cars with LPG

[WarpSpeed]

when the timing is adjusted to the lower octane LPG,

Please explain why LPG octane is lower than petrol/gasoline. Everywhere I look says it is higher.

Racing fuels, avgas, LPG and alcohol fuels such as methanol may have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher.

Misprint, reading it in context shows I meant higher,

Had to run the highest grade, non-gasohol petrol this brings your octane rating closer to LPG.

. Thinking one thing, typing another, happens often when the children are loose.

As Cheeryble posted though with a lower compression engine though, higher octane doesn't necessarily mean more power, in fact it doesn't in this case my SEAT had better performance all around with petrol except cost per mile/km. The SEAT had a 10:1 compression ratio so a good match with LP.

Edited March 30, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[seedy]

Just got back from a trip to Chiang Rai. Mostly mountain driving. Did a tune before I left, changed a few things.

LPG mileage increased by 30% - got 7.8l / 100 km.

Expect even greater savings on the superslab.

[kevvy]

Got my car fixed yesterday .I forgot to tell members that we went to Toyota and asked them the problem first , they came back with replacement of all the valves and they would have the car for 3 days and a cost of 32000 baht!! Our gas mechanic gave us a number in Angsila chon buri . He said come back in 34 hours and will be fixed . Went went back and he showed me what he fixed , 1 exhaust valve was damaged .The car runs great again ..Cost was ....1000baht!! I tried to give in more but refused to take it . He told me about the wind in my gearbox which I new about and he will put in a change over one for 9000 baht.. His yard was a typical junk yard , had motors everywhere and old cars. He had about 30 cars to fix and a staff of 10.He told my wife in the next yard was all the cars from service centers he fixes for them as they cannot do it .I have never seen a man as honest as this in my life . I would have paid him whatever he ask a long as it was below Toyota price.Oh , Toyota told my wife the had to send the car outside to be fixed . .As you can see the pics , a real junkyard to some , a treasure chest to others.

kevvy

[cheeryble]

Just got back from a trip to Chiang Rai. Mostly mountain driving. Did a tune before I left, changed a few things.

LPG mileage increased by 30% - got 7.8l / 100 km.

Expect even greater savings on the superslab.

Seedy what the hell you driving and how did you tine it up?

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[WarpSpeed]

Got my car fixed yesterday .I forgot to tell members that we went to Toyota and asked them the problem first , they came back with replacement of all the valves and they would have the car for 3 days and a cost of 32000 baht!! Our gas mechanic gave us a number in Angsila chon buri . He said come back in 34 hours and will be fixed . Went went back and he showed me what he fixed , 1 exhaust valve was damaged .The car runs great again ..Cost was ....1000baht!! I tried to give in more but refused to take it . He told me about the wind in my gearbox which I new about and he will put in a change over one for 9000 baht.. His yard was a typical junk yard , had motors everywhere and old cars. He had about 30 cars to fix and a staff of 10.He told my wife in the next yard was all the cars from service centers he fixes for them as they cannot do it .I have never seen a man as honest as this in my life . I would have paid him whatever he ask a long as it was below Toyota price.Oh , Toyota told my wife the had to send the car outside to be fixed . .As you can see the pics , a real junkyard to some , a treasure chest to others.

kevvy

I might only say this, what did he do versus what Toyota was going to do? Sometimes too cheap is just that and you get what you pay for, I'd very dubious for only 1000b that job is, should be much more complicated and costly, did he replace the head gasket? Watch for overheating if not and possible high water usage, water in oil, vice versa, also be mindful of water bubbling up in your catch can, etc. If he only replaced a valve and didn't do the rest properly, good cleaning, plus seats seals etc. you may be doing this again very soon or even replacing an engine. Hard to know without a full description and possibly even some jpegs.

[cheeryble]

Out of interest Kevvy what were the symptoms that a single valve caused?

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Edited April 1, 2014 by cheeryble

[seedy]

Seedy what the hell you driving and how did you tine it up?

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2001 Nissan NV. 1.6liter 5 speed manual. No power queen, foot to the floor uphill.

Bumped timing 2 degrees, new plugs, wires, cap, rotor. Still looking for the ignition coil, only manual I have is in Spanish !! Think it must be in the ECU 'cause it sure ain't under the hood !!

[cheeryble]

You got to Chiangrai for about 1.1 baht per litre and I pay about 3 and 1/2 baht/litre and you can no ignition coil.

Could there be a little nuclear reactor under there?

ps what's power queen and why foot to floor is that to keep things running ok with the advanced timings ps what does advancing timing do to temperature.....doesn't it raise it?

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[seedy]

Power Queen - slang for an engine with not too much horsepower.

Foot to the floor - because of the lack of power you drive with wide open throttle, push the throttle fully so that it is on the floor I.e. full throttle.

Advanced timing starts the combustion event sooner. If too much advanced it can cause hard starting and cause temps to rise. I think it was not advanced enough before, so bumped it up I.e. advanced the timing 2 degrees.

N American slang !!!

[Ace of Pop]

When they first came out years ago the Twin Cam engine blew most everyday rides away,a great Fun Ride. Gearbox was a bit grumpy i recall.

[cheeryble]

I'm gonna convert the Vitara as soon as I have time Seedy but afraid of anything that'll raise temperatures so think I'm gonna hold on the timing.

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[seedy]

I'm gonna convert the Vitara as soon as I have time Seedy but afraid of anything that'll raise temperatures so think I'm gonna hold on the timing.

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If your ride has an ecu it will remove timing as required, within a narrow set of parameters.

You can hear it usually - sounds like a rattle under large throttle openings

[seedy]

When they first came out years ago the Twin Cam engine blew most everyday rides away,a great Fun Ride. Gearbox was a bit grumpy i recall.

Does not shift the greatest, true.

Got a great deal - one owner, 150k, not a mark on it.

Small, so good in town. Quite happy.

[cheeryble]

I'm gonna convert the Vitara as soon as I have time Seedy but afraid of anything that'll raise temperatures so think I'm gonna hold on the timing.

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If your ride has an ecu it will remove timing as required, within a narrow set of parameters.

You can hear it usually - sounds like a rattle under large throttle openings

I'm sorry I don't understand about the ecu will remove timing......if I change to LPG?

I understand a rattling sound is pinking.

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[seedy]

The ECU is the 'black box'. It controls the engine operation.

On newer cars the engine is equipped with a knock sensor, which listens for the sound of preignition. On hearing this it will decrease the amount of engine advance timing until it is no longer heard.

Info from the O2 sensor - oxygen sensor - is used to adjust fuel to the injectors, along with info from the mass airflow sensor and throttle position sensor.

The engine is unaware of what fuel you are using, the same ecu is used for both fuels. Addition of LPG comes with a smaller ECU to control operation of the LPG system, but all major engine control functions are still taken care of by the main gasoline ECU.

My style is the old single point of entry LPG, where the gas is introduced into the air intake ahead of the mass airflow sensor and throttle body.

Newer model are multipoint, where each cylinder of the engine gets a LPG fuel injector separate from the gasoline fuel injector.

Last prices I heard for a complete new system, including tank and installation, is about 35k baht.

Because I already have a tank and fuel lines, I have been quoted about 20k to switch to multipoint.

[kevvy]

Got my car fixed yesterday .I forgot to tell members that we went to Toyota and asked them the problem first , they came back with replacement of all the valves and they would have the car for 3 days and a cost of 32000 baht!! Our gas mechanic gave us a number in Angsila chon buri . He said come back in 34 hours and will be fixed . Went went back and he showed me what he fixed , 1 exhaust valve was damaged .The car runs great again ..Cost was ....1000baht!! I tried to give in more but refused to take it . He told me about the wind in my gearbox which I new about and he will put in a change over one for 9000 baht.. His yard was a typical junk yard , had motors everywhere and old cars. He had about 30 cars to fix and a staff of 10.He told my wife in the next yard was all the cars from service centers he fixes for them as they cannot do it .I have never seen a man as honest as this in my life . I would have paid him whatever he ask a long as it was below Toyota price.Oh , Toyota told my wife the had to send the car outside to be fixed . .As you can see the pics , a real junkyard to some , a treasure chest to others.

kevvy

I might only say this, what did he do versus what Toyota was going to do? Sometimes too cheap is just that and you get what you pay for, I'd very dubious for only 1000b that job is, should be much more complicated and costly, did he replace the head gasket? Watch for overheating if not and possible high water usage, water in oil, vice versa, also be mindful of water bubbling up in your catch can, etc. If he only replaced a valve and didn't do the rest properly, good cleaning, plus seats seals etc. you may be doing this again very soon or even replacing an engine. Hard to know without a full description and possibly even some jpegs.

Well , I have to take his word , he changed one valve and valve seat rubbers . Toyota only said they had to change all the valves by just taking it for a test drive and looking inside the engine bay. The week before I took it to Toyota and said there was a problem with the engine , they told me when I picked it up they had changed the park plugs and it is OK ! Been driving it for 3 days now and its has been very hot here and the car is running fine . I seen him had a gasket set for my car. That is all I can do . Trust some people , but the car is running very good. I think I should have seen some problem by now as we drive over 100klms each day. I have checked the oil and water each day as well.Thank you for you advise really appreciate it ...Oh, by the amount of cars there he must be doing something right .

P.S When i left to go shopping I had seen his worker with the top engine apart.

Thanks

Edited April 2, 2014 by kevvy

[WarpSpeed]

No you wouldn't necessarily see a problem by now, there is a host of issues that can pop up at random over time. What you haven't understood is that Toyota sees this all the time, it does not take a good mechanic a long time to diagnose EVERY car, they also properly advised you that you should change ALL the valves and not just the troublesome one, because doing the job a second, third or fourth time or more is not how to do the job properly but for your other mechanic it keeps you coming back.

No matter what 30,000b to 1000b should have raised some red flags, IMO the job was not even half done and, it seems that he probably did not have the seats done and you have a multi-valve engine with all the same valves previously at the same age so it stands to reason, even to a novice that the other valves are probably not far behind the one that failed not to mention now ALL of the valves are out of sync in terms of age. Understand I'm not necessarily defending Toyota here, I've no dog in this fight, I just know from years of experience and doing much of that same work that trouble is looming and overall Toyota's price for the entire job was not that out of order provided they did the entire job which you have not fully explained, when I asked you WHAT was done and WHAT the estimates were for?

You're answer is disjointed, confused and incomplete at best so it seems the best idea next time, would be for you to maybe avail yourself of the wide range of experience here before maybe buying yourself potentially a host of additional future problems and costs.

BTW there is no rubber seals on the valve seats, there is only seals on the valve shafts, the seats are metal against metal that's how they handle the heat and abuse and still seal for years, because of that they need to be properly matched with new seats either grind the head if that's the sort of seat or forced out and new ones pressed in but either way this process, with parts etc. should cost quite a bit more then the equivalent of less than $30 dollars US, maybe not as much as a thousand like Toyota estimated but somewhere well in between. The cam journals should be properly inspected as well as the bearings if it has bearings? This should be done with plasti-gauge and or mic'd. The lifters should be properly adjusted, if it has them? Depending on the car and whether or not they adjust automatically like hydraulic or require shims adjusted or whatever?

The cars in his shop may mean he does a good job or it may mean he does a cheap job and his customers don't care or don't know the difference because he's just also great at BS'ing, (a lot of those there with not too many capable to properly question their BS) or there is no one else locally to do the jobs but not necessarily that he is good at his car repairs, expedient maybe, you make too many blanket assumptions without investigating deeper. Anyway I hope it works out for you in the end and you don't have any more problems with this while you own the car, but I fear that will not be the case. Next time it'd be advisable to come here first and get a wider range of observations from long time mechanics and residents who understand Thailand and autos, that'd be my recommendation..

Do keep an eye on your water and oil, it makes me wonder if they even torqued the head down properly? This is a VERY important step in the process.. Out of curiosity did he give ANY warrantee? Could be mistaken, but quite sure Toyota probably would have in their price.. All things more opinions could help to give you better perspective on to make the right decision BEFORE you're in neck deep.

In closing, I don't agree, NEVER trust anyone, there especially, know what you're talking about, be informed and sound intelligent that's your best deterrent and even THAT doesn't always work so come here and get the knowledge to help you avoid being taken first...

Edited April 2, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[Jessi]

My friend has NGV installed in his 2013 Altis. 100 L tank, when its empty he fills the tank but it only takes 16 to 20 L of NGV. So he is having to fill the tank about every 200K.

Any members know what the problem might be?

Thank you for any advice you can offer.

[WarpSpeed]

Yeah, it's NGV so the mileage is terrible.

[Jessi]

Yeah, it's NGV so the mileage is terrible.

I think you have misread the problem.

It has a 100L tank but it only accepts 16 to 20L on fill up.

[seedy]

My friend has NGV installed in his 2013 Altis. 100 L tank, when its empty he fills the tank but it only takes 16 to 20 L of NGV. So he is having to fill the tank about every 200K.

Any members know what the problem might be?

Thank you for any advice you can offer.

At a guess - fuel gauge is not working correctly.

Also - the tank will have a capacity of 100 litres, but the safe fill point will be less.

On portable LPG bottles you see a TW - stands for tare weight i.e. the weight of the contents. This is never full tank capacity. Tank might be rated for 30 kg but you will fill to the tare weight.

Check the CNG tank - it should be marked as to the total capacity and the capacity at rated pressure.

Never had a NGV vehicle but at a guess - 80% of full.

Edited April 3, 2014 by seedy

[Jessi]

If 80% full, it should take 80L on fill up not 20L I am guessing on this but maybe the computer is sending the wrong message to the tank or gauge, the installer says nothing wrong but this does not seem right.

My car has LPG 50L tank and it takes about 43L when full.

[WarpSpeed]

CNG has approximately 1/3rd the volume of the actual tank capacity allowing for compression and expansion.

[WarpSpeed]

Douplicate post..

Edited April 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[seedy]

If 80% full, it should take 80L on fill up not 20L I am guessing on this but maybe the computer is sending the wrong message to the tank or gauge, the installer says nothing wrong but this does not seem right.

My car has LPG 50L tank and it takes about 43L when full.

At a guess - fuel gauge is not working correctly.

[seedy]

CNG has approximately 1/3rd the volume of the actual tank capacity allowing for compression and expansion.

Thanks. Did not know this.

[WarpSpeed]

Under veeeery high pressure.

Edited April 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[Jessi]

CNG has approximately 1/3rd the volume of the actual tank capacity allowing for compression and expansion.

So your saying that a 100L tank will only hold 33L?

[WarpSpeed]

Yes, approximately.. Needs the volume for expansion, it is under veeery high pressure in order to compress enough into a tank.

CNG's volumetric energy density is estimated to be 42 percent that of liquefied natural gas (because it is not liquefied), and 25 percent that of diesel fuel.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas

Edited April 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[seedy]

3000 - 3600 psi operation pressure

200 - 250 bar