Losing temper with Thai staff

[madmitch]

Yes, today I committed the ultimate sin of losing it with a staff member in front of others. She also happens to be a family member. I know it causes a major loss of face but I didn't expect the following to happen:

I realised I shouldn't have shouted and asked for a quiet chat, partly to apologise and also to explain why I reacted as I did. Not only would she not speak to me, she took a cushion and just held it over her face so we couldn't even see each other!

Anyone else come across a reaction like this?

Edited March 24, 2014 by madmitch

[LaraC]

Tbh losing your temper at a staff member in front of staff of any nationality and in any country is poor management.
These kinds of things should be done in private whether in Thailand or anywhere else.
Im not surprised she couldnt even look at you.
Im not scolding or trying to bait..i just think shouldnt happen anywhere.
Rather than focus on what happened and her reaction, better to focus on how to amend it.
I wish i had a constructive solution for you, but i havent been in that situation in thailand, so only know how you could handle it if it was a general situation.
If it had happened to me, i would expect a sincere apology for the reaction, even if something i had done warrented your upset at me. I would expect to have the boss state that his/her reaction was unprofessional, and that (whatever i had done) had got the better of them.
I would also expect a show of good relations in front of other staff members to help ease the shame/embarressment/awkward factor.
..but thats what i would expect as a westerner..it may be very different for a Thai. That approach may add insult to injury.
Hope you get some good advice on it. Particularly as she is a family member.

[ukrules]

Do what a Thai would do : fire her with zero pay.

[eldragon]

Totally know the feeling. It seems very uncool to lose it here. But at the same time, Thais can be very forgiving. They understand we're all just human and everyone has their bad days. I suggest rolling with it, rather than making a big deal about an apology. Maybe just a small, private gesture to let your employee know you appreaciate him/her.

[impulse]

Apologize to her in front of the same people you chastised her in front of.

[khunpa]

The cushion over her face is a reaction to show you her shame and avoid more "talk". When that happens... do not talk more or try to explain more. She does it to avoid more talk and has understood your point.

Your reaction is of course not good, but understandable. I have tried the same a few times simply because its easy to go over the top, when you are stressed at work and the staff just keep messing up.

Best thing you can do, is act as normal going forward and try your best to avoid shouting/showing anger, especially in front of others. I normally just do as nothing happened and I am still alive :-)

I would not do any apology in front of the others, since this is just a reminder to her and the other staff of the situation. If you want to apologize, then do it private with her only. Otherwise just act normal.

Edited March 24, 2014 by khunpa

[CharlieH]

Public humiliation is unexcusable ! You are the one who should be fired, you took advantage of the family relationship too by treating her that way.

You need to really look at yourself, more than the staff performance, very poor example you have set them.

[thepool]

You will soon be looking for anew job !

[zeichen]

"Thais can be very forgiving"

Not in my experience.

Just try to go on and do things normally. Don't bring it up but treat her with respect from now on. I wouldn't be surprised if she underperforms for a while. I also wouldn't be surprised if you started having problems with your other staff.

Since she is related it makes it even more difficult.

Chalk it up to lesson learned and do your best to never do something like this again.

[madmitch]

Thank you for the comments, even the scathing ones.

Of course I know I was wrong but I don't think I will fire myself, not just yet anyway. But I think it has shown me that it is time for a break as this is not normally my style, hence the post.

[Hedghog]

I agree with UK rules.

If the transgression deserved dismissal (Dismissed).

Yes I have done it (In Thailand)

One time the whole lot (then closed to rehire )

No problem.

[CharlieH]

Thank you for the comments, even the scathing ones.

Of course I know I was wrong but I don't think I will fire myself, not just yet anyway. But I think it has shown me that it is time for a break as this is not normally my style, hence the post.

You know what they say "half way to solving a problem is recognising you have one", yeah , time for a break mate before you do more permenant damage.

Good luck.

[Jip99]

Apologize to her in front of the same people you chastised her in front of.

I think you are "wrong as you often am"

I think you are judging it from a western perspective/judgement.

khunpa has got it spot on.

[JoeThePoster]

Expat managers should use the carrot and stick approach with local staff. Feed them carrots and let them beat you with the stick.

[GAZZPA]

I have been in similar situation. The big issue here in Thailand is the work ethic is very different from the West and the "face" issue gets in the way. For example, I have worked with people who are underperforming, unfortunately they are in support functions and i do not have authority to replace them. So, the consequences of their underperformance (and there are a few) is poor service to our customers (who are mostly Western) and me constantly apologizing for our lack of efficiency.

So, I have got to the point on the odd occasion where I have lost my temper, but in a professional way not lost it completely. By that I mean I have become much more assertive, perhaps raised my voice a little and came straight out with what I was not happy with. This has caused me major problems, firstly because that person does not improve and does not apologize and move on. In fact the reverse happens, they get worse because now they see me as losing face, so they think it's ok to ignore communications form me.

It is a constant spiral of decline and very difficult to get out of, I am still struggling with some people and I am not sure it will ever go away completely.

The way i got around it in the end is to get another Thai onboard and the big boss. i then send requests through to the team copying the big boss on every single one (something i would never do back home). I have also agreed KPI's for replies to enquiries which has been greed by the boss so if they do not perform I simply send a polite email asking when i am likely to receive an answer and others do the work in applying pressure.

in short, there is no easy answer to this. I am western and therefore biased in this but in my opinion the face issue has no place in a professional working environment. People should be able to be straight, hold their hands up when something goes wrong and air their views in the appropriate way when things do not work well. I find that the Thai way of working is much more about dictating and not enough initiative and free thinking. I truly believe it gets in the way of many things and that it creates a perceived tolerance for poor performance.

Good luck with this. Try and get a local person on board who has respect and authority, otherwise it will get out of control and the locals will see it as a free for all, criticizing the "farrang" for anything and everything you do...

[MidoriApple]

I will disagree for making apology to her in front of the people in that incidence.

Well, as you are the boss, that is your duty to take care of the working environment.

Might be she made the annoyance noisy, lousy stuff, so this made you become crazy and lost your tempered at last.

She deserved the yelling, and if she is not happened to be part of a family, I think you can make warning before getting her fired without payment.
And what that she made reaction later, this is unacceptable really, and immatured.

You have reason to get her on fire.

I am serious! You want to lose staff or you want to lose power of control, up to you.

Only if you are the one who "totally" made mistake, then I agree to make apology to her.

This can be fair as you sign respectful the people under your charge, and you may get more respect from people around.

This is small matter and the way to make apology yourself should be the last choice you choose.

Make your wife or her parents, speak with her to stop this kiddie action.

And she should be the one to make first move, not you.

[kurnell]

Pillow on the face?? Is she 7? Face or not she needs to grow up. In any situation I cannot imagine any of my staff doing this. My wife works for an international company and after doing something stupid she got a blast and she took it on the chin.

[EBlair48]

You tried to apologize and she covered her face with a pillow. Is she autistic? They often need to feel physical pressure to calm themselves.

Oh, she's just Thai - is there a difference?

Why do we do it? why why why why ?

Edited March 24, 2014 by EBlair48

[tingtong]

Right, not right...the boss is the boss, and if has a reason to be upset, has the right to show it...

Love it, or live it...this inst slavery, the staff can decide what to take for the salary...unhappy, they can walk, just the better for you, and firing also makes you look the bad guy.

IMO, if staff member has "face", then quits. And a problem less to you.

As for the pillow, that would be my preferred way, probably. I just hate the idiotistic/stupid/embarrassed/fake smile on the face when clearly in the wrong and pointed out.

Your business, your way, in the end of the day. And yes, you need to keep control, even if you have some casualties once in a while.

Of course, there is the ideal way, the perfect way, the diplomatic way to do things, to please everyone's points, but again, it is your business, your money, your rules too.

[lormakmak]

pillow over the face lol..... give her a special treat and put the cartoon channel on for her and get her some sweeties....

Managing people in the UK is bad enough....sod managing thais who can't/won't be told and do stuff like that^^

sorry got no advice but thanks for the chuckle

[wym]

If you're trying to be serious about growing a successful business, don't crawl with your apology or you'll lose credibility as the boss, velvet glove's OK, but don't forget the iron fist within, just once in front of all, clear the air and move on.

Only give big-face rewards and smiley-boss treatment to the top performers, make sure you fire the bottom-performing 10-20% every year, just to keep fresh blood incoming and keep those in the middle on their toes.

IMO shouldn't mix family at all in the business, not SO's, nor nookie on the side.

Unless it's just an expensive hobby, then do as you like.

[h90]

Thank you for the comments, even the scathing ones.

Of course I know I was wrong but I don't think I will fire myself, not just yet anyway. But I think it has shown me that it is time for a break as this is not normally my style, hence the post.

Don't take it too serious....My wife is shouting at her staff things I would never imagine. Or second biggest competitors owner and manager is feared for his choleric shouting. It is common in Thailand.

Even more in China and in Japan it can happen that the boss even slap his staff.....

So all the peaceful culture thing isn't true.

I never shout and I never loose temper, I think it is poor management. But these who do often get things done faster than I.....

Edit: But we are a technical production company with mostly males and the southern ladies here are more male than most men.....When I hear one of them rising her voice I am going to hide in the bunker.....

Edited March 24, 2014 by h90

[h90]

If you're trying to be serious about growing a successful business, don't crawl with your apology or you'll lose credibility as the boss, velvet glove's OK, but don't forget the iron fist within, just once in front of all, clear the air and move on.

Only give big-face rewards and smiley-boss treatment to the top performers, make sure you fire the bottom-performing 10-20% every year, just to keep fresh blood incoming and keep those in the middle on their toes.

IMO shouldn't mix family at all in the business, not SO's, nor nookie on the side.

Unless it's just an expensive hobby, then do as you like.

Well it is very common in Chinese-Thai companies to have some family members in key positions. It has advantages and disadvantages. But the main reason is trust. Your sister won't cheat you as accounting lady.

Often in Thailand staff doesn't work together, mob each other, building groups until they have a strong boss who is feared......Not my style but I have seen it......

[wym]

Yes Thais and Thai-Chinese do the family thing, but they have a completely different management style that may well work for them but doesn't mix with farang business culture AT ALL, total chalk and cheese.

Stand by what I wrote above for those trying to do things the western way, which is difficult to do in Thailand without them walking all over you.

[seajae]

as we do not know the full story we can only guess so I am taking it for granted that she has been using her "family ties" to you as a get out of work pass or simply not doing her job. If she has got that far under your skin to incite the blow up it is also blatantly obvious that you need to appologize to her, show her the door and tell her not to come back. Not firing her is the worst possible action, she has earned your anger so she is not worthy of being there any more and family or not she has to go, its a business not a play centre and as the boss you need to follow up on it, family simply is not a good reason for giving anyone work if they are not capable of doing it.

Firing her will show the other staff that even family is not enough if you are crap at your job and they will know they need to be thorough in their work, not firing her will lose their respect for you as a boss and may well effect their work as well.

Edited March 24, 2014 by seajae

[MidoriApple]

If you're trying to be serious about growing a successful business, don't crawl with your apology or you'll lose credibility as the boss, velvet glove's OK, but don't forget the iron fist within, just once in front of all, clear the air and move on.

Only give big-face rewards and smiley-boss treatment to the top performers, make sure you fire the bottom-performing 10-20% every year, just to keep fresh blood incoming and keep those in the middle on their toes.

IMO shouldn't mix family at all in the business, not SO's, nor nookie on the side.

Unless it's just an expensive hobby, then do as you like.

Well it is very common in Chinese-Thai companies to have some family members in key positions. It has advantages and disadvantages. But the main reason is trust. Your sister won't cheat you as accounting lady.

Often in Thailand staff doesn't work together, mob each other, building groups until they have a strong boss who is feared......Not my style but I have seen it......

It is common for all Thais, especially when you make little business, work at home,

and Thai wife will bring cousins, daughter of the sisters, son of the brother of the brother..bla..blaa...

let's say the wife's siblings..to come to work altogether..

and this, you as the boss but only one farang at home.... you looked like the boss but in reality you have no power of boss..

IMO, this is unprofessional and I also had this atmosphere before.

Not more, hectic!!

[wym]

As you say lots of variables we don't know. For example, lots of farang are at the beck and call of their SO's family. He may very well not have sufficient REAL authority to fire the family member, the job title notwithstanding.

[khunpa]

To the people not understanding the OP and his reaction, I can only say you have most likely never worked or run a company in South East Asia. It can sometimes be very difficult not to explode in anger and frustration.

Also I think you have never seen when Thai's themselves shout at and fight each other. Thai's can also show frustration and anger in work situations. They are not always just smiling Go-Go girls. Please keep that in mind, before attacking the OP.

The OP exploded for a short moment, which can happen and happens to anyone at some point who is doing business here. I have done business in SEA for nearly 10 years and I sometimes also explode. It just happens and it is normal. People who think otherwise live in a fantasy world.

Some of the worst people you can find as managers, when it comes to shouting and screaming are actually Thai people, with a need to show power. So before you attack the OP, then try it yourself and you will find out.

Look at Thais who have now started beating up monks. Think they can not do stupid things? In fact it is maybe time, that the Thai people start to take their stupid "lose face" excuses and shove it up their xxxxxx! - and grow up!

Edited March 24, 2014 by khunpa

[Water Buffalo]

"she took a cushion and just held it over her face so we couldn't even see each other". My 2 year-old daughter does this when i don't let her eat all the aye-tim she wants. If she would only just say ice-cream...just once .

But seriously, no, i have never seen such a reaction. It is never nice to be spoken to like that in public no matter which culture, but i wouldn't worry too much about it.

One thing about Thai culture is: the nong has to be the nong and the pi has to be the pi . She is only acting this way cos you are related. Lesson learned.

Next time don't work with relatives and scold with a smile on your face. It is the appreciated way.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Water Buffalo

[edwardandtubs]

What a load of guff some posters are speaking. Thai managers often lose their temper with their staff and certainly don't apologise afterwards. He should have taken the cushion away and spoken firmly but fairly with her.

Edited March 24, 2014 by edwardandtubs