cars with LPG

[Aldebaran1981]

Dear all,

I've seen many cars that are installed with LPG.

DO they really help save fuel costs?

I'm very new to Bangkok. Are there many LPG top up stations in Bangkok?

Can I remove the LPG if I do not want it?
The tanks are bad-ass huge!

[bkkjames]

Not sure they save fuel but its cheaper to fill than petrol/benzene/gasoline.

I wouldn't use an aftermarket kit, only from the manufacturer if I went that route.

Lots of stations around with it.

[VocalNeal]

You have to do a lot of miles/kms to save on the initial installation cost

I have two trucks with LPG. A cheap open loop conversion, like a taxi, costs about 20,000 or less and more expensive closed loop "injection" system cost 35,000 up. No difference in performance or fuel usage.

Tank can be in the spare wheel well under the carpet but then what to do with the spare? If SUV you can mount the spare on the back. Conventional tank takes up 1/3 to half the boot/trunk like it does in a taxi.

LPG is about 13 baht/litre. 45l tank lasts about 250 - 320 km about 1.8 - 2 baht / km in my trucks. Costs about 500 - 600 baht to fill up from "empty".

Spark plugs need to be changed about every 10,000 kms at oil change, if using synthetic oil.

Where you get it fitted depends on where you live?

Lots of LPG stations in BKK and nationwide, more appearing every month. If downtown there is one on Rama IV up from Tesco, on Sukumvit Soi 71 on Rama 9 road, etc. The only place there isn't is on Motorway going to Pattaya and on Eastern outer Ring Road if going up north, but there are lots when you get off those sections.

"I don't want to drive around with a bomb in my car" is the usual comment from the uninitiated who drive around with 45 litre of gasoline under their rear seat

You can send me a PM if you like.

Edited March 24, 2014 by VocalNeal

[Aldebaran1981]

You have to do a lot of miles/kms to save on the initial installation cost

I have two trucks with LPG. A cheap open loop conversion, like a taxi, costs about 20,000 or less and more expensive closed loop "injection" system cost 35,000 up. No difference in performance or fuel usage.

Tank can be in the spare wheel well under the carpet but then what to do with the spare? If SUV you can mount the spare on the back. Conventional tank takes up 1/3 to half the boot/trunk like it does in a taxi.

LPG is about 13 baht/litre. 45l tank lasts about 250 - 320 km about 1.8 - 2 baht / km in my trucks. Costs about 500 - 600 baht to fill up from "empty".

Spark plugs need to be changed about every 10,000 kms at oil change, if using synthetic oil.

Where you get it fitted depends on where you live?

Lots of LPG stations in BKK and nationwide, more appearing every month. If downtown there is one on Rama IV up from Tesco, on Sukumvit Soi 71 on Rama 9 road etc.

"I don't want to drive around with a bomb in my car" is the usual comment from the uninitiated who drive around with 45 litre of gasoline under their rear seat

You can send me a PM if you like.

nice write up.

so I guess it's relatively safe to buy a used car with the "bomb" in the boot?

I can remove it too right?

[VocalNeal]

You can take it out. Easier with an open loop system as when they install a closed loop system they have to drill holes in the inlet manifold for the injectors. Open loop you just need a new rubber hose from the air cleaner to the manifold.

But why take it out unless the boot/trunk space is at a premium? Just use LPG if the car has it fitted.

Normal motherhood stuff about buying used cars applies.

[Aldebaran1981]

You can take it out. Easier with an open loop system as when they install a closed loop system they have to drill holes in the inlet manifold for the injectors. Open loop you just need a new rubber hose from the air cleaner to the manifold.

But why take it out unless the boot/trunk space is at a premium? Just use LPG if the car has it fitted.

Normal motherhood stuff about buying used cars applies.

i'm just not too keen thinking that my boot space is halved! haha

am looking to purchase a used e300ce year 1992.

any comments on this car?

[hansnl]

You have to do a lot of miles/kms to save on the initial installation cost

I have two trucks with LPG. A cheap open loop conversion, like a taxi, costs about 20,000 or less and more expensive closed loop "injection" system cost 35,000 up. No difference in performance or fuel usage.

Tank can be in the spare wheel well under the carpet but then what to do with the spare? If SUV you can mount the spare on the back. Conventional tank takes up 1/3 to half the boot/trunk like it does in a taxi.

LPG is about 13 baht/litre. 45l tank lasts about 250 - 320 km about 1.8 - 2 baht / km in my trucks. Costs about 500 - 600 baht to fill up from "empty".

Spark plugs need to be changed about every 10,000 kms at oil change, if using synthetic oil.

Where you get it fitted depends on where you live?

Lots of LPG stations in BKK and nationwide, more appearing every month. If downtown there is one on Rama IV up from Tesco, on Sukumvit Soi 71 on Rama 9 road etc.

"I don't want to drive around with a bomb in my car" is the usual comment from the uninitiated who drive around with 45 litre of gasoline under their rear seat

You can send me a PM if you like.

nice write up.

so I guess it's relatively safe to buy a used car with the "bomb" in the boot?

I can remove it too right?

A LPG-tank contains Liquified gas, needs to evoparate before it might get dangerous,

The pressure in the tank will be around 10 bar.

The tank is around 20 times more stronger as a petrol tank.

I have seen cars that had accidents, mostly the LPG tank was scratched, sometimes dented, but never exploded.

The inbuild safeties will nearly always, or better said, always close the appendages if something goes wrong with the connections.

If you buy a car with a LPG-installation in it, why should you get it out?

Seen the difference between the prices of petrol and LPG, even a 10-15% higher consumption of LPG makes it way cheaper to drive LPG.

Winning space in the boot, in my view, might be the only reason.

When you take out the tank leave the rest of the installation on place, if you ever sell the car put in the tank again, and mostly the selling price will be somewhat higher, pelple like to buy a car with LPG because it is cheaper to drive.

I have LPG in my car, saved a bundle till now.

Never in my right mind, will I ever install a CNG tank in my car.

In those bastards the pressure can be anything up till 200 bar, and the gas is, well gas.

Due to the high presures in the system, chances for something going wrong are definitely there.

Murphy's law & all.

If you want to change a tank to generate more space in the boot, there now are saddle tanks, smaller tanks that can be twinned and mounted anywhere,

if you want to change your normal tank for a tank that fits in the space for the spare tire, most installers will do exchange.

I hear prices between 4000 and 8000 baht.

Do remember that LPG is a much cleaner fuel, so the oil stays cleaner,

If a car is suitable to drive on 91 petrol/gasohol, it can also drive on LPG.

[seedy]

Mine gets an average of 10.5 liter per 100 km on propane, at 14.76 per liter

13 liter per 100 km on 95, at 44 per liter (the most expensive gas, but it likes it)

No brainer for me.

Am checking out the new MPFI systems, but at 20K I don't know if I will live long enuf to recoup.

Edited March 24, 2014 by seedy

[JAS21]

Mine gets an average of 10.5 liter per 100 km on propane, at 14.76 per liter

13 liter per 100 km on 95, at 44 per liter (the most expensive gas, but it likes it)

No brainer for me.

Am checking out the new MPFI systems, but at 20K I don't know if I will live long enuf to recoup.

The CV of LPG is about 10% less than that of "conventional" petrol. Therefor the usage of LPG would normally be, in ltrs 10% more.

Here is an interesting article http://pttweb2.pttplc.com/webngv/en/kw_df.aspx prices, I believe, are a little outdated.

From the article it appears that the LPG available here is Propane/Butane mix

[namdocmai]

I don't understand why the Thai lpg-tanks have a manual valve at the tank. In Europe we have electric valves who shut off automatic if the ignition is turned off or the fuse blows out.

In case of an accident the gasline might be damaged and if you can't close the tank the gas will be spraying out of the broken line untill it freezes. Very dangerous system.

I see an italian company is growing fast in BKK and they build LPG into cars. I bet they use the electric valves. Those systems have several electric valves.

[WarpSpeed]

They have both a manual and an electric solenoid valve, the manual one you speak of is to fill the tank and should be opened and closed when doing so to prevent leakage in case of an accident and the line in gets severed then it won't leak. They can't operate properly without an automatic solenoid valve as that's what shuts off when you shut off the ignition or the gas would continue to flow while the car is off.

[cheeryble]

You must be aware that hotter running LPG can burn out your valve seats.

This has always stopped me changing.

However just been told that just driving easily can help, and the replacement valve seats at no more than 9000 baht for Suzuki Vitara, so think I will now change should save 4000 a month paying for the 23,000 job in 6months.

Does the 9000 seat change sound right? (Yes, hopefully won't need them)

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Edited March 26, 2014 by cheeryble

[WarpSpeed]

Well I bought a Seat Cordoba with high mileage and LP, don't know how long the LP was in the car prior to my purchase but we owned it almost 2 years and drove it quite a bit in that time. I sold it a little under 2 years ago, the new owner didn't drive it that much as I understand but he has now sold it on due to leaving the country for medical reasons, to my knowledge it's still going strong and it wasn't a young buck when I acquired it. I did give it a proper tuning however which is a large part of the problem there.

[VocalNeal]

You must be aware that hotter running LPG can burn out your valve seats.

This has always stopped me changing.

However just been told that just driving easily can help, and the replacement valve seats at no more than 9000 baht for Suzuki Vitara, so think I will now change should save 4000 a month paying for the 23,000 job in 6months.

Does the 9000 seat change sound right? (Yes, hopefully won't need them)

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When manufacturers make cars they understand that different fuels are used in different countries. Modern valve seat technology is such that I doubt anyone will damage the valve seats.

Is your Vitrara 1.6l or larger? I have a 1.6l Suzuki on LPG. 150,000 kms on LPG and still going.

[cheeryble]

Thanks Neal

Yes standard 1.6 and it's about 14 years old though little used for first four years.

Vitara is now about 240,000km running fine.

I did get a partial engine rebuild after a silly oil channel blockage at 100,000km.....though original valves etc still.

I really enjoyed the extra features on the Isuzu, rear TV, remote locking with flash, slow dim lights, and would love to add them to the Vitara if it was reasonably economical and/or transferable to a future car.

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[namdocmai]

They have both a manual and an electric solenoid valve, the manual one you speak of is to fill the tank and should be opened and closed when doing so to prevent leakage in case of an accident and the line in gets severed then it won't leak. They can't operate properly without an automatic solenoid valve as that's what shuts off when you shut off the ignition or the gas would continue to flow while the car is off.

Well that is a very old system that you are describing. The newer systems have a valve in the tank at the inlet. So in case the gasline between tank and fill-inlet gets damaged then only the gas that is in the pipeline can escape, not the gas out of the tank.

Newer systems don't have a manual valve that you have to open/close everytime you fill the tank. With newer systems i mean systems that are also allready 20 years old in Europe. Also i guess the taxi-drivers will let the manual valve open all the time, to lazy to open/close it every day.

Here you can see the tank without manual valve. Of course Thailand doesn't need the new safety-systems (who are allready 20 years old in Europe).

My wife has a new Altis on CNG. I checked the tank and first it was unaccessable at all, there is a panel to hide the tank. After some engineer removed the panel we could see the tank and i only saw a manual valve. I admit i never studied the CNG gas system that Toyota is selling right now but to not scare my wife i just told her it is a safe CNG-installation. It is guaranteed by Toyota and built by them here in Thailand under patronizing by Japanese inspectors. I couldn't see wether it was the inlet or outlet gasline but i saw the manual valve which is not allowed to have in Europe for LPG.

Anyway This is Thailand. If you want everything as safe as in Europe then you should live there. I built many cars on LPG there and then always had to go to an official authority to approve and test the LPG-installation by the highest standards.

[edwardandtubs]

LPG tanks seem to lower the value of a used car.

[WarpSpeed]

Erm I've no idea what you're talking about? Several times you mention gasoline, LPG is not gasoline.. Now I've no idea what valves you're referring to at this point? There never has been a manual valve to shut off your gasoline. My post stands and it is not an old system either, but like everything it is dependent on your installer and the system you choose plus safeties, though some are required like the one I mentioned above..

The above tank pictured is not installed yet and the manual valve would be coming off the fitting on the right .. I know the fillers are too lazy or disinterested to open and close it that's why I always did it myself for them, it's my safety after all never rely on anyone else for that.

[WarpSpeed]

LPG tanks seem to lower the value of a used car.

Not that I've found.. At least not to an educated consumer.The reasoning is that a used car has already paid for the initial cost of system installation so every fill from that point on is savings to the next owner but that's where the new owner needs to shop and sell the car accordingly when time comes for resale.

Edited March 27, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[kevvy]

We got our LPG in our car nearly 2 years ago and this week we are getting the vave seats done.We clocked up 100,000klm in it since fitting the gas

[WarpSpeed]

How old was the car before you had the gas installed? How many K's? What model/make of vehicle?

[cheeryble]

How old was the car before you had the gas installed? How many K's? What model/make of vehicle?

I'd be interested too.

Was it getting old anyway or was the LPG relevant?

I was in my mechanic's a month ago and started playing with some valves taken out.

They were very sharp around the rims.

He said it was the LPG……but I think it was an old car anyway.

[kevvy]

How old was the car before you had the gas installed? How many K's? What model/make of vehicle?

The car was 3 years old when we got it done , and had 145,000klm on the clock. It is a Toyota vios. We do about 900 klms a week in it now as we travel to work and back each day . (120klm) round rip plus running around .I feel it has been a great to put the gas on . We travel around Thailand alot and we get just over 1 baht 1 klm from it on a long drive .

[kevvy]

How old was the car before you had the gas installed? How many K's? What model/make of vehicle?

I'd be interested too.

Was it getting old anyway or was the LPG relevant?

I was in my mechanic's a month ago and started playing with some valves taken out.

They were very sharp around the rims.

He said it was the LPG……but I think it was an old car anyway.

the car was new when purchased. I had gas in Australia and I wanted it here. Had no problems running the gas. Lost some power but it is only a 4 cylinder and not a thumping v8.We are getting a new car next year and would not hesitate getting gas again.

[Ace of Pop]

I tink its best use for Boiling Rice.My friend ruined his 6 Pot Benz, its cost him a New Engine and a Faceloss at Benz Bkk.

[kevvy]

I had a Jaguar XJ40 in Australia and was running on straight gas ..I lost no performance at all.The Australian government was givid a $2000 rebate for all customers who changed over to gas at the time .I seized the opportunity as thousands of others did as well.

(gas research Australia)http://www.gasresearch.com.au/

When running two different fuels with different octane ratings, you must tune the engine to be able to run without detonation on either fuel. This means that you are always seeing a compromise between the correct tune for each fuel. When running straight gas, you can alter your ignition timing to suit the higher octane fuel, and hence improve power and efficiency. There are a number of other things you can do to improve performance when running straight gas.Extended exhaust duration split timed dual pattern camshafts are recommended for LPG (square timed work well in some performance 4 & 6 cylinders).Seat inserts and bronze guides are always an advantage (whether using petrol or gas) as are large valves and porting for high rev applications. I have had no trouble with gas.As I am sure thousands of other haven't had trouble. At the end of the day everyone to their own.

[WarpSpeed]

I had a Jaguar XJ40 in Australia and was running on straight gas ..I lost no performance at all.The Australian government was givid a $2000 rebate for all customers who changed over to gas at the time .I seized the opportunity as thousands of others did as well.

(gas research Australia)http://www.gasresearch.com.au/

When running two different fuels with different octane ratings, you must tune the engine to be able to run without detonation on either fuel. This means that you are always seeing a compromise between the correct tune for each fuel. When running straight gas, you can alter your ignition timing to suit the higher octane fuel, and hence improve power and efficiency. There are a number of other things you can do to improve performance when running straight gas.Extended exhaust duration split timed dual pattern camshafts are recommended for LPG (square timed work well in some performance 4 & 6 cylinders).Seat inserts and bronze guides are always an advantage (whether using petrol or gas) as are large valves and porting for high rev applications. I have had no trouble with gas.As I am sure thousands of other haven't had trouble. At the end of the day everyone to their own.

Yes, this is exactly what I posted. Most mechanics and installers there don't understand this or just don't care "no need". I always tuned my cars as soon as I got them, tune also includes timing adjust. Made a massive difference in performance and fuel mileage on both fuels, also extended the life of the engine. Had to run the highest grade, non-gasohol petrol this brings your octane rating closer to LPG when the timing is adjusted to the lower octane LPG, but didn't need to fill it nearly as much as the LPG tank probably 3 to 1 ratio. Also used the petrol to cool and lubricate the valves for short periods while running for long distances or long periods of LPG operation in heavy traffic for instance.

The proper system must have the ability to use both fuels for these benefits and to also give you another option to run on until an LPG station can be located if one is not familiar with your location or no LPG stations are local when requiring a refill (takes the panic out), usually some sort of petrol station is always available for you to refill and continue your journey and search while searching for an LPG station.

Edited March 29, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[seedy]

Reason given above is exactly why I run 95 when not on LPG.

[VocalNeal]

when the timing is adjusted to the lower octane LPG,

Please explain why LPG octane is lower than petrol/gasoline. Everywhere I look says it is higher.

Racing fuels, avgas, LPG and alcohol fuels such as methanol may have octane ratings of 110 or significantly higher.

[cheeryble]

LPG does have a higher octane that doesn't mean it delivers more power, it's lighter and delivers less.

That can probably be raised with a higher compression ratio.

I'm considering a conversion but my Vitara has a fairly low CR of 8.9.

This is not optimal as LPG with it's higher octane rating can handle a higher ratio and then benefit from more power output, but also thinking that the lower CR may keep the temperatures down which may be more important by far.....I don't care much about speed, more reliability and economy.

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Edited March 30, 2014 by cheeryble