

[Bkkbound]

They have the same floor tiles as me...

[lucjoker]

the cannon was made out of bronze or copper(look at the color in the picture)

market price today is about 53 milj bht if pure copper ,witch i doubt,prob it's mixed with tin (making it bronse) but still worth some money.

They planned to sell it(that's why it is cut in so many pieces,if it had to be melted you did not have to chop it up in so many pieces) and sold already 38 kg,the rest had to be sold slowly because

nobody wanted to burn his fingers on a large quantity .

The police were thinking the same ,they start immediately weighing and counting !("sh$t ,the monks were more quick than them,lol)

Copper loves copper?

"market price today is about 53 milj bht if pure copper"

Because of diminishing market demand for Brass Ingot Alloy C85400, prices will no longer be published. Prices for other Brass/Bronze Alloys reflect the market for the reported date and will only be updated when sufficient and reliable data is available.

http://www.metalprices.com/metal/brass

Brass (Plumbing, Pipe) $1.60 /lb.

Bronze $1.80 /lb.

Brass Shells $1.45 /lb.

Brass Water Meter $1.10 /lb.

Clean Brass Radiators $1.40 /lb.

Insulated Copper Wire (Cat 5/6) $0.85 /lb.

http://rockawayrecycling.com/scrap_news/current-price-of-scrap-copper/

It seems people will write anything on an anonymous forum.

this is written to give the "control-freaks " some work,they see a number and quickly search the internet to verify the numbers ,

I have to do this more,lol

btw you forgot to mention the copper price in your list?

Check it !

[maxtwo]

If some famous artist had cut up the cannon.It would now be modern art and been worth millions.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Prbkk]

Edina Monsoon makes a more credible Buddhist than some of these posers and ratbags. Throw them in jail

[stegee]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

... it is utterly shameful to destroy art of any form, especially older pieces. Very sad to see.

it was an antique cannon- not a piece of art..

WIKI: "Art is a diverse range of human activities and the products of those activities; this article focuses primarily on the visual arts, which includes the creation of images or objects in fields including painting, sculpture, printmaking, photography, and other visual media. Architecture is often included as one of the visual arts....."

it was a big old gun.. not a piece of art.. something designed to kill people.. yes-it may have had 'aesthetic design value' and/or 'historical significance' but NO-it was not art.. it was a big old gun!!